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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump: Venezuela Will Turn Over 30-50 Million Barrels Of Oil; Trump To House GOP: Win The Midterms Or "I'll Get Impeached"; White House Rewrites Jan. 6 History, Blames Police For Attack. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 06, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In recent year, judges, attorneys, and activists, have sounded the alarm about the horrific state of MDC, including staff shortages, stabbings, and killings.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Bureau of Prisons has an obligation to take care of prisoner health and safety, and is really historically quite poor at it. But again, in this case, they better be on top of it.
GINGRAS (voice-over): Brynn Gingras. CNN. New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Well that's it for us. The news continues. I'll see you, tomorrow.
"THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. Have a good night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, the White House still facing major questions about what's next in Venezuela. But this comes, as top aides to President Trump now say he's prepared to take Greenland using military force if necessary.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And as we come on the air tonight, there's a big development coming out of the White House, when it comes to Venezuela and the new dynamic between the United States' involvement there.
I'll quote directly from the President, who said that he is pleased, quote, "To announce that the Interim Authorities in Venezuela will be turning over between 30 and 50 MILLION Barrels of High Quality, Sanctioned Oil, to the United States of America." The President says, "This Oil will be sold at its Market Price, and that money will be controlled by me, as President of the United States of America, to ensure it is used to benefit the people of Venezuela and the United States."
Now, the President doesn't spell out what he means by interim authorities there, given he has said the United States is running Venezuela. But it would appear to be the new interim leader, Delcy Rodriguez, who the President has also threatened with a fate worse than Nicolas Maduro's, if she's not in line with how his administration believes Venezuela should operate going forward.
I'm told by a senior administration official tonight, right before we came on air, that this oil that the President is referencing there, is oil that Venezuela has already produced and put into barrels, and the majority of it is now going to go to U.S. facilities that are in the Gulf, to then be refined.
Now there are questions, of course, about the timing of this announcement. A senior Trump official says it needs to happen this fast, because this oil can't be stored for too long, given how heavy it is before it's refined.
Now the President, though, has made clear, as we have been dealing with the fallout and -- or the reaction ever since that raid that happened on Friday, that he's made clear he wants American companies involved in the future of Venezuela as soon as possible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I'm also meeting with oil companies. Let's go. You know what that's about. We got a lot of oil to drill, which is going to bring down oil prices even further.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: We're told that a meeting with U.S. oil executives is set to happen on the books later this week at the White House.
And ahead of that meeting, Joe Scarborough says that the President told him on a call, that the difference between Iraq and this is that former President George W. Bush didn't keep the oil. And the President said, We're going to keep the oil.
That's something that echoes what Donald Trump has said for years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When we got out, we should have taken the oil.
They're talking about a sovereign country.
Iraq. Crooked as hell.
I didn't want to go into Iraq. We got there. I said, keep the oil. They didn't keep the oil. These people don't know what they're doing. You know, in the old days, you're in a war, to the victor belong the spoils, right? I said, keep the oil. Keep the oil. Keep the oil. Don't let somebody else get it.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: If they had listened to me then, we would have had the economic benefits of the oil.
I've always said, Shouldn't be there. But if we're going to get out, take the oil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The idea of seizing oil reserves in a foreign nation used to be something that the President's Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, actually strongly opposed. She's said, the United States, previously, needs to stay out of Venezuela. She said, It's about the oil again. The U.S. must stay out of Venezuela and let the people determine their own future.
And Tulsi Gabbard had also previously said, Military intervention in Venezuela will wreak death and destruction to Venezuelan people, and increase tensions that threaten our national security.
Those past comments are why it stood out tonight when we heard from the Director of National Intelligence, saying that, President Trump promised the American people he would secure our borders, confront narcoterrorism, dangerous drug cartels, and drug traffickers. Kudos to our servicemen and women and intelligence operators for their flawless execution of President Trump's order to deliver on his promise through Operation Absolute Resolve. Which is what the operation to capture Nicolas Maduro was called.
And days after that dramatic raid, we've seen the White House not only focusing on Venezuela, but also reviving its focus on Greenland as well.
[21:05:00]
The White House press secretary said in a statement today, following Stephen Miller's comments to Jake Tapper yesterday, that the administration is discussing a range of options to acquire Greenland, and that using the U.S. military to make that happen is not off the table.
The Wall Street Journal reports tonight that Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, assured members of Congress that the President wants to buy Greenland, not invade it.
My first source tonight is a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Maryland Democrat, Senator Chris Van Hollen.
And thank you, Senator, for being here.
Can I just first get your reaction to the President's announcement that is breaking tonight, where he's talking about, basically, it sounds like Venezuela giving the United States, 30 to 50 million barrels of oil. And then he says that money, after that oil is sold at market price, would belong to him, as the President of the United States, to the United States.
Do you believe that's legal?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): None of this operation has been legal, Kaitlan.
And what the President did was reveal very clearly, as he's been doing for days, that this is all about grabbing Venezuelans' oil, and maybe other natural resources, for the benefit of American oil companies and his billionaire buddies.
He's had his minions, Secretary Rubio and others, try to pretend it's about something else. This has never been about stopping drugs from coming into the United States. It's never about trying to bring democracy to Venezuela and getting rid of a dictator, so things will be better for the Venezuelan people. It's been all about grabbing Venezuela's oil, and the President just talked about it again, this evening.
And we should remember that we are spending billions of dollars to operate this mission, this operation. And, of course, the President put our troops' lives at risk for this oil. And our troops performed magnificently. I mean, we should salute every one of them. But the idea that he's risking American lives, so that his billionaire buddies can make a profit off of Venezuelan oil, I think the American people are going to reject that.
COLLINS: Well, and the President was saying the American people and the Venezuelan people would benefit from this. It's not really clear how, for Venezuela.
But given you just referenced the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio. You said earlier that he had a full MAGA-lobotomy. You obviously voted for him to confirm him as the Secretary of State. Are you rethinking that vote?
VAN HOLLEN: Oh, Kaitlan, I said, probably way back in March of last year, that I regretted deeply voting for Marco Rubio as Secretary of State, because as soon as he took that position, he became the Dear Leader man, he became Mr. MAGA.
And he used to give these speeches on the floor of the Senate about an American foreign policy based on our values, based on human rights, based on freedom, based on democracy. But ever since he's gone into the Donald Trump orbit, he's thrown all of that out the window.
And we saw the proof of that again in their national security strategy document, from a couple weeks ago, where they essentially threw American principles overboard. And in its place, they've put this gunboat new Monroe Doctrine, where the United States, by stint of its military power, can just go do what it wants throughout Latin America. That story doesn't end well for people in Latin America, nor for Americans. COLLINS: Well, to be fair, I will say, Marco Rubio probably felt this way about Venezuela, at least, before he was confirmed as the Secretary of State.
But can I ask you. There's a classified briefing I know that you're getting tomorrow. We'll see, obviously, what you learn in that from the administration on Venezuela.
Greenland has obviously been the other big subject coming out of the White House today, after they're saying, Yes, military force is on the table when it comes to Greenland. Apparently, Rubio is telling lawmakers that they're hoping to buy Greenland, instead of invading it, that it's more just bluster coming from the President to help, you know, hurry that purchase along.
Do you agree with the White House, when they say that Greenland holds important -- strategic importance for the United States?
VAN HOLLEN: Well, Greenland is strategically important to NATO. And the United States, of course, is a leader in NATO. And Denmark is part of NATO, along with all of the other Scandinavian countries now.
And so, the idea that we would reserve the right to use military force to grab Greenland away from another NATO country, would obviously undermine the entire NATO charter. We'd be using military force against another member of NATO. And so, that's why you saw NATO leaders today say, Look, we want to work together as an alliance to make sure that we provide the best security we can for all of us.
But the idea of invading Greenland would undermine and, frankly, just blow up the Atlantic Charter and NATO.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: Support this idea of buying Greenland?
VAN HOLLEN: Look, I don't know about the buying Greenland--
COLLINS: Even though they say it's not for sale, I should be clear (ph).
VAN HOLLEN: I think that's the real point here, Kaitlan, right? Which is Denmark has made clear that, you know -- Greenland is not for sale, and that's why the administration reserves the right, apparently, to use force. I mean, this is insane.
But of course, the President has been saying this from day one. And I have told European leaders that they need to take this stuff seriously, and they need to organize themselves against this onslaught from the President.
I mean, the President's whole theory these days undermines our interests around the world, right? I mean, if his idea is that America can use its might in our hemisphere, right, we can do what we want, that might is right? That sends a signal to people like Vladimir Putin and President Xi that in their neighborhoods, they can do exactly what they want, which explains why Donald Trump has been so deferential to Putin.
And if you're President Xi, you're looking at Taiwan, 90 miles away, and you're saying, Hey, that's in my neighborhood. That's not in the Western Hemisphere.
Which is why I mentioned that Rubio had joined Donald Trump in throwing out the whole idea of a values-based American foreign policy--
COLLINS: Can I ask you just on that though--
VAN HOLLEN: --which however imperfectly implemented, was the basis of our--
COLLINS: I've heard that argument about Taiwan and Ukraine.
VAN HOLLEN: Yes.
COLLINS: But some people say, Well, but Putin is already doing that. You know? It's this idea that he's now influenced or unrestrained because of the President extracting and capturing Maduro, that it's now given Putin some kind of free rein. I mean, he already did invade a neighboring country.
What would you say to that?
VAN HOLLEN: Right. But what it does is explain why Donald Trump, since the beginning, has been kowtowing to Putin in these negotiations, right? I mean, he had the summit in Alaska, where he thought he was going to somehow sweet-talk Vladimir Putin into a deal. And then days later, Putin only escalates his attacks on Ukraine. Instead of standing in solidarity with our NATO partners, and having a stronger negotiating position. Besides that, I mean, Putin, you know, right now it's Ukraine. Tomorrow, it may be something else.
But Donald Trump has unleashed this idea that might is right, and as long as you're doing it in your neighborhood, don't worry about it.
COLLINS: Senator Chris Van Hollen, we'll see if you guys learn anything from that briefing tomorrow. Please let us know if you do. And thanks for joining us tonight.
VAN HOLLEN: Thank you.
COLLINS: My next source is The New York Times' White House and National Security Correspondent, David Sanger.
And David, can we just first talk about the President's post tonight, saying that they're going to -- the United States is going to take in these 30 to 50 million barrels of oil. I'm told it's already on the way to U.S. refineries. What do you make of that?
And also, the President saying it's the interim authorities there that are -- have agreed to this.
I mean, they basically -- Delcy Rodriguez, who's running Venezuela right now, ostensibly, doesn't really have a lot of options, given the President's threats against her.
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE & NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "NEW COLD WARS": I think there are two fascinating elements to this.
First is, the President didn't say that they were buying this oil from Venezuela. They basically said it was being delivered, presumably under the threat that we've got a large armada that is still sitting off of the Venezuelan coast.
The second is that it was a gift from the Venezuelan interim government. Well, that interim government was the government basically that was created by Maduro, who, according the United States, stole the last election and was never the legitimate president. Which then raises the question, Why would his vice president, just sworn in as the interim president, be any more legitimate, elected at the same time, on the same ballot?
So, this is looking, increasingly, to Venezuela's neighbors, and I think, to the world, as basically the United States laying claim to Venezuelan oil and the reserves behind it, by virtue of the power of having the Navy right there.
COLLINS: What did you make of Tulsi Gabbard's post tonight, praising this operation, saying that the President is following through on his campaign promise. I mean, given she is the one who's posted many times before on Venezuela itself, saying that the people in Venezuela should choose their leader.
SANGER: She wouldn't be the first member of this administration, or some previous administrations, to get a sudden case of amnesia about their previous postings by the time they got in office. I mean, she has learned to line up as the Director of National Intelligence.
[21:15:00]
It's not her job, right now, to determine whether or not this would be good or bad, but instead to provide intelligence about what it is that the President of the United States should expect, if he takes certain actions.
And, in this case, from everything we understand about the intelligence that were provided, it was that the interim government, the Maduro government, was the one most likely to be pliable when Maduro was gone.
And so, that's why you saw the President install or bless the installation of the interim government, instead of the government that the United States itself recognized at the end of the 2024 election in Venezuela.
COLLINS: Yes, including Secretary Rubio himself on that front.
SANGER: Yes.
COLLINS: We'll see what this means. I mean, we're clearly getting a scope of what the U.S.-Venezuela relationship looks like now.
On Greenland. What is the latest you're hearing on that?
SANGER: So, Secretary Rubio, as The Times has reported, The Wall Street Journal and others have reported, has said, we want to buy it, not invade it.
That's good news, except for the fact it's not for sale right now, as far as we can tell. And the Europeans have reacted poorly to it.
COLLINS: Yes, if I say--
SANGER: What--
COLLINS: --I want to buy your house, not invade it, how would you take that?
SANGER: Well, it -- I might take it one way, if you just knocked on my door. I might take it another way, if you had the -- you had 15 percent of the U.S. Navy hanging right offshore from my house, right?
What's fascinating to me, having just been to Greenland, this summer, is we don't need to actually own it. There were 16 or 17 U.S. bases at the height of the Cold War in Greenland. We closed almost all of them, except one that is used by Space Force now, and one that's used by the New York Air National Guard to get scientists and others onto the ice cap of Greenland.
And we could reopen any of the others under the treaty. As far as we can tell, the administration has not discussed doing that. All they need to do is send a letter to Denmark, and say, We're ready to go do this. And obviously, those bases are in pretty tough shape after a few Greenland winters, but it could be done, and you wouldn't need to own it. So, the question is, how much of this is performative for the thought that we could expand our territory?
COLLINS: David Sanger. That's a great question. We'll see how it plays out. Thanks for joining with that reporting.
And up next. Here in Washington today, a much smaller response that we saw on the Capitol on the five-year anniversary of that deadly riot, a riot that was incited by the President, as he was refusing to accept that he lost the 2020 election.
But now the President, this evening, is issuing this warning to House Republicans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You got to win the midterms. Because if we don't win the midterms, it's just going to be -- I mean, they'll find a reason to impeach me. I'll get impeached.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: House Republicans gathered, here in Washington today, to hear President Trump's vision for the high-stakes midterm election that is coming up, that's going to happen this year, this November.
And as you listened in, the President's 80-minute-long speech included, not just -- did not include a detailed plan, I should note, to keep the House in Republicans' hands. But it did have a list of grievances and warnings about what happens if they don't.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They say that when you win the presidency, you lose the midterm. So, you're all brilliant people. Most of you are in this business longer than me. That makes me smarter than you, because look where I am, right?
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: No, it doesn't.
But I wish you could explain to me what the hell's going on with the mind of the public. Because we have a -- we have the right policy. They don't. They have a horrible policy.
All of these things, you have so much ammunition. All you have to do is sell it.
You got to win the midterms. Because if we don't win the midterms, it's just going to be -- I mean, they'll find a reason to impeach me. I'll get impeached.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My political sources are here tonight, including:
Former senior adviser to Senator Mitch McConnell, Scott Jennings.
And also former senior adviser to President Obama, David Axelrod, who might know a thing or two about the importance of the midterm elections?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: Oh, man, I still have scars on my back from the midterms of 2010.
COLLINS: I mean, I think Trump's concern is well-founded, and one -- I mean, maybe he would get impeached, I don't know about that. But I've heard from White House officials for months say, If we lose the midterms, basically, this presidency is over as we know it. I mean, they do understand the stakes of this.
AXELROD: Yes. Look, every presidency is hindered when you lose, when you -- you know, when you surrender control of Congress, one house or the other, or both. But I -- look, are there grounds to consider impeachment? I don't know, that -- I'll leave that to others. Is it -- would it be wise to do that? No. But should the Congress, politically I should say, but should the Congress fulfill its obligation to provide oversight, which they haven't done over the last year? Absolutely. And if the President fears that? It may be because he suspects that's going to be uncomfortable.
COLLINS: Well, and I think the question of how to avoid that, Scott is, is what do House Republicans do in the meantime? And the President was saying that they have the right policy to win in the midterms, they just need to sell it. I believe he was referring to it as nuggets today, that they have the right ones.
NBC poll found that 64 percent of percent of Americans think that the United States is on the wrong track. That's a tough sell sometimes.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL, HOST, "THE SCOTT JENNINGS RADIO SHOW" ON SRN: Yes, but what you have to sell is that you've got a plan, and you're executing a plan to get us back on the right track.
[21:25:00]
You hear the President often talk about the mess that he inherited. He talked about it today. He talked about it in his address to the nation, the other night. I think what he's imploring these Republicans to do is, don't accept the terms of the debate being laid out by Democrats who appear to have amnesia about the mess they left the country in during the Biden years.
Regarding impeachment. Look, if you look at the Democrat messaging right now, virtually everything that happens, many of them rush to the television to say, This is illegal. This is illegal. This is illegal.
If that's what you really believe, what do you think your base is going to expect you to do if you do take control of the U.S. House? They're going to expect impeachment.
So, I think what the President said today is well-founded, and I don't think the base of the Democratic Party is going to accept being told things are illegal, and then being told by those same leaders later, We'll look the other way on it? They won't accept that.
COLLINS: What about the base of the Republican Party--
AXELROD: Can I just say -- can I just say one thing about this?
COLLINS: Yes.
AXELROD: The reason that the President is in the predicament he's in is because 61 percent of Americans believe they are worse off, that the economy is worse off than it was when he came. People do not believe that he fulfilled his promise to lower costs. They don't think he's focused on the things that are most important in their lives, which is the cost of living. That is why. So, if people go out and sell his program, the judgment right now, on the part of the American people, is that the program has not worked, and that the President is not focused on -- he's focused on Venezuela. He's focused on ballrooms. He's focused on a lot of things. But he's not focused on them. That's the problem.
This isn't a sales problem. This is a reality problem. People are consulting the cash register, their rent checks, their health care bills, and they're saying, Things are not getting better, they're getting worse. And that's more than a -- than a marketing issue.
COLLINS: Well, one other thing that he promised to do that has his base at least unhappy. Who knows if it will affect the midterms. Is when it comes to the Epstein files. I mean, the numbers from the Justice Department are kind of stunning, when they say they've released less than 1 percent of all that they have. There are still more than 2 million documents that remain unreleased as of right now.
JENNINGS: Yes, there's a lot of documents. I also read that they've got 400 lawyers at the Justice Department working on it. So, it's obvious they're trying to comply with the law. I mean, it's also obvious to me, 30 days, this wasn't enough time. And I think you do want as many people as you can doing the proper diligence on this.
I mean, there's a lot of sensitive information in here. There are victims' names. There may be names of minors. I mean, to me, dumping everything out onto the street, when it could put real people who've already been victimized in further jeopardy, or in further anguish, is not a good thing. I think they're diligently trying to do it. It's just taking longer than the 30 days that Congress arbitrarily put into this law.
So, I think as long as they're diligently working with appropriate number of staff to do it? That will be accepted.
COLLINS: But technically--
AXELROD: Listen, more people are here--
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: And I don't think this is the biggest issue. To me that -- you said the base of the -- look, the base of the Republican Party, sure, many would say they want it released. But also, many would tell you, We trust them to do it in the proper fashion. And I think they would say, Yes, if Trump says he's going to do it, we believe him, and they've got 400 lawyers working on it, that's OK.
AXELROD: The baffling thing about this is that this discussion hasn't just -- didn't just start in December. This has been going on for a year. The Attorney General said she had all these files on her desk. She assured people that they went through these, all of the relevant files, and there was no one else culpable in this whole horrible situation.
And now it's as if, Oh, my God, we just found another 2 million documents related to this case.
I think people have a right to be suspicious as to why they haven't been all along, been faithful to what they promised they were going to do.
COLLINS: Yes, I think that's a good point. They have had -- I mean, they could have started working on this last--
JENNINGS: I guess. Look, I--
COLLINS: --March.
JENNINGS: I mean, look, Susie Wiles, the White House Chief of Staff, made some comments about this. Obviously, there's some view on her part of the public relations mishandling of this, at the beginning of the administration.
But the facts are today, a law was passed. President Trump signed the law. He's instructed the Department of Justice and obviously, hundreds of lawyers to fulfill the law. They're doing it. They're doing it as fast as they can. And we'll see what comes out.
AXELROD: My--
COLLINS: Can we talk about Dan Bongino, though? Because he's tied into all this, he's talked about the Epstein files a bunch. He has now left his position as the Deputy Director of the FBI, after less than a year on the job. And he was posting a lot, over the last 36 hours or so, including saying that he couldn't wait to get back to basically his old job, which was as a podcaster.
But he also said that people are trying -- that he's -- trying to hijack MAGA in a series of tweets. He said, the support for the administration -- I think we have that post -- in the working world is strong, and people are tired of the endless BS, as he was going on at length in these tweets, and that he's back, and he's putting this bullshit to a stop, as he put it, of people who are criticizing the President.
JENNINGS: Well, he has a strong following. I mean, before he joined the administration, he had one of the biggest conservative podcasts out there, a lot of followers, a lot of social media pickup on virtually everything he would do.
[21:30:00]
So, seeing him get back into the game, and seeing him defending the President, and seeing him fight against some people out there who are giving the President trouble, or trying to draft on the President's back, you know--
COLLINS: But why is the argument that he can fight better on the outside than on the inside?
JENNINGS: Well, look, government service is not for everybody. I mean, let's be honest. I'm glad he went in. I like Dan Bongino, and I'm grateful he chose to serve. But there are a lot of people who think that they're more valuable fighting in our political sphere, on the outside than on the inside. He's obviously one of them. And now he's got some stories to tell.
I'm just telling you about his audience. It's substantial. He has credibility. And so, to see him coming out swinging hard like this, it'll certainly shake up the conservative landscape.
AXELROD: He may be much more comfortable with that than the responsibility of securing 330 million Americans. It was an odd choice in the first place for that job. I mean, he's doing what he does. He's a podcaster.
COLLINS: Well, don't worry, we have much more of this conversation. This podcast, it's even better.
JENNINGS: Great.
COLLINS: With David Axelrod, Scott Jennings.
Up next. There was an attempt by the White House today to rewrite history when it came to what happened at the Capitol five years ago today. We'll have some truth about what happened, right after this.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It's the fifth anniversary of the January 6 attack here on Capitol Hill. I'm standing in Statuary Hall right now, where the President's supporters came through that day, as a mob of them stormed the Capitol over his false election claims.
And I should note, this comes on a day that the President was speaking to House Republicans, and criticizing the Democratic lawmakers who investigated him.
He also put up a website at the White House today, basically whitewashing the events of that day, and claiming that he acted decisively, blaming the Capitol Hill police officers for what transpired here on Capitol Hill, and also going after his then-Vice President, Mike Pence.
Despite the President's claims that he acted decisively, you can actually see text messages from that day, between his own family members, and his own staffers inside the West Wing, urging him to do more and sooner.
This also comes as the people the President pardoned, at least some of them who were convicted for their actions on that day, were here in Washington on this fifth anniversary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my political sources are back with me.
Scott Jennings, what do you make of the White House website?
JENNINGS: Well, the President has a point of view on this, and has never been shy about stating it. Not everybody agrees with him. Not everybody in the Republican Party agrees with him. And so, I wasn't surprised to see him use his website to effectively lay out the message that he often lays out in his speeches and in his answers about these issues when he gets questions on them.
COLLINS: What about that part -- OK. But hold -- can we pause?
AXELROD: But can I ask you a question though--
COLLINS: Can we see right there? Capitol Police Response Escalates Tensions. If you scroll back a little bit more. They're blaming the Capitol Police, which I thought -- I mean, the other parts, Mike Pence Refuses to Act, yada yada yada. That is not surprising. I mean, that is what we've heard at length.
But when it says Capitol Police Response Escalates Tensions? I mean, that's blaming the cops for what happened that day. Is it not, Scott?
JENNINGS: Yes, I mean, that's -- that's how you could read it.
Look, I have a point of view on this that's somewhat different than the President's. And look, I also don't treat it like a national holiday, like the Democrats do. It was a bad day, but I don't look forward to moralizing it every year. It's a bad day. It should never happen again.
The President has a point of view on it. He's got a messaging point of view on it, that he's never backed away from. And the American people frankly adjudicated these questions in the 2024 election, and he's the sitting president.
AXELROD: Let me -- let me say a few things. First of all, I don't think it should be treated as a holiday or a cause for celebration. It should be a cause for remembrance. It should be a cause for -- a day.
And let me tell you something. You and I have been friends for a long time. I've never been prouder of you than in the aftermath of that, because you were -- you were unremittingly critical of what happened. You were critical of the assault on police officers. A 170 people were convicted of assaulting police officers, like 65 of them, with weapons. And you were -- you were eloquent in that moment. And that's something, whatever you -- whatever you feel you have to say or do now, that's something that you and your kids will look back at with pride.
And I hope that if a Democratic president were to do what that -- the President did that day and didn't do that day, and leading up to that day, that I would be as eloquent as you were in criticizing a president of your own party.
JENNINGS: Well, look, I -- you know, it was a bad day, and I don't ever want to see it happen again. I mean, you want election days and days that sort of mark time in our democracy to go off as smoothly as possible.
I'm very thankful that we've moved on from that day. I'm also thankful that the American people looked at all of these issues, in 2024, and made their political decisions, and then Donald Trump transitioned back into the White House in a relatively normal manner.
We appear, at least to my eye, after 25 years of some election denialism in both parties, to have gotten somewhat off of this slippery slope.
AXELROD: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. First of all--
JENNINGS: And so, that's a good thing. Do you not agree we're on a good -- better trajectory?
AXELROD: Who's gotten off of election denialism? The President is still -- Kaitlan hears him often. He's still -- he's still talking about that.
And the way that we make sure that it doesn't happen again is that all of us, Republicans and Democrats lock arms and say, What happened that day was wrong. It should never happen again. Our leaders should stand up, and as they did in the aftermath, but then retreated, some of them, and say, This is not the way a democracy should run.
[21:40:00]
So, when you have a White House website that completely rewrites history? That doesn't help put it behind us. That just continues the debate. There should be no debate about this.
JENNINGS: Yes, look, if you're looking for him to stop talking about this? It is not going to happen.
AXELROD: I--
JENNINGS: I mean, he hasn't--
AXELROD: All right.
JENNINGS: He hasn't yet--
AXELROD: So, we haven't gotten past, you say?
JENNINGS: No. But I would ask you, have Democrats--
AXELROD: But--
JENNINGS: --have Democrats gotten past believing that Russia stole the 2016 election?
AXELROD: That's not what we're talking about here.
JENNINGS: Have Democrats gotten past-- AXELROD: We're talking about -- we're talking about January 6.
JENNINGS: --denying that George W. Bush legitimately won--
AXELROD: No, no, I asked--
JENNINGS: I'm saying -- my point to you is this.
AXELROD: I--
JENNINGS: Over 20 -- over a quarter of the century, we got onto a bad path, and there were people in both parties who did make it a point to say the election wasn't legitimate. My point is simply this. In 2024, we had an election. The votes were counted. We had a legitimate result. Both parties accepted it. And we had a peaceful transition of power. And that is unequivocally a good thing.
COLLINS: Can I make two points?
AXELROD: Yes, no, I agree with that. And I'm proud that--
COLLINS: Can I make two points though on that--
AXELROD: --a Democratic administration--
COLLINS: But Axe, on that--
AXELROD: --observed that.
COLLINS: On that front, I mean two points, which is one, that Kamala Harris was the one who certified Donald Trump's victory without any issue that day, which is what he is saying still to this day, Mike Pence did wrong. He's saying Mike Pence didn't speak up.
But on your claiming, Democrats who say Russia stole the election in 2016. Joe Biden didn't put up a website, on the federal government website, saying that Russia stole the election, that Donald Trump wasn't legitimately elected in 2016.
JENNINGS: So? Virtually every elected Democrat in the country -- if you walked into a Democratic dinner tonight--
COLLINS: But I'm saying if the federal government put up--
JENNINGS: --and said, Trump won fair and square? You'd be thrown out on your rear end. And you know it. He don't have to put -- they don't have to put up a website. The message went out.
COLLINS: But what if someone says that a restaurant is different than what the federal government puts up on a doc (ph) of taxpayer-funded website film?
JENNINGS: Look, feel free to disagree with the President's messaging on this.
My only point to you, Axe, was this. We were on a path for a very long time where people, lots of people, and people in both parties, just couldn't find it in their heart to accept the results of elections. We did, in 2024.
I guess, over the last 25 years of being in politics, I kind of always wanted there to be a moment, where we could all basically agree, the election was fair, the votes were counted, and we had a legitimate winner. We have that now.
And now, we go back and treat this like it's a national holiday for some people.
AXELROD: Well--
JENNINGS: I don't personally agree with that. We have to move on from this at some point.
AXELROD: Well, that's a message that you should convey to the President, because he's the guy who keeps repeating again and again, even in occasions where it doesn't make sense, that that election in 2020 -- and he's still looking for justification for it, so he won't let this issue die.
Every other president has respected the decision, the will of the American people. Every vice president has certified the election, whether they were on the winning side or the losing side. That's how it should work.
The problem here is with the President of the United States. And you were -- you were right to criticize him when you did. And you should continue to urge him to put it behind him, so that we can get that -- that we can move forward.
JENNINGS: Well, my point to you would be that the vast majority of Americans looked at these issues at the moment. They had the feelings they had. Some were strongly critical of it. Some didn't care as much, but whatever. Then they re-litigated this in the 2024 election.
AXELROD: That--
JENNINGS: And they returned Trump to the White House.
AXELROD: Yes.
JENNINGS: And Democrats--
AXELROD: Yes.
JENNINGS: --want to return to this all the time and treat it like a national holiday.
AXELROD: No.
JENNINGS: And most of the country has moved on from this.
AXELROD: Yes. JENNINGS: And they don't want to revisit it, because most people, I think, Axe, probably thought it was a bad day, a dark day, and they would rather not--
AXELROD: There are--
JENNINGS: --relive one of our worst days.
AXELROD: There are -- there are 330 million Americans. Most Americans don't want to relive this day. They certainly want to put it behind us. They certainly agree with both of us that we should never do it again.
One of those 330 million is the President of the United States. He can't put it behind him. He continues to seek retribution against people who said that he had lost the election. He's forgiven you, but he hasn't a lot of other people. And I think he is the guy who is responsible. When Donald Trump says, That's over, I'm looking forward? Then I think we'll make some progress.
JENNINGS: You--
COLLINS: Yes, you just see, also looking back to those messages that flooded Mark Meadows' phone that day, you see the influence everyone knows Trump has on these people.
JENNINGS: I know. But everybody looked at this -- again, you made all these arguments.
AXELROD: People made -- people--
JENNINGS: All year--
AXELROD: Nobody forgave Donald Trump for that.
JENNINGS: --in 2024.
AXELROD: Nobody forgave him for that. There were people who decided that their livelihood and some other issues that were most -- more motivating were more important than that to them, and they voted that way. That doesn't mean that he gets a pass.
COLLINS: Scott though, can I say, if your point is that we should just move on? Don't you think they just shouldn't put the website up today? I mean, this has been a huge part of it--
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Sure. If you all will stop treating it like a national holiday, I'll ask them to take the website down.
COLLINS: Do you think I treat it like a national -- what are you talking about, Scott?
JENNINGS: I'm -- I'm--
COLLINS: Don't say, You all. Well, hold on. But don't say, You all, Scott.
JENNINGS: Look--
AXELROD: I was working today.
JENNINGS: This -- this is a major storyline--
COLLINS: Yes, OK.
[21:45:00]
JENNINGS: --every year for media, and for Democrats. I don't hear Republicans out holding vigils and making a huge deal out of it today or most of these days. I'm just -- my point is this. We're either going to move on from it or we're not. And I'm ready to--
AXELROD: Yes--
JENNINGS: You know, that's what I chose to do, that's what millions of people chose to do, when they voted in 2024.
AXELROD: But not the President, not the White House.
COLLINS: David Axelrod. Scott Jennings.
I don't know how Abby does this every night. I kind of give a shoutout to Abby.
JENNINGS: What's that supposed to mean?
AXELROD: This is the--
COLLINS: The panel. The debate.
Speaking of all this, though, I should note, programming note. Tomorrow night, on this show, you will see the former Vice President, Mike Pence. He's going to join me on Venezuela, January 6, what was mentioned about him today and much more. That will be here tomorrow night, 09:00 p.m. Eastern.
Up next for us here. There are really big questions about the administration's plans for other countries and what exactly the Donroe Doctrine is. My source tonight was in a top national security position under the President. We'll talk to him about this next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You have Lincoln. You have Washington. But you look over here, that's Monroe, the Monroe Doctrine.
TERRY MORAN, ABC NEWS ANCHOR & SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Why is he up there? TRUMP: I think the Monroe Doctrine was pretty important, you know, that was his claim to fame.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And tonight, President Trump might be making his own claim to fame and entering the Donroe Doctrine era.
President James Monroe's 1823 statement, I should note, reads, The American continents are henceforth not to be considered as subjects for colonization by any European powers.
Basically many -- meaning, any new effort by European efforts to control anything in the Western Hemisphere would be seen by the United States as a security threat.
And based on his recent statements, the President seems to see a lot of threats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Colombia is very sick too, run by a sick man who likes making cocaine and selling it to the United States. And he's not going to be doing it very long, let me tell you.
Mexico has to get their act together.
American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never be questioned again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is CNN Global Affairs Analyst, Brett McGurk, who served in the top national security positions under four presidents from both parties, including President Trump.
And Brett, just given what we hear from the President there, how this Donroe Doctrine, as it's taking shape, as the White House articulates it. What stands out to you about it?
BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, FORMER MIDDLE EAST & NORTH AFRICA COORDINATOR, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: Stands out for me, after the very successful operation to capture Maduro, the word, hubris, keeps coming to mind, when I'm watching this kind of expansion of aims.
And Venezuela now is a huge task. I don't think anybody can really articulate what the way forward is there. And I would just really recommend focusing on that.
Because if you start saying, Well, what about Colombia? Colombia is a totally different country. Colombia, we have security intelligence ties. Colombia will have a presidential election in May. And in fact, the President of Colombia, that President Trump does not like, has a term limit. He actually will be out of power one way or the other. Greenland is a whole other issue, which is now back front and center on the agenda, which is really, really spooking, Kaitlan, our European allies, as Trump's envoys, are in Paris, working with NATO, on a potential security package for Ukraine.
So like, there's so many threads here, and I just -- I think in foreign policy, you have to have discipline and focus. And I would really appeal to the President to focus on Venezuela, try to get that right, before expanding all of these other aims.
The national security agenda right now is truly massive. I wrote a piece for CNN, saying, This year is a hinge year for global power in history. If you look at Ukraine, Taiwan. I mentioned Venezuela, Iran, Israel, Gaza, terrorism, A.I. All these issues are coming at us with a velocity that is almost unprecedented. And in the spring, I mean, the President will be seeing Xi Jinping here fairly soon in April.
So, so much on the agenda, and it seems like every day there's just more and more issues being piled up for a very small national security team.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point in term -- especially with the Secretary of State, who's acting as the National Security Advisor.
MCGURK: Right.
COLLINS: And Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner were in Paris, as you mentioned, for those talks. There were agreements on security guarantees, if a peace plan can come together.
MCGURK: Yes.
COLLINS: They were both asked a question by a reporter, and this is what they said in response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: What value do these commitments have on the very day that at the highest levels of government in Washington, they are talking about seizing the sovereign territory of a fellow NATO member?
STEVE WITKOFF, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY TO THE MIDDLE EAST: The President does not back down from his commitments. He is strong for the country of Ukraine and for a peace deal. And we will be there for the Ukrainians in helping them to get to that final peace, and we're confident we will get there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Does any of this, you think, have bearing on what's happening in these talks?
MCGURK: I've been an envoy for President Trump. I led the Counter ISIS campaign in his first two years, and I often had to deal with, if the President was saying, We're actually in Syria to take the oil or keep the oil, you'll have to say, No, we're there for ISIS. You try to keep it on track. That's what I saw Steve doing there.
The work that's being done on Ukraine is actually very good. Look, the arrangements for this deal, Kaitlan, are something on territory and security guarantees for Ukraine.
I do not believe the Russians and Putin will be ready to move towards that deal, probably till later this year. I think Putin believes he'll have a military breakthrough this spring when the fighting season starts. I don't think he will. And then, you'll have -- you'll have the elements for a deal.
The work that was done today is very important. However, if the United States and the Trump administration makes a move, somehow, on Greenland, or really pushes Denmark to give up Greenland? You're going to break up, you're going to crack up NATO. I mean, that's kind of where this is headed.
COLLINS: Even if there's a sale, do you think it will hurt NATO?
MCGURK: I can't see -- Greenland is not really for sale.
[21:55:00]
You had David Sanger on the show earlier, and he's absolutely right. Denmark is one of our best allies. Anything I was ever doing, I would really go to Copenhagen for some of the most difficult issues, join the naval coalition in the Red Sea, send troops to Anbar Province to fight ISIS. That's what they do. They are a key ally.
And we have a -- we have a security agreement with Denmark on Greenland. We can basically do what we want to do. So just talk to Denmark. They're good allies.
COLLINS: Brett McGurk.
Well, they're trying to get a meeting with Rubio. We'll see what happens.
Great to have you here tonight. Thank you so much for that.
MCGURK: Thank you.
COLLINS: And we'll be back after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: Tomorrow night, at 09:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on THE SOURCE, tune in for our exclusive interview, with the former Vice President, Mike Pence.
Tonight, you saw the President still enraged at him for not certifying the 2020 election, after he was forced to flee into the garage underneath the Capitol with rioters threatening to hang him upstairs. We're going to talk about that, and also much more, his thoughts, on the second Trump administration, and what's been happening recently. That live interview with Mike Pence, tomorrow night, 09:00 p.m. here Eastern.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
