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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Democrats Release New Epstein Photos; Trump Dismisses Question On Spiking Health Care Premiums: "Don't Make It Sound So Bad"; Preservation Group Sues To Stop Trump's Ballroom Construction. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 12, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --you can see more of my conversation with Ben Stiller, on a special Sunday night edition of "All There Is," at 09:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
That's all for us. Have a great weekend. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. See you, Monday.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight. New photos showing the extent of Jeffrey Epstein's powerful orbit. Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, and many more.
The House Democrat who released those photos is here with me tonight.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
The Trump Justice Department has one week from tonight to comply with the law, passed by Congress, compelling it to release all the files that it has, related to the late sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein.
But ahead of that deadline for the administration, Congress is providing new insight, this evening, into just how expansive his orbit of rich and powerful friends, actually was. None of the men that you're about to see are accused of wrongdoing. That's important to note.
But Democrats, on the House Oversight Committee, have released these pictures, from Jeffrey Epstein's estate, citing the need for transparency.
One of the images that we got today shows the President, of course, before he was President, in a crowd with Jeffrey Epstein. Another shows him with several women whose faces have been blurred, the committee says, to protect their identities, and that's the case in several of the pictures that we're actually seeing tonight.
There's another image with Trump with another woman, and in these images that are turned over by the Epstein's estate. And there's one also showing Bill Clinton posing with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell at an event. There are several showing Jeffrey Epstein with Steve Bannon, Trump's former chief strategist from his first term in office.
The famous names and faces continue, as we looked through these photos that were released this morning. Woody Allen, Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Larry Summers, all show up. There are tens of thousands more, though, that we are told that have not been released yet by the committee.
Democrats released several throughout the day. Mostly they show rooms and images around Jeffrey Epstein's now-infamous private island.
And in the Oval Office, tonight, the President himself was asked what he thought about these new photos.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I haven't seen it, but, I mean, everybody knew this man. He was all over Palm Beach, he has photos with everybody. I mean, almost -- there are hundreds and hundreds of people that have photos with him. So that's no big deal. I know nothing about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The President moved on to other questions.
But there were also pictures today that were part of this release of novelty condoms, including one that is clearly visible with the President's face on it. You can read for yourself what it says. In these images, total, we got 92 pictures from the Democrats, out of some 95,000 we know that they obtained from Jeffrey Epstein's email account and one of his laptops.
The White House has responded tonight by accusing congressional Democrats of cherry-picking photos to create, what they claim is, a false narrative. I'm going to ask a top Democrat about that in a moment.
But in the meantime, one of the loudest Republican voices on this, issued a warning today, saying that the secret grand jury material that judges have recently cleared for release, they believe, is not going to be enough.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): The grand jury material is just a small fraction of what the DOJ needs to release, because the FBI and DOJ probably has evidence that they chose not to take to the grand jury, because the evidence they're in possession of would implicate other people, not Epstein or Maxwell.
What we want to see are the facts and evidence that the FBI and the DOJ have never given to a grand jury.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Starting us off tonight, my lead source is the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee. Congressman Robert Garcia.
And thank you so much for being here.
Because when you -- when you see these pictures, when you go through them, what do you think the significance is of these images?
REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): Well, I think, first, it's very important that when we receive anything, whether it's from the Epstein estate or other sources, we've got to put it out to the public. This is an investigation that deserves transparency, and the survivors deserve justice.
It's been months and months since we've had a subpoena on these documents. We have, of course, this new law that was bipartisan, that got passed. And yet, the President has not acted on the full release of the files. He could do so tonight and today.
These pictures, of course, just continue to raise additional questions. Some of them are quite, I think, disturbing about the relationships that Jeffrey Epstein had with powerful men.
You'll note that we have said from day one that we don't care who are in these files, what political party they're in, how much wealth they have, who their connections are. We're going to release the information. We're going to hold those that cause harm that, in some cases, abuse and rape women and children, we are going to hold them accountable. We're going to get justice for the survivors.
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And everything that we release just adds and adds more information about who Jeffrey Epstein was, the people that he surrounded him with. And clearly, he had connections to very powerful people.
I want to say one last thing. We also have numerous bank records. And those bank records, we're going through right now, will hopefully also get us a lot more information about the connections between who was paying Jeffrey Epstein, and for what.
COLLINS: Have you learned anything from those bank records yet? Or is it still -- you're still sorting through that?
GARCIA: They're pretty complex records. We're actually working with both the Senate Finance Committee, and also the House Financial Services Committee, right now, to go through all of the documents.
And we have, right now, bank records from two different banks, Deutsche Bank and JPMorgan. We need 20 additional banks to be subpoenaed, and we've asked Republicans -- Chairman Comer to please work with us on a bipartisan subpoena to those banks. So we have yet to hear from him on that. We're glad that two other banks are moving forward.
But we know that we need information from all of those banks, to get the clear financial picture of who was paying Jeffrey Epstein, what individuals, possibly foreign governments-- COLLINS: Yes.
GARCIA: --what large organizations, and was there money laundering or other financial crimes happening throughout this whole process?
COLLINS: One thing that the Republicans on your committee have accused you of, and the White House as well is cherry-picking certain pictures, they say, to form a narrative here.
How did you decide which pictures in the 95,000 that you now have access to, how did you decide which ones to release today?
GARCIA: I think it's interesting that Republicans like to make these arguments, when they have yet to call on President Trump, in a strong way, to release all the files.
They wanted to conceal the files. They wanted to oppose our subpoena. They tried everything they could to stop our vote in the Congress to actually get the files released. And so, every step of the way, Mike Johnson, the Chairman of our committee, James Comer, and Donald Trump, have actually been a part of this massive coverup. So we should be very clear about that.
As far as the photos. We've actually only reviewed about a fourth of the 95,000 photos that were actually sent to us, late last night. And so, as we're going through those photos, we're putting more photos out to the public. We've put out some this morning, some later tonight. We'll continue to put out photos in the days and weeks ahead.
Our goal is to get everything that we can release out to the public. And some of what was sent to us in this documentation is also quite disturbing. So, we have to be very thoughtful and careful about how we protect the survivors, and how we protect the victims of Jeffrey Epstein. That, to us, is the most important thing.
COLLINS: When you say it's disturbing, can you explain why?
GARCIA: What I can say is Jeffrey Epstein was clearly a sick person, a horrible sex trafficker. And so was Ghislaine Maxwell.
Like I said earlier, the photos are disturbing. There are clearly some, many, many photos of women. And those pictures, we have to ensure that we are protecting those survivors. And our hope is to be able to get the information about what is included in the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of photos that have been released by the Epstein estate, some very disturbing of women and their conditions, which we hope to be able to share in the days and weeks ahead.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, wow. I mean, it sounds like you're saying there's potentially images of women being assaulted or in sexual acts.
GARCIA: I think what I would say is that there are very disturbing photos. And there are many of those photos, we have, of not just of the art -- of the island, which you showed earlier, but also of women.
And I think it's something that is concerning to us, because at the end of the day, we are going to protect the identities of the survivors, and we're working with the survivors, very closely, to ensure that we don't reveal information that can be damaging to any of them.
And so, it's incredibly important that we center the survivors, and that we do not release information or materials that puts any of them in any harm's way. It's also important for public transparency, that we do everything we can to push out the information to the public. And so, we are -- we're doing that right now.
And what should happen if we -- and Thomas Massie is right. If we really want to get justice here, the DOJ has to release what they have, because what they have is enormously larger than what we have right now, through the Epstein estate or any other sources.
COLLINS: Well, I wonder about that, because when y'all released the emails, last time, that showed correspondence with people like -- or about Donald Trump, with Ghislaine Maxwell, with Larry Summers. The Deputy Attorney General came out and basically said they didn't have that in their possession. It wasn't really clear why the Justice Department wouldn't have these emails, if no one thought to subpoena them, until your committee did.
But do you actually think the committee has these images from his -- or that the Justice Department has these emails from his estate?
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GARCIA: So, that's actually something that we're not exactly sure.
I mean, first, let's be clear. I don't trust Todd Blanche, the Deputy Attorney General. This is a person that was Donald Trump's former personal lawyer. The way he's treated Ghislaine Maxwell, involved in possibly moving her to a less-secure prison, essentially, where she can roam around, and have pets, and have secret meetings? I mean, that is ridiculous and outrageous. She's a sex trafficker. And so, Todd Blanche needs to be investigated himself for these actions.
Separate of that, whether or not the Department of Justice has the documents the Epstein estate has, he has said that they don't have many of these documents, that may be true. I don't trust everything that Todd Blanche says. But I imagine that the DOJ has some of the documents, but they may not have everything.
And so, we're not gathering information or waiting for the DOJ to send us documents. We're talking to the Epstein estate. We're talking to the Virgin Islands. We're talking to survivors directly and getting testimony. We're bringing in people into our committee and getting information and depositions.
And one last piece. There are hundreds and hundreds of FBI agents who love their country, and are patriots, and that have helped to put together the Epstein files. So, Pam Bondi and Donald Trump need to understand that if they try to hide, redact, or in any way tamper with evidence, there are good Americans out there that are ready to call that out. COLLINS: We'll see. They have one week left to produce those.
Congressman Robert Garcia, the Ranking Member on House Oversight, thank you for joining us tonight.
And here to weigh in as well, Van Jones and Scott Jennings.
And Van, I mean, I just think when you -- when you hear that from Congressman Garcia, saying that there's some really disturbing images in this.
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, they -- their staff has -- their staff has to go through this basically in a raw file, and look through that and put stuff out. I mean, it's created a stir. The Republicans are saying, they're just cherry-picking. But, I mean, I do think it's just disturbing to even see a lot of these pictures.
V. JONES: Well, I think there are two things that are going on here. One is, everybody that's seen this stuff says there's really terrible images here. They're saying that on air. They're saying that off air. Terrible images. And so, I think that, to me, they should be a little bit more patient.
I do think they open themselves up, by putting some out now, some out later. I don't understand the rationale. If it's this serious, I think Democrats would be well-advised. Let's treat -- if it's worse than people thought, dribbling out little party pictures and doing guilt- by-association games, I think, undermines the seriousness and the gravity of what were talked about now.
COLLINS: Well, and Scott, I mean, that was the concern that we -- that's what Marjorie Taylor Greene basically alluded to, when she was asked about the President fighting her, on signing that Epstein discharge petition. She told him she was worried people would get hurt.
Obviously, one thing that Republicans have argued is that people could be unfairly smeared by being included in this. I mean, you saw Richard Branson, a lot of people who are included in these photos today, that have not been accused of wrongdoing, that is incredibly important to note, even for a second time.
But Scott, I wonder what you make of the argument that it's being cherry-picked. I mean, the DOJ could release this theoretically tomorrow.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL, HOST, "THE SCOTT JENNINGS RADIO SHOW" ON SRN: Yes, look, here's what I think. Robert Garcia and the Democrats on Oversight, don't care about justice. They don't care about victims. They don't care about anything except one thing. They care about making the American public think that Donald Trump had something to do with this. What Van said is incredibly accurate. They should be patient. If they cared about victims, and they cared about a narrative of justice, and they cared about that part of it, they would be patient, and they would be measured.
But what did they do today? They released photos that are cherry- picked, by the way, and they throw in an already publicly-released photo of Donald Trump. They blur out the pictures of the women to make you think that these women were underage sex victims. When, in fact, they were very adult. They were at an event. It's already a publicly- released photo. And one of the women said, on the record, Oh, Donald Trump was gentlemanly.
So, what the Democrats are doing here is they're taking a very serious story, in which real people got hurt, by powerful people, all for the purpose of trying to smear Donald Trump. That's what this has always been about. They didn't care about it until now. And what they're doing with these photos is nothing short of outrageous. This is not a story about Trump and Epstein.
V. JONES: Well--
JENNINGS: This is a story about Epstein. But they want it to be about Trump. And I'm just honestly, it is crazy. When you put out photos and digitally alter and redact--
V. JONES: Well--
COLLINS: Yes.
JENNINGS: --the women's faces, you know what you're doing, and it's not right.
COLLINS: Go ahead, Van.
V. JONES: Look, I didn't like a lot of what I saw today, mainly because I think when you're saying you have horrible images, and then you're putting out images that, frankly, are pretty frivolous images, I think it steps on the message.
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But I do think it's important to point out, all of this could go away tomorrow, if Donald Trump just said, Release all of it. And the reason that we're having a -- that you're now at the effect of whatever Democrats want to do, is because Republicans don't want to do anything at all.
And so, I just think we're seeing the worst of the elite class. I think people at home who have faith and confidence that somebody is flying the plane here that has good sense and good judgment have to feel a lot worse about the country today, seeing how much nonsense is going on, both behind closed doors in the past, and now what's happening in the public eye.
But if Republicans don't like what Democrats are doing? There's a solution. Just have Donald Trump release all of it, right now.
COLLINS: Scott, can I ask you? Because when I looked through the pictures today, when we -- CNN -- you can look through them yourselves on CNN.com. They're published there. It's not just that one picture that you're referencing, where there's three women on each side of the President. There's others where they blurred women's faces as well, where Trump's not in the picture.
I mean, they -- I just think -- it made me think back to the DOJ memo from July, when they were saying they weren't going to release anything else. It started all this. And the Justice Department said the images that they had showed videos of victims who are either minors or appear to be minor. I mean, it's obviously hard for them to really discern, at times, in these old pictures, how old the women or the girls are. Right?
JENNINGS: OK. So, if it's hard to discern that, then why are you releasing it? A.
B, as Van just said, many of these pictures are frivolous, publicly- available pictures, or pictures that were taken in public spaces that clearly have nothing to do with the victims, or what happened to them, or the people who perpetrated crimes against them.
They have only one thing to do with, and that's smearing Donald Trump. They have tried to create a narrative that Trump had something to do with Epstein, and all we now know is, is that a lot of Democrats has something to do Epstein, whether it was Summers, or Obama's lawyer who was Epstein's great defender, apparently, or on and on and on and on.
COLLINS: But that's my question for you, Scott.
JENNINGS: But what you're seeing here is the creation of--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Are they -- are they -- I understand what you're saying, that they're trying to do it, to stick it to Trump. But I mean, they're releasing pictures of Bill Clinton and Larry Summers and Democrats too. I think you could make that argument maybe more if it was just pictures of Donald Trump, right?
JENNINGS: Well, look, those guys are already roadkill.
V. JONES: Look--
JENNINGS: I mean, I hate to tell you, but we already know about that and what -- but they continue to stick things about Donald Trump in the middle of these other people for one reason only. There's not a single shred of evidence--
V. JONES: You know what--
JENNINGS: --or any credible allegation that Trump did anything wrong at all, or had anything to do with this. Period.
V. JONES: Well--
JENNINGS: And by the way, he did sign the law, they're going to release the documents on. So, the idea that he doesn't want to release it? He signed it into law, and I assume they're going to release it as soon as they can.
V. JONES: We'll see. Under massive pressure, he did it. We'll see.
COLLINS: Van Jones. Scott Jennings. We're going to bring you back in a little bit. So, stick around.
And up next. The President just is now facing a new lawsuit when it comes to the ballroom that he is building at the White House. Why they are telling him to stop right now on the construction.
Also, his Justice Department has not let the 2020 election go. There's a new effort tonight to seize ballots out of Fulton County, Georgia. I thought we were done with that. We'll talk about that ahead.
Also, health care costs are set to skyrocket for millions of Americans. The President was asked about that inside the Oval Office, this evening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: At the end of this year, those extended Obamacare subsidies expire. What's your message to those 24 million Americans who will see their insurance premiums go up?
TRUMP: Well, don't make it sound so bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, House Republicans have unveiled a new health care package. It does not extend the Obamacare subsidies that are set to expire at the end of the year that we've been talking about so much. It would mean that millions of Americans are going to be on the hook, come January 1st, for skyrocketing premiums, and that's less than three weeks away from now.
And given that timing, and the questions of what Americans should do when they expire, the President was asked about it tonight, and he said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: What's your message to those 24 million Americans who will see their insurance premiums go up?
TRUMP: Well, don't make it sound so bad because, you know, obviously you're a, you know, sycophant for Democrats. You're obviously a provider of bad news for Republicans. Let me just say something. The Republicans, I -- I think I can speak for Tom, and most of the people. I think what most Republicans want to see what -- is what I want to see. And I leave it to them, and hopefully they're going to put great legislation on this desk, right here.
And we want the money to go to the people. They'll go in the form of an insurance account, health care account, or any other form that we can create. We have a lot of different forms. We want to give the money to the people and let the people buy their own great health care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So, this Republican proposal funds a cost-sharing reduction program. It's a move that would lower premiums for some people, while making it more expensive for others.
The bill also includes a provision that makes it easier for businesses to fund their own insurance plans. And as the President noted there, it codifies rules around Health Savings Accounts. It stops short, though, of the broader HSA expansion that the President has been calling for, as he did so again tonight.
If the federal government lets the Obamacare subsidies expire, it's going to be governors who are left with a crisis on their hands. That includes my home state of Alabama, where at least a 130,000 people could lose coverage because they no longer will be able to afford it.
It's one of the issues that has prompted my next source here to launch a bid for governor of Alabama. The former Democratic senator from that state, Doug Jones, is here.
And it's great to have you here, sir.
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Because, I do think it's a real question of what happens to people in Alabama, if, and it seems like when, based on what we're hearing from Washington tonight, what happens, when these subsidies expire.
DOUG JONES, (D) FORMER SENATOR, (D) CANDIDATE FOR ALABAMA GOVERNOR: Well, what happens, Kaitlan, and I -- look, I appreciate you bringing this issue to the attention of so many people.
What happens is that people lose their health care, people lose their coverage, which makes communities unhealthy, which can make -- makes communities sicker, which means businesses suffer, which the economy suffers. It means rural hospitals close even more than we're seeing in Alabama because we've not expanded Medicaid. It's going to be a disaster.
We've already got a couple of hundred thousand people, out of a population of 5 million, that are not insured. And we've got, if we add to that, a 175,000 more? This is going to be a problem for everybody. And look, this is a poor state in Alabama. There are other poor states in Alabama. People need these subsidies. They don't need some savings account somewhere.
They have the option, right now, to use these subsidies to go on the market and get good health care for them and their families. And that's what we need to do. And I wish everybody would just see that, and the Republicans in Congress would go ahead and extend these, for at least another two or three years. Whatever we can do to keep people healthy.
COLLINS: If you're -- you're running for governor. You came out and announced that, made it official tonight. But if you were governor right now, what would you do? Do you form an emergency plan? Or how would you be approaching this expiration date?
D. JONES: Well, look, it's a good question. And the first thing I would have already done, as governor, is I would have expanded Medicaid. I would have given the people in that insurance gap that we've got here in Alabama, the opportunity to get those federal dollars, to get that insurance, and to get that help. We have lost billions of dollars in Alabama. It is one of the main reasons why our rural hospitals are closing at an alarming rate. So yes, we would do that.
But the minute that big, what I call the, anything but beautiful bill, was introduced, I had started calling people to, you know, right then, to say, We need to prepare for the worst.
Alabama's not doing that. I'm not sure that other states are doing that. But we've got to find a way to make sure people continue to get these health care that they deserve, that they have had.
And so, as governor, you've got to make sure that your people remain healthy. And I think you can do that, if you simply get folks in the same room, and talking about the same issues. We don't have that in Alabama, right now, and I'll make sure I'd do it as governor.
COLLINS: You have officially launched now. As you well know, probably everybody watching, a Democrat has not been the governor of Alabama in over quarter century or something. And you went head-to-head against Tommy Tuberville, who is also running for governor. Obviously, that was for the Senate seat, he won by a 60-40 margin.
I was there when you shocked the nation by defeating Roy Moore for the Senate seat before that in 2017. Why do you think that people should expect surprises from Alabama this time?
D. JONES: Because I think the whole world is different right now. I think the United States of America is different.
People are hurting out there right now, Kaitlan. People are seeing their electricity bills skyrocketing. Whether it's datacenters or other things. They're seeing their power bills. They're seeing their health care. They're losing their health care. People are very concerned about what they're seeing coming out of Washington, and what they're seeing coming out of a state like Alabama, which just endorses just about everything coming out of Washington.
Farmers in Alabama have lost markets, their soybeans, to Argentina, at the same time that Tommy Tuberville and the Republicans in Congress go ahead and authorize a $40 billion going to Argentina.
This is different. This was -- 2017 was an amazing year. 2020 was a year that we struggled, obviously, for a lot of reasons, even in COVID. But you know what? I think this is a different era. This is a different time. People are looking for change. People are looking for someone who can bridge the gaps, someone that can work across the aisles.
And if there is one thing, and you know this as well as anybody, Kaitlan, if there is one thing that I can bring to the table, as governor of Alabama, it's being able to work with everybody, to do things that both Republicans, Democrats, and Independents, like to see. There's a big difference now than what we're seeing in 2026 -- going into 2026, that we did not see in 2020.
COLLINS: We will stay tuned to see if that bears out.
Doug Jones, thank you for joining us tonight.
D. JONES: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And up next. When it comes to the President's massive ballroom, he has been full storm ahead -- full steam ahead when it comes to building it. But there's a new lawsuit that is demanding he hit pause on this project. Our legal source is going to see how viable this is, right after this.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump is facing a new lawsuit over his plans to build that big ballroom, after he demolished the East Wing of the White House to do so.
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The National Trust for Historic Preservation, which is a congressionally chartered nonprofit that helps preserve historic buildings, is now suing his administration, saying they need to stop all construction until review boards can weigh in.
Here's what the complaint says that, No president is legally allowed to tear down portions of the White House without any review whatsoever -- not President Trump, not President Joe Biden, and not anyone else. And no president is legally allowed to construct a ballroom on public property without giving the public the opportunity to weigh in. In a statement, in response to this tonight, the White House told CNN that President Trump, they say, has full legal authority to modernize, renovate and beautify the White House -- just like all of his predecessors did.
I want to dig into this with my legal source, Elie Honig, a former federal prosecutor.
And my political sources are back here with us.
And Elie. They basically want them to submit this plan for public review and input before he can proceed.
V. JONES: Right.
COLLINS: Seems like the horse is out of the barn on that front.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Yes.
COLLINS: But what do you say?
HONIG: Look, they already knocked it down.
V. JONES: Yes.
HONIG: So, that's done.
V. JONES: Yes.
HONIG: I'm going to give you a definitive answer. Definitively, I have no idea who's going to win this thing, because we've never seen this, where there's never been a lawsuit, you know, trying to stop Woodrow Wilson from tearing down the White House.
V. JONES: Right.
HONIG: But I want to offer this theory, to put it in context. What's happening with the White House demolition and reconstruction right now, the East Wing, is the perfect physical manifestation of the way Donald Trump approaches executive power.
There are all these laws and regulations that say, Well, you have to get approval from this board and that board, and you have to go through these steps.
Trump says, To hell with you. I'm the chief executive. I do what I want within the executive branch.
Earlier this week, there was an argument in the Supreme Court, about whether Trump could fire the FTC commissioner. Again, there's all these laws passed by Congress, saying, Only in certain circumstances. And Trump says, To hell with you. I'm in charge of the executive branch. I can get rid of executive branch officials. He's going to win that one, by the way. That was very clear from listening to the argument. So this is a little bit different. But again--
COLLINS: So, this one's not clear?
HONIG: It's not clear. We have no way -- anyone who tells you there's a definitive legal answer is either a partisan, or they're guessing, or both. We've not seen anything like this, and we'll be learning as we go.
COLLINS: Van, what do you -- I mean, would you--
V. JONES: Yes.
COLLINS: Would you be in favor of this lawsuit, if it was against a Democratic president then?
V. JONES: I'd be in favor of it against anybody. And part of the reason is they keep trying to sane-wash this stuff. They say, Donald Trump tore down half the White House and is building some gargantuan thing. But Barack Obama put in a basketball court. That's the samesies.
You're like, That's not the samesies. It's like, literally not the samesies.
So, for me, I feel like--
COLLINS: Is samesies a technical legal term?
V. JONES: Samesies is a technical term, on a Friday night, on CNN, so.
HONIG: Samesies.
V. JONES: Yes, so. So, my point of view is this unitary executive fixation, that basically says the President can do whatever the President wants to do.
And it's not just Congress that passes the bills that you're talking about. These are bills signed by Congress -- passed by Congress and signed by presidents, that say, You have to do things a certain way. We have a lawless president, and the Supreme Court is enabling it.
COLLINS: Scott. To Van's point. When the first lady put in a tennis pavilion in 2019, when Trump was in office, she touted, after it was finalized, that they did get approval. She said it was approved by the Commission of Fine Arts and the National Capitol Planning Commission.
If they needed it then, do you think they need approval now?
JENNINGS: Look, I have no idea. But if these lawyers who filed this lawsuit want to come over to the White House, and pick through the rubble, and try to rebuild it, they're welcome to do that, but I think it's going to be a long process.
The bottom line is, you're going to need the SWAT team, the National Guard, and several other layers of Kentucky colonels, and other people, to come, if you're going to think you're going to stop Donald Trump from building that ballroom. I'm just telling you, right now, before he leaves office, that thing is going to be sitting there, legally and procedurally. I don't know how it's all going to play out.
The man intends to build a ballroom, and I don't know what everybody has against it. The existing structure was not big enough for what the President needs to do. This is a much-needed thing for the President, for Washington, D.C.
Look, when he had his inaugural, in the extreme cold, in January, they had to do it in the rotunda. They could have easily done that in something like this. This is a positive thing that he is trying to do for the White House.
V. JONES: Well--
JENNINGS: So how's the paperwork going to go? I don't know. But I promise you, there'll be a ballroom sitting there when he leaves office.
V. JONES: Well, I just think that this is what we often hear from our Republican friends is, I like the outcome, so the process doesn't matter.
That's what happens in an authoritarian country. That's what happens with a dictatorship. It turns out, the process does matter in a democracy, rules matter in democracy, something called rule of law.
And what -- if you want to make America great again? How did America get great in the first place? Rule of law. Free markets. Everybody welcome, if you follow the rules. If you have a lawless country, meaning the executive branch does whatever it wants to? You're on the path to being a banana republic.
So, it's not that people -- maybe this big golden ball thing with golden toilets, I have no idea what he's doing, maybe people will like it. But there's no -- if it's that great, why not follow the rules?
COLLINS: Yes, I think the golden toilet is at the Met here in New York.
HONIG: Was that--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: But actually, Elie--
JENNINGS: You know, why is everybody so definitive--
COLLINS: --to Scott's point, to--
JENNINGS: Hold on. Why is everybody so definitive--
COLLINS: Hold on, Scott. I'm about to say something--
JENNINGS: --that there are rules, like-- COLLINS: --that I too--
[21:40:00]
JENNINGS: --everybody seems to think he's about -- I don't know that they believe that. You might be wrong, Van. You don't know.
COLLINS: To Scott's point though, about this already happening and like, I mean, if you look at the White House--
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: --it looks like a blast zone. When we were coming in from during the pool last week, we pooled on the South Lawn, and there's, like, a major -- there's three major cranes out there. I was told by somebody, they were already giving out bricks from the East Wing demolition to people. I mean, it's just--
HONIG: Right.
COLLINS: --it's already kind of done, basically, I think, is the question.
HONIG: Well, look, Scott's right. We don't know, right? We don't know definitively if this is legal or illegal. There's arguments to be made either way.
But the Trump White House has had a sort of contradictory, odd response to this. Which is, on the one hand, We're going to wait and we're going to see whether we're going to submit for these approvals. On the other hand, they're rebuilding, right? I mean, you're there every day and see that there are cranes moving things around.
What Donald Trump is doing here, though, this is a very old school, bare knuckles, New York City approach to litigation, like, Knock it down first, then what are you going to do? And you hear this expression--
COLLINS: That's a good point.
HONIG: --right, people will say, possession is nine-tenths of the law. And what that means is you can have all the law books you want, and all the theories you want, and all the citations you want. But ultimately, sometimes just the physicality of it, the sheer on the ground reality of it dictates the results.
So, Scott's kind of right when he says, Good luck picking through the rubble. I mean, it's not the genteel approach D.C. insiders are used to, but it's a Manhattan bare-knuckles approach.
COLLINS: See, Scott, you say that you always get beat up on here.
HONIG: I'm here for Scott.
COLLINS: But I said to Scott's point.
JENNINGS: I just want to--
COLLINS: Elie said to Scott's point.
JENNINGS: I just wanted to -- I just want to do what Elie--
COLLINS: And Elie said that you were right.
JENNINGS: --Elie Honig. Elie said, Scott's right.
I just want to note that one time here, who made me happier at CNN. One person said, Scott's right.
HONIG: Broken clock.
JENNINGS: I heard it. I heard you, Elie.
V. JONES: Call Mediaeye (ph). Call Mediaeye (ph).
COLLINS: A nice little Christmas gift for Scott.
JENNINGS: Van, you can join in. If you have to join in here, you can join in.
COLLINS: Great to have you all here. OK. On that note.
V. JONES: No. No, thank you, sir.
COLLINS: Coming up. We're going to fill you in on a story that we've been covering every night, here on CNN, because it has gone from the sidelines to now, the very serious courtroom. Michigan's fired football coach today faced a judge. In this sullen scene that you saw here, prosecutors laying out what exactly led to his arrest. And what he had to say today.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The former Michigan head football coach, Sherrone Moore, who was fired this week, made his first appearance in court today, as he's now facing several charges and, potentially, if convicted, years in jail.
In a moment, symbolizing that dramatic downfall from the pinnacle of college football, we saw Moore appearing by video conference today, at his arraignment hearing, wearing an all-white jumpsuit, at times answering questions with, Yes, Your Honor.
According to the criminal complaint, he is charged with one felony count of home invasion, one count of misdemeanor stalking, and one count of misdemeanor breaking and entering. The judge entered a not- guilty plea on his behalf.
And this comes, after he was fired, Wednesday, for what the school said was an inappropriate relationship with a staffer. And according to prosecutors, that ended on Monday. The woman then went to the school to reveal their relationship.
And during today's hearing, we heard prosecutors talk about what unfolded on Wednesday as Moore was being fired.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATI REZMIERSKI, PROSECUTOR: He then, at some point, soon thereafter, came to her apartment in the address that is alleged in the complaint, barged his way into that apartment, immediately then proceeded to a kitchen drawer, grabbed several butter knives and a pair of kitchen scissors and began to threaten his own life. I'm going to kill myself. I'm going to make you watch. My blood is on your hands. You ruined my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is the criminal defense attorney, Jeremy Saland.
And thank you for being here.
When you heard that these charges, what they were, and also they said more could be added, what was your first takeaway?
JEREMY SALAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FORMER MANHATTAN PROSECUTOR: I said, two things can be true. A woman, or any person, can be a victim of domestic violence, and they need protection. And there're also going to be a situation where somebody is harassing and threatening and to themselves, but it may not be to the extent that he's being charged.
Because when I saw those charges, and I looked at the elements of those crimes, I saw at least for that felony home invasion, I thought that was an overcharge, given the fact that nothing you heard from that prosecutor was, I'm going to attack you, I'm going to stab you. He took the knife, if true, these butter knives, and said, You have my blood potentially on your hands. That scissor to himself. There's a mental health crisis.
Accountability can be true. A crime can be true. But it seems to me, at least right now, from what we know, it may be an overcharge.
COLLINS: OK. So, you think this actually, maybe the prosecutors went a little too far with this?
SALAND: You have--
COLLINS: Based on your initial look reading this--
SALAND: I've worn both hats. I've been a prosecutor, and I'm now a criminal defense attorney. You have to use the law to protect victims. No one should ever question that in terms of that initial charge. And that is fair.
But what we are hearing now, and again from that prosecutor in that courtroom saying, basically, the totality of these circumstances, committed a terrifying situation. No doubt it was, and no doubt there should be an order of protection, and no doubt he should be monitored.
But the question is, now you have a felony where he's facing up to five years in prison, and that's a leverage, and that's some heck of a leverage that the prosecution can use, to force a plea on somebody. So, I think there's a lot moving that we need to learn more.
COLLINS: So some of the conditions for his $25,000 bond, I believe it was? GPS tether monitoring, no contact with the woman, absolutely none, as the judge made clear, and orders not to go to her residence.
What does this look like, as we wait for the next court date, which is January 22nd?
SALAND: So, the court's going to make sure that whatever he has to do as a condition of his release, he's doing. If there is mental health counseling, you cannot miss it. If you leave the State of Michigan, there will be accountability.
If she were to contact him, which she likely would not, but even if she has a complaint and reaches out to him and says, I want to get back together, or don't ever contact me again? He cannot respond to her. He would violate.
In between the next court date, there's likely going to be discussion of discovery, so that the defense can say, Hey, I need this. Or, What does this mean? And challenge what the prosecution is alleging. In that courtroom, the defense said they had not received it yet.
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: Yes.
Jeremy Saland, obviously quite a remarkable development playing out here.
SALAND: It is.
COLLINS: And we'll see what happens next with this case. It's just sad, also, just for his family and everyone involved.
Up next here. We're going to take you back to Washington tonight. What it looked like behind the scenes at the White House as a quite significant week played out, and what's potentially to come.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: A massive bailout for farmers. A dramatic seizure of a Venezuelan oil tanker. And some reality-bending claims on inflation from the White House. Here's a look at what happened behind the scenes in Washington this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: They have a new word. You know, they always have a hoax. The new word is affordability.
[21:55:00]
ON SCREEN TEXT: Monday, December 8.
TRUMP: The Democrats caused the affordability problem, and we're the ones that are fixing it.
BROOKE ROLLINS, AGRICULTURE SECRETARY: It's a little cold out here.
COLLINS: Is this bailout today an acknowledgement that the administration's trade policies are hurting U.S. farmers? And what would you say to U.S. farmers who are worried that China is not going to hold up its end of the agreements that the President was touting?
ROLLINS: There is almost zero evidence, if any evidence, that what they are doing and the challenges that our farm economy is facing in row crops has anything to do with these trade renegotiations.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Tuesday, December 9.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I keep hearing from Republicans anxious about the fact that they worry that Trump seems as out of touch on the economy now, as Biden did in 2023 and 2024.
COLLINS: He is blaming this on President Biden. The problem is that argument obviously has a shelf life with voters. This is something that you can't really deny, because the people can feel it.
TRUMP: They gave you the highest inflation in history, and we're bringing those prices down rapidly. Lower prices. Bigger paychecks.
COLLINS: The President gives himself an A-plus-plus-plus-plus-plus. That's five pluses on the economy. What grade do you give him?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Well, Kaitlan, if this is an A-plus-plus- plus economy, God help us if we ever get to a B or a C.
COLLINS: You were involved in an incident at the Charleston airport, back in October. There was an internal police investigation report that came out.
The police quote you in this report as you calling them effing idiots and effing incompetent, while stating that you're an effing representative.
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): I mean, no, I didn't -- I've never called a cop an idiot. That is a remarkably false statement--
COLLINS: But you're saying these police officers are lying then who spoke to the investigators--
MACE: I -- I am absolutely saying that that report was falsified, a 100 percent fictitious.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Wednesday, December 10.
TRUMP: We've just seized a tanker on the coast of Venezuela.
It was seized for very good reason.
COLLINS: A significant escalation in President Trump's efforts to put the squeeze on a tyrant. Specifically, the Venezuelan dictator, Nicolas Maduro.
One question some people might have tonight is, how seizing an oil tanker helps stop the flow of drugs into the U.S. What would you say to that?
SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): I think it just raises even more questions about what is this mission about.
Here we have the seizure of an oil tanker. Is it about drugs? Is it about the seizing of oil? Is it about regime change? Why exactly have we deployed so many of our troops?
ON SCREEN TEXT: Thursday, December 11.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Hello, everybody.
COLLINS: If the economy is as strong, as the President has said, it is, then why is he telling parents, two weeks before Christmas, that they should only buy two or three dolls for their children?
LEAVITT: What the President is saying is that if we want products made right here in America, which is a large part of the reason the President has effectively implemented tariffs, maybe you'll pay $1 or $2 more, but you will get better quality, and you'll be supporting your fellow Americans.
COLLINS: Inflation is about where it was a year ago, as you know, and grocery prices have been up. So, we've covered the economy, but there's mixed signals in terms of what that looks like.
LEAVITT: Inflation is down from where it was. As measured by the overall CPI, it has slowed to an average 2.5 percent pace. This is down from what the President inherited--
COLLINS: It's down from where it was at highs at 9 percent, but it's at about 3 percent.
LEAVITT: The President inherited 2.9 percent in January. Today, it's at about 2.5 percent. So we're trending in the right direction.
COLLINS: When it comes to the numbers themselves, as CNN's Daniel Dale highlights tonight, of where we stand right now, the year-over-year inflation rate in January, when President Trump returned to Office, was 3 percent.
In September, the most recent month for which the Consumer Price Index figures were released, the rate was also 3 percent.
Do you think the White House should learn from the mistakes that the Biden administration made, which was telling voters how to feel about the economy, without actually registering how they feel about the economy?
REP. DAN GOLDMAN (D-NY): Well, it's even way, way worse than any of the concerns you could raise about President Biden. Because Donald Trump is just literally lying to people about their own wallets.
The President is so out of touch with everyday Americans that the idea that he would talk down to people and just say, Oh, everything is fine, Just buy fewer presents, is absurd.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And that was behind the scenes, this week, at the White House.
A quick programming note here from us. This Sunday, Roy Wood Jr. is going to host a holiday special for the whole family. It includes music from The United States Air Force Band, Jessie James Decker, comedy, of course, from Roy himself, Craig Robinson, and much more.
"Roy Wood Jr.'s Very Very Very Merry Holiday Special" is going to air this Sunday, 08:00 p.m. Eastern, here on CNN. You can also watch it in the CNN app.
Thanks so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
[22:00:00]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST, CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP: Tonight. Donald Trump's handpicked RNC chair predicts doom is coming, as new cracks emerge in the President's armor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): He is not a lame duck. He's the most powerful president of this generation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Plus, new pictures from Jeffrey Epstein's estate drop shows his world was both secret and bipartisan.
