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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
FBI Releases Photos, Videos Of Subject In Nancy Guthrie Case; Trump's Commerce Secretary Confirms Island Lunch With Epstein; Person Detained For Questioning In Nancy Guthrie Case. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 10, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT & INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: We've seen both neighborhoods around Annie Guthrie's house, and around the Nancy Guthrie house, also be flooded with investigators tonight. So, they're chasing leads, but they're also still out there asking questions.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yes.
John Miller. David Sarni. I appreciate your expertise.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: And we do begin with breaking news tonight, as there are major developments in the search for Nancy Guthrie this hour.
Right now, investigators are canvassing neighborhoods near her daughter's home, and there's new activity tonight in the Bitcoin account that was referenced in that still-unverified ransom note. As we're also getting a first look tonight at the subject who was caught on camera, approaching Nancy Guthrie's front door the night that she went missing.
We've seen a ton of law enforcement activity, as you can see here, just in the last few hours alone. CNN has confirmed now that a regional SWAT team and a bomb squad unit is on mission, right now, in Pima County. We don't yet know if that is connected to the Guthrie case, and we're still working to learn what exactly their goal is this hour. But this does come as officials have been knocking, going door to door near the home of Nancy Guthrie's daughter, Annie Guthrie. They've also been combing the surrounding area.
And our CNN affiliate tonight, KGUN, says that there has been activity in the Bitcoin account that was listed in that unverified ransom note that demanded $6 million in Bitcoin in exchange for Nancy Guthrie's safe return by 05:00 p.m. local time yesterday. That activity is pretty small tonight. It amounts to less than $300, we are told.
And Harvey Levin, the founder of TMZ, also got an unverified ransom note, as he told my colleague, Erin Burnett, earlier, that he had also personally seen the activity happening in that account.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HARVEY LEVIN, TMZ FOUNDER; RECEIVED RANSOM NOTE: So, about 12 minutes ago, we saw activity in that account.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST, ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT: Activity like what?
LEVIN: That's what I can't talk about. There are reasons I can't. But all I can say is there is now activity in that Bitcoin account.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, all of this follows what could be the biggest lead yet that we've seen from investigators.
The FBI released these downright chilling new images and surveillance footage today, showing this armed individual at Nancy Guthrie's front door. The person, as you can see here, is wearing a mask. You can make out arched eyebrows, and what appears to be a mustache in these images.
One video, it's only a few seconds long, that was released by the Director of the FBI, shows the subject slowly approaching Nancy Guthrie's front door. You can notice the person's gait, as they are moving toward the front of her home. And they have a flashlight in their mouth. They also have a backpack that has two strips of reflective material on each side, a pair of dark gloves, as well as what appears to be a weapon that is unusually holstered at the front waistband of their pants.
In another video, the individual is attempting to cover Nancy Guthrie's doorbell camera with one hand. The other is briefly attempting to mess with the device, as you can see here. The subject then, as they're confronting this camera, steps away, looking for something on the ground nearby, then bending down and grabbing parts of the shrubbery that was in Nancy Guthrie's front yard. The individual, then, still holding that flashlight in their mouth, attempts to use those plants, to try and block the front door camera view.
Now, NBC News reported tonight that the Guthrie family, when they saw these images, do not recognize the person that they see here. They are hoping that someone does tonight though.
Moments after these pictures were released, Savannah Guthrie urged the public to help find her mom, posting these images and writing, Someone out there recognizes this person. We believe she is still out there -- talking about her mother -- Bring her home.
I'm going to start tonight with my full team of investigative, cybersecurity and legal experts tonight.
We've got CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller here.
Our Legal Analyst, Joey Jackson.
The former FBI Deputy Director, Andrew McCabe. And also the Vice President of Intelligence at SentinelOne, Juan Andres Guerrero-Saade, also known as JAGS.
And thank you all for being back here tonight.
John Miller, let me start with you. Just given there's so much happening just in the last hour alone, last two hours, as we've seen today. In a case that has been dragging on with not a ton of developments day by day. What stands out to you from what we know this hour, and what we're seeing on the ground in Arizona?
MILLER: Well, what we're seeing is things moving at a frenetic pace.
[21:05:00]
The mobilization of the regional SWAT team for Pima County is a signal that they want to be ready in case they have a location or a door to hit. We don't know that they do. But mobilizing the SWAT team means it's just that less time from the time you put out the call for them all to respond. So, I think that's a significant lean forward on the part that they think a piece of information may come in that could be that urgent.
We also see a large number of tips coming in, I am told, based on the release of the video. And we don't know what those tips are. That could be anything from, I sold a ski mask to a guy in Arizona, which is unusual, to, I have a suspicious guy who lives next door to me who hasn't left the house in the last nine days. But those are the kinds of tips they've been looking for, and these videos have certainly stimulated that.
COLLINS: And John, what are you hearing from your law enforcement sources when it comes to what Harvey Levin revealed earlier to Erin, where he was saying, you know, they got that first note, it's still unverified, but it was a Bitcoin account, basically, this address, and he saw some activity in it.
And we later found out from the affiliate, CNN's affiliate, it's about $300. Obviously, that's a huge stretch from the $6 million, that note initially demanded.
How seriously are people taking that or looking into that activity?
MILLER: I think that, to use the metaphor, as somebody throwing a stone into the pond and seeing what the ripple is going to be. Now, that could be anything, from investigators putting in a small amount of money to see what happens. Does it move out? Does somebody pick it up? Does it go somewhere that they can identify? The way the account's set up, it's not going to bring them to a name, but it could bring them to a path.
Or, on the other hand, is that somebody who may be involved in this plot, saying, Let's move some money into it and see what happens. Or is it just someone who owed the guy $300 who put it there, because that's the number? Which, I think is probably the least likely of the scenarios. But it is likely not -- it is likely not anything that's supposed to change something in this case. It seems to be more like a controlled probe from one side or the other. And that's just my reading of it, not based on any information.
COLLINS: Yes.
Well, I mean, and JAGS, what's your reading of it, just in terms of, I mean, how much should we be attributing to this? Do you -- does that stand out as weird to you? Or what do you see in it?
JUAN ANDRES GUERRERO-SAADE, VP OF INTELLIGENCE, SENTINELONE: I wouldn't attribute too much to it. Just -- I agree with John. There's a -- the likelihood that this is something meaningful is very low. I think the best explanation right now would just be throwing a pond and seeing if -- are the funds just going to transfer directly somewhere else. Is there any activity?
COLLINS: Yes, and obviously John is still talking to sources. We'll check back in with him if he learns more.
I think people are paying attention to this. And the reason it caught our attention earlier was because there's just been so much happening, this afternoon, from seeing these images of that person, seeing the fact that a SWAT team has been mobilized. We still don't know if it's even in connection to this.
But when you look at this, what stands out to you from the images? Because I think a lot of people see these pictures, and say, There's got to be some way to identify who it is that's in that photo and in that security footage.
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Yes, there is. There's absolutely a way to identify that person, but it's not kind of the magic bullet that we're hoping for. It's not going to be an iris scan or something like that.
The way that this person is going to be identified is someone is going to recognize several seemingly innocuous details. So somebody is going to say, Hey, I know, I've seen that sweatshirt before with the stripes down the sides of the zipper that seemed to reflect at night and the black lines that go across the chest, and I had a pair of gloves just like that, and it's missing from my garage.
Like, any one of those details may not be enough, but the combination, the overlaying of those significant factors will be enough to jar someone's memory to think, Hey, that's the guy next door. I saw him walk in his house dressed exactly like that, something like that.
COLLINS: But if you're an investigator, I mean, can you get a good sense of how tall this person is?
MCCABE: Absolutely--
COLLINS: They've got on this backpack. It's pretty full. You can see how they're walking, approaching the door. I mean, if you're looking at that profile, what does it say to you?
MCCABE: It's a treasure trove of evidence, right? You can make all kinds of very close estimates in terms of his shoe size, in terms of his height, in terms of his weight, from simply the way he appears against the background around him, the brick wall or the patio with the pavers of all identical sizes. And so, there's a lot of information, there's lot of assessments we can take away from this.
[21:10:00]
Unfortunately, there's also a lot of anomalies. First of all, where's his support? It's highly unlikely that someone goes to a residence to kidnap and remove a resident of that home by themselves. It's hard to control another person by yourself, physically. It's hard to get them out of the residence, force them to comply, get them into a vehicle, that sort of thing. So, it seems unlikely. That, if that's what this was, a planned kidnapping from the beginning, there's got to be someone else in the area.
There's also got to be a vehicle. You can't get to that house without a car in the middle of the night. And you're certainly not getting away from that house, in the middle of the night with a prisoner, without a vehicle. So, is that parked in the street? Did they pull it up into the garage? Is there a way that we can get a beat on that?
There's also an image of him without the backpack. So, at some point--
COLLINS: Yes, what's up with that?
MCCABE: Yes.
COLLINS: Because Kash Patel, the FBI director, I believe, tweeted that picture, where he does not have a back -- and I say, he.
MCCABE: Right.
COLLINS: I mean, some people were saying it looks like a woman.
They just say, Armed individual. There is a picture with--
MCCABE: Right.
COLLINS: --I think we have it, where you can see the backpack there.
There's another picture that Kash Patel posted where the person is not wearing the backpack.
MCCABE: Yes, without knowing the sequence, like, did that come before the videos and the pictures with the backpack, or did it come after? And if it came after, did it come significantly after? Was there enough time for him to go out to the vehicle to deposit those things in it, and then come back to the house without the gun and without the backpack, and why would you want to do that?
Well, one reason you might want to do that is if you are someone who expected to be let into the home. So, in other words, someone who knows the occupant. Then, you might not want to walk up to the home in the middle of the night with a gun hanging off your belt and a backpack on.
COLLINS: But wearing a ski mask and gloves?
MCCABE: You can take that off pretty quickly, right, you are--
COLLINS: Yes.
MCCABE: Right? And that isn't necessarily consistent, but it raises the idea of, we have still not heard how the intruders got into the house. We've not heard about a broken door, about a cut window screen or a forced-open window. So, how did, if this is our intruder, which certainly looks like it is, how did this guy get into the house?
COLLINS: Well, and can we show the other image that Kash Patel posted, where it's a closer-up picture, where the person when they realize there's a doorbell camera there. And you can see the arched eyebrows, the mustache.
JAGS, some people have been taking this picture today, and using A.I. to remove the mask, or put it in color, and saying, we'll just look for this kind of a person. But can you put any stock in those images that you're seeing? I mean, this is flying all over social media tonight.
ANDRES GUERRERO-SAADE: None whatsoever.
So, there's definitely an expectation that A.I. is going to have an effect on the sort of investigation. And sadly, for the time being, it's not a very positive one, right? The notion of using deepfakes, for the most part, if it's going to have any effect on this, it's mostly raising the bar of what we can expect, or what we should expect for proof of life. Like, that is the one area where I would look at A.I., and say, Look -- this is going to significantly change how we take on these investigations.
But the deepfake part, it's not helping. It's definitely not helping. It's not going to help. It's a -- you know, it's a misunderstanding of how A.I. actually works in these situations.
COLLINS: Yes.
Joey Jackson, as you're just looking at all of this tonight.
I mean, I've been getting a ton of texts from people just saying, it feels like so much has changed in just the last few hours alone, where before we had these images, it wasn't clear who they were looking for or anything.
When you look at this tonight, how much do you think this has significantly changed this investigation?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it's significant, Kaitlan. I think if I'm the family, I'm heartened. Think about what we do have. And remember this. No piece of evidence is viewed in isolation. It's about the whole.
And before talking about the image, let's talk about other things. For example, the sweeping of that home. We know we have the intelligence community in the world, right? This is a very resourced investigation with the best and the brightest, and the best technology. We know they swept that home for everything and anything that could be in it, including DNA. Not only the obvious is the blood, but other things, whatever, hair follicles, skin cells, et cetera.
And now you actually have an image. And what does that image tell us beyond the clothing, Kaitlan? The image talks to, and speaks to, the relative height of the person, the relative weight, the relative size. Right? Now, understand now -- that they have that. That's going to be matched with other images that the investigators may have, around town, not only to that specific evening, but as to evenings before and days prior.
Was there a person surveilling the house who meets with that description? At that specific time, did the person when they were surveilling the house -- presumably they did, because they were focused and targeted on her. You have to believe that this was planned. Did they then not have a mask? Do these images capture the relative size and the weight, et cetera, of a person who might be unmasked at some prior time?
Now you have the Bitcoin exchange. Yes, it's $300, which is a nominal amount. Relatively, when you're talking about $6 million. But when you look at bank deposits -- I know we're not talking about a bank. I'm making an example.
COLLINS: Yes.
JACKSON: You generally, before you deposit a big number in, you put $1 in, $2 in, the bank reaches out to you just to confirm that that's the amount. So, is this indicative of something bigger than that? So, there's developments here, which I think are significant.
[21:15:00]
And so, you match this photo against other things that are happening, the cell tower things that they're doing, in terms of evaluating cellphone data, other evidence and information, and I think that this is a major significant development with the whole that might, in fact, drive law enforcement to who specifically was doing this. And, again, we have to answer the why. Motive is always important. Opportunity is always important. Means is always important.
But I'm heartened, if I'm the family by this and by all of the investigation that's been ongoing.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, it's the biggest development that we've seen, definitely, in recent days.
And John Miller, when you look at this person, as everyone was kind of digesting these images, the holster. And I mentioned earlier that it's unusually placed. I think most people who are familiar, with using firearms and/or carrying them, know that based on what you see in that image there, it looks unusually placed. And I wonder what that tells you, if anything, about this individual?
MILLER: Well, it brings back a discussion we had a minute ago, which is, you see him without the backpack, without the holster, standing in the archway. So, it appears as if he's sizing up the door, and he goes back to, let's suggest, that vehicle, gets the backpack and the holster, and he puts the holster right in front of him.
Now, anybody who has ever carried a gun, been trained with a gun, is going to take their strong hand that they would -- their dominant hand, they're going to use the gun for, put it on that side, so that they can reach it and come up with it. Putting it in front of you just invites anybody you might confront with that, to push you back, grab the gun out. It's actually more conveniently located for a person you might confront than it is for yourself. So, it's just a bad idea.
It tells us either that this individual has no experience with firearms. Or that he placed it there, so when he confronts the victim, the first thing that she might have seen is he's got a gun. If it's a real gun, if it's a prop gun, it might make a victim more amenable to following verbal commands. But that's just a theory. It's just--
COLLINS: Yes.
MILLER: --it's not where anybody -- not where anybody who carries a gun would carry a gun.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, and JAGS, just on the images there, on their own. It's, I think it was shocking to be able to see this, because we didn't know that we were going to get this clear of an image yet.
ANDRES GUERRERO-SAADE: Right.
COLLINS: She did not have a subscription to the service to the doorbell camera, and they had to go through a pretty extensive technical process to actually get what we're seeing here even tonight.
ANDRES GUERRERO-SAADE: Yes, this is actually most likely some pretty impressive work on the part of Google engineers. They would have had to -- if they're saying backend telemetry, this is something that they had to catch from servers, perhaps along the way on the stream, and not anywhere that's designed to actually store that data.
COLLINS: What does residual data mean? Can you just explain that to us?
ANDRES GUERRERO-SAADE: There's so many different ways in which data travels along the way, right? Think about, you have something on your device, it's recording, it might save it there, it might delete it, but we can still recover it forensically. It might go through a server that keeps it in RAM and cache. It's like it's keeping it in a way that it can access it quickly, even though that's not the place to store it. And then it may end up in some final server that decides, Hey, there's no subscription, we're not going to save it.
So, you can pick it up at any one of those points, if you're lucky.
COLLINS: Yes. And clearly, they were lucky here, and it's remarkable.
Great to have all of you here tonight. Thank you so much.
We are going to continue to follow every development here, given so much is changing by the minute here. And if you think you recognize the person that you see in those pictures, or if you have any information at all when it comes to Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, please call the FBI, 1-800-CALL-FBI. As John noted, they are seeing an uptick in information they're receiving since these images were put out tonight.
We have much more coming up from Tucson tonight, as we are monitoring that law enforcement activity there, and what exactly it means.
It also comes as we're tracking the details in another big story here tonight, in Washington, when it comes to the Epstein files, as the White House is now defending a senior aide to President Trump, a member of his Cabinet, who is accused of being inconsistent when it came to when exactly he cut ties with Jeffrey Epstein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: I did have lunch with him, as I was on a boat, going across, on a family vacation. My wife was with me, as were my four children and nannies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're monitoring new fallout tonight from the release of the latest batch of the Epstein files.
The Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, was appearing before Congress today. And as he was testifying, he attempted to explain the gap between these two statements you're about to hear, from Lutnick himself, regarding his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUTNICK: My wife and I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again.
I did have lunch with him, as I was on a boat, going across, on a family vacation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Newly-released emails from the Justice Department show that Secretary Lutnick actually stayed in contact with Jeffrey Epstein, even after Epstein had pled guilty to soliciting sex from an underage girl, and had to register as a sex offender. And that contact continued, including in business ties with Jeffrey Epstein well after, we heard from Lutnick in that interview just a few months ago where, he said that he and his wife distanced themselves from their neighbor in New York, in 2005, after just being inside of his Manhattan townhome.
Appearing before senators today, the Secretary tried, repeatedly, to clean up the record that includes the details of a family visit to Jeffrey Epstein's private island.
[21:25:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUTNICK: I did not have any relationship with him. I barely had anything to do with that person.
I literally met him three times over 14 years with widespread in between. That's all I can remember. That's all there is in the documents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And amid calls from Democrats, for Howard Lutnick to resign over the inconsistencies in those statements, this is what we heard in the White House press briefing today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Secretary Lutnick remains a very important member of President Trump's team, and the President fully supports the Secretary. I will just point out that there are a lot of wins in the news this week that people in this room have not asked about, because you continue to ask questions about the same subject.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, this story has stayed in the headlines, because there's new information, and survivors have been saying that they still want accountability here for what has happened.
The Justice Department, in just the last 24 hours or so, has unredacted more names in the Epstein documents.
You watched right here, on THE SOURCE, last night, as the Deputy Attorney General had said that he made public the name of the former Victoria's Secret CEO, that's Les Wexner, after Congressman Thomas Massie had gone to the Justice Department, been able to look at the unredacted files, and said that at least in one place, Les Wexner's name was baselessly redacted.
The Justice Department has also since unredacted the names of other people, including Epstein's longtime assistant, a former French modeling agent. They, along with Les Wexner, are listed in that 2019 FBI document as co-conspirators of Jeffrey Epstein's. Now, being listed as a co-conspirator doesn't mean they're guilty of any crimes. They were never charged with anything. But what investigators uncovered about people in Epstein's orbit is what a lot of people, including the survivors, want to know.
Republican congressman from Kentucky, Thomas Massie, is back here with me tonight.
And thank you, sir, for being back here.
I believe you went back to the Justice Department today. If you did, what more can you tell us about what you saw?
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): Well, I saw that Lutnick shared his phone number with Epstein, and that their assistants were setting up phone calls between them. So, there is at least that other connection.
I didn't find any new names today. I didn't have a lot of time to spend there. But the main -- by the way, it's a room with four computers, and it's busy all the time. There's always at least four congressmen in there. And the main complaint that I hear, as we search through these files, is that when you unredact some of the files, you encounter more redactions. And then when we ask the DOJ, Why are these files redacted? Why can't we remove the redactions? The DOJ says, Well, that's the form in which we received the files.
Now, here's the problem with that, Kaitlan. The legislation that Ro Khanna and I wrote, directs the Attorney General to produce the documents, but they have to give all the documents that are in the possession, not of the DOJ, but also of the FBI and also of the U.S. attorneys.
So, what's happened, it seems, is that the U.S. attorneys and/or the FBI have redacted documents, given them to the DOJ, and then the DOJ hasn't done their diligence to go get the original documents.
COLLINS: But the whole point of letting lawmakers go into that room is that you're supposed to be able to see what we cannot see, what is still redacted, so you can look at the redactions and basically verify that they are warranted.
And yet, you're saying even what you're looking at, that is supposed to be unredacted, is still redacted. Right?
MASSIE: Correct. Sometimes, you remove the black redaction, and you see a white redaction. And sometimes, you try to remove the black redaction and it's all completely redacted still. So, that's a problem.
Also, there are files that are referenced in the files we're reading, but you can't find those files in the document production. So, that's another problem.
And specifically, we're very concerned that we can't see the 302 forms. And I have reason to be concerned, because, as you and I discovered yesterday, live on air, when the Attorney General -- Deputy Attorney General, started unredacting files, while I was talking to you. They have over-redacted the files that they've released. They have withheld co-conspirators' names.
And by the way, one thing I would like to add to that -- about that document that listed Les Wexner in it, is that it's -- he's a co- conspirator, not of drugs, not of money laundering, but of child sex trafficking. That is -- that is the case that was being tried that he's a co-conspirator in.
And one more thing, Kaitlan. Our bill says that the DOJ has to release all internal documents, emails, notes, about decisions of whether to prosecute or not prosecute, investigate or not investigate. Well, that document was in 2019, where they considered him a co-conspirator. We need to see the document or documents where they decided not to prosecute him.
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: So, that document, yesterday, where it says co-conspirator, you're saying was where they were attempting to put together a child sex trafficking case against multiple people, but including--
MASSIE: Correct.
COLLINS: --the former Victoria's Secret CEO, Les Wexner?
MASSIE: Correct. And it wasn't an accidental redaction. He doesn't look like a young woman. I want to know, who made the redaction. Are they tracking that at the DOJ?
COLLINS: And you want to know also, which I think is a good question, which is, why that case wasn't ultimately brought. I mean, those were the internal deliberations that I believe Todd Blanche, when he held that press conference, said, they did not believe they were obligated legally to produce that.
MASSIE: Correct. But they are obligated to produce the decision about whether to prosecute or not prosecute. We anticipated this, when we wrote the legislation. That's why we included in there that they have to release internal documents about decisions. Typically, under a FOIA request, they wouldn't have to release that. That is why we put that exception in our bill.
COLLINS: So, you're going in there. You're saying that you see documents -- last night, you said you saw names that shouldn't be redacted, that were redacted. Today, you're seeing documents that are just redacted when you should be viewing totally unredacted documents behind this -- behind closed doors, in this private room. And that, you're also seeing, you know -- or you're not seeing documents that should be in there that aren't in there.
I mean, do you trust the Justice Department, at this point, right now, based on what you can see behind the scenes?
MASSIE: Well, if they'll admit that they're making mistakes and that their document production is not done, I can trust them. But I can't trust them if they say, as Todd Blanche did in his press conference that, This is it, there's no more, it's over. That can't be true.
And so, tomorrow, we're going to have Pam Bondi in the Judiciary Committee. So, I'll have five minutes to ask her these questions.
COLLINS: And do you think you'll get these answers?
MASSIE: I hope I do.
COLLINS: And what happens if you don't?
MASSIE: You know, it's hard to refer contempt or things like that, on an attorney general, to the attorney general. This is the problem that you run into. And so, it's going to be very difficult.
But we can compel other people to come testify, like the Oversight Committee is doing. I'm no longer on the Oversight Committee. I'm on the Judiciary Committee. But the Oversight Committee can compel some of these people that are named in these files to come and testify.
COLLINS: Yes. Have you heard from the Justice Department directly, or is it just the tweets at you that you've heard from them on--
MASSIE: There is--
COLLINS: --where they're posting at you.
MASSIE: There is communication between my staff and Justice Department staff. But I haven't heard, for instance, from Todd Blanche directly.
COLLINS: OK. And you mentioned Secretary Lutnick. You said that you saw in emails today. Was it Howard Lutnick directly, or was it an assistant sharing his phone number with Jeffrey Epstein?
MASSIE: Sharing his phone number and saying, We want to set up a call between the two.
And I'm pretty sure those calls happened.
COLLINS: Why are you pretty sure?
MASSIE: Because they -- you know, there's no email that indicates that it didn't happen.
COLLINS: Secretary Lutnick today, as you heard, you had called on him to resign, before he came out today and acknowledged that, yes, he did go to Jeffrey Epstein's island with his family and another couple, in 2012. Obviously, he had said that they'd cut off contact back in 2005.
Based on what you heard today, did that change your mind at all?
MASSIE: It solidified my decision.
Look, the problem isn't that he went to Epstein island. That's not a crime. It's not appropriate, I would say, to take your family to an island, where people knew that bad things were happening.
The problem is, how do you have confidence in the Secretary of Commerce who lied about it just recently? Like, that podcast wasn't that long ago. He lied about it recently. And then he was forced, only when he was sworn in, to give a truthful answer. And I think it's a matter of confidence in the people who are leading this country, and I don't have confidence in somebody who will lie like that.
COLLINS: House Speaker Mike Johnson said today that you are -- you should stop playing political games, and he said that Howard Lutnick is a great Commerce Secretary. What's your response to that, sir?
MASSIE: The Speaker has to do what Donald Trump wants. The Speaker right now, I think we're stalled on a vote in the House because he can't get the bill passed and he can't afford to lose any political capital. So what he's decided to do, instead of siding with the American people, or siding with our Republican conference, he's siding with Donald Trump, and basically doing whatever Donald Trump wants him to do over here.
COLLINS: Republican congressman, Thomas Massie, thank you for joining us again tonight. I appreciate you coming back here on the show.
[21:35:00]
MASSIE: Thanks, Kaitlan. Maybe my voice will come back next time.
COLLINS: Yes, we'll get you some tea. Thank you so much, sir.
MASSIE: Thanks.
COLLINS: And up next here, I should note, we are staying on top of the breaking news tonight. We are getting new details in tonight, as the FBI has released these images and a short video of an armed masked individual approaching Nancy Guthrie's home the morning that she disappeared.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.
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[21:40:00]
COLLINS: And we do have major breaking news, as the Pima County Sheriff's deputies and the FBI have detained a person for questioning in the Nancy Guthrie case. That's according to what a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation is telling CNN tonight. And I do want to note, that official stressed that this person has not been charged.
CNN's Ed Lavandera is on the ground outside of Nancy Guthrie's home. And Ed, what more do we know at this hour? I know it's kind of bare bones. But what do we know so far about this person who has been detained?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. Well, this is a quickly developing situation, so trying to be very careful about how we report all of this out, as this is continuing to unfold, we're monitoring as closely as we can.
But as you mentioned there, the Pima County Sheriff's deputies and FBI have detained someone, a person for questioning only, at this point, in the Nancy Guthrie case, and that, as you mentioned, according to a source close to familiar -- familiar with the investigation.
And it's important to stress that this is all developing very quickly in the hours after FBI officials released these video images and still images of the suspect approaching the home here of Nancy Guthrie, which you see behind me in the darkness now.
But you can see the video was come -- was taken from that front porch area. Incredibly dynamic video, as haunting as it is to look at, it was definitely something, and a major piece of evidence that was going to generate a great deal of phone calls and tips as people kind of parsed what they were looking at, looking for clues as to who that person might be. And we do know, in the hours that we have been covering and reporting on this today, that there have been a large number of tips that have been coming into, to authorities.
And now, this is an investigation that seems to be incredibly fluid, moving very quickly, as there is now someone in -- detained for questioning, and we will await to see where this goes from here.
But we do know that this is an incredibly active hour, as law enforcement investigators continue the desperate search for Nancy Guthrie. As Savannah Guthrie said in her video yesterday, this is an hour of desperation. And I think everyone involved in this case right now feels that at this very moment.
COLLINS: Yes, absolutely.
Ed Lavandera, thank you for that.
And John Miller is also joining me tonight, again, on this breaking news.
And John, a person being detained, being questioned. Obviously, as we noted, this person has not been charged. What else -- or what are you looking into when you hear this? Especially, given this comes just a couple of hours after those images, those striking and frankly chilling images, were released earlier.
MILLER: Well, let's walk through it. I mean, first of all, it's a very significant development, because this is the only time, at least that we are aware of, that a person has been detained or questioned in this as a potential suspect. So, it could be an extremely significant development, or, as sometimes happens in these matters, they could interview this person, they could look into things, and it could go a different direction.
But we're not getting to the main question, which is, if they have somebody detained, and they're questioning them, where is the victim? So far, no sign of the victim that we're aware of in this development. So, where could this go?
As they take a look into this person, they would also be looking into where does this person bed down? Where do they live? Where is their vehicle? Do they have a storage area? These are the kinds of things that as this developed in the investigative path, they might likely obtain search warrants for these locations, and go further into that.
So, we're at a pivotal moment, perhaps a significant moment, but it's too early to tell where this is going. What we can say is, while they're detaining this person and questioning this person, there's no indication that anybody has been charged.
COLLINS: Yes.
MILLER: And that's investigators from the Pima County Sheriff's Office who have been on this from the beginning, and their FBI colleagues, both on this lead.
COLLINS: What's the standard, John, just for people who don't know, in terms of detaining someone, to question them, in a situation like this? Is it just -- I mean, how much do they need to have to go on in order to take this step?
[21:45:00]
MILLER: Well, I mean, they have to have enough to bring that person in. If the person is coming in voluntarily or staying voluntarily, that's one thing. But there is a process, an investigative process, where at some point somebody is not free to go, and that can only go so long before a person is charged.
But this is a very recent development. And to be candid, we don't have enough detail on what they had to bring them in, or to hold them, to pull that forward.
COLLINS: Yes. John Miller, I'll let you keep reporting. If you hear anything else, please let us know, and we'll come right back to you in terms of what this means.
John Miller makes a great point there that this is the first known time that we are aware of, where someone has been questioned, since Nancy Guthrie went missing in this way.
Andrew McCabe is back with me, the former Deputy Director of the FBI.
As you are looking at these images coming in. And they have someone detained. What kind of questions are they asking this person, would you imagine?
MCCABE: Well, it really depends on why this person has been detained. If we can assume that if they have been detained, because the FBI believes that they are connected to these images, then they're going to start -- it's a very delicate process, because they likely cannot keep this person detained unless they, through the course of the conversation, develop probable cause. So, going to be very kind of low-intensity rapport-building approach to having a conversation with this person.
And then, eventually, they're going to get to asking details about the classic, Where were you on this day? Do you have an alibi for the night of -- my -- basing on the date here it was -- it would have been Saturday night into Sunday morning, right?
COLLINS: 10 days ago, yes.
MCCABE: 10 days ago.
And so, they're going to ask them all those sorts of questions. They'll start with all sorts of background questions. Where do you live? What kind of car do you drive? Where do you work? Because they want the substance for further leads to run down. And then, eventually, they will confront him with images of that person on the porch.
At some point, if they don't develop probable cause to believe that this is their person, they're going to have to let that person go.
COLLINS: Well, how long could that--
MCCABE: --if they wish to do so.
COLLINS: --could that be? What is that point?
MCCABE: You have a reasonable period of time to air out the evidence that you have, to ask questions about these images, to ask other questions that you think could lead to probative information. But it's not forever. It may be, it could be as short as a few hours, depending on what's developed over the course of the conversation.
Every time you get another fact that puts this person closer to being that image from the video, then you have a little bit more room to work with.
COLLINS: What you said earlier that stood out to me was when you see those images, of the person approaching the front of Nancy Guthrie's home, then it makes you wonder, was there another person helping them, driving the car, or helping them get to this area, as they're so calmly approaching the door.
Kash Patel, the FBI director, said persons of interest that they were looking into.
Now, I don't know how much we can read into that, because we've seen Patel walk some things back before.
MCCABE: Sure. COLLINS: So, I do want to stress that we should have a bunch of caution just around how quickly this is developing.
MCCABE: Yes.
COLLINS: What do you make of that?
MCCABE: I wouldn't put too much significance on his use of the plural on that sentence, because that could have been a typo.
But I still think it's highly likely that this person had the assistance or aid of someone else, a co-conspirator, and you can bet that that will be part of the questions that they are posing to this person who's in custody right now, particularly if that person is in custody because they think he's the person -- he's the individual in those images.
And the same techniques that you've -- that we've all seen and heard of before will be used. The appeal of, If you help us find this victim, if you tell us who you worked with, you can expect a better treatment through the system.
It's important, I think, to remember that in a normal case, you would have this interaction to bring somebody in for questioning. If it didn't go anywhere, you'd of course have to let them go home. But the investigation would really continue. You would maybe want to surveil them before you ever brought them in for questioning. You'd want to see, did they take you to a place where those articles might have been discarded or thrown away?
But this is very different. They don't have any time to work with, because we have an elderly woman who has medical challenges and physical challenges, who may actually be in custody somewhere. So, you're going to see the FBI really lean forward. Anyone who hits the radar as a possible match for that person is going to be brought in and questioned vigorously.
COLLINS: And it's also remarkable because it was not that long ago that they were saying there were no major leads or suspects in this case that they had as of yet.
MCCABE: That's right.
COLLINS: When they were going public.
MCCABE: That's right.
COLLINS: And Savannah Guthrie was begging the public for help. The FBI was asking the public for help here. So, I mean, just in the last 36 hours, this is -- this has changed a lot.
Also here is retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent, Jason Pack.
[21:50:00]
And Jason, just for anyone who's just joining us, what's changed here tonight is we know that someone has been detained for questioning only, that is based on investigative leads, when it comes to the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. Our sources are stressing, this person has not been charged tonight.
But I wonder what stands out to you, as we're learning this new information.
JASON PACK, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT, CEO, MEDIA REP GLOBAL STRATEGIES: Well, Kaitlan, what stands out is just the remarkable work, earlier, of the Operational Technology Division, engineers and scientists in there, putting this stuff from the slack, get together, to be able to get and release this photograph tonight to lead to where we are now.
So just in a matter of hours, similar to when we flipped the posters over at the Boston Marathon bombing, on stage there, we flipped those posters around. Within a couple of hours, they started to feel the pressure. They unfortunately murdered an MIT officer, and then tried to kidnap a person before they wound up in Watertown. Similarly, it seems like some people are feeling that pressure tonight.
At least there's a lead, where this person that may have been detained. Maybe we all hope it's the person. But even if it's not, it's somebody that may know him, somebody that's close enough that they were able to send tactical resources and investigators there.
Inside the command post, Kaitlan, the analysts are building what's called a baseball card, and that's everything that they know about this person that they detained. They may not know much now, but they're really building this baseball card to see everything they know, a criminal history, associates, all the available information that they can get. And they'll see where this person fits on the timeline, if anywhere at all. And hopefully, they'll be able to glean some information.
If the person is not directly involved with the person in the video, and is tangentially involved, they'll want to go make sure that they can get as much information to lead to the next person, including looking at the people -- the person's telephone, electronics, those types of things.
So, there's another kind of Ground Zero with this person starting out again, and hopefully it will lead to a positive result.
COLLINS: Yes.
And Steve Moore is also here with us, as we're looking and digesting this new information.
And Steve Moore, when you look at this, in terms of, it was only this afternoon that authorities released these remarkable images that we're even seeing, of this armed individual approaching Nancy Guthrie's home. You could kind of get a look, even though they're wearing a ski mask here in this. Obviously, not a lot of people in Tucson are wearing a ski mask, right now. When you look at that and see this connection tonight, that someone has been detained, and they're at least being questioned, when it comes to this. Obviously, they have not been charged yet. Do you believe those two things are tied together?
STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: Oh, absolutely. I mean, as much as the FBI is going to tell you all day that, We have no suspects, we have no persons of interest? They're fiddling with semantics here a little bit.
Because if the FBI was doing their job, and I'm sure they were, they probably had at least a half dozen potential suspects along the line they were following -- I'm sure some of them were under surveillance. And they just needed that push over the -- over the edge to find out which of their -- which of their leads were going to pan out.
My guess is that this was a situation where they got that -- got that video from the doorbell, and bam, they knew right away which one they were going to -- which one it indicated. So, this doesn't surprise me at all. I would guess that this person that they've detained has been on their radar for a while.
COLLINS: Brian Stelter is also here with us.
And Brian, earlier, the Guthrie family said they did not recognize this person. From what you can see that was -- that was in these new pictures that were released. Have you heard anything tonight, now that we know someone has at least been detained and is being questioned in this investigation?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Yes, that's right. Three words, Kaitlan. Holding our breaths. The Guthrie family, like so many others across the country right now, holding their breaths, wondering what the significance of this individual being detained is or is not. Because, we have not heard anything about Nancy Guthrie's whereabouts in the past few minutes.
We have heard that this happened south of Tucson, that this man was -- this individual was detained south of Tucson. For folks who have been in southern Arizona, that can mean a lot of things. South of Tucson, a whole lot of desert and scrubs, some suburbs, some very small towns. It's about an hour between Tucson and the southern border with Mexico. A lot of distance there, but mostly desert. We don't know exactly where this attention occurred yet.
But it is remarkable to consider where we've been since sunrise, now to sunset, and the experience of this family. This family, overcome by grief, still hoping that Nancy is alive. As Savannah said earlier today, she said, We believe she is still out there, we believe she is still alive. But there hadn't been any indication of proof of life recently. This family waking up and finding out about the new imagery, thanks to Google. And now, this word of the person of interest.
COLLINS: Yes. And obviously, we'll be following it closely to see what comes of this, if anything. Brian Stelter. Andrew McCabe. John Miller. Steve Moore. Jason Pack. Great to have all of you. And thank you for sharing your expertise and analysis with us.
And we are going to continue following the breaking news here now that a person has been detained for questioning in the Nancy Guthrie case. We'll be right back after a quick break.
[21:55:00]
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COLLINS: And we are following breaking news when it comes to the Nancy Guthrie case tonight, because a person of interest has now been detained, and right now is being questioned by Pima County Sheriff's deputies, and the FBI.
Andrew McCabe is back here with me.
And obviously, this is the key question tonight, is, to John Miller's point, this is the first time that we are aware someone is being questioned. And we don't know yet, but it could be potentially incredibly significant.
MCCABE: The pressure on that Sheriff's deputy, FBI agent, who are sitting in a very small room with that person and asking them questions right now is immense, because they know that the job that they do could be the first step towards freeing Nancy Guthrie. A woman's life literally hangs in the balance of how they conduct that conversation.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: And we don't really know anything about Nancy Guthrie herself--
MCCABE: We don't.
COLLINS: --at this moment?
MCCABE: We don't.
COLLINS: Obviously, we'll be following this closely.
Andrew McCabe, thank you for staying with us on this breaking news.
MCCABE: Sure.
COLLINS: Stay here with CNN as we are continuing to follow these developments, as they are coming in by the minute tonight.
Thank you for joining us here on THE SOURCE.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
