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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene Set To Leave Congress At Midnight; Maduro Pleads Not Guilty To U.S. Drug Trafficking Charges; MN Gov. Walz Ends Reelection Bid Amid Welfare Fraud Scandal. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 05, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, here in Doral, there have been tears and cheers. But Venezuelans told us here that for the first time in so many years, they finally have hope. Although they are very disappointed and angry that Maduro's Vice President, now the President of Venezuela, remains in place. They say, that feels like sidelining the opposition leader, it feels like a slap in the face to many of the Venezuelans here.
And I did ask them if any of them do plan to return home, or visit, and they said that even with Maduro out of power, Anderson, it just does not feel safe enough for them to do so.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yes, the rest of the regime still in place.
Randi Kaye, thank you.
We'll have more tomorrow.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: After capturing Venezuela's leader, President Trump says he's in charge now that MAGA has his back. But what does outgoing Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene have to say about all this?
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
As we come on the air tonight, there is gunfire that can be heard in the Venezuelan capitol of Caracas, where lights from drones and anti- aircraft fire have been seen near the presidential palace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(VIDEO - GUNFIRE HEARD NEAR VENEZUELAN PRESIDENTIAL PALACE IN CARACAS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It's not clear yet what the implications are of this. We're going to continue to monitor this throughout the hour tonight, and we'll bring you any updates here live.
This is all coming though as here in Washington, there are conflicting messages about who is actually in charge in Venezuela after that successful mission to capture its leader. Nicolas Maduro is being held in a New York City jail cell tonight, following his outburst in federal court today, in which the deposed dictator insisted that he is still the president.
This is coming as Maduro's Vice President was sworn in as the interim leader today. But that apparently doesn't mean that she's in charge either.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: There's going to be some posturing that occurs when a nation has been so thoroughly defeated in this way.
The United States of America.
The United States of America is running Venezuela. By definition, that's true.
By definition, we are in charge, because we have the United States military stationed outside.
So, the United States is in charge. The United States is running the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I caught up with the Deputy Chief of Staff, Stephen Miller, after that interview with my colleague, Jake Tapper, today, where he argued, during that interview, that the U.S., by definition, is running Venezuela.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Stephen, you were part of that group, the select group that the President said is, his staff that is running Venezuela. What exactly are your day-to-day responsibilities?
MILLER: The President of the United States has asked Secretary Rubio, who also happens to be his National Security Advisor, to directly, of course, under the President's close guidance and direction, to be the lead on this process.
But obviously, there's many other elements involved. You have energy policy, Treasury policy, financial policy, military policy. So, it's a big team, a group of people. Everybody is working great and closely together, under President Trump's leadership.
COLLINS: But what are you specifically doing? What are you specifically doing?
MILLER: I make a habit for not to talk too much about myself. I'm just happy to serve on this incredible team on behalf of President Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: So who is ultimately in charge? The President himself offered a one-word answer to NBC's Kristen Welker, this evening, in his words, quote, "Me."
This is how the Secretary of State, though, who you just heard Stephen Miller name, as the point person on Venezuela, this is how he is framing things.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: It's not running the -- it's running policy -- the policy with regards to this. We want Venezuela to move in a certain direction because not only do we think it's good for the people of Venezuela, it's in our national interest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: On Capitol Hill today, here in Washington, lawmakers, including the top Republican in the Senate, spent the day trying to sort out what exactly is going on. There was a classified briefing, actually, that lasted for hours, this evening, by those top officials. And the questions are not -- when it comes to what's next, are not just limited to Venezuela, who's running it, and what the future of that country is going to look like.
We've also heard the President threatening several other nations, just in the last 48 hours alone. Compare what he's been saying lately, in the last few days, about foreign interventions, to the kinds of things he's said previously when it comes to the campaign trail, and as he was running for office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Colombia is very sick too, run by a sick man who likes making cocaine and selling it to the United States. And he's not going to be doing it very long, let me tell you.
We believe that the job of the United States military is not to wage endless regime change wars.
[21:05:00]
You have to do something with Mexico. Mexico has to get their act together. Because they're pouring through Mexico, and we're going to have to do something.
The cartels are running Mexico. Whether you like it or not. It's not nice to say, but the cartels, the cartels are running Mexico.
We will stop racing to topple foreign -- and you understand this, foreign regimes that we know nothing about, that we shouldn't be involved with.
REPORTER: There's been protesters killed in Iran.
TRUMP: If they start killing people, like they have in the past, I think they're going to get hit very hard by the United States.
Regime change in Iraq, regime change in Libya, regime change in Syria, and every other globalist disaster for half a century.
We need Greenland, from the standpoint of national security, and Denmark is not going to be able to do it.
We're getting out of the nation-building business, and instead focusing on creating stability in the world.
The American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be questioned again.
Stupid foreign wars in countries that you've never heard of. This Tuesday is your chance to stand up and declare that you're not going to take it anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My first source tonight joins me on what will be her last night as a member of Congress. Georgia representative, Marjorie Taylor Greene, is here.
And thank you so much for being here.
We heard from the President today when it comes to what's next for Venezuela, and just defending this decision overall. He told NBC News, quote, "MAGA loves it. MAGA loves what I'm doing. MAGA loves everything I do. MAGA is me."
You voted for this President three times. Is this what you voted for?
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Not only did I vote for the President three times, I was one of the few Republicans that stood by him, early on, when the rest of the Republicans turned their back on him.
I also campaigned all over the country for him, and attended many of those rallies, where the campaign promises were no more foreign wars, no more regime change, and putting the American people first. Kaitlan, those were the things that I believe on, and have stood on, in principle. Not only in principle, but by actions as well.
I never voted to fund Ukraine. I never voted to fund any of the foreign wars. And I worked hard to get rid of foreign aid and funding foreign governments and foreign people. That's what I believe in. However, it is concerning to see what's happening and the direction that the Trump administration is moving in.
We can say, thankfully, that Maduro has been arrested. We can say we're happy for the Venezuelan people. But we can also look to all the regime changes before, in Iraq, and Libya, and Syria, and we said the same things for the people of those countries.
But then, we watched those countries fall into turmoil and civil war, and we watched the rise of ISIS and terrorism, and we watched U.S. troops remain in those countries for a very long time, and many flag- draped coffins come home, and that's what many Americans don't want to see happen.
And tonight, it is disturbing to see the latest news coming out of Venezuela, where there is chaos and possibly some sort of civil war or sort of chaos and disruption happening. And I -- you know, we care about people, but we care about our country too, Kaitlan.
And to me, America First is what matters most, and the American people matter most. And I believe the focus should be strong domestic policy, to help Americans afford life, afford health care, health insurance, be able to buy a home, an affordable home, and live the American dream.
And so, I unapologetically support America First. And as an American, it's OK to disagree with the President that I helped get elected, and it's OK to disagree with other Americans. But what's not OK is for our government to put their full focus on foreign countries.
COLLINS: Do you think that Marco Rubio, Stephen Miller, Pete Hegseth, and JD Vance should be running Venezuela, as the President puts it?
TAYLOR GREENE: I would like to see our elected President and Vice President and his administration running America. I think that's most important for the American people and our interest.
And we have real problems here at home. We're nearly $40 trillion in debt. They've done a great job stabilizing inflation, that was record high under the Biden administration. They've done a wonderful job securing the border. And I love seeing the crime statistics go down.
But I would like to see a continued focus on domestic policy that helps the American people. That's the country that they are supposed to be running, and I hope the United States of America is the country they stay focused on running.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: The White House is arguing they can do both, basically, that they can deal with what's happening in Venezuela, and also address those other campaign promises.
Do you see it that way if there's not really a clear plan that's been laid out, at least so far, for what happens next in Venezuela?
TAYLOR GREENE: Again, from an America First standpoint, Kaitlan, Venezuela belongs to the Venezuelan people, and they should -- they should elect their own government leaders.
We have elected our government leaders, the Trump administration, and we have elected them to run America. Not to be globalist. Not to run other countries. Not to pursue regime change and foreign wars. We very much need our government and our government leaders to focus on the American people and the issues that we care about on Main Street, USA.
COLLINS: It sounds like you think the President is breaking a campaign promise.
TAYLOR GREENE: I know the campaign promises that I made, Kaitlan, and that's America First. And I've stuck with those. I've said, No more foreign wars, no regime change. That's why I always voted against it, and never voted to fund any of the foreign wars. That's why I'm able to say, I don't think this is a good thing.
Of course, of course, we want the people of Venezuela to have freedoms, and we want them to have a good, stable government. And of course, Maduro is a bad guy. And administrations in the past, the Biden administration, before that, all were putting out bounties on his head.
Of course, I can say, killing Americans with illegal drugs is bad, and I'm fully against it, and that's why I impeached Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas. Those were my articles of impeachment that passed the House.
So, I can have all of those views, and at the same time say, I very much want our American President and his administration to focus on America First.
COLLINS: You have been very outspoken as a member of Congress. As of tomorrow morning, you're no longer going to be a member of Congress. How do you -- how do you plan to hold a role, if you're no longer in that position of power? What do you think that looks like for you, going forward?
TAYLOR GREENE: Well, thankfully, I get to be an American citizen, just like I was before I became a member of Congress.
Before I became a member of Congress, in January of 2021, I had never held any political position. I was just a business owner, raised three kids, and enjoyed American life. And thankfully, that's something that I'll be able to enjoy once again. And being an American is such a privilege. We have such great freedoms and rights, and I'll use my voice to always, always defend those.
But I've thankfully held the job title, Representative, Kaitlan, and I think the job title speaks everything for the job. And so, it's my hopes that whoever is the next Representative, for the great 14th District of Georgia, will take that job title seriously, because I think that's something that's lost in Washington, D.C.
Everyone goes to Washington, and they get lost in all the special causes, and the lobbyists in the hallways, and the foreign interests, and the committees, and they lose sight of the people back at home. And I never lost sight of the people back at home. They always were number one to me, and I really enjoyed going home as much as possible.
So, Kaitlan, I'm very thankful that I get to spend more time with my family and friends, and hold the very proud title of U.S. citizen.
COLLINS: Well, two of the biggest things you've spoken about as in your last few weeks and months, as a Representative, was Jeffrey Epstein and how the Justice Department has handled that, and also health care. We heard from your colleague, AOC, who was saying, she believed the Venezuela move is about oil and regime change, and she said, quote, "They need a trial now to pretend that it isn't. Especially to distract from Epstein + skyrocketing healthcare costs."
Is that something that you agree with?
TAYLOR GREENE: I wouldn't say that it's meant to be a distraction. I think those are all separate issues. So no, I don't necessarily agree with what she said.
I signed my name on the discharge petition, to release the Epstein files, because I fully stand with women who were raped as teenagers. And releasing those files was a campaign promise. That was something that MAGA voted for, and the American people across political spectrums believe in and overwhelmingly demanded. So, I'll never apologize for that, even though the President called me a traitor for standing with those victims.
[21:15:00]
I think that health care is a separate issue, and it's extremely important. The Democrats created Obamacare, and they passed the ACA tax credits. I didn't vote for those. And that has driven the costs of health care and health insurance to be unaffordable for many Americans.
And it is a serious issue. And that's why I have pushed hard on my own party and the Speaker of the House, because Republicans have never -- had never presented an alternative plan, even though Mike Johnson said over and over again that he would have one, on day one. And I think that's a complete failure to the American people. It's a serious issue, and Republicans can't dismiss it.
But another serious issue is regime change and foreign wars, and I really hope to see that the American people push back and say, Let's focus on the United States of America, Mr. President, because that's what the American people deserve.
COLLINS: On the Jeffrey Epstein release. We still haven't seen the administration fully comply with the law that Congress passed to release all of those files. They say they're still going through millions of them, that it could take maybe until the end of January. It's not really clear.
Do you trust that they will ultimately release everything they are legally required to put out there?
TAYLOR GREENE: At this point, Kaitlan, after serving under the Biden administration, and now under Republican Trump administration, many things in Washington stay the same, no matter who is in charge, and I think that's something that most Americans have come to realize. So, I won't trust anything happens until I actually see it happen with my own eyes.
But I certainly hope for the women that were victimized by Jeffrey Epstein, and other rich, powerful, elite men, I hope for them that the files do get released, and they are the ones that will know when it happens.
COLLINS: Do you have a parting message for your fellow lawmakers, here in Washington, namely, Republicans, your party?
TAYLOR GREENE: My parting message for everyone is that we really need to join together and put America first. I'm one that has been vocal about being very tired of the toxic nature of politics, because the division is causing us more problems. It isn't fixing any of our problems.
So, what I would say is, I would encourage all lawmakers to look within themselves, examine their job title, which is Representative, and work together to do good for the American people. Because, it's the American people that elects them, it's the American people that pay taxes, that pay for our government, and it's the American people that they swear an oath to serve. And so, that would be my parting message for lawmakers.
But my parting message would be for my district, Kaitlan. And that's thank you for the honor of the lifetime, allowing me to serve them in the 14th district.
COLLINS: And have you made any decisions about whether you will run and seek higher office?
TAYLOR GREENE: I've been asked that over and over again, and I've said it over and over again, no, I have no plans to run for any other political seat at this time.
You know, politics has not been a safe place for me. Today, on my last day in office, we received another death threat on my life, and had to talk with Capitol Police about that, and it's extremely unfortunate.
And you know, it's something that I've brought up over and over again, how many death threats that I've had, not only on myself, but also on my family, swatting, pipe bomb threats, and so many more things. And I've brought that up, because it's extremely important to talk about. Serving in Congress, or serving the American people, in any capacity, whether it's local, state or federal level, should not come at such a high cost.
COLLINS: Yes.
Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, thank you for joining us tonight.
TAYLOR GREENE: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And up next. Emboldened by that daring mission that we saw in Venezuela, the President is now making threats against other countries.
And also, what comes next for Nicolas Maduro and his wife after their not-guilty pleas inside court today. We'll speak to our legal sources, next.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: A remarkable scene played out in Downtown Manhattan today, as the deposed Venezuelan leader, Nicolas Maduro, and his wife, Cilia Flores, arrived for their first hearing at a federal courthouse.
The two defendants who were both wearing headphones for translation during this hearing, pleaded not guilty before a federal judge to that sprawling federal indictment that included charges of narco-terrorism, cocaine trafficking, and gun crimes.
And as he professed his innocence, Maduro actually accused the Trump administration of illegally abducting him from his house. And as the judge tried to cut him off when he was speaking at length, Maduro declared to the courtroom, quote, I am still the president of my country.
My legal sources are here tonight. And they are:
The former Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, and CNN Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig.
As well as the jury consultant, and defense attorney, Renato Stabile, whose client is the ex-Honduran President, Juan Orlando Hernandez, that was pardoned by President Trump last month. So, it's great to have your expertise here, Renato, on that front.
Elie, let me start with you, though, because both of the -- Maduro and his wife pled not guilty. Not surprising, obviously, we were expecting that. But when it comes to your old office, the SDNY, what is this going to look like next for them?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Now they have to prove their case.
And there's a really important point I want to make about this indictment, Kaitlan. This indictment alleges very serious charges. It paints a compelling narrative. But we have no idea, sitting here today, based on the indictment, how strong the actual evidence is.
[21:25:00]
Sometimes you'll get an indictment, and prosecutors will say, We intercepted a text message in which the defendant said, quote, Whatever. We picked off a phone call, wiretap. He said this. We did a search warrant on his home and recovered drugs. We did a traffic stop and he had a gun in his console, et cetera.
There is no indication in this indictment of how they're going to prove this story. Now, prosecutors don't have to give us that. But if you have the proof, and you want to tell the world we have the proof? You put it in there. So, I'm not doubting they have the proof. I'm just saying, how they're going to prove their case is the biggest question going forward.
The way you typically do it, when you're talking about a hierarchical organization or enterprise like this is, you have to flip people from the middle ranks, flip them, cooperate them, get them to testify up.
You and I discussed the other night. There was a co-defendant, another politician from Venezuela who pled guilty in June--
COLLINS: But--
HONIG: Not been sentenced yet. And no sentencing date, which, to me, is a red flag of that person is likely cooperating. That's how they're going to have to build this case.
COLLINS: Yes.
But Renato, just on the scene overall that played out inside that courtroom today. I mean, Maduro was basically trying to make his case, which is not something you typically see during an initial court appearance. I guess you tell me, because you've done this way more than I have. I wonder what you made of what we saw playing out inside that room today.
RENATO STABILE, JURY CONSULTANT & LAWYER, REPRESENTED EX-HONDURAS PRESIDENT HERNANDEZ: Look, he is the president, or, as the United States says, the de facto president of a foreign country. He is, I think, going to be a handful to control, and we've seen just a little bit of that today.
I'm going to make a bold prediction right now. If this case goes to trial, he will insist on testifying on his own behalf. He's going to be running that defense. And look, I think people who have experience representing President Trump probably experienced some of that when he was running his cases.
I experienced a little bit with that, with President Hernandez. He was insistent on testifying on his own behalf, and I was fine with that decision. And I came to understand it, even though, at the time, I disagreed with it. As the former head of state, he felt an obligation to not sit there, and have these drug dealers and murderers, in his view, lie about them. And I believe they were lying about them. And he had to stand up and say something. And I think Nicolas Maduro is going to very much feel the same way.
COLLINS: Yes. And of course, JOH, as he's been called, testified. Was convicted, obviously, before being ultimately pardoned by the President.
And Elie, watching all this play out, one thing that has stood out to me. And if we could show those images again, of basically this perp walk that is happening, where Maduro is being transported around New York City in motorcades, in chopper rides. We were watching this play out live on the air, Saturday night, as he was being taken to Manhattan and then taken to Brooklyn, where you're staying.
Is this typical? I mean, just seeing this in and of itself seems wild. HONIG: Not only is it not typical, Kaitlan, it's actually against DOJ's established policy. If you look at the Justice Manual, which is the guidebook for federal prosecutors, it says, We don't do perp walks, we don't parade people in front of the cameras, because it could be prejudicial to their interests. So clearly, DOJ, the administration, is trying to make a statement here.
Renato makes a really interesting point. When this case goes to trial, and I believe it will, this will be a circus. And the challenge for this judge, Alvin Hellerstein, is going to be to control his courtroom. I've tried cases in front of him. I've been on the receiving end of a couple tongue-lashings from him. This is a guy who will control his courtroom. Maduro may act up, he may say things that he's not asked about. But Judge Hellerstein is not going to have that.
COLLINS: Renato, do you have any advice on that, given your past representation?
STABILE: Look, what I would say is obviously this case and the JOH case are different than all other cases.
The trial really started on Saturday. I mean, they really have to get out there. All the arguments about, This is a political prosecution, this is targeted at oil? Those things are not coming in front of the jury.
So, if the defense is going to advance that narrative, the trial started Saturday, they need to get out there, and they need to start telling their story right away, so that the jurors who are in the district start to hear it. I'm not saying that you should try and mess with the jury. But look, the DOJ is out there telling their story. The defense needs to counter.
COLLINS: Well, Elie, you made a really interesting point earlier. You were in my office right before we came on air. This actually didn't even have to go to federal court. There were other options that you say the administration had here.
HONIG: I think the decision by the administration to bring this case into a civilian criminal court, in Manhattan, was the exact right decision. There's other ways they could have done this. They could have sent it to a military tribunal. They could have tried to send him to the Hague, anything along those lines.
There was a very similar debate, after 9/11, about what do we do with our enemy combatants. Briefly, there was a decision made, We're going to try them in civilian federal court. That was then reversed during the Obama administration, and we regretted it, because we went 25 years without closure, without decisions, without fairness for the victims.
So, I think the administration has made a bold choice here, to bring Maduro into criminal courts, and the right choice.
COLLINS: Elie Honig. Renato Stabile. Great to have both of you here tonight, especially given your expertise. Up next. We're going to speak to my political sources.
As tonight, we're following not only the reaction to this remarkable capture in Venezuela, and what comes next.
Also, the Minnesota Governor, Tim Walz, ended his reelection bid today. Here is why he said he's dropping out.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, the American people are narrowly split when it comes to President Trump's military operation that captured the now-ousted Venezuela president, Nicolas Maduro, over the weekend.
According to a new Washington Post poll, you can see here, 40 percent of Americans approve of the U.S. sending military forces into Venezuela, while 42 percent say they disapprove.
[21:35:00]
And when it comes to congressional approval, a 63 percent majority say the operation should have required approval from Congress. But there are 37 percent who believe it was appropriate for the President to order the operation, as he said he did on his own, without telling Congress ahead of time.
My political sources tonight are:
CNN Political Commentator, and Democratic strategist, Paul Begala.
And Senior CNN Political Commentator, and Republican strategist, David Urban.
And David, in that same poll, when you're looking at this, there are 94 percent of Americans who say they think it's the Venezuelan people, not the United States, that should decide who is leading Venezuela in the future.
When you see that, and you see the U.S. kind of -- kind -- not kind of, really putting their own emphasis on who they believe should be up in charge next, what do you make of that?
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Yes, so Kaitlan, I think those numbers are all -- all over the map. Look, 42 percent of Americans -- you poll 42 percent of people, they hate Donald Trump. They don't care -- Donald Trump could solve -- cure cancer tonight, and 42 percent of the people would be opposed to it. So, I don't think those numbers are too serious.
COLLINS: OK. I don't think that's true.
URBAN: Well, I do -- I do. 42 percent oppose Donald Trump no matter what he does. So, listen, I think the Venezuelan people are better off tonight. I think the world's a better place. I think South America, Central America, the 9 million Venezuelans who fled their country, are -- everybody's far better off, with Maduro being out of power and in prison.
I think the Trump administration rightfully is trying to hold the country in place and make sure there's some orderly transfer of power. There will be elections. At some point, they're going to have a government in place.
I mean, you -- remember what the Bush administration did in Iraq. They disbanded lots of the Ba'ath Party which was running -- which was loyal to Saddam Hussein, but which ran the country, and then the country fell apart.
And so, I think they're learning that -- they learned their lessons rightfully, and things that happened in the past, and leaving people with infrastructure in place. I think they'll toe the line. They will -- they will have elections, at a certain point when it -- when it needs to be done. And the Venezuela people will determine their own -- their own fate at that point in time.
Listen, I don't think Venezuelans can have an election tomorrow or the next two weeks. It's going to take a little bit of time. And so, I think the United States government is doing exactly what needs to be done. The Trump administration is conducting themselves properly in this case, to make sure the state doesn't fall apart and collapse.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, Venezuela, to--
URBAN: So, 42 percent of people, they're just -- they're just wrong.
COLLINS: But to be clear, they have elections. They're just rigged by -- they've been rigged by Maduro and his people.
URBAN: Well, and--
COLLINS: I mean, that's still the regime, it's Maduro's people who are in place, Paul. And so, I do think that's the question of what that looks like going forward.
But if the administration, as they -- as we've been hearing from Stephen Miller and Marco Rubio, are arguing that Venezuelans will have more freedom, they'll be wealthier, they'll have better lives as a result of this? What do you say to that?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Who cares? I mean, I care. Urban cares. He's a good person. You're a good person. I'm telling you, voters out there--
URBAN: Thanks, Paul.
BEGALA: --I don't see anybody, at a Trump rally, wearing a hat, saying, Make Venezuela Great Again. OK? The argument here, these things don't age well. I'm old enough to remember when George Bush Sr. captured Noriega out of Panama, brought him home. That was in January of 1990. In November 1990, he lost seats in the House and the Senate. OK? These things don't age well, because Americans don't want to be wrapped up in these forever wars. If there's anything that Trump talked about in foreign policy, it was just that.
And it's the sense that Democrats' argument needs to be about misplaced priorities. Not what some of them are saying now, Oh, it's illegal. Because I don't know if it is. What it is, is putting Venezuela ahead of America. Why is he so concerned about oil in Venezuela and not hospitals in Virginia? Why does he care about Caracas more than Columbus? Right? Why does he inform the oil companies in advance and not the Congress?
I think that this is just going to be -- it's wonderful to see Maduro go. I totally endorse that. I can't stand the guy. He's a thug and a punk. But if we're going to start rounding up dictators who threaten America? Which Maduro really didn't. Let's start with Putin, who's apparently Trump's best friend. He's killed a lot more Americans than Maduro ever has.
URBAN: Yes, but Paul -- Paul -- but--
COLLINS: Well, I mean, David on that front--
URBAN: Yes, go ahead.
COLLINS: Respond to that, David. But also Trump -- the President did say last night to reporters, on Air Force One, when he was asked, Did the oil companies, did he give the executives a heads-up before all of this? And his answer was, I watched it, Dave, it was a pretty clear yes from him.
BEGALA: Yes.
COLLINS: I watched it back, just to make sure, and he said, Yes.
URBAN: Yes, so, I didn't see the tapes, so I can't comment on them. But what I do want to comment is in Paul's part -- the part about, where Paul is talking about how Venezuela is not really in our national interest.
It's completely in our national interest. The Western Hemisphere. The Russians and the Chinese. You know, Venezuela's got the largest oil reserve in the world, largest mineral reserve, gold reserve, all these things that we need to lead into the 21st Century.
[21:40:00]
The Russians were investing heavily. The Chinese were investing heavily. This decapitating of the leadership of the socialist, corrupt leadership, in Venezuela, may be a death blow to the Putin regime. May free up resources that otherwise not freed up--
COLLINS: Yes.
URBAN: --to allow our Ukrainian friends -- allow our Ukrainian friends to be successful. So, it is a -- it is hugely important to the United States.
COLLINS: Yes, we'll see what it means for--
URBAN: Hugely important to people in Columbus, Ohio.
COLLINS: We'll see what it means for China and Russia and all this.
URBAN: It well may. And I think -- yes--
COLLINS: But Paul, can I ask you, because I do -- you're our Democrat here. And with the news out of Minnesota that Governor Tim Walz is dropping out of the governor's race because of a welfare fraud scandal in his state that has only intensified. There's been a lot of action there from when Biden was in office, but still going on. Do you think that was the right move by Governor Tim Walz?
BEGALA: I do. I do. Because look, third terms never go very well anyway. And the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party there, the DFL, the Democrats, they have a very strong bench. Amy Klobuchar, very popular Senator, is thinking about running, according to reports. I haven't spoken to her, but I'm sure she is. Keith Ellison, the Attorney General, is popular. Steve Simon, Secretary of State.
Meanwhile, the Republicans, oh my gosh, they have a pillow fight on their side. Right? With the Speaker of the Minnesota House, the My Pillow Guy is running. So, this is actually good news for the Democrats. Because it also takes this very real allegation of corruption in child care, and it takes it out of the political arena, right? Republicans can't make hay off of that.
Believe me, there's a special place for anybody if they're stealing from children, vulnerable children, and that place is in prison here, and in hell in the next life.
But I don't think Democrats need to take any lectures about corruption and fraud from Donald Trump, who, oh, he settled a $25 million fraud case with Trump University. He was found liable for civil fraud in the State of New York. $355 million fine assessed to him. He was found guilty of 34 felony counts of business fraud. So, the fraud issue works for Democrats, and I think that Walz not running makes it continue to work for Democrats.
COLLINS: Paul Begala. David Urban.
URBAN: Paul is good. Paul is good.
COLLINS: Great to have you both joining us.
URBAN: Paul is good. He's good -- he's a good spinner, Kaitlan. He's the only guy that could make a--
BEGALA: Not as good as you are, Urban. URBAN: --he can make a DOJ investigation, a good thing for Democrats.
COLLINS: Yes.
URBAN: He's the best.
COLLINS: I'm just going to leave it there on that compliment, if you want to call it that.
Thanks, David. Thanks, Paul.
Up next. When it comes to this bold operation that happened in Venezuela, what does it mean for the United States' role, and not just when it comes to our own national interests, but around the globe, and the implications it has there.
Trump's former National Security Adviser, who wrote about his desire to do this and go after Maduro, will join me right after this.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump says he's in charge of Venezuela with the deposed leader Nicolas Maduro about to enter his fourth day in U.S. custody. There aren't many details on how exactly or what the benchmarks are, when it comes to, quote, Running a Latin American country that has a population of nearly 34 million people.
Maduro's Vice President, Delcy Rodriguez, was sworn in, in Venezuela, as the acting President, earlier today, as you can see here.
And this comes as Stephen Miller, one of the President's top aides reiterated his position, when it comes to the opposition leader and Nobel Peace Prize winner and why she should not run Venezuela.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MILLER: All Venezuela experts agree that it would be absurd and preposterous for us to suddenly fly her into the country, and to put her in charge, and the military would follow her, and the security forces would follow her? This isn't -- this is not a serious -- it's not even a serious question.
The objective, Jake, is security and stability for the people of Venezuela. With our help and leadership, that country will become more prosperous than it has ever been in its whole history. Venezuelans will be richer and safer and more secure and better off.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: But the woman running Venezuela right now is part of the Maduro regime.
MILLER: There will -- there will be conversations, Jake, about all of these guideposts along the way.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: In the meantime, and that anti-Maduro opposition leader, Maria Corina Machado, just had this to say about the President, moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA CORINA MACHADO, VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION LEADER: As soon as I learned that we had been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, I dedicated to President Trump, because I believed at that point that he deserved it. And a lot of people, most people, said it was impossible to achieve what he has just done on Saturday, January 3rd. So, if I believed he deserved it on October, imagine now. I think he has proven to the world what he means. I mean, January 3rd.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight served as President Trump's National Security Adviser in his first term. Ambassador John Bolton.
And thank you for being here.
Because, you actually told me, on Saturday night, when we were speaking about this, that one of the most stunning things you thought was the President sidestepping supporting her at that press conference. Now you hear what Stephen Miller said, and you're seeing her there talk about the Nobel Peace Prize. Do you think the Nobel Peace Prize has anything to do with the President's view of her?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UN: Well, given Donald Trump, it's entirely possible.
But I think this pretty clear decision now to throw Machado under the bus, not to use the opposition to try and take over the government, but to put reliance on the Maduro regime, without Maduro, is a major turning point and a major mistake.
I think this undercuts the entire opposition. The Venezuelan people who voted overwhelmingly for the surrogate candidate that was put in for Machado, are wondering, does the United States not trust her, not trust the opposition? Why are we apparently prepared to engage with somebody we've sanctioned before, but to give an illegitimate regime, real legitimacy.
[21:50:00]
I think it's a major mistake for a lot of reasons, another being that it undercuts the very rationale for why we're not in violation of international law. We were, in effect, invited in by what we consider the legitimate government, the people who actually won the election in 2024. Just as we had backed Juan Guaido in 2018 and 2019, when Maduro stole the 2018 election from the opposition. All that is now in rags and tatters, and I think it's going to pose real problems for the administration going forward.
COLLINS: So, when they say, Well, she couldn't run it because it would cause too much chaos to bring her in, no one would listen to her. Do you disagree with that?
BOLTON: Well, yes, I do, because what the administration should have been doing is working with the opposition before the raid. They didn't have to tell them the raid was coming.
But they should have been working with the opposition, as the Trump administration did in 2018 and 2019, with Juan Guaido, to try and fragment Maduro's regime, to try and find people inside who would be prepared to defect to the opposition, including military leaders, so that people could have been granted amnesty, a lot of things would have been possible to fragment the Maduro's regime, to cause it to begin to collapse internally, and allow power to come to the opposition. I don't see any evidence we tried that.
COLLINS: Is it clear to you what the policy is on Venezuela right now, inside the administration, going forward?
BOLTON: No, look, I think this is a perfect example, what happens when you break down even the semblance of an orderly decision-making process. I think they're making it up pretty much as they go along, day by day. That doesn't guarantee failure any more than a good process guarantees success. But the chances for failure are significantly increased when you're making decisions by the seat of your pants.
COLLINS: Well, and the one thing that they keep emphasizing is this is the Western Hemisphere. It's the United States' backyard. That's why they took this. The President has been calling it the Donroe Doctrine, instead of the Monroe Doctrine.
The State Department posted this image today of the President saying, THIS IS OUR HEMISPHERE, in all-caps.
If the President is claiming the Western Hemisphere is his, in the Donroe Doctrine. I mean, what does that mean for, that China would get to do in Asia theoretically? I mean, could they not make that same argument?
BOLTON: Well, first, let me say, this is not Donald Trump's thought. He doesn't think in abstract terms or doctrines or spheres of influence. There are people around him, the real isolationists, who approach this from a philosophical point of view, who are telling him this. And if that's what he proclaims, it would be very dangerous.
If I were in Ukraine, if I were in Taiwan, I would be very worried that we could be sacrificed in deals that give Trump what he thinks, or some of his advisers think they want. This is ignoring the strategic reality of the world, that the major threats we face come from the likes of Russia, China, Iran, North Korea. Not from Maduro and his regime in Venezuela.
COLLINS: The Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, is the Secretary of State. He also has your old job, National Security Advisor. And Stephen Miller told me today that he is running point, basically, on Venezuela.
What do you make of that as someone who had one of those three positions previously?
BOLTON: Well, I give Rubio a lot of credit for getting Trump to the point where he at least captured Maduro. That's not regime change. The regime is still in power. But it's better than we were able to do in the first term.
I think Rubio, though, may sense that the chaos and lack of direction in what Trump's trying to do may turn out to be a poison chalice, and he may be more than delighted to turn responsibility over to Stephen Miller, if that's what they want.
COLLINS: Essentially saying, this could get dicey, and he doesn't want to be in charge of it--
BOLTON: Look, nobody would be happier than I if the entire Maduro regime fell tomorrow. But I think the way the administration is approaching this legitimate objective is making that more and more difficult.
COLLINS: What do you make of the President, and what he said last night on Air Force One, when he was asked, Could a similar operation happen in Colombia? He said, sounds good to him. He said that Greenland is very much still on his mind to check back in, in the next 20 days. He said Cuba, he thinks could fall without intervention.
I mean, is that what the foreign policy looks like in this second Trump term?
BOLTON: Well, I think it's the President running his mouth.
Frankly, I think Cuba is a different story. I think the government in Havana rightly fears that if the entire Maduro regime collapses, it will endanger the post-Castro regime in Cuba. And again, there, I would be delighted to see that regime collapse. And while we're at it, the Ortega regime in Nicaragua.
That's very different from Colombia, which actually has a democratically-elected president, not one I'm terribly fond of. He leaves office in about three months, and the people of Colombia will have another democratic election. So, we'll see what Trump says about that.
And as for Greenland, every time he mentions this, Trump endangers the NATO alliance. And if we were to take military action against Greenland, God forbid, it would be the end of NATO. There are some in the administration who would consider that a twofer, unfortunately.
COLLINS: Ambassador John Bolton, thank you for joining us tonight.
BOLTON: Thank you.
COLLINS: Great to have you.
[21:55:00] And up next. There's been a big increase in flu cases around the country. You've probably noticed this. But this comes as something major happened with the administration, happened today, when it comes to the number of vaccines recommended for children.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump is celebrating his administration's overhaul when it comes to the childhood vaccine schedule. It's now cutting the recommended vaccinations from 17 to 11.
[22:00:00]
The President declared that this new schedule, he says, is, quote, "Rooted in the Gold Standard of Science, and widely agreed upon by Scientists and Experts all over the World." He also shared these cartoon images of babies surrounded by needles in these pictures.
There are several public health experts, however, despite what the President said, that tell CNN, they actually think these changes could fuel outbreaks of diseases that are preventable.
This comes as the United States, right now, is undergoing a sharp increase in flu cases that the CDC says has already caused at least nine pediatric deaths, this season.
We'll continue to follow that story for all of you.
Thanks so much for joining us here tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
