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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Homan Acknowledges ICE Operations Have Not Been "Perfect"; WSJ: Gabbard Has Spent Months Hunting For 2020 Election Fraud; Trump Urges GOP To Vote "YES" On Deal With Dems To Avoid Shutdown. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 29, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SARINA PARTRIDGE, MUSICAL ARTIST (voice-over): --but I am afraid. How could I not be? I think you'd have to be not paying attention to not be afraid. And in those times, I think it's even more important to find ways to be in our courage together.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Sarina Partridge. She's actually on Spotify. I was listening. She has a song called "Grief," that's great. It's on Spotify.
You can hear more from Sarina Partridge, and others here in Minneapolis, experiencing all shades grief and loss in 15 minutes, on my new streaming show, "All There Is Live," 09:15 p.m. Eastern. It's at CNN.com/AllThereIs. I hope you join me in 15 minutes.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight. What President Trump just said about his plans for Minneapolis, that doesn't exactly line up with what his Border Czar on the ground, in Minnesota, told US.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, there's a CNN investigation that might challenge what you think you know about that fatal encounter that happened in Minneapolis. It's a moment-by-moment analysis of the movements of these two officers who were involved in the killing of Alex Pretti on Saturday, and it sheds new light tonight on how their actions escalated the situation before it turned deadly.
This comes as on the ground, in Minneapolis, this evening, actions might be speaking louder than words. As the Trump administration has been promising changes to the way it's carrying out deportations on the streets of Minneapolis. A lot of Minnesotans are saying they'll believe it when they see it.
The statement came actually from the President's Border Czar, Tom Homan. It was his first public comments that we've heard since he was abruptly dispatched to Minnesota, on Monday.
And while he was light on specifics, Tom Homan did signal this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: President Trump and I, along with others in administration, have recognized that certain improvements could and should be made. That's exactly what I'm doing here.
We will conduct targeted enforcement operations. Targeted. What we've done for decades.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Tom Homan also announced that he is working to eventually draw down the number of federal agents who are out on the streets of Minneapolis, a number that has surged in recent weeks to 3,000 of them. But he said, only if state and local officials cooperate.
As we listened to Tom Homan, this morning, he also tried to separate himself and, to a degree, the President, from the inflammatory rhetoric that we have heard from other people in the administration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOMAN: I do not want to hear that everything's been done here has been perfect. Nothing's ever perfect, and anything can be improved on. And what we've been working on is making this operation safer, more efficient, by the book.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Compare what you heard there to what White House adviser, Stephen Miller said, earlier this month, when he argued that ICE had a flawless track record of deporting non-citizens.
Or, compare what you heard there from Tom Homan to what Greg Bovino said, just last week, before he was moved out of Minneapolis as the head of that operation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREGORY BOVINO, BORDER PATROL COMMANDER: Everything we do every day is legal, ethical, moral, well-grounded in law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: In another shift, Tom Homan stood by the federal immigration officers, as he seemed though to reject this notion that we've heard from others in the administration, including the very top, with the Vice President, that they have absolute immunity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, UNITED STATES HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISOR: To all ICE officers: You have federal immunity in the conduct of your duties. And anybody who lays a hand on you, or tries to stop you, or tries to obstruct you, is committing a felony.
HOMAN: ICE and CBP officers are performing their duties in a challenging environment, under tremendous circumstances. But they're trying to do it with professionalism. If they don't, they'll be dealt with. Like any other federal agency, we have standards of conduct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, while we paid close attention to what Tom Homan said today, in Minneapolis. It was also here in Washington, what the President didn't say that stood out to us.
The President, of course, is someone who has long believed that he is his own best messenger. Traditionally, when there's been a strategy shift, or he realizes that something isn't playing in his favor, politically, he'll lead the charge to change it, and others will follow.
Which made it all the more unusual today, when he declined not once but twice, to take a single question from reporters, during his Cabinet meeting, and then when we were inside the Oval Office.
[21:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Mr. President, do you respond to any thoughts calling (ph)--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, press.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, press.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Over the course of that nearly 90-minute Cabinet meeting, there was no mention of the unrest in Minneapolis, despite how the story has dominated the headlines and even factored into staff decisions, that the President himself has made, as evidenced by Tom Homan being on the ground, in Minneapolis, and not Greg Bovino.
But also, instead of calling on every Cabinet member, like usual, which the President argued today was for brevity of this meeting. Instead, he only asked a select few of the people around that table, during the nearly 90 minutes that we were in the room, to speak. We heard updates from the Treasury Secretary, the EPA Administrator, and the Housing Secretary. One person, though, who did not speak and whom the President did not reference was the Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem.
The President did stop briefly, though, tonight, for questions, on the carpet at the premiere of the Melania Trump documentary, where he seemed to suggest to reporters the opposite of what we heard from Tom Homan, in terms of what's going to be happening on the ground.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Will you be pulling back immigration enforcement agents out of Minnesota?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: No, we want to keep our country safe. We'll do whatever we can to keep our country safe.
REPORTER: So you're not pulling back?
TRUMP: No, no. Not at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The President said, No, not at all, when asked to clarify, if he's pulling back on the ground in Minnesota.
I should note, what we're hearing from the White House, and as we're waiting to see what this actually looks like in terms of actions on the ground. There is a new CNN visual investigations tonight.
Our team has an eye-opening new analysis focused on the movements of these two officers, who shot Alex Pretti, on Saturday, before, during, and after they opened fire. Both have now been placed on administrative leave. That just happened yesterday, as we know.
And my colleague, Gianna Toboni, takes us through it, moment by moment.
And I want to warn you, the video you're going to see does shed new light. You do need to watch it. It is interesting. It is also disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GIANNA TOBONI, FILMMAKER (voice-over): This CNN analysis focuses on the two officers that raised their guns, seen here. One wearing a green shirt and black hat. And the other in a tan beanie. And sheds light on how their actions escalated the situation before it became deadly.
At 08:56 a.m., we see this officer in the green shirt for the first time in this video. Later, you'll see he's wearing a bulletproof vest, labeled U.S. Border Patrol, along with a patch of the state flag of Texas.
Here he is on Nicollet Avenue. You can see him shaking his spray as the sound of whistles blare in the background.
(WHISTLES BLARING)
TOBONI (voice-over): We see Alex Pretti for the first time here, in a video filmed from a car driving by. Pretti and three other people are across the street. They're standing next to a federal officer. Seconds later, an officer pushes Pretti to the sidewalk. Pretti is filming while stepping backwards. A moment later, this person falls to the ground as an officer begins to restrain him. The officer in the green shirt rushes over to assist him. Together, they drag this person off the street as protesters yell at the agents.
(WHISTLES BLARING)
TOBONI (voice-over): That first officer in the green shirt would next be seen sitting inside his car. Here.
We now want to turn your attention to this second officer, wearing a tan beanie.
According to a report from Customs and Border Protection's investigative body, officers ordered these female civilians, and later Pretti, to move out of the roadway, and they did not.
At that time, Pretti can be seen directing traffic past the officers and protesters.
The officer in the tan beanie shoves the two women in the middle of the street, prompting Pretti to yell out.
ALEX PRETTI: Do not push them into the traffic.
TOBONI (voice-over): Watching this shoving across the street, the officer in the green shirt is now standing outside of his car.
Meanwhile, the officer in the tan beanie turns his attention to Pretti, pushing him out of the way before shoving one of the women to the ground. Pretti steps between them and the officer pepper sprays him in the face.
As Pretti tries to help the woman to her feet, multiple officers grab him and pull him to the ground.
At this point, the officer wearing the green shirt and black hat approaches. You can see him reach for his spray here, and then attempt to use it on the people pushed against the car. It appears to malfunction.
As we slow this footage down, you can see that he then turns toward Pretti, who is being held down by other agents. According to CBP, they were attempting to take Pretti into custody and that he resisted.
Based on these videos, Pretti can be seen on the ground with more than five officers around him. At this exact moment, on the other side of the scrum, the officer in the tan beanie starts beating Pretti in the head with a metal spray canister.
[21:10:00]
Another officer in a gray coat removes Pretti's handgun from his waistband, directly in front of the officer in the green shirt here, though it's unclear if he sees it. He pushes the officer in the gray coat to the side, drawing his gun and pointing it at Pretti, who is down on his knees, bent forward.
One second later, we hear the first gunshot.
(GUNSHOT)
TOBONI (voice-over): The officer in the green shirt's gun now becomes visible again. We see him fire the second, third and fourth shots.
(SCREAMING)
TOBONI (voice-over): We can see the officer in the tan beanie raise his gun, and a fifth shot is heard. While the other officer's gun is pointed to the ground.
There is a one-second pause where Pretti is lying on the ground, face up. He appears to be completely incapacitated. Then the officer in the green shirt points his gun again.
(GUNSHOTS)
TOBONI (voice-over): Shots six, seven, eight, nine, and 10, are all fired, while Pretti is lying face up on the street. This officer fired at least four of those five shots. You can see the recoil in bullet casings eject. The other officers have all backed away by this point.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: It's a pretty damning analysis.
And CNN reached out to the Department of Homeland Security for comment on this analysis. Their statement is as follows.
Border Patrol Agents are highly trained and required to meet the highest standards of professionalism and law enforcement capability. Many of our agents have backgrounds in the military or local law enforcement and Border Patrol agents receive extensive federal training -- enforcement training, at Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers, just as ICE officers do.
I'm joined tonight by CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller, and our CNN Legal Analyst, Joey Jackson, to further break down what we just saw playing out in that video.
And John, it's hard to watch, actually, to see what happens in those moments. Obviously, it's slowed down, so you can break down each moment, when you watch it as it really happens. It happens very quickly. But from your perspective, from law enforcement's perspective, I wonder what stood out to you, John.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT & INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, what stood out to me, in this encounter, as well as the one that we discovered yesterday, that occurred 11 days before, is, arrest and control tactics, as they train it in the police academy, or at least the police academy I went to, is about team tactics, designated roles.
You get the arms, I'll get the legs. You have handcuffs. OK. If a gun appears, OK, who's taking the gun? It's about clear communication. OK, I've got the gun, I'm stepping out.
It's not clear from that video -- and we don't have the crystal-clear audio of what's being said in there. But it doesn't appear that the leadership role is filled there, that anybody is giving the commands, that they are acting in team tactics.
It seems to be a little bit of mayhem, where they're not sure exactly what they're arresting him for. And when they discover the gun and remove it, thus removing the threat, it's not clear that after they call out, Gun, gun, gun, that they call out, I've got the gun, I'm stepping out. So, those agents may have still believed, and it's the only way to explain this shooting, and then the additional shots, that they were still dealing with an armed suspect.
So, you've got a tactical failure there, that ends with the loss of a life. And the stakes going in, that he was annoying them and trying to defend that woman, were actually fairly low up till then.
COLLINS: Well, and also, I mean, just watching that at the beginning totally contradicts everything we heard from the Department of Homeland Security, on Saturday, in the initial aftermath, when they came out and told us he had a weapon, he brandished it, he was charging the officers. I mean, none of that is borne out by what you see in this video.
And so, Joey, when you watch it, and as we're breaking it down, and you're looking at the scene. Alex Pretti is completely incapacitated, as our reporter notes, when shots six, seven, eight, nine, and 10, are all fired. That's what it looks like when you're watching that. I wonder how you saw that moment.
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I mean, I think it's about time, Kaitlan, that we start believing our eyes. And our eyes are telling us that something is wrong here, very significantly.
And now let's go back to what you said about what we heard initially by authorities. Brandishing weapons, immediately justifying what the agents do. Why is that relevant to this conversation? Because if I can do whatever it is I want to do, and I'm going to be justified by top brass, and they're going to have my back? Why should I care what I do?
We heard Tom Homan talk about professional standards. I didn't see professional standards there. I look at it from a legal and from a human perspective. Where's the humanity?
[21:15:00]
You know, my father was a New York City police officer. May he rest in peace. Of all the weapons he had, he always used to tell me, You know what, son? The biggest weapon I have is my voice. Because you can be courteous to people. You can de-escalate situation. You can treat people like they matter, because they do. And if you treat them like that and respect them, I'll come home at night, and I'll be able to spend time with all of my children, and all the rest of it.
I don't see that.
Number one, in terms of de-escalation. Where is it? Why are you pushing women in the street? Why? What's the purpose of that?
In terms of everyone saying that he was injecting, that is Mr. Pretti, in a law enforcement operation. He was helping a neighbor. He was helping a community person. Right? Now, you may have some objectives in terms of whether he did it properly. But was he assaulting a federal agent? At the end of the day, where is all of that? What I see is -- are people who are acting in a way that's completely lawless and inappropriate.
Now, from a legal perspective, very briefly, Kaitlan, if you're going to justify conduct, there's three things that are relevant.
Number one, if you're shooting someone, where's the immediacy of the danger? Are you in immediate fear of death or serious bodily injury when you're shooting someone in the back? Is that what we see? Are you in immediate fear of death, or serious bodily injury, when they're laying down, looking like they're incapacitated and you're firing five more shots?
Number two, is your response proportionate to the threat that's posed? What threat is he posing?
And number three, where's the reasonability of the conduct of these people who are acting?
And so, this has got to change. There has to be a sea of change, or we're going to continue to see this repeatedly. It's hard to stomach. It's hard to watch as a person, as a human, as a lawyer. This is just not who we are.
COLLINS: Yes.
And John, in that moment where you see it's -- they pepper spray him, after he goes over to the woman who was pushed. Then there's, I mean, there's six agents over there. They've got him on the ground, as you can see from the different perspectives. When some agents are turning to the women, and then turning back to him, obviously the agent who then pulls the gun.
I mean, when you -- when you hear what the DHS is saying about their training in that, I mean, does that line up with what you are familiar with?
J. MILLER: No. And I harken back to what -- something that Tom Homan said today, which really rang true to me, which is, you know, he used the term, some of these have -- some of these people have been in theater for many weeks or months.
First of all, In theater, is a term we use in war. We shouldn't be referring to the deployment of law enforcement officers to U.S. cities in terms of war, even though that's what it looks like.
The second thing is, as Joey pointed out, it's the opposite of de- escalation. And you see the pepper spray, the shoving of the woman. And other agents are flocking there. And in their minds, and this may be an effect of they've been there too long, and they've been through too much, but that's creating a danger to the public and to themselves. So, when Tom talks about rotating people out, that was probably an idea for a few weeks ago.
But as they rushed to that incident, they don't know what they're rushing into--
COLLINS: Yes.
J. MILLER: --and they probably don't know it's not over much more than one agent is losing control.
COLLINS: Yes.
John Miller. Joey Jackson. Thank you both for joining us for that analysis.
Thanks to the CNN visuals team for breaking that down in such a way to allow us to see what those moments were like, and how they played out. It's really powerful.
And up next here. There is a lot to cover out of Minnesota.
Also, pay attention to what's happening in Georgia. 2020 election ballots were just seized by the FBI. It's not really clear where they are. Why, six years later, the President's Director of National Intelligence was on the ground as that warrant was executed.
Also tonight, those big talks between the White House and Senate Democrats on what are they doing about ICE funding here. And is the government going to shut down tomorrow night?
Plus, that bizarre turn of events in the Luigi Mangione saga. A man's alleged attempt to break him out of jail gets even stranger.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We do have some breaking news tonight, as President Trump just weighed in for the first time about that remarkable FBI search of an elections office that happened in Fulton County, Georgia, yesterday.
For years, the President has repeatedly claimed that widespread voter fraud cost him the election because of, in part, Fulton County. Despite the fact that there is no proof of that, no evidence, and his own Justice Department, in his first term, said the election was not stolen.
But the theory, as false as it is, has been revived now with yesterday's search and subsequent collection of 700 boxes of ballots, according to the County Commission Chairman there. What also stood out was that this search was overseen by the President's Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard. If you're wondering why the official who's in charge of the U.S. spy agencies and the nation's -- one of the nation's top national security officials, was involved in this? So were others.
Earlier tonight, my colleague CNN's Betsy Klein, asked the President why Gabbard was part of this FBI search, and this is what he told her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: She's working very hard on trying to keep the election safe, and she's done a very good job. And they, as you know, they got into the votes. You got a signed judge's order. They've been trying to get there for a long time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: This comes as The Wall Street Journal is reporting tonight that Tulsi Gabbard has spent months hunting for 2020 election fraud.
That hunt could go on for some time, since election experts, and many former top security officials who worked under the President, have said there is no evidence of widespread fraud from that election.
[21:25:00]
It hasn't stopped the President from claiming otherwise, though. And overnight alone, he shared on social media, posts claiming that this election was stolen as part of a conspiracy that involved President Barack Obama, the CIA, the FBI, China, military satellites, and even some Italians.
My legal and political sources tonight are:
Tom Dupree, the former U.S. Deputy Assistant Attorney General.
Bill de Blasio, the former Mayor of New York City.
And Doug Heye, who was the former communications director for the Republican National Committee.
Tom? I don't even know where to start.
TOM DUPREE, FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: There are a lot of places.
But I guess, let's start off with foreign interference, right? That may be the explanation as to why the Director of National Intelligence is involved. The President said, there was everyone involved in the conspiracy. It was a broad conspiracy. It was a vast conspiracy. And if the conspiracy involved the Italians, or some other nation? Maybe that's the basis for the Director of National Intelligence to get involved.
But look, there's no precedent for this. Typically, if you have an investigation into election fraud, it's carried out by the United States Department of Justice, as it was back when the 2020 election happened. And as we know, and as you reported, Bill Barr, other people, Rudy Giuliani, everyone, I think, Mike Lindell, everyone, was investigating the Georgia fraud, and they didn't come up with anything.
I think one danger here is that they're going to get people's hopes up, that the evidence is going to be found of corruption and fraudulent votes. They going to get people's hopes up. But like with the Epstein files, they're going to get everyone expecting a great release of evidence and information, only to have those hopes dashed.
COLLINS: And by people, do you mean the President?
DUPREE: Well, the President certainly has his heart set on it. And for him, this is like the Moby-Dick, the great white whale of the 2020 election, is getting evidence of those Fulton County fraudulent ballots.
COLLINS: Yes, and remind me how Moby-Dick ends, of course.
DUPREE: Yes.
COLLINS: And, Mr. Mayor, as I was thinking about this today. Because, we were going into the Cabinet meeting, where typically the President takes a lot of questions, in the Oval. I was thinking, this is going to come up. But Tulsi Gabbard actually wasn't present at the Cabinet meeting. But I thought it was going to come up.
And so, I went back just to double-check. There were two recounts in Fulton County, one that the Secretary of State there ordered, and one that the President himself wanted done. I mean, they've checked this, multiple times.
BILL DE BLASIO, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Yes. Look, I see three really clear things here.
One, I think that every occasion the President and his team can take to divert attention from the Epstein files, and create any other kind of controversy, that seems to be a really clear playbook over these last few weeks.
Second, obviously, Tulsi Gabbard trying to save her job after she was cut out of the Venezuela operation, and then, in many ways, doesn't seem appropriate to the title that she has.
But third and most important, look, as someone who worked in politics, you can tell when the other team thinks they're about to lose. It's quite clear to me, the Trump White House thinks they will lose the midterm elections. So now they are doing everything in the world, with the redistrictings, around the country, Texas and elsewhere, with this effort to muddy the waters in Georgia, anything and everything they can do to find a way to salvage an election they know they're going to lose. And the hope, I think they think here, is they will be able to disrupt normal voting procedures, in states like Georgia, and therefore potentially save their own skins. COLLINS: Doug?
DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Yes, look, I think that's -- there's some truth there.
But also, let's remember, politics is often about what have you done for me lately? Usually is about that. 2020? Not lately.
DE BLASIO: Right.
HEYE: And if I'm the Trump administration, I want to be talking all day every day: Here's why we've set up these Trump Accounts, because we're going to do great things for your kids and to build the economy. Here's what we're doing on inflation, because we want to make things affordable. We're going to make America affordable again.
And any time this administration, whether it's somebody trying to demonstrate to their audience of one, the President, or what the -- when the President goes off message? Yes, he certainly has concerns about the Epstein files. We've seen that. It goes off the message that voters want to hear from him.
And so, if you want to win these elections, it's not about what you do in Texas, because Democrats can do the same in Florida, or one seat in North Carolina versus one seat in Virginia. It's, What are you doing for me lately on what things cost, when I go to the grocery store, go to a restaurant, go to see some documentary that might have come out tonight with its premiere? Everything is more expensive, and the person in charge always gets the blame.
COLLINS: Yes, well, and Tom, I mean, on the note of what the President can actually do with this information, if Tulsi Gabbard, as The Wall Street Journal is preparing some kind of report that she's going to put out, I mean, what would that look like? I mean, we were talking, right before the segment started, about the statute of limitations, and what could even happen here.
DUPREE: Yes, well, I think the first thing that they would want to do is use it as evidence to show that President Trump was right, and that there was a problem in 2020 in the Georgia ballot counting. I think the second thing they would do, if they conclude that, is to look at whether there could be criminal charges brought against various people involved in the ballot counting. I think we're a ways away from that.
And to Doug's point. Look, I think one of the most striking aspects of this is the fact that the Director of National Intelligence has been spending so much time, this appears to be one of her top priorities, if not top priority, in finding this evidence. And she's got a lot of other things on her plate.
[21:30:00]
There are a lot of other things that, at least in my judgment, would warrant the attention of the United States Director of National Intelligence, at this point, in our nation's history, and our world's history. And maybe she would be better off focusing her energies and her staffs' energies on other areas. National security threats to the United States, and things of that nature.
HEYE: Georgia, the country. Not Georgia, the state.
DUPREE: There you go.
COLLINS: Yes.
DE BLASIO: Yes--
(CROSSTALK)
DUPREE: There you go.
COLLINS: I mean, you actually shared the debate stage with her.
DE BLASIO: I did.
COLLINS: We have a -- I think that was the CNN debate, right?
DE BLASIO: Yes, it was.
COLLINS: We have a picture of that.
I mean, what are your thoughts on Tulsi Gabbard? And I mean, I think there's something to what you said about her role and where her standing is with the President, because people do things, obviously, to please the President. I mean, this was the question that I had posed to her when she came out with the stuff about Russia, the Russia investigation, and President Obama.
DE BLASIO: I think from my reflection, from being alongside her in a campaign, is she is someone who has profoundly lost her way, philosophically, professionally, et cetera, to the point--
COLLINS: From then?
DE BLASIO: From then to now. I mean, for a long time, she tried to portray herself as some kind of reformist, progressive Democrat. Pro- Bernie Sanders, at one point. Now, all the way over to being a hard- right Trumpist.
But the thing that's dogged her throughout is her views of Syria, her views of Russia, that there's been a question of whether she even possibly fits the notion of someone who defends the United States against foreign interests, rather than facilitating foreign interests.
She's not going to -- look, Kristi Noem and Tulsi Gabbard are not going to be here much longer. Trump, at some point, is going to figure out that -- as he is backing away in Minnesota now, he did figure out that that was creating him a real problem. He's going to start shedding personnel who clearly have only deepened his problems.
COLLINS: Well, Doug, I mean, you're the former communications director at the RNC.
HEYE: Yes. COLLINS: When the President today -- and he did take a few questions on the red carpet tonight, as he was walking with the first lady, Melania Trump, on the Federal Reserve, and Minneapolis briefly. But to not -- to go in the Cabinet meeting. I mean, you've watched him, both presidencies. To not take questions there or in the Oval is incredibly rare for someone who likes to be his own messenger.
HEYE: Donald Trump is the most accessible president to the media--
DE BLASIO: Yes.
HEYE: --that basically we've ever had. And so, when he doesn't answer questions, it is sort of surprising.
COLLINS: It says a lot. For someone -- he says a lot. So when he doesn't say a lot, it says a lot.
HEYE: That says a whole lot.
DE BLASIO: Something says a lot (ph).
HEYE: And, look, ultimately, he needs to change the conversation. He knows that. That's why Homan not just had a press conference this morning, he had it at 07:00 a.m. local time.
In my entire career, I've had one press conference at 07:00 a.m. local time. I'm not a mayor.
DE BLASIO: Yes.
HEYE: And that was the day after an election that we won.
These things are very unusual. They want to pivot here. But again, as long as this is the conversation, whether it's Georgia or, obviously, what's happening in Minnesota, you're still not addressing the number one thing that voters feel every day of their lives.
COLLINS: Yes. And you've seen that in even a Fox News poll today, where voters were saying, they think ICE is being too aggressive, and the economy is not better than a year ago.
Great to have all of you here. Thank you all three for joining me tonight. Tom Dupree. Bill de Blasio. And Doug Heye.
Up next here. As I mentioned, there's a huge funding fight over ICE funding happening here in Washington. It still needs final approval in the House. And here's what the President himself had to say about it. With Democratic senator, Andy Kim, joining me as my source, next.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Democrats in Congress have been playing hardball, this week, as they pushed for changes to immigration enforcement tactics, while threatening no funding for the Department of Homeland Security and for ICE, unless Republicans came to the negotiating table.
Tonight, Republicans do be appearing -- are appearing to be doing exactly that. But the President endorsing an 11th-hour deal to avert another government shutdown, when he posted, quote, "Hopefully, both Republicans and Democrats will give a very much needed Bipartisan "YES" Vote."
That's a notable concession coming out of the White House, after the fatal shootings of two U.S. citizens in Minneapolis by those federal immigration officers. And what this deal would do is strip money from the Department of Homeland Security out of a larger funding package. And instead, they would have two weeks of funding, as Congress can negotiate a long-term agreement in the meantime.
Joining me tonight is a Senator who sits on the Senate Homeland Security Committee. Democrat Andy Kim of New Jersey.
And thank you, Senator, for being here.
When you saw the President's post tonight. Did it surprise you, endorsing this deal?
SEN. ANDY KIM (D-NJ): No, it didn't surprise me, because the President knows that the American people are against what he's doing in Minnesota, in all over this country right now. I mean, the American people are furious, and it's that pressure that is getting to him.
And that's why I just please, continue to urge the American people, stay focused on this, stay engaged, pay attention and be vocal about it, because this is certainly probably the time that I've seen the President most on his heels, and he's really feeling the pressure, and it needs to stay sustained on him until we can get the real changes we need.
COLLINS: So, when it comes to getting those real changes that you want. I mean, there's a list of demands. It includes having ICE agents not be able to wear masks, body cameras being required, a code of conduct.
I do think there's a question tonight of whether or not any of that will be a long-term agreement that you guys are going to come to. What's your confidence level in that?
KIM: Well, that's exactly what the American people are demanding right now.
[21:40:00]
I talked with some of my mayors today that came by the Capitol, and they were telling me about how our constituents are terrified right now, about what's happening. I talked to some leaders in New Jersey, the community leaders, that are telling me they're now carrying their passports around now, because they're terrified about what would happen if they were stopped.
So, this has to happen. I mean, this is something that it needs to be demanded upon. We cannot continue to have this effort, where they are using administrative warrants, not judicial warrants, that they're going out and harassing American people, threatening them, that we see this kind of lawlessness and the lack of an independent investigation, and just the blatant lack of accountability.
So, that is what we're pushing, not just for the going forward, but retroactive. We want this to be -- to apply to all of that money that they put forward with the reconciliation bill that funded ICE with tens of millions of dollars, frankly, tens of millions of dollars that could have gone, instead, to keeping the Affordable Care Act going forward and helping millions of Americans--
COLLINS: Yes.
KIM: --pay for their health care.
COLLINS: Well, and as Senator Fetterman pointed out the other night, even if the government had shut down tomorrow, ICE still has all of that funding. It's not like it would have shut down what ICE is doing.
But when you listen to what Tom Homan is saying on the ground in Minneapolis, as we heard from this morning. And then you hear the President tonight on the red carpet at this "Melania" premiere of the documentary, and he says, No, they're not pulling back at all. Which one are you listening to?
KIM: Well, look, we listen to Trump, because he is the one that's calling the shots here. Him and Stephen Miller. And I've often said, I believe Stephen Miller is the most dangerous person in this country, and he is the one that is driving so much of this extremism, left and right.
But look, I will also say Tom Homan has zero credibility, with me, with the Senate, with the American people. I mean, this is someone, might I remind you, allegedly took $500,000 (ph) bribe in a Cava bag. This is somebody who has talked in the past in support of just these brutal tactics. So, the idea that he is somehow going to be able to be a conciliary voice in this measure is absolutely wrong.
We are still terrified about what's happening on the ground. There are still raids happening in Minnesota at such a frequent and dangerous rate. And I am worried about what's happening, what's going to happen this weekend and going forward, which is why we need urgency.
We shouldn't have a President going to the premiere of his wife's documentary, while Americans are literally terrified in the street. We have Americans killed this week. Focus needs to be on protecting the American people, not just going and hanging out with our donors at the Kennedy Center.
COLLINS: I do think it was $50,000 that Tom Homan is accused of taking as part of that.
But on top -- you said you don't trust him. That's not really the vibe that we've been getting from Mayor Frey on the ground, or from even Governor Tim Walz. Do you think that they should give Tom Homan a chance, in terms of whether or not seeing if there is ultimately a change made on the ground? Or you think there's no chance of that?
KIM: Well, look, from my standpoint -- again, if I misspoke, yes, $50,000 in a Cava bag, yes, he was allegedly took -- I mean, again--
COLLINS: Still a lot of money.
KIM: Still a lot of money, and certainly something that leaves me to be deeply distrusting. I mean, he is somebody that has worked for these companies, like Geo Group, that are now profiting off of detaining people all across our country.
So, yes, he is somebody that has demonstrated that he supports these tactics. He has supported and has been part of this effort that has created this culture of violence and cruelty, within ICE, within CBP, within the Department of Homeland Security.
And I will say, if he is now acting, if he is now the one that is on the ground, leading these efforts, he should come before Congress. He is now performing a duty that is responsible and accountable to Congress, if he is planting Kristi Noem there in Minnesota. So, he should come before us and be held accountable for what is happening.
COLLINS: Yes, he said earlier, he would be on the ground, as long as it takes, in Minneapolis. Obviously, we'll be watching closely to see what he does while he's there.
Senator Kim, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
KIM: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. I'm going to be joined live by Philadelphia's District Attorney, Larry Krasner. He's facing criticism after he said this about ICE agents.
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LARRY KRASNER, PHILADELPHIA DISTRICT ATTORNEY: If we have to hunt you down, the way they hunted down Nazis for decades.
(CHEERING)
KRASNER: We will find your identities. We will find you.
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[21:45:00]
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRASNER: This is a small bunch of wannabe Nazis. That's what they are.
(CHEERING)
KRASNER: In a country of 350 million, we outnumber them. If we have to hunt you down, the way they hunted down Nazis for decades.
(CHEERING)
KRASNER: We will find your identities. We will find you. We will achieve justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Tonight, Philadelphia's top prosecutor, the District Attorney, Larry Krasner, is facing criticism, a lot of criticism on the right, for those comments that he made, this Tuesday, about federal immigration agents, including from Republican Pennsylvania congressman, Dan Meuser, who said that to Krasner's vow to hunt down ICE agents, he claimed, Is the behavior of a psychopath with a badge.
Larry Krasner joins me now.
And thank you, sir, for being here.
Can we just start, first, on your comments? When you said you're going to hunt down these federal agents? I mean, understandably, people--
KRASNER: Yes, that--
COLLINS: --had a lot of questions about that.
KRASNER: Well, I'll tell you, that KKK was very upset, they sent me communications. So did a bunch of other white supremacists. Yes, that's criticism coming from them. I had one explaining that I should die in a gas chamber, just like in the good old days of 1939.
[21:50:00]
There are some people who are all-in on a fascist takeover of this country, who do not like the comparison to what happened in Nazi Germany. But the point I was making is actually very straightforward. When you kill people, we can hunt you down and bring you to justice, in 10 years, or 20, or 30, years, just like what happened with the Golden State Killer, who was a serial killer in California. That's how it worked. It worked that way with the Nazis, but it also works with all kinds of other criminals who commit terrible crimes.
COLLINS: But couldn't you have made that point without comparing them to Nazis?
KRASNER: Why would I do that? The reality is, they're taking almost everything they do out of the Nazi playbook. And I say that as the son of a volunteer who served in World War II, who explained his experiences to me, and nearly all of whose uncles, my uncles, also served in World War II as well. Some of them didn't come back.
That's where we are. We're in a moment when there is a war against the truth, which is what fascists do, when the emphasis is on racism and xenophobia, which is what fascists do, when the tactic is to constantly say, The law is what is -- what it is not, and to try to undermine all of our institutions. I have no problem, saying, I view the leadership of this administration as working off a playbook they took from the Nazis.
COLLINS: I think the point is only Nazis are Nazis, and you can criticize ICE agents' tactics, the ones we have seen on the ground, without saying that they are like Nazis.
KRASNER: I didn't say all ICE agents are like Nazis. I was actually very specific, and I always am, that there are a lot of great federal officers, a lot of great state officers.
But when they commit terrible crimes, like criminal homicide, like obstructing the administration of justice by covering up a killing, when they do those things, they're like everyone else, and they have to be pursued. They may want to say that war crimes are not war crimes, but they are. They may want to say murder is not murder, but it is. And this country knows that.
COLLINS: John Fetterman, the Senator from Pennsylvania, was asked about these comments. Obviously, a fellow Democrat. And here's what he had to say.
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SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): That's gross, and that -- and I absolutely condemn that. Absolutely. Do not compare anyone, anyone to Nazis. Don't use that kind of rhetoric. You know, that could incite violence, and now that's -- I strongly reject that and condemn that kind of language in the strongest terms.
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COLLINS: He says that you could incite violence with the words that you used.
KRASNER: John Fetterman is the favorite senator of Donald Trump, the favorite Democratic senator of Donald Trump. He's said that repeatedly. And that's because John Fetterman has completely sold out the principles on which he ran for office.
I voted for John Fetterman. But what he's been doing, for quite some time, for whatever reason, and we all know there may be a few reasons, is completely unacceptable for anyone who actually believes in democracy and who actually believes in the rule of law.
COLLINS: But what about his point? He said that no one should be compared to Nazis, you shouldn't use that kind of rhetoric, because it can incite violence. And he was saying, he condemns it in the strongest possible terms.
He's making the point basically that I was just making, which is that you can criticize them, but comparing anyone to Nazis beyond Nazis is--
KRASNER: Well, I don't accept that. I'm a student of history. I know my history--
COLLINS: --pretty far to go.
KRASNER: I'm a student of history. I know my history, not just for my dad. We all know what happened during that era. There were people talking like him, who constantly said, Well, you know, Mr. Hitler has agreed to something. We have a piece of paper. Well, let's give him a little bit of this land. He won't take the rest. They were called appeasers, and they were completely wrong.
And the one who got it right, among others, was Winston Churchill, who took a very different tact. He understood what anybody who grew up in a public school, and dealt with bullies in the schoolyard understands, which is that you stand up to bullies. You stand up to Nazis. You speak the truth, even if some people find it offensive.
COLLINS: So, just to be clear. You don't have any regrets about what you said?
KRASNER: I think I told the truth, and I think they don't like it.
COLLINS: Or they don't like a comparison to Nazis, because a lot of people say only Nazis--
KRASNER: Well it might be hitting--
COLLINS: --should be compared to Nazis.
KRASNER: Well it might be hitting close to home. I mean, let's be honest. Why is it that the Ku Klux Klan endorsed Donald Trump twice, which he never repudiated? Why am I getting threats from people identifying themselves as being from the Ku Klux Klan? Is it OK if I say--
COLLINS: Well, I mean--
KRASNER: --Ku Klux Klan is like a bunch of Nazis?
COLLINS: I--
KRASNER: I think it is. I think that's a pretty fair comparison.
COLLINS: No one holds the KKK in high regard. No one's worried about offending them or what they say.
But there are other people, including John Fetterman, who is a moderate Democrat, which you're criticizing, and I understand that. But he's saying those words go too far in his book, and he's worried that it could -- it could call someone to hear that--
KRASNER: I mean--
COLLINS: --and do something violent to an ICE agent.
[21:55:00] KRASNER: I mean, Senator Fetterman, first of all, is not a real Democrat. He sold out to the Republicans, a long time ago, to the extent he even can keep track of what he's doing. Sadly, there's some things going on with him. So, he's not a moderate Democrat. I don't agree with that.
I think it is completely appropriate, when I talk about the Ku Klux Klan who are responsible, directly and indirectly, for the lynchings of more than four -- 5,000 people in U.S. history. I don't think there's anything wrong with comparing them to the Nazis. And those are the people who endorsed Donald Trump.
We are not the ones out there, wearing masks, with guns, killing people. There's two kinds of people doing that. Street criminals. And right now, it's federal agents. And we have to have a country, where the law applies evenhandedly, and it applies equally. And what that means is that we have to hold people accountable, when they have a mask and a gun, and they unlawfully kill people.
COLLINS: Larry Krasner, appreciate your time tonight. Thank you for joining us.
KRASNER: Thank you.
COLLINS: Coming up here. As I noted, there is a man who was just caught, allegedly trying to help Luigi Mangione get out of jail. The details of what happened and what exactly he said when he showed up where Mangione is being held.
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COLLINS: Tonight, a man is facing charges, after allegedly trying to free Luigi Mangione from jail, with sources saying that this person falsely claimed he was an FBI agent who had a court order for Mangione's release. And when officials searched his backpack, they found a barbecue fork and a pizza slicer. It's not clear what connection, if any, he has to Mangione.
Thanks for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
