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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
U.S. Citizen Shot, Killed By ICE Agent In Minneapolis; Minneapolis Mayor To ICE: We Do Not Want You Here; White House Website: Pence Betrayed Trump On Jan. 6. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 07, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --Whitney Wild is on the scene there, where this deadly shooting took place, earlier today, according to local officials, around 09:30 a.m. or so in this morning. We have been showing you multiple -- we have two angles on it. There may be more videos to come in the hours and days ahead. We'll continue to follow it tonight.
Thanks very much.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, there are thousands of people who have taken to the streets of Minneapolis, holding a vigil, in the freezing cold, and gathering around a makeshift shrine of flowers and candles that have been placed on a patch of snow. That's near where an Immigration and Customs agent fatally shot an American citizen today.
The Governor of Minnesota, Tim Walz, has the National Guard on standby, warning citizens, in his words, that the White House wants, quote, a show, and urging them not to give it to them.
Those protesters that you see tonight are responding to what was captured on video today, in broad daylight, from several different angles. It has become an instant flash point in our deeply-divided country. And we'll let you watch the videos and decide for yourself.
CNN's John Miller is going to walk us through, from a law enforcement perspective, what he believes those videos reveal and what they don't.
And I should note tonight, before you're about to see what we're about to show you, we do not know what happened before these cameras started recording.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out the car. Get out the car. Get out of the fucking car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No. Shame.
(GUNSHOTS) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shame. Oh my (bleep) god. What the (bleep)? What the (bleep)? You just (bleep). What the (bleep) did you do?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's the first video that surfaced today.
Here's a second video taken from the other side of that car.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get the (bleep) out of our neighborhood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out the car. Get out the car. Get out of the fucking car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No. Shame.
(GUNSHOTS)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shame.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: There's also this angle of what happened that appears to show the woman's car making contact with the agent who ultimately fired his gun and fatally shot her.
We heard from the Department of Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem, who arrived in Minneapolis, this evening, accusing the driver of attempting to run the ICE agent over.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No. Shame.
(GUNSHOTS)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shame. Oh my (bleep) god. What the (bleep)? What the (bleep)? You just (bleep). What the (bleep) did you do?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: There is one more video from today's scene that I want you to see. It shows the agent walking away from the SUV after that crash happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shame.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shame.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shame. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shame. Shame. Shame.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dude, what's happening to her? What happened?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Images that were obtained by CNN show a bullet hole in the windshield of that car.
And this is how witnesses who were there when this shooting happened described what they saw on the scene.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a red SUV parked right in front of our house. Two people in camouflage, ICE agents, presumably one on the driver's side, one on the passenger side of the vehicle.
A third person in also camouflage fatigues came and started pulling on the driver's side door handle, at which point the vehicle backed up a few feet and started driving forward.
The agent who was on the driver's side originally, who was not pulling on the handle, but had been there prior to that, shot two or three times through the driver's side window. The car drove a 30, 40 feet and crashed into another car and the telephone pole.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It does not appear aggressive to me. I think that if they felt like that they were in any danger, they could have stepped two feet backwards. I think, in my opinion, that this was an unnecessary use of force in a reaction to imagined danger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, in the moments, after those videos that you just saw, after this shooting happened, we could hear a doctor in another video pleading with the agents who were still there on the scene, to let him go and check on the driver.
[21:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I go check a pulse?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Back up. Now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a physician.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, listen, we understand.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't care.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got EMS coming. And I get it. Just give us a second.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have medics on feet. We have our own medics.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where are they?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where are the medics?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where are they?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Relax (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can I relax? You just killed my (bleep) neighbor. You caught -- shot her in the (bleep) face. You killed my (bleep) neighbor. How do you show up to work every day? How the (bleep) do you do this every day? You're killing my neighbors. You're stealing my neighbors. What the (bleep) man?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, that's what the videos from today show.
And here's how the Trump administration responded about two hours after.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTI NOEM, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: It was an act of domestic terrorism, what happened. It was -- our ICE officers were out in an enforcement action. They got stuck in the snow because of the adverse weather that is in Minneapolis. They were attempting to push out their vehicle, and a woman attacked them and those surrounding them, and attempted to run them over and ram them with her vehicle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was from Kristi Noem.
The President himself, posted a few hours after the shooting, saying, quote, "The woman screaming was, obviously, a professional agitator, and the woman driving the car was very disorderly, obstructing and resisting, who then violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE Officer, who seems to have shot her in self defense."
The President continued, Based on the attached clip, it is hard to believe he is alive, but is now recovering in the hospital. The situation is being studied, in its entirety, but the reason these incidents are happening is because the Radical Left is threatening, assaulting, and targeting our Law Enforcement Officers and ICE Agents on a daily basis.
Secretary Noem says, this afternoon, that the officer did go to the hospital, but has since been released and is with his family.
And behind the wheel of that SUV, we've now learned more, it was 37- year-old mother, who Minnesota Senator Tina Smith identified as, Renee Nicole Good. Her mother told the Minneapolis Star Tribune, this evening, that her daughter was, quote, an amazing human being, and described her as loving, forgiving and affectionate. We're still working tonight to learn more about her and her life.
And this hour, I'm going to speak with the Mayor of Minneapolis, whose reaction to this shooting and the aftermath was raw and unfiltered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR JACOB FREY, (D) MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA: They are already trying to spin this as an action of self-defense. Having seen the video myself, I want to tell everybody directly, that is bullshit. This was an agent recklessly using power that resulted in somebody dying, getting killed.
And I have a message for ICE. To ICE, get the fuck out of Minneapolis. We do not want you here. Your stated reason for being in this city is to create some kind of safety, and you are doing exactly the opposite.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: We'll speak to the Mayor, and the Police Chief who was standing to his right there, in just a few moments.
I want to start though with CNN's Laura Coates, who is on the scene in Minneapolis tonight.
And Laura, we could see these aerial images of where you are tonight, of just how many people have gathered. What are you hearing from people, of how they're responding in the aftermath of this tonight?
LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: I mean, Kaitlan, I am a few feet away from where a woman has lost her life, earlier today.
And we've heard all that you have to say in terms of the different iterations and narratives that are there. But the through line here among the community is frustration, is sadness, is anger towards what has happened. Many felt it would be predictable that there would be some type of violence that would ensue, with the large presence of ICE here in the community. There is frustration about the response from the administration from Washington, D.C., and beyond.
There is also a lot of concern about the idea that this was somehow justified. The idea that this video was released quite quickly has made people well-aware of what has transpired from different angles, and they have formed very strong opinions. People have felt compelled to come out tonight, in honor of this woman, what they believe is a dedicated community member who was here simply to show support and to voice her views in a democracy.
Others felt compelled to be here, I spoke to one of three different daughters who has had their father deported during the first administration of Trump, and spoke about how they were paying homage to somebody who was trying to make sure that they supported those who had to navigate the new-found rules under immigration and beyond.
But also, there were those who were frustrated about what the rhetoric from the President of the United States has been, that would essentially give license to agents to go above and beyond what was actually detailed in their assignments and to advocate for additional violence.
There is an undoubtable -- undoubted and a palpable level of frustration, but mostly anger and sadness.
And here I am in front of a vigil that began with a few flowers. It has now grown in size. We've heard from people, all around the community, who have been speaking here today, talking about safety and safe spaces.
[21:10:00]
But really, you have a feeling and community of love, of people who are here to support one another, even a few blocks away from the George Floyd murder as well, and in a year that Minnesota has endured tremendous violence, politically, a lawmaker being killed, Annunciation School, a school shooting, among others. And here tonight, a few feet away from where someone has lost their life.
COLLINS: Yes. It's devastating to see.
Laura Coates, keep us updated on what you're seeing. We'll check back in with you throughout the hour.
And of course, tune in to see Laura's reporting from the ground tonight, during her show at 11 o'clock Eastern.
Also joining me is CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller.
And John, given your experience and deep experience that it is, I know you've been closely studying the eyewitness videos of this shooting. And as Laura noted, there are several different angles of a lot of these. A lot of our viewers have probably seen them online already. And they are graphic if you haven't, so let me warn you.
But John, can you just walk us through, when you're looking at these videos, from your perspective, what stands out to you?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, sure. When you look at the videos, you see different versions from different angles, which is important.
But in this one, you see she waves through by sticking her hand out the window and waving through the first ICE vehicles that go by, two SUVs.
And then this third vehicle shows up and stops. And then, in that -- in that video, they get out of the car. They approach her. This agent here puts his hands on the door and on the door handle, and says, Get out of the car.
She starts to back up, tilts the wheels to the right and appears to understand she's about to be arrested, and is attempting, it appears, to get away. Now, at this point, there's an agent positioned in front of the car. We just see him drawing his gun at a certain point right there. And as the car proceeds forward, with the other agent still making contact with his hands with the door, and that vehicle comes towards him, we hear those three shots.
Now, we can go to another angle.
And this angle shows the shooting and what appears where the car makes contact with the agent who fires the shot, who is either -- the car is making contact with him, or he's pushing off the car, having fired those three shots.
COLLINS: Yes, and John, I mean, when you look at that. Because you can't see it from the two different angles, and we're showing them -- showing people all of them we've seen. The President shared this second one that we just are letting people see here. What questions do you still have this evening?
MILLER: Well, the first question is, it appears, when the vehicle and the agent make contact, he has already opened fire on the vehicle, and the vehicle is attempting to escape.
There's a bunch of issues here. One is, it is against pretty much all tactical policy of major law enforcement agencies to place yourself in front of a moving vehicle and draw your weapon. The DHS policy is not to shoot at a moving vehicle. It limits what can be done about shooting at fleeing felons, because it endangers the other people around.
Something that jumps out at me, and Chuck Ramsey brought this up earlier, the former Police Commissioner, that as he is firing at the woman who is in the driver's seat, he is firing literally a little more than a foot away from two of his partners who are standing in that same place in that line of fire.
So, it raises a number of tactical concerns, and that's how it's going to be looked at. What were the tactical issues here? What were the policy issues here? But most important, what were the legal issues here? Was that agent legally justified? How will he articulate why he thought he was legally justified?
And key to that, Kaitlan is, how will that be measured against what a reasonable agent with similar training would have done in the same circumstance? So, is the car coming towards him to run him over, or to escape? Should he have stepped aside to get off the X (ph) and de- escalate the situation, in that they could arrest that person later? Or should he be fired at a fleeing felon? And if so, what was the felony?
So far, the woman who ended up being killed in this had not committed a specific crime other than interfering with the agents--
COLLINS: Yes.
MILLER: --by having her car in the street. So, a lot of questions that are going to be needed to be answered.
COLLINS: And the Police Chief said earlier she was not the target of any kind of law enforcement activity.
John Miller, thank you so much for walking us through. That was very helpful.
And also, here tonight is:
The former Acting Director of ICE, John Sandweg.
And the former FBI Assistant Director, Chris Swecker.
And so, it's great to have both of you all here as well.
Because John, as you're watching those videos that John just -- John Miller just walked us through. Is it clear to you whether or not the ICE agent was justified in using deadly force here?
[21:15:00]
JOHN SANDWEG, ACTING ICE DIRECTOR UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA: No, Kaitlan, it's not clear at this time, and I think that's why we need this investigation. We need to follow standard protocols here, which is to have internal investigations, potentially the assistance of the FBI, the DHS inspector general. But we need to conduct those investigations.
But Kaitlan, I also think this is why it's so important too, for the department not to rush to judgment, not to just reflexively say, this was a justified shooting.
We need to follow the proper process here, get those facts, get to the answers to the questions that John was just -- John Miller was just articulating. And only then, after we've conducted a thorough investigation, looking at all the angles, interviewing the agents, make those determinations about where this went wrong.
COLLINS: Well, Chris, I think that's why, given so much of the investigation that needs to be done here, it stood out to me when Secretary Noem earlier, she was asked a few times at the press conference, in Minneapolis, when she got there tonight, about whether or not the agent had fired before the woman had taken the car, shifted out of reverse, to drive.
She quickly told the reporter, This is going to be investigated. I don't know yet.
But given she had already called it domestic terrorism as quickly as she did, do you think that's an assessment they can make and a conclusion that can be drawn that quickly?
CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: No, not at this time. Again, I echo John, and the other guests, this has got to be a full-on investigation by an objective party here. Supposedly, the FBI is doing an investigation as well as the State of Minnesota. I mean it -- you know, there are a lot of issues here. What were -- what was ICE doing in the neighborhood? Were they actually engaged in official duties? And was that -- I believe that there was a basis for an arrest here. You can't just block a federal law enforcement officer's car and impede them from going about their duties. If they had done that in front of a marked Minneapolis Police Department car, they would have been arrested. So, I think there was a basis for an arrest.
I don't -- you know, I think the question does remain, was there a basis for a legal shooting? And that's the question that has to be answered. And I don't think Kristi Noem or anybody else knows that at this time.
It's a real close call. I've reviewed that video quite a bit from all the angles, and I think there's a -- it is a real close call. And I think ultimately, it may be made by a jury. I mean, the question is, is it a legal shoot? Is there a criminal prosecution? Is there a firing, potential firing? Is there a potential civil suit? There's three different things going on at the same time here.
COLLINS: Well, and John, when you see that. People following ICE agents around, as they've been carrying out these enforcement operations throughout the country, is not a surprise. I mean, if you're on social media, you see a lot of this when they're in certain cities. Obviously, they've been in Minnesota this week.
Are ICE agents, are they trained in de-escalating in a situation like that? Kristi Noem had said that their car had gotten stuck in the snow, and then that's when this happened. What are they told to do in a situation like this?
SANDWEG: Well, historically, Kaitlan, you wanted them to de-escalate the situation, right?
But look at this. All of this is new. We've never had -- engaged in operations where you announced in advance they are coming to town and they are doing these operations. We never had ICE -- the tactics have changed to where ICE is more vulnerable to these situations where protests formed, or where protesters start following them around.
We've never had ICE agents directed to confront those agents. And in many ways, it seems to be rewarded, or at least immediately defended when they engage in aggressive tactics when they're doing crowd control, essentially, something that ICE is just not trained to do, is not part of the core mission.
So, all of this is different, and a lot of this is a byproduct of these shifting tactics of the Trump administration, this mass deportation effort, and really came on what looks a lot not like tradition -- certainly not traditional law enforcement tactics, where you go in and you do the operation, you can talk about and celebrate your success after it is done, after your agents are out of the danger zone, and after the targets have been apprehended. But rather, doing a lot of this in real time, publicizing the work that's going on, and frankly, even in advance. All of that's known -- all that's created, made situations like this more likely, but also created more vulnerabilities to put the agents themselves in greater jeopardy.
COLLINS: Well, and Chris, the other thing that stood out to me, though, was we're told by a law enforcement source that ICE officers are not required to wear body cameras in Minneapolis.
How would that have, I mean, changed what we're seeing not just from these videos that we do have, but to see it from the agents' body camera?
SWECKER: Yes, I mean, body cameras have become a game-changer, and dash cameras have become a game-changer in law enforcement, in general.
ICE apparently did not have a policy of mandatory body-worn cameras until February, and they are rolling that out, across the field -- field offices around the country. But I don't know whether this particular ICE agent had a body-worn camera or not.
I've reviewed many, many body-worn cameras. They really do tell the story, and they put you right in the position of the officer, and it helps you see what kind of decision that officer had to make and how much time they had to make it.
[21:20:00]
So, it's a shame that they -- I don't think that this one was wearing a body camera. Although, I did notice that he was actually videoing a protester as he approached the vehicle from the right side of the car, and then he was videoing the car from the front when the -- when the car started to pull out.
So, there's going to be some video from his own camera. It probably dropped when the shooting took place. But it will record, I think, the events that led right up to the shooting. So, almost a body-worn camera, because he had it -- if you look at it closely, he had that camera up, right before the car pulled out.
COLLINS: Yes, and obviously we'll be looking at all of these angles and reviewing this and seeing what those investigations do look like.
John Sandweg. And Chris Swecker. It's great to have both of your expertise here tonight. So thank you for this.
And we're going to continue to follow this breaking news, as you're seeing those protesters taking the streets in Minneapolis.
Up next. I'm going to be joined by the Minneapolis mayor, Jacob Frey, along with the Minneapolis Police Chief that you saw standing next to him today.
And also, later this hour, the former Vice President, Mike Pence, is here to respond. What is his take on the immigration crackdown that we're seeing, and his former boss' second term, the major headlines coming out of that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: In the aftermath of an ICE agent shooting and killing a 37- year-old American mother today. Minneapolis Mayor, Jacob Frey, had a message for ICE. And I should note, if you haven't heard it yet, it's unfiltered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREY: They are already trying to spin this as an action of self- defense. Having seen the video myself, I want to tell everybody directly, that is bullshit. This was an agent recklessly using power that resulted in somebody dying, getting killed.
And I have a message for ICE. To ICE, get the fuck out of Minneapolis. We do not want you here. Your stated reason for being in this city is to create some kind of safety, and you are doing exactly the opposite.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: In the hours after that, we heard from the Homeland Security Secretary, as she arrived in Minneapolis, and defended the ICE agent's actions, arguing that it was self-defense.
I'm joined tonight by the Minneapolis Mayor, Jacob Frey. And Minneapolis Police Chief, Brian O'Hara.
And thank you both for being here, because I know you have had quite a day.
And Mayor, can I just start by asking if you've had a chance yet, this evening, to speak or make contact with the victim's family.
FREY: I have not yet. Our staff is trying to get the right contact, and I can't imagine what they are going through right now. Obviously, all of my love, all the love from the 435,000 residents to call Minneapolis home is going directly to them.
COLLINS: And Mr. Mayor, I mean, in the aftermath, we just played what you said there, the comment that probably stood out the most from your press conference, telling ICE to get the eff out of your city.
Secretary Noem responded and said they are not pausing operations in Minneapolis, in light of this woman's death.
What is your response to that?
FREY: Look, the Chief and I have been talking about our concerns, not just privately, but very publicly. For over a month. We have stated that something like this, where either a civilian, a police officer, or even an ICE agent, was going to get badly injured or killed. And tragically, it's happened. Here's the thing. ICE is not here, as they state, to create safety in our city. If they were, there certainly have been mechanisms to do so. We have worked with other federal agencies to drive down gun violence. We've worked with the U.S. Attorney's office to see some of the lowest number of shootings on record, for instance, on our north side of the city.
What they are doing, what ICE is doing is terrorizing our community. They're tearing apart families. They are coming into our city, not abiding by the law, certainly not abiding by the Constitution of the United States, and they're creating situations. They are chaotic and dangerous, just like this. It's a problem. And my ask continues to be that they need to get out.
COLLINS: Chief, can you tell me what the latest is that you're hearing from officers on the ground tonight? I mean, we can see the aerial view of your city and just how many protesters there are. We checked in with our reporters who are on the ground. What is their posture this evening?
CHIEF BRIAN O'HARA, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT: So we've had a few thousands protesters that we believe remain in the city in at least three different locations.
We have canceled days off for all of our police officers and recalled personnel, and have asked for Mutual Aid from the Minnesota State Patrol and Hennepin County Sheriff's Office.
Our officers responded very quickly and did everything they could to de-escalate the situation, and they have performed very -- I'm very proud of how they have performed very heroically.
But I think the issue remains going forward, that whenever our officers have to be injected into this type of situation, we will see what happened in some cases today. And that's, they then become the point of people's frustration and vitriol over what has happened.
COLLINS: So, if ICE is staying on the ground in your city, are you worried about what that could mean for your officers?
O'HARA: The Mayor and I have been worried for weeks. And of course, I'm worried about what that means for the individual men and women of our police department, because we get called in to the chaos, and we are the ones that are responsible to try and get in the middle of that, and try and keep the peace. And unfortunately, we have seen many times where then our officers become the object of the attack.
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: And Mayor Frey, we heard from the White House earlier, the President who was saying that the ICE agent here could have lost his life. Kristi Noem was saying he went to the hospital.
What do you know about his current condition, or what happened to him today? I mean, we can see on the video, he's walking away after that moment. But what else have you learned? FREY: Sounds like you may know more than I do, or they may know more than I do about the present condition.
But like, I saw what happened with my own eyes, and that they were immediately calling this an act of domestic terrorism by someone who made like a three- or a four-point turn, who was clearly trying to exit the situation, is ridiculous. I mean, let's call a spade a spade here. I was listening to Kristi Noem speak, minutes ago, and it sounded to me like someone that didn't believe a word that they themselves were saying.
So, again, let's be straightforward and honest about this. This is not about safety. This is about terrorizing people. This was not about self-defense for an officer. This was about somebody that used their power in a fully reckless fashion. That's what I saw.
I'm not going to preempt the investigation that's going to take place both through the -- through, in part, the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension at our state level. But of course, we're sad. We're deeply frustrated by what we're seeing. We need to get ICE out of here.
COLLINS: Does that mean that you think he could potentially be facing charges here?
FREY: Again, I don't want to preempt the investigation itself. But you don't need a law degree to understand that when somebody is backing up and trying to get out, that's not an act of violence. That's trying to leave the situation.
COLLINS: Chief, one other thing we heard from the administration, from Secretary Noem, was she said that there had been three other separate car-ramming attacks in your city today. Is that the same information you have? And what can you tell us about those?
O'HARA: I don't have any specific information on any other vehicle accidents in the city. I know we have had federal law enforcement involved in a couple of motor vehicle accidents in the city, over the last several weeks. I believe there was one, yesterday, in Northeast Minneapolis. But I don't have any specific information on accidents today.
COLLINS: Thank you for that update.
And Mr. Mayor, I just -- after you told ICE to get the eff out of the city, I've seen a lot of Republicans here in Washington, criticizing those comments, saying that you're escalating tensions with that.
Can you respond to them? And what do you say to them tonight, people who criticize those comments?
FREY: I'm so sorry if I offended their Disney princess ears.
But here's the thing. If we're talking about what's inflammatory? On the one hand, you got someone who dropped an F-bomb. And on the other hand, you got someone who killed somebody else. F-bomb. Killing somebody. I think the more inflammatory action is killing somebody.
And so, once again, let's be real and just honest and straight-up about what's happening here. This is not OK. The way they're coming into cities, not just Minneapolis, but around the country, is not OK.
Whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, you should understand the importance of constitutional law enforcement. You should understand the importance of not discriminating, based on race, and randomly plucking people off the street, because they're Somali or Latino. And especially from what we've seen, you should also understand the importance of de-escalating tense situations, not killing people and yanking out a gun.
And so, again, I'm not going to preempt the investigation. It is important that we do that.
And at the same time, you want to make a big deal about an F-bomb? Let's make a big deal about our Constitution. I think that's probably the better route.
COLLINS: Mayor Jacob Frey. And Police Chief Brian O'Hara. Thank you both for taking the time to join us and update our audience tonight. We really do greatly appreciate your time.
FREY: Thank you.
COLLINS: And we're going to continue to cover this breaking news and what we're seeing out of Minneapolis tonight.
I'm also going to be joined, up next, by the former Vice President, Mike Pence. He's my source tonight live, and we'll get his take on what's unfolding in Minneapolis, and also the consequential decisions that are being made every day by his former boss as we kick off 2026.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're following breaking news this hour, as protesters have taken to the streets in Minneapolis, after an American citizen, 37- year-old Renee Nicole Good was shot and killed by an ICE agent today.
My next source tonight served as the Vice President in Donald Trump's first term. The former Vice President, Mike Pence.
And thank you so much, sir, for being back here on THE SOURCE. Obviously--
MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: You bet, Kaitlan. Glad to stop by.
COLLINS: --there's so much to talk to you about. And I would be remiss though, not to ask you about what we've seen playing out in Minneapolis today.
And each time -- you know, each presidency deals with situations like this. But when you see what has happened today, and those multiple angles of the videos. And then we see the President respond, pretty quickly after, blaming the woman who was driving the car, and saying that the ICE officer was acting, he said, it seems, to have shot her in self-defense.
Is that what you see when you watch that? Or do you believe it would be wiser to let the investigation play out?
[21:40:00]
PENCE: Well, I think, first, Kaitlan, it's important to remember we're talking about a human tragedy. I have three kids in their 30s. I can't imagine what that woman's family is going through, and our hearts, and our prayers go out to the family in their loss.
But this is -- this is a moment too, where I think we need to be careful to rush to judgment in any way. I mean, we're seeing different angles here. But anytime there's a police-involved shooting, there needs to be a detailed investigation. I'm confident there will be, and there'll be answers here. But making decisions, particularly about the efforts of the officer.
In my experience, as Vice President, I found both Immigrations and Customs Enforcement and Border Patrol officers to be some of the most dedicated men and women, in law enforcement, in the United States, and in the wake of the open-border policies of the Biden administration, where we saw some 10 million people come across the border.
These men and women are doing a hard job. They're going into these communities. And what I would like to see is more support from local and state officials for ICE agents doing a very hard job.
And I also think today should be a cautionary tale that people ought not to, as reports in this case suggest, people ought not to be harassing ICE officers. They ought not to be trying to obstruct them as they do their work.
And in any case, that you deal with law enforcement, as I learned from the time I was a little boy, when a police officer tells you to do something, you need to do it. You need to stop. You need to respect law enforcement.
And I think -- I think those are some of the lessons of today. But I'm confident we'll get to the bottom--
COLLINS: But would you be--
PENCE: --what happened here, and the system will work.
COLLINS: Would you be comfortable, as someone who's been in leadership, calling it domestic terrorism this quickly, before she was even publicly identified?
PENCE: Well, you opened the show and pointed out the fact, we don't know what was happening before then. I do know that the DHS Secretary said that there -- that this was a group of individuals that was harassing the ICE officers before this incident took place. But look, what's clear, at least from one of those angles, is she ran the car into a police officer. Tragedy ensued. I grieve for the loss of life.
But I can't help but think of that old biblical adage, that the soldier does not bear the sword in vain. And that's one of the reasons why we, as citizens, need to respect people in law enforcement. When we're told to stop, when we're told to get out of the car, you should respond, and respond respectfully.
But the harassment of ICE officers that's happening in cities around the country, the 1,300 percent increase in assaults on ICE officers and assaults using vehicles by ICE--
COLLINS: Yes.
PENCE: --to ICE officers, I think all of that has got to settle down--
COLLINS: Yes.
PENCE: --and recognize these people are doing a very hard job, and they're doing it to make our streets safe.
COLLINS: I did think it was notable, John Miller said that the training is to not step in front of a car in a situation like that. But obviously we'll see how this plays out.
But another major headline that the White House has been facing today, before this happened in Minneapolis, was Venezuela. And when you were the Vice President--
PENCE: Right.
COLLINS: --you were a major, a central figure in efforts to oust Nicolas Maduro. You recognized Juan Guaido as the rightful leader.
I know you support having Maduro out of power. Does it make sense to you why they're keeping his Vice President, Delcy Rodriguez, someone in his regime who was on the same illegitimate ballot that he was, in power in this moment?
PENCE: Well, thanks for acknowledging our work. During the Trump-Pence years, I was privileged to travel to South America on a number of occasions. Our country was the first nation on earth to recognize Juan Guaido as the legitimate president of Venezuela.
Nicolas Maduro wasn't so much a president of a country as the leader of a drug organization sitting on top of a country. He was a socialist dictator that impoverished his people, and I had long believed that Nicolas Maduro must go. And so, I commend President Trump for taking action as Commander-in-Chief, to unleash our armed forces. They did an exceptional work going in--
COLLINS: But should Delcy Rodriguez stay?
PENCE: --pulling him out. But that -- but that's--
COLLINS: In your view?
PENCE: --number one. I think you got to -- I think you got to commend the action itself.
[21:45:00]
What comes after that, and what we transition to there, I think, is going to be just as important. But all of it will take time. I recognize the fact that there has now been an agreement for 50 million barrels of oil, that that will go into a stabilization fund that we essentially have an embargo around Venezuela now, that will give the United States leverage to begin to move them forward.
I don't think Vice President Rodriguez has a record that would commend her as a good choice for a long-term leader there. Ultimately, I think the goal--
COLLINS: And that's why I asked, because--
PENCE: --the goal in Venezuela, Kaitlan, should be a future where the people of Venezuela have their liberties restored, have a free market restored, and through free and fair elections, we see a Venezuela governed by Venezuelans.
COLLINS: But you're talking about democracy, which is what you pushed for when you were the Vice President.
We have not heard the President talk about democracy that much. We've heard him talk a lot more about oil, this time around.
PENCE: Well, I've seen what the President's written and said about it. I also was -- I was encouraged to see what the Secretary of State said today about it. That the oil revenues would be used for a stabilization fund to support a move toward and a transition toward a more stable and peaceful, and I hope and pray ultimately, democratic Venezuela.
Venezuela was a failed state. 8 million Venezuelans fled that country all across South America, Central America and many into the United States. And a failed state radiates out that failure.
And so, I think it's absolutely essential that now that we have removed, really, a socialist dictator who had tyrannized and terrorized his people, now we need to do our part to make sure that the transition over time leads to a Venezuela governed by Venezuelans.
COLLINS: Mr. Vice President, I have more questions for you about the foreign policy decisions that are being made. If you'll stick with us.
We're going to take a quick break, and be right back with the former Vice President, Mike Pence.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: And I'm back with the former Vice President, Mike Pence.
And we talked about Venezuela. The other big foreign policy decision that has a lot of Republicans reacting on Capitol Hill, Greenland. Should the United States take Greenland by military force, as this administration has threatened? Or do you think that's ridiculous?
PENCE: Well, I just learned recently that when Secretary of State Seward did the deal to buy Alaska, it's not widely known, he also made an effort to buy Greenland. And I must tell you, when these conversations came up during our administration, that is clearly the way forward here. There ought to be some long-term financial arrangement that would allow us to acquire that land, just like the Louisiana Purchase, just like Alaska and beyond.
But to answer your question shortly. Military involvement, did you say? No. Denmark is a NATO ally. And despite some comments that have been made in the last few days, the fact is that military assault against a NATO ally would require activation of Article II, and every NATO ally would be called upon to either drop out of NATO or come to the defense of that country. And that's why you hear some of our very important allies in Europe pushing back on this very loudly.
But I fully support the notion of finding a way forward--
COLLINS: OK. So you support--
PENCE: --and an arrangement with Denmark--
COLLINS: --purchasing, not invading.
PENCE: --a purchase arrangement.
COLLINS: I have to ask you, because yesterday was the fifth anniversary of January 6.
PENCE: Yes.
COLLINS: You were not far from here on that day, obviously, at the Capitol.
The White House put up a website. I mean, there's no other really way to put it, besides that it denied reality. And because you did not -- because you certified the election, as you were legally bound today -- to do. It said that, Mike Pence Refuses to Act. It called, Betrayal of the President, and said that it was an act of cowardice and sabotage.
Would you care to respond to the White House?
PENCE: Well, not particularly. The first time he called me that was five years ago yesterday. And I didn't have time for it then, and I don't have time for it now.
But what I will address is, I think it's very offensive that the White House used taxpayer dollars and a taxpayer website to blame Capitol Hill police for what happened on January 6.
I mean, I understand the revisionist history that the President has tried to promote. But I think the overwhelming majority of the American people know what they saw that day, and I know what I saw that day. And I trust our actions and the stand that we took to the judgment of the American people, and to history, Kaitlan.
But to seek to push the blame for that riot and the violence that ensued onto law enforcement, the very people whose courage brought an end to that violence, and allowed us to reconvene the Congress the very same day, and complete our work under the Constitution of the United States, I think was deeply wrong.
COLLINS: You're in town. There's -- that caused a big split in the GOP, as you know.
There's also a split in a different faction of the conservative movement that's playing out right now, here in Washington. A lot of people may not know. But at The Heritage Foundation, there's been more than a dozen staffers, some of them incredibly influential there, that have left over this split, basically, when it comes to condemning or allowing antisemitism in your party. A lot of them left and instead came to the group that you founded, many of them started today.
What do you make -- do you recognize The Heritage Foundation as it is today when you look at it?
[21:55:00]
PENCE: Well, I had a longstanding relationship with The Heritage Foundation. I think that that institution contributed mightily to the conservative movement.
But not just in the recent controversy over being unwilling to distance themselves from the likes of this Nazi, Fuentes. But also, in recent years, to see that conservative flagship, essentially embrace isolationism on the world stage, begin to embrace big government policies, even marginalize the right to life, I think, has been disappointing and concerning to millions of American conservatives.
And when we founded our group, five years ago, it was simply to be one more voice in the conservative movement, in Washington, D.C. And I was deeply humbled when some of the leading policy thought leaders at Heritage came to us and said, We see you as a consistent organization committed to that traditional conservative agenda. And I was just at the office today, here in Washington, and proud to welcome these principled conservative men and women to the camp.
But I would tell you, that's the debate within the Republican Party today, whether we're going to stay true to that broad-based conservative agenda of a strong defense, American leadership on the world stage, limited government, fiscal responsibility, the right to life. Or whether we're going to follow the siren song of populism. And I think that's an important debate, going forward.
President Trump has gotten a lot, in my view, in this first year of his new administration, right. He's got, at the border, extending tax cuts, striking Iran, striking Venezuela.
COLLINS: Well, can I ask you on that front because--
PENCE: But there have been aspects of the agenda that represent more of that new -- new right populism, and that's a debate I relish being a part of.
COLLINS: And the midterms are coming up. The President said yesterday he thinks he'll get impeached if Dems take back the House. And one word is, do you agree with that?
PENCE: Well, I think it's -- I think it's very likely. I mean, they impeached the President for a phone call, when we were in office. And I expect in this highly divided partisan town.
But I'm going to tell you, as I've traveled around the country, the last five years, I really do believe the American people long for us to return to those timeless principles and values that really united the country the year that Ronald Reagan won 49 states. They were the very same principles that President Trump and I governed on. And whatever time I have left remaining in the public debate, I'm going to continue to be a consistent advocate for that broad mainstream conservative agenda.
COLLINS: Former Vice President, Mike Pence, thank you for your time tonight, as always.
PENCE: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Much appreciated.
And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: And we are continuing to follow breaking news that's coming out of Minneapolis tonight, where, earlier today, an ICE agent fatally shot a 37-year-old American mom. Her name is Renee Nicole Good.
And we heard from the Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem, as she was in Minneapolis today, defending the ICE agent's actions. She said that the woman attempted to run the agent over, in what she described as an act of domestic terrorism.
The Mayor has pushed back on that, calling it BS, saying he believes it was unjustified.
We'll keep you updated on that, and the investigation that is now playing out.
Thank you for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
