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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump DOJ Targets Democratic Leaders In Minnesota; Trump Says He "Convinced" Himself To Hold Off On Iran Strikes; NYT: Prosecutors In Maduro Case Tied Up Reviewing Epstein Files. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 16, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JEFFREY TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: But it's also worth noting that because of the Supreme Court's decision in Trump versus United States, it's completely impossible for the President to be prosecuted for any sort of bribery in connection with pardons.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Right. It's all legal.
TOOBIN: Because the Supreme Court said, official actions are off- limits. And pardons are official actions.
COOPER: Right. It's, yes, remarkable.
Jeffrey Toobin, appreciate you being on twice in the program.
Thanks very much. Have a good weekend. That's it for us. The news continues. Have a good weekend, everyone.
"THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: The Justice Department now investigating the Minnesota Governor and the Minneapolis Mayor. What my sources are saying about why and how Tim Walz and Jacob Frey are responding tonight.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
The two Democrats, who have spoken out the most about the surge of ICE agents into their city and state, now find themselves under federal investigation tonight. A person familiar tells me that Minnesota Governor, Tim Walz, and the Minneapolis Mayor, Jacob Frey, are both being investigated by the Justice Department. And a grand jury has issued subpoenas for both of them, though it doesn't appear that either have been served yet.
What we do know tonight, as we come on the air, is that the Justice Department investigation centers on possible obstruction of federal law enforcement.
Both the FBI Director, Kash Patel, and the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, were in Minneapolis today. And just a short time ago, Todd Blanche was on Fox News, explaining, or attempting to explain, why the Justice Department is taking this action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: When the Governor or the Mayor threaten our officers, when the Mayor suggests that he's encouraging, encouraging citizens to call 9-1-1 when they see ICE officers? That is very close to a federal crime. You cannot do that.
If you impede the work we're doing, you better -- you better be worried, because we're coming after you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But is that close to a crime? Elie Honig is going to join me in moments. He has a lot to say on this new investigation that we're learning about tonight.
And this comes, as Todd Blanche's boss, the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, said this tonight. Quote, "A reminder to all those in Minnesota: No one is above the law."
Now, Governor Tim Walz has not yet gotten this subpoena. He responded, though, to the investigation by declaring, in no uncertain terms, that he sees this as nothing more than a hit job.
He said, quote, "Two days ago it was Elissa Slotkin. Last week it was Jerome Powell. Before that, Mark Kelly. Weaponizing the justice system against your opponents is an authoritarian tactic." Governor Walz added that "The only person not being investigated for the shooting of Renee Good is the federal agent who shot her."
Mayor Frey also responded tonight, calling this an obvious attempt, in his view, To intimidate me for standing up for Minneapolis, our local law enforcement, and our residents against the chaos and danger this Administration has brought to our streets. He said, quote, "I will not be intimidated."
Now, both of these Minnesota Democrats have demanded that federal immigration officers get out of their community, after the fatal shooting of Renee Good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN): If you see these ICE agents in your neighborhood, take out that phone and hit record. Help us create a database of the atrocities against Minnesotans, not just to establish a record for posterity, but to bank evidence for future prosecution.
MAYOR JACOB FREY, (D) MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA: I have a message for ICE. To ICE: Get the (bleep) out of Minneapolis. We do not want you here.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: Since Mayor Frey made those comments, we've only seen more ICE officers in Minneapolis, and also more protests happening there, including this one today.
We've also seen in several other cities where ICE has been surged in by the federal government, the clashes have mostly consisted of protesters gathering outside a federal building, agents moving to push them back and make arrests and so forth, as we've seen with our Shimon Prokupecz on the ground.
And just as we come on the air tonight, a federal judge in Minnesota has just weighed in restricting ICE, and these other federal immigration agents who are on the ground, from using force against or arresting people who are peacefully observing, criticizing, or recording, their operations in Minneapolis, with the judge saying that those tactics violate their civil liberties.
My lead source on this tonight is CNN's Senior Legal Analyst, and the former Assistant U.S. Attorney, Elie Honig.
And Elie, I think, a big question tonight, given this is so clearly focused on the comments that Mayor Frey and Governor Walz have made, is whether or not anything they have said meets the definition of obstructing law enforcement.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Absolutely not. This is core protected First Amendment political speech.
And you can even tell, watching that clip of Todd Blanche, that he doesn't believe it, because he hedged himself. Very lawyerly. He said, Well, it's close to obstruction.
[21:05:00]
If you have public officials, as we do here, making political speech, even if it's explosive, inflammatory, aggressive, and then that causes people to protest, or to call 9-1-1? That is simply not obstruction of justice.
If they bring an indictment for obstruction, I promise you, they will lose.
And bigger picture, Kaitlan. Over the last week or so, DOJ has lost its damn mind. I don't have a better way to put it than this.
I mean, Renee Good gets shot nine days ago, right? Fatally shot. It's immediately clear that we need an investigation, that the minutia, the moments, the seconds, the movements, are going to matter. Three days ago, Todd Blanche announces no crime and there will be no investigation, we don't even need all the facts.
And instead, the reporting is they're investigating Renee Good and her widow for their associations, for who they're dealing with, for, again, First Amendment protected activity.
And now we learn that they're looking criminally at elected leaders engaging in core, protected First Amendment speech.
They're just off the rails at this point.
COLLINS: Elie, you're very fair in terms of calling balls and strikes, regardless whether it's a Trump case, or what's happening with the DOJ now. Has anything the Justice Department done since the shooting of Renee Good made sense to you?
HONIG: No. There's a couple core precepts here, right? One of the most basic things that any prosecutor does, and you don't have to be a prosecutor to understand this, is you investigate first, you see what the facts are, and then you draw your conclusion.
The fact that they came out and said, We're not even going to investigate. We're not even going to look at what happened here is against everything that you learn as a DOJ prosecutor. It's against everything I know Todd Blanche learned at the Southern District along with me.
COLLINS: So--
HONIG: And they flipped it on its head.
COLLINS: It doesn't make sense to you that they are not investigating the ICE agent here, even just to look at the actions and what happened and how this played out. But they are investigating the Mayor and the Governor.
HONIG: It only makes sense if you conceptualize DOJ fundamentally different from the way it's been run for the last half-century-plus. Which is, if you see DOJ as a tool of retribution, as a weapon of the executive branch? Then this makes sense. But if you see DOJ according to its traditional norms and principles under both parties? Then that -- you can't square that.
COLLINS: What about someone who looks at this and says, Well, they're looking at what they've said, they've been riling up the protesters. Which has been the argument from the administration, and what I've heard at the White House this week. And says, Well, they're not actually going to be charged. They're just doing this investigation to kind of put a marker down.
What would you say to that?
HONIG: So, first of all, look, I've been critical of some of the things that I've heard from Mayor Walz (ph) and from the Governor. I think they've said things that are -- that jumped the gun.
For example, I was critical of the Mayor, because he said, We want a full and fair investigation. And then in the next step, said that there was not self-defense. So, I said, Well, you're sort of doing the same thing. You're drawing a conclusion. But he's not the Justice Department, right?
And the other thing that I don't know, if DOJ even realizes this, by making these public statements, they're sabotaging themselves, because if they ever were to indict any of these folks who they've singled out explicitly? That one of the DOJ spokesperson tweeted out, FAFO, F Around and Find Out, just tonight. That's going to come back against them. Because any one of these people who gets indicted will have a very strong vindictive prosecution case that could get this thrown out. So, I don't know if DOJ realizes it, but they're undermining their own cause here.
COLLINS: And that's the head of the Civil Rights Division, Harmeet Dhillon--
HONIG: Right.
COLLINS: --who was tweeting that.
One thing that they've also said and been very critical of is they say, cops in Minneapolis, officials in Minneapolis and Minnesota overall, will not let federal officials into their jails when it comes to that.
HONIG: Right.
COLLINS: Is that something they could be under investigation for?
HONIG: I'm glad you asked that. I personally am an opponent of sanctuary cities, and I acted out when I was at the state in New Jersey, and at federal. I think that sanctuary cities policies are counterproductive. When state authorities say, We're not going to share information, we're not going to let you into our prisons to make arrests? Think they're a bad idea, bad policy. But it is not criminal.
The state does not have to -- does not have to cooperate with the Feds. You can't obstruct, but there's no affirmative obligation to cooperate. So, if you say, We're not going to share information, we're not going to let you into our state facilities? That's fine. That's not criminal. There's a big difference there.
COLLINS: Elie Honig, thank you for that.
Also, my next source here tonight sits on the Senate Homeland Security Committee. Democratic senator, Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut.
And Senator, when you hear that Mayor Walz or the -- Governor Walz and Mayor Frey are under investigation tonight by the Justice Department, what goes through your mind?
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Kaitlan, I can't help but think it's a cheap political stunt designed to silence the Mayor and the Governor, weaponizing and frankly, corrupting the Department of Justice.
As a former federal prosecutor, all of us know that you don't announce an investigation of a mayor and a governor, simply because they want their agents and investigators to be involved in potentially prosecuting a crime that occurred in their state and city.
[21:10:00] What's happening here is a coverup, blatantly, a coverup, because the federal government, the Department of Justice, wants to exclude state and local investigators, because they're afraid they're going to uncover the truth. And a lot of this truth is out there for everyone to see in the videos. But they are trying to silence the Governor and the Mayor. It's an act of retribution. It demeans the Department of Justice beyond words.
COLLINS: Is there any precedent that you can think of for a subpoena like this, what we've told, has been issued by a grand jury. Apparently, Mayor Walz and -- Mayor Frey and Governor Walz have not yet gotten it. Is there any precedent for them to get a subpoena like this, in your view?
BLUMENTHAL: There is no precedent, whatsoever, for top public officials, the Governor and the Mayor, who are simply trying to fulfill their responsibility, seeking justice, to receive a subpoena.
And your point that they haven't yet received? It is very telling.
COLLINS: Why?
BLUMENTHAL: Normally, a subpoena is issued secretly by the grand jury, and it's served before any public disclosure, so that there's no attempt to avoid the compulsory process to produce evidence, either to leave the jurisdiction, or to destroy documents. Most prosecutors want that to be in a serve before anybody knows about.
So, your sources have told you about it. I'm not asking you about your sources. But the fact that they allowed this information to be disclosed is very telling. It's not a serious prosecution.
COLLINS: So, what do you -- if you say it's not a serious prosecution. What do you think that Mayor Frey and Governor Walz should do when they get these subpoenas?
BLUMENTHAL: They should go to court. They should seek injunctions against it.
But you know what's also very telling is the Governor has really urged peace. Peaceful protests, turning down the temperature. Donald Trump is escalating, dialing up the heat, in his words and now in this supposed investigation.
COLLINS: Yes, I was looking at some of the comments that Walz and Frey have both made. Obviously, Frey (ph) was saying things like, We're not asking ICE not to do ICE things. He said, We want them to stop the unconstitutional conduct that is invading our streets each day.
We saw, obviously, Walz giving his address this week, where he was saying, You can pull out your phone. You can record these agents. You can call 9-1-1, if they want.
Do you believe anything that they have said or done would amount to criminal interference in federal law enforcement? BLUMENTHAL: It isn't interference. It isn't obstruction. It isn't in any way impeding a lawful investigation. It is public statements, First Amendment expression protected by the Constitution, by a public official.
Again, I repeat. It can't be repeated too often. Their police and their prosecutors, state and local, have a relationship to the community that would actually enhance a investigation and prosecution.
When I was a federal prosecutor, we welcomed state and local police being involved. Why? Because they are trusted by the community. They have sources. They also were on the scene first. They secured that crime scene. They collected evidence. So, this kind of interference with the prosecution is by the federal government, not by state or local.
COLLINS: What does it say about the Justice Department when we find out something like this, and it's actually not that surprising?
I wasn't that surprised tonight when we heard from sources tonight saying, Yes, they are under investigation. And I think that's because of what we've seen with Tish James here in New York. Or the Fed Chair Jay Powell, something that even Republicans were critical of this week.
What does that say to you about where the Justice Department stands tonight?
BLUMENTHAL: It says to me that the Justice Department has lost its way. It's out of control.
It also says to me that my Republican colleagues, on the Judiciary Committee and the Homeland Security Committee, ought to get some backbone, ought to grow a spine, stand up to the President, in the way that the people of Minnesota are doing, not just for their own sake, but for the country's sake. Because, the Department of Justice has such immense power.
If you are ever a prosecutor, you know that beginning an investigation, naming someone in indictment, has an impact on that person's life forever. Even if they are acquitted, eventually. There is probably a good part of the country that is thinking, right now, Well, the Governor and the Mayor must have been doing something wrong. But the fact is, they have been doing everything right here.
[21:15:00]
COLLINS: What would you say to someone -- because I can hear already, just knowing, after covering the -- covering Trump for as long as I have, they would say, Well, look how many times they indicted Donald Trump. Look how many times they made him go through cases. I mean, what would you say if that was their argument tonight?
BLUMENTHAL: Well, Donald Trump lost a number of those cases. Others were never brought to trial. But the comparisons are inapt, because what we have here is the announcements of investigations, not of cases where there is actually some action in court, whether it's Powell, or my colleagues, Senators Slotkin and Kelly and others, or now the Governor and Mayor.
They are using the immense power and stature of the Department of Justice and degrading it, costing its credibility. And I think they have no evidence to justify what they're doing. Whereas in the Trump cases, like it or not, there was a lot of evidence.
COLLINS: Senator Richard Blumenthal, thank you for joining us here tonight on this breaking news.
BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.
COLLINS: Really appreciate your time.
We have more on this breaking news up next, including the reaction that we're getting in tonight, after the Justice Department has launched an investigation into the two top Democrats in Minnesota. The Governor, Tim Walz. The Minneapolis Mayor, Jacob Frey.
It also comes on the heels of a new CNN poll that came out today on the economy, foreign policy, everything in between, showing what Americans really think of the President's first year back in office.
Plus, the other major assignment that some of the prosecutors on the Nicolas Maduro case are working on Jeffrey Epstein? More after this.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: And we are back with our breaking news tonight. As I've learned from a source that the Justice Department is now investigating the Minnesota Governor, Tim Walz, and the Minneapolis Mayor, Jacob Frey, over possible obstruction of federal law enforcement. They both say it's an intimidation tactic tonight. And this news comes after public comments both of them have made about the surge in federal officers to their state, after an ICE agent shot and killed Renee Good.
My political sources are here tonight, including:
Republican strategist, Brad Todd.
The former Deputy Assistant to President Biden, Jamal Simmons.
And our Chief Data Analyst, Harry Enten, who's here with a new poll.
But Brad, I want to start with you.
Because, we're hearing Tim Walz saying tonight, Look at this. You know, they're investigating all these other Democrats, Elissa Slotkin, Mark Kelly, also for comments that they made, in a video, telling people and military -- military members that they could not -- you know, that they had to resist illegal orders. Now it's obviously in response to comments that Governor Walz have made, and Mayor Frey have made.
What do you make of this? Do you see any reason to investigate either of them?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I've already said on CNN previously that the investigations on to Mark Kelly and others were a mistake, and I think these are a mistake as well.
But I do want to correct something that Senator Blumenthal said earlier. He said, Tim Walz has been trying to deescalate the situation.
That is not true. He said that there was an occupation by federal forces. He said that, in fact, that he put the National Guard on alert. He's done everything short of Fort Sumter. And Jacob Frey is not far behind him. He said that cops should fight, be prepared, to fight ICE in the streets. He told them to get the -- bad word -- out of here.
I mean, these two gentlemen have been incendiary. They've tried to incite the population, and they are not causing calm to happen. And I think that we need to make sure that's clear. That doesn't mean they should be investigated or indicted. But they are not helping the situation.
COLLINS: I want to listen actually, because what you just said reminded me of something that Mayor Frey said this week, when he was talking about this, because he has faced criticism after he told ICE to get the eff out.
He told me he didn't have any regrets about that statement. He looked at it in the scheme of someone has been shot and killed here. Me saying a cuss word is not that bad.
But listen to what he said this week about what ICE should be doing or should not be doing in his city.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREY: What we are seeing right now is not normal immigration enforcement. We are not asking ICE not to do ICE things. We are asking this federal government to stop the unconstitutional conduct that is invading our streets each and every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Jamal, when you hear that, do you see it in the way that Brad does, in terms of just -- he argues, it's incendiary. How do you see it?
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CO-HOST, TRAILBLAZE PODCAST, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't.
Governor Walz said very specifically, Don't take the bait. Right? He said that to the people on the streets in Minnesota. It's OK to film police officers when they do their job. Police never like oversight. They don't like civilian oversight boards. They don't like any kind of civilian interaction with them. But that is not what Walz said. Walz said, Don't take the bait.
Here's the thing, though. Three days ago -- four days ago, the President of the United States went on social media and said to the people of Minnesota, Fear not. Reckoning and retribution -- Day of Reckoning and retribution is coming.
I think today, we are starting to see the President execute retribution against people of the United States. The President of the United States threatened retribution against citizens of the United States. That's--
COLLINS: Well--
SIMMONS: --that's not insignificant.
COLLINS: It did come after the President was threatening to invoke the Insurrection Act.
Brad, I mean, he did -- the President basically backed off of that today, saying, he could do it, he didn't think it would be necessary. Do you think that this is in exchange for that, in terms of the kind of response the President wants to see on the ground in Minneapolis?
TODD: No, I've not expected him to invoke the Insurrection Act, and nor should he.
But I think that we have a situation here where Tim Walz and Jacob Frey. There's an old saying, If you break it, you buy it. Well, they helped create this problem. They helped create it, because they don't let state and local officials cooperate with ICE on immigration enforcement.
[21:25:00]
You're not seeing this kind of activity in Nashville, or Atlanta, or places like that, where states are cooperating and helping ICE get the worst of the worst.
It's only in a place like Minneapolis, where they've had a longtime separation ordinance. I mean, Minneapolis Police can't even help with crowd control at an ICE event due to the city ordinances. This is a place that is intent on forcing the federal government to go to extreme measures.
And they -- the federal government is going to make some mistakes, and that they certainly have. But if the state and local officials would cooperate on helping get the worst of the worst, this would be a lot better situation.
COLLINS: Yes, obviously--
SIMMONS: Kaitlan, I saw a video of ICE agents walking up to a man of Somali descent at a gas station, asking him for his license to prove that he was an American citizen. And when he showed it to him, their response was, Where were you born? What kind of American Are you? Are you American or naturalized?
There's no difference. If you're an American, doesn't matter if you've been naturalized or born here.
TODD: There's no difference
SIMMONS: There's no difference.
TODD: Agreed.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: I can--
TODD: I agree with you, Jamal. There's no difference.
ENTEN: Let's just talk to the politics--
TODD: I agree with you.
ENTEN: --politics of this. All right? You know--
COLLINS: Yes, because there's new numbers coming in about how people are seeing this even before this investigation news came out.
ENTEN: Right, exactly, before this investigation came out.
Look, there was the poll that we asked, which essentially was, Do you trust the federal government to investigate the Minneapolis Police shooting, the federal government? And I think it just sort of speaks to the trust of the federal government overall. And the overwhelming majority, more than three in five, you see on your screen say, 62 percent say, No, they don't trust the federal government.
And this comes on top of other polling data, which shows that ICE's net approval rating is way, way down from where it was, back at this point during Trump's first term.
It also shows at this point that Trump's net approval rating on immigration is way, way down from where it was, just say, at the beginning of last year. You know, it used to be a positive. This used to be a positive for Donald Trump, right? It was something he ran on. And now, his net approval rating on immigration is well into the negative teens, when you look at the average polling. This is a political loser for President Trump.
COLLINS: So what is it -- what does it look like for immigration on the President right now? Because this was one of his biggest strengths coming into office, in terms of what the southern border looked like. The President complains that aides don't want to put it in his speech anymore, that they tell him not to talk about the southern border.
We've never seen immigration be such a weakness for the President, like this, except for maybe when the family separations were happening in his first term, and he was getting so much criticism for that.
ENTEN: No, this is -- the numbers here are so much worse from where it was -- from where it was the beginning of his term.
And to be honest with you, the real turning point on immigration were the ICE protests in Los Angeles. Right? That was sort of the opening of this whole situation, in which people were going out to protest ICE, in these different cities, as the President sent ICE to these different cities, or the Trump administration sent ICE to these different cities. Before that, immigration was a plus. But the American people have turned on ICE, turning out they are on the side of the protesters.
And I think it really gets to also just how folks are seeing Trump overall, at this point, how they've seen his first term in office. What we're seeing is the clear majority see his first year in office as a failure. His first -- in his second term, the first year as a failure. 58 percent. That is the highest percentage who see a year into term two, number two, see the President, the terms that they have served, as a failure. That is higher than it was for George W. Bush. It's higher than they were for Barack Obama. And it is way higher than it was for Bill Clinton. So, Trump is breaking ground on these different things, and immigration is just a large portion of that.
COLLINS: Yes.
SIMMONS: The President's worst performing demographic, 18 to 29, or 18 to 34, year-olds, in your poll, he's under water by 39 percent. 54 million Americans fit in that demographic. 50 percent of them still live at home. They got $320 billion of student loan debt. They want somebody to deal with their failure to get off the ground and start their lives. That is what the President should be focused on.
ENTEN: And what a turnaround that has been among Generation Z. You go back a year ago, if my memory is correct, Donald Trump's net approval rating among Generation Z, those under the age of 30 was plus-10 points.
In the most recent CBS News poll, Generation Z, his net approval rating, negative 32 points. That is a 42-point switcheroo--
COLLINS: Wow.
ENTEN: --in just a year's time. He has lost Generation Z.
TODD: You know--
COLLINS: Go ahead, Brad.
TODD: The good news for Donald Trump is that he just has to beat the Democrats, and they're less popular than they've ever been in history.
But I will agree with you on one thing, Harry. He does have to be strong on immigration, for Republicans to have a good year. That's going to require some changes. But they -- he has to get his immigration numbers and his trust from the public back to where it was before, when this election -- the last election, ended.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, right now, they're only leaning in. We'll see if this changes that.
ENTEN: A mistake. It's a mistake.
COLLINS: Harry Enten. Jamal Simmons. Brad Todd. Great to have all three of you here tonight on this Friday night.
Up next. What the President said when he was asked today, who was it that convinced him to back off those military strikes he was threatening in Iran? Our deeply-sourced CNN Global Affairs Analyst will join me, right after this.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Did Arab and Israeli officials convince you to not strike Iran?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Nobody convinced me. I convinced myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was the President saying tonight that he ultimately decided to pump the brakes, when it comes to striking Iran. After CNN reported there was a big lobbying effort, actually underway, by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, along with two phone calls from the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, the most recent of which took place last night.
[21:35:00]
The President had been warning repeatedly, you'll remember, that the United States would take military action, if Iran killed peaceful protesters. Which they did. The death toll is estimated, and I say estimated because we still really don't know, to be more than 2,800 people.
As the President now says his focus is on the fate of Iran's political prisoners.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: When you urged protesters in Iran earlier this week to keep fighting in the streets, you said that help was on the way. Is help still on the way, or has your bar for intervention changed?
TRUMP: Well, we're going to see. As you know, Iran canceled the hanging of over 800 people. They were going to hang over 800 people, yesterday. And I greatly respect the fact that they canceled that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is CNN Global Affairs Analyst, Brett McGurk, who served as the Middle East and North Africa Coordinator at the National Security Council.
And I just wonder what you make of the President saying that he greatly, greatly respects Iran, as he put it, for halting these executions. Given we've seen body bags lining the street in Tehran this week.
Brett, what do you make of what the President said there?
BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, FORMER MIDDLE EAST & NORTH AFRICA COORDINATOR, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: I think, Kaitlan -- it's great to be here.
And if -- where I see this is heading, if the President is looking for an off-ramp -- I think, Kaitlan, if the President is looking for an off-ramp, because Iran is going to change its stripes, and stop executions, or stop killing protesters? He does not have an off-ramp.
This regime will not change its behavior. According to UN statistics, Kaitlan, in 2024, there are almost a 1,000 executions. Last year, the number was far higher. This is what this regime does. It's what they will continue to do.
And I think what is interesting is that the United States is moving now, military assets, into the region, including an aircraft carrier strike group, and that's really what you have to have in place in order to carry out the military operation.
So, I think there are two things going on here. There's probably a debate within the administration about which way to go, but also putting that resources in place, so when and if you do, do a strike, you have the assets to carry it out, because you could have a tit-for- tat, Iran might respond, then we have to respond. So, I think a lot is going on here.
I think it's very difficult for the President not to follow through after calling on the Iranians to stay in the streets, take over your institutions, a couple days ago. So, I think this has some ways now to play out.
COLLINS: Yes, he told them U.S. help was on the way. But as you noted, a lot of that built-up was in the Caribbean.
And I just wonder, you are someone who has negotiated the release of Americans who have been held hostage in Iran, including Jason Rezaian. Obviously, I know it's a meaningful day. It's the anniversary of that, actually, when it comes to him finally being able to be released.
What do you make of where the regime actually stands tonight, and how they're looking at what is coming out of the White House?
MCGURK: Yes, Kaitlan, it was 10 years ago tonight, I was in Geneva on a freezing cold tarmac, greeting Jason, and several other Americans, after securing their release from Iran as hostages.
And actually, one year ago tonight, I was leaving Doha, after finalizing the deal to free hostages from Hamas in Gaza, together with Steve Witkoff. That was one year ago tonight.
And both of these are the flipside of the same coin, because the Iranian regime, its proxies, Hamas, this is what they do. They use terrorism and hostage-taking, and it is what they are going to continue to do.
So therefore, if the President's new policy is what he has said it is, that this regime should no longer be executing the population, which is against it, and most of the population's against the system? He's going -- he's backed himself into a corner, and I think he's going to have to -- have to act.
And I have to say, Kaitlan, this system in Iran, you can see what happened in the last week. The people have completely broken from it. And this dynamic is now very much in place. The Supreme Leader is 86- years-old. Once he passes from the scene, there will likely be a secession crisis. So one way or the other, this is all coming to a head.
I very much hope the President follows through on his commitment to support the Iranian people. Look, military force can be a part of that, but you have to have a very broader policy.
I'd be focusing right now on lifting this communication blackout that the regime has put on Iran, allowing the Iranian people to communicate with each other and with the world, so we know exactly what is going on in there. And a number of other steps you can take.
But I think you're right. 10 years ago, freeing hostages from Iran. What did Iran continue to do? They continued to take hostages. They never changed their behavior. After the Hamas attacks into Israel, on October 7th, 2023 Iran made the choice to join in with Hamas on that multifront war against Israel.
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:40:00]
MCGURK: And so, they have made these choices. They have chosen terrorism over diplomacy and peace, multiple times. They will continue to do so. This is what the system does.
So I -- again, I'm looking at two things. Maybe the President hopes he can have an off-ramp, Iran changes its treatment of its people. That is not going to happen. And also, I think that these military deployments into the Middle East are quite important.
COLLINS: Yes. And obviously, that was the question. How could you trust, if that was coming from the Iranian regime that they had stopped killing them, how could you trust that?
MCGURK: You can't.
COLLINS: Brett McGurk, it's always great to have your expertise. Thank you for joining us tonight on that anniversary.
MCGURK: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And up next. We do have new reporting. The Justice Department office that is supposed to be prosecuting Nicolas Maduro, the ousted Venezuelan leader? The prosecutors there are also apparently bogged down when it comes to reviewing the Epstein files for release way past the deadline. What is happening inside that office? With someone who worked inside that office will join me next.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, as there are hundreds of Justice Department attorneys scrambling to process the Jeffrey Epstein files for public release, nearly a month after that legal deadline to release everything they had. The New York Times reports that even Nicolas Maduro's prosecutors are tied up reviewing the Jeffrey Epstein files. Sources tell The Times that nearly every attorney in the Southern District of New York is participating in the effort.
And we still don't even know how long this redaction process is going to take. Again, as I noted, it is way behind schedule.
And the SDNY is the busiest federal trial court in the country. Its prosecution of the ousted Venezuela leader who has been held here, ever since he was captured in that secret U.S. operation, it's the most high-profile case in its hands right now. But still, despite that, the Justice Department said earlier this month it has only released fewer than 1 percent of the Epstein-related files. That means there are more than 2 million documents to go.
My legal source, Elie Honig, is back with us.
And Elie, this is one of those headlines where you read it and you're like, What?
HONIG: That's exactly my reaction.
So, I want people to understand how much productivity is being lost in my former office, the Southern District of New York on real criminal cases.
COLLINS: Yes.
HONIG: So to illustrate it, I brought a prop here. OK? This is my actual day book from 2006--
COLLINS: Oh boy.
HONIG: --when I was a third year prosecutor at the SDNY.
And I found basically the same Friday in January. Let me just tell you what I as a junior prosecutor did, in this run-of-the-mill day, OK?
10:30, I had a plea in a heroin case.
11 o'clock, I went into grand jury on a human trafficking case.
02:30, I had a pretrial conference on a robbery case.
3 o'clock, I had a proffer with somebody who ended up cooperating against an armed robbery ring.
And 04:15, I had a pretrial conference on what would become a cocaine trial a couple weeks later.
Now, take that one average day in the life of a junior prosecutor, multiply it by the entirety, or near entirety the Southern District of New York, multiply that by weeks or months, and imagine how much they're missing out on, how much productivity has gone to waste, because they're going through and redacting these Jeffrey Epstein materials.
Now, some of the fault lies with Congress in the way they've built this law. They've put this burden on DOJ. But there was also a decision made by DOJ to put this in the SDNY, the busiest office, and basically debilitate the entire office while they're going through this.
COLLINS: So essentially, there's no time, even in your schedule, to be redacting Epstein files?
HONIG: Well, if I had to wipe out all these things, I would have lost all this progress on gun cases, violence cases and drug cases. And that is what's happening now. How can you work? Let's say you're on the Maduro trial. How could you be really working on that case, if you're instead, use it -- well, in the old days, we would use redaction ink, but redacting Jeffrey Epstein documents.
COLLINS: Well, I think also the question is, OK, so you're Nicolas Maduro. You're sitting. You've got five prosecutors who are on this case. His next hearing is March 17th?
HONIG: 17th, yes.
COLLINS: Pretty soon from now.
HONIG: Yes, there are going to be defendants who are going to start insisting on their speedy trial rights, and they're going to say, I'm sitting here in the MDC, it's miserable, I have a right to go to trial. And I don't know if the SDNY is going to be ready for that. They're going to have to triage this. They're going to have to put their people on the most urgent matters. But all this other stuff, all this proactive investigation that you would do, will have to come to a halt. It's just a matter of math.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, one, there was another high profile sex trafficking case, and a lawyer had told a judge that they had not finished going over the evidence in that that had to go to the defense, because they said half of the U.S. Attorney's Office is on the Epstein files. And we've got a trial starting next week. That's crazy.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: But can I also ask you about new pardons that came from the President today, including one -- I had to read this, because I was making sure I read it right. The President is pardoning someone who he already pardoned. So he's pardoning her a second time. He had commuted her case in the first situation back in 2021.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: Now he's pardoning her for a second conviction. This time -- OK, the first one was she was selling counterfeit bottles of 5-Hour Energy. This time, she was involved in the deception of resale of wholesale groceries. I'm not sure that she's learned her lesson.
HONIG: Yes. Resale of wholesale groceries. OK. Clearly, there's not been any deterrence. Clearly, there's been no lessons learned.
Look -- and Joe Biden is guilty of this as well. But our last two presidents have simply abandoned any principle when it comes to pardons. It used to be, it's supposed to be, a mechanism to recognize and remedy injustice. And instead, it's just become this mishmash of who has connections, who has access, and just utter inconsistency in application.
COLLINS: I mean, but and if you pardon -- if you commuted someone's sentence, and then they were convicted again--
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: --if you're President Honig, would you pardon them?
HONIG: I don't know if I'd ever get elected.
[21:50:00]
No. I think once I commuted someone? That's your one chance. You cross me twice? I think that's that.
COLLINS: Elie Honig, thank you so much.
HONIG: Thanks.
COLLINS: I would vote for you.
HONIG: That's one.
COLLINS: Maybe.
Up next. We're going to go behind the scenes, you're going to want to see this, of this week in Washington.
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[21:55:00]
COLLINS: This week began with the stunning news of a criminal investigation into the Federal Reserve Chair Jay Powell, and it ended with the breaking news tonight about a Justice Department investigation into the top Democrats in Minnesota.
Here's a behind the scenes look at this week in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: What that woman and what her friend were doing to law enforcement, not just ICE, is outrageous.
REPORTER: Mr. President.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Monday, January 12.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The President has made it quite clear is Jerome Powell is bad at his job. As for whether or not Jerome Powell is a criminal, that's an answer the Department of Justice is going to have to find out.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): If Donald Trump can use the threat of criminal investigation to influence monetary policy, then we'll have no independent Fed to speak of.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out. Get out.
KEITH ELLISON, (D) MINNESOTA ATTORNEY GENERAL: We're here to announce a lawsuit we're filing against the United States Department of Homeland Security, to end the unlawful, unprecedented surge of the federal law enforcement agents into Minnesota.
COLLINS: What do you make of what we're seeing play out in Minneapolis tonight?
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's pretty shocking stuff.
If what's in this lawsuit is remotely true? People in both political parties would say, Yes, you know what? The courts should step in. This is not right.
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: If you are not cooperating with ICE, they're going to send more ICE there to help look for these folks.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Tuesday, January 13.
TRUMP: We have a bad Fed chairman. He's bad in a lot of different ways, but he's bad because his interest rates were too high.
COLLINS: Kevin, If Jay Powell had cut interest rates, would he be the subject of a criminal investigation right now?
KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: President Trump and the White House Press Office has discussed that matter. I think I have nothing to add to what they -- I have -- I have nothing to add to what they said. COLLINS: But what's your view as someone who's a successor, potentially, a candidate to replace him?
HASSETT: I have nothing to add to what they said.
COLLINS: It sounds like you don't think it's appropriate that he's under criminal investigation.
HASSETT: I'm not going to have further comment on that.
COLLINS: Given the blowback that this investigation has generated, is it does raise questions about what is going to happen to the President's pick to replace Jay Powell as the next Fed chair.
When you hear about the Justice Department saying that they do not believe there's a basis for that federal criminal rights investigation into the ICE agent's actions, what's your reaction to that?
SEN. TINA SMITH (D-MN): Well, it just confirms the Justice Department, and the Department of Homeland Security, have no interest or no intention, in an unbiased way, investigating exactly what happened.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Wednesday, January 14.
COLLINS: Mr. President, on Iran, you said that the killing has stopped. Who told you that the killings have stopped there? And if it's the Iranian regime--
TRUMP: We have been -- we have been informed by very important sources on the other side, and they've said the killing has stopped and the executions won't take place.
And I hope it's true. Who knows, right? Who knows? Crazy world.
COLLINS: We've seen the body bags. So how do you trust them?
TRUMP: You've seen that over the last few days, and they said people were shooting at them with guns, and they were shooting back.
They told me that there'll be no executions. So I hope that's true.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible). Thank you press. Let's go.
COLLINS: The President kept saying a lot of, We'll see how this plays out, we'll see if these authorities in Iran that are telling them that the killings have stopped is true.
We've been talking about this scene that we're watching play out in Minneapolis tonight.
We knew this was a shooting involving a federal agent.
What we know from DHS is that the officer and the subject are both in the hospital, and both attackers are in custody.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Thursday, January 15. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shame. Shame. Shame. Shame. Shame. Shame. Shame.
LEAVITT: Insurrection Act is a tool at the President's disposal. As you know, it has been used sparingly, but it has been used by previous presidents in American history.
MARIA CORINA MACHADO, VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION LEADER: I presented the President of the United States the medal of the Nobel Peace Prize.
COLLINS: Hi, Control Room. Can you guys hear me?
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Kaitlan, does President Trump now possess this Peace Prize?
COLLINS: That was news to us when Machado came out and said that she had presented her prize to the President.
Even if she did give the President the physical Nobel Peace Prize that she won, Jake. Committee did put out a statement today, essentially saying that it is not transferable, and once it is announced, it cannot be revoked, shared or transferred to others, that the decision is final and that it stands for all time.
The President now threatening to invoke the Insurrection Act. Do you believe that he would have the legal authority to do so?
GOV. WES MOORE (D-MD): The President would have the legal authority to authorize the Insurrection Act.
But the question isn't his authority. The authority should come with an operational necessity. And both of those two things are missing.
[22:00:00]
ON SCREEN TEXT: Friday, January 16.
COLLINS: This is just breaking and we have confirmed that the Justice Department is investigating Minnesota Governor, Tim Walz, and Minneapolis Mayor, Jacob Frey.
And we heard from the Deputy Attorney General. He referred to what's happening in Minnesota as an insurrection, and said it's the direct result of a failed governor and, in all-caps, TERRIBLE mayor, who he accused of encouraging violence. And he said, I'm focused on stopping YOU from your terrorism by whatever means necessary.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Thanks so much for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
