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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
FBI Releases New Details About Suspect In Guthrie Case; Homan Announces End To Immigration Operation In Minnesota; Johnson Hits DOJ For Tracking Epstein File Searches. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 12, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --it's one of the things that I never understood, until recently, when somebody on this podcast said it to me. It was that, you can still have a relationship with somebody who has -- who has died.
MARY HERRIDGE, MOTHER: I know it's like this weird gift, right, that you didn't expect.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: She's remarkable. You can watch the full conversation with Mary tonight, 09:15 p.m. Eastern, on All There Is Live. It's my streaming show, companion to my podcast. Find it online, CNN.com/AllThereIs, in 15 minutes from now. I'll see you there.
"THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: It has been 12 days since Nancy Guthrie disappeared. And tonight, the FBI is releasing new details about the individual that they are now calling the suspect in this case.
The person who was seen in those chilling images from Guthrie's front door, the night she was taken, is now being described by the FBI as a male, who is approximately 5'9" to 5'10", with an average build.
Investigators have also honed in on the backpack that he's seen wearing outside of Guthrie's Tucson home. The FBI says it's this black backpack, 25-liter Ozark Trail hike pack that has those distinctive reflective material on the straps.
The FBI has also since, as they're releasing this information, doubled the reward for information, from $50,000 to $100,000, as investigators in Arizona are working multiple leads to try to track this suspect down tonight.
We've learned that this white tent that was put up at Nancy Guthrie's front door today, briefly, was part of a testing procedure, actually, to recreate the nighttime conditions from when her capture happened. A source tells my colleague, Josh Campbell, that the FBI was trying to basically examine replica clothing and a backpack similar to what they believe the suspect himself was wearing, to see what it looked like through a doorbell camera itself.
The Pima County Sheriff's Office announced today that it's also investigating several pieces of recovered evidence, including multiple gloves. They use the word, plural, which stood out to us. And those items have now been submitted for analysis, which means this comes as investigators tonight are not just looking into that. They're also still asking the public for help.
They want any and all surveillance footage from within a two-mile radius of this intersection, near Nancy Guthrie's home, from January 1st to February 2nd of this year. Particularly, they want any footage of cars, pedestrians, or items, that local residents think are out of the ordinary, or at least suspicious.
That request comes after there was an alert to Nancy Guthrie's neighborhood, asking homeowners to check their security camera footage from two days in particular last month, January 11th and January 31st. That includes a notable request to keep an eye out for a suspicious vehicle seen around 10:00 a.m. on the 31st, which was the morning before she was abducted.
Leading us off tonight is CNN's Nick Watt, who was on the ground in Tucson, Arizona, tonight.
And Nick, obviously, there's a lot of questions about how this search for the suspect has changed and what it looks like tonight.
NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kaitlan, ever since they released that doorbell video, shot right here on Nancy Guthrie's porch, they released that just over 48 hours ago, this investigation has accelerated. That video is driving it. Thousands of tips have come in from the public. One mentioned a white van that they're now looking into. That van was seen nearby in this neighborhood.
And you mentioned that tent this morning. So just before 08:00 a.m., they put a tent up right by the porch. We were, of course, wondering why. Now, it turns out, what they were doing is recreating the nighttime conditions, the middle of the night darkness out here. That was when Nancy Guthrie was taken.
So, they recreated that, because they wanted to test out the clothing in the backpack, and look at it through those infrared camera -- through the infrared camera on the -- on a Nest Doorbell. Because, that can make colors look a bit different. They wanted to make sure that they were right in the brands that they were thinking for the backpack and also for the clothing. So, that is, after that is when they came out with the description.
We also think that in there, they were measuring. So, they obviously saw the guy on the video. They could see like where his head came up to, on the arch of the porch. They were in there measuring, OK, 5'9", 5'10", average build. So, that is the key piece of evidence right now.
But as you also mentioned, they have found some gloves and some other evidence that the Sheriff won't get into what that is. They have found some other evidence that they are working on right now. They will, of course, now be looking that backpack. Was that backpack sold at any store near here?
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Because the prevailing theory is that whoever snatched Nancy Guthrie was from this area. They think that, because of his ease moving around this neighborhood, the fact that he perhaps contacted some local TV stations. So, that video, and the analysis that they did today is key, and that will be driving this investigation as we go into the next couple of days.
You mentioned, of course, that FBI reward is now up to $100,000. And the appeal has gone out. Any video, anything that you saw that was suspicious, in a month, January 1 to February 1, we want to know about it.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes. And we've seen how valuable that footage can be. So hopefully there is something there that helps these investigators.
WATT: Yes.
COLLINS: Nick Watt, thank you. Let us know if you see anything on the ground tonight, throughout the hour.
We've also got a full team of investigative and legal experts here, including:
CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller.
Our CNN Legal Analyst, Joey Jackson.
And also, the retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent, Steve Moore.
And John Miller, just as we're looking about how this suspect search is developing. Especially, we've learned such a wealth of information about this person, on its own, in the last 48 hours. What is the latest that you're hearing tonight?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT & INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, what we're seeing here is, last week was all about a ransom demand that they were assessing the veracity of and trying to deal with. And then that contact, it appears, has been broken. What they moved on is to widen the aperture of the investigation, exponentially.
And what Nick was talking about is, they want so much video, from such a radius, but that is not a momentary tool. That is a library that they're building. And what they're telling people is, See if you find a suspicious car.
But if one person finds OK, that looks suspicious, there's a van parked by the side of the road, nobody seems to be in it that -- or there's a suspicious vehicle here. Well, when they look at that instant? That's one piece. But when they collect all those other videos, they're able to say, Well, wait a minute. Now we see that same car, 16 cameras away, passing by, going in this direction. Now we advance and we see it again over here. That puts it near the freeway. Maybe there's a license plate reader at that entrance we can pick up.
They're looking to string elements together. And it's not tonight, and it's not tomorrow, but as long as this may go on, they want to be able to keep returning to that bank, and exploiting it, as they learn more that becomes valuable.
COLLINS: So even if someone is looking at their camera footage and sees something that maybe seems a little random, but maybe not downright suspicious to them, they should still turn that in, because it could help in conjunction with other images, you're saying?
MILLER: In an ideal circumstance, and I don't know if we'll get there, in an ideal circumstance, they would be able to say to the provider, Just upload that month of video from the camera, provide it to the FBI. Let's build that bank. Let's say it's not an ideal circumstance. But at best, you could get people to go through it and say, OK, that's my neighbor, Bob. But I don't know this car. I'll supply that piece, this piece, and string it together.
COLLINS: Yes, it's a pretty specific timeframe, Joey.
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: And also, as you're looking at this, that coming as putting this white tent up outside, to try to recreate these conditions, and look at that, I mean, it shows what they're looking into, in terms of recreating that moment that we see on camera now.
JACKSON: Yes, without question, Kaitlan. Listen, this is about due diligence, right? So now you have a relative weight of the particular person. In addition to that, remember, what else we have. They're not telling us, but you're going to have the relative hand size. You potentially have footprints, right? Or the relative size of the shoe.
And then go further, we have the backpack. OK? They're going to look at the backpack. They're saying it's potentially purchased from Walmart. They'll do whatever they need to do to track it down. When was it purchased? What type of style is that?
Then you have the glove, right? Let's go in sequence. Then you have the glove. Now, the gloves could be disconnected from this. They may be very well-connected. What gloves am I speaking about? The gloves that investigators found. They'll do due diligence as it relates to that. By how? They'll look at the DNA, if any in the gloves. They'll see if there's any DNA that matches that. You put on glove, a lot of things happen, sweat, skin cells, et cetera. Who knows what's on the inside of the glove, the outside of the glove.
Then what else did you say? You talked about the fact that they're looking for all the surveillance in the neighborhood. And in that surveillance, are they going to pick up someone with this relative body size, the height, the weight, who was in there, at some particular time before this occurred, or at around the time it occurred.
So, these are pieces. What else do we know? We know they went into the home, they did the DNA there. So, it is a process. But it's a process where I think they are closing in, to a specific individual, who they believe could potentially be involved here. So, I think it's really important, major developments.
And let's not forget all the tips, that came running in, as a result of showing this photograph.
COLLINS: Yes.
And Steve Moore, as you're looking at this. Joey mentioned the height and the build of this person. It's pretty average. It doesn't -- it's not like this person is 6'5" and can really maybe be spotted or remembered by someone.
I wonder how helpful you think that is, in addition to what else Nick Watt was hearing, in terms of a white van that now they're looking into. It's not really clear how significant that is. But it just -- does give you an idea of the wealth of information they're looking at right now.
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STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: Right. And when you say height and weight, and you have that kind -- and the average build, it may not seem important at this point. If you had somebody who was 6'8" or something like that, that would be something immediately valuable. This is going to be valuable in comparison to other evidence down the road.
Just jumping off of what both John and Joey said. Say, you can find that backpack. All these -- all these barcodes that you see on stores, they don't just say something was sold. They say the exact second it was sold. And they can search their database for when were these backpacks sold, how many were sold. Then you can go to the store camera, and say, Oh, really? This says it was bought at register two. Then that 5'9" male becomes very important.
COLLINS: Yes, because obviously they would -- that potentially we could see other camera angles of this. I mean, I think of the Luigi Mangione hunt, when that was happening, and we saw him at that hostel, wearing a mask, but you could kind of get a sense of what he looked like, and then when the mask obviously dropped in that moment. You're saying this could potentially provide a moment like that as well here?
MOORE: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that person, we might even get, if he used a debit card or a credit card? Boom, you've got an address. So, this could be extremely important.
But again, like John and Joey said, this is the hard way of doing it. Usually, you're able to get this kind of information much earlier in the investigation. This is kind of like, My calculator is broken. Now I'm going to have to do it the hard way. And so, this is becoming the old-style shoe -- you know, gumshoe type of investigation.
COLLINS: John, what else stands out to you, just as we're watching this? I mean, one thing, we haven't heard briefings from the Pima County Sheriff or from the FBI. Does that strike you? I mean, should -- I mean, if they're looking for the public's help in so much of this, wouldn't it be helpful if they were holding briefings?
MILLER: So, what they've been doing, absent holding briefings, is they've been stirring the public pot of interest in different ways. The release of the video, you know, they sent a written statement out with it. But it was the video that literally brought a groundswell, a tidal wave of interest back to this case.
The calls they're putting out about what they're doing. We're searching the road. They explained that to us before they did it. They said, We're going to do it. It was covered by the media. The calls they're putting out to the neighbors.
What the Sheriff said was -- and the briefing is a double-edged sword, and I can say that from a person who's had to do some of those briefings.
COLLINS: Yes.
MILLER: You're going to be asked questions that you just don't want to answer. You--
COLLINS: Even if you have the answer?
MILLER: Yes. And you are going to be presented with questions where the media may have the answer, and you don't want to get into it.
This way, this is a push system. They're pushing information out, they're shaping it and controlling it, and they're getting the desired result. Because there is still a victim as the middle person between the good guys and the bad guys whose life may hang in the balance, they are being extraordinarily cautious about what statements and what information they put out and how.
But I think they're doing a very good job of -- what the Sheriff says, We're not doing a briefing until we have something to say. They're doing a very good job of saying, Here's a tool, here's another tool, here's another piece of information.
COLLINS: And I also kind of wonder, you know, this person is still out there. Are they watching this coverage, do you think? Are they looking and seeing how closely they are following them, if they feel like they're closing in? I mean, what do you make about that, Joey?
JACKSON: You know, Kaitlan, I would have to believe that, right? I mean, this is everywhere. This is news that is just riveting the country, and it should because of the unusual nature of it.
And quite frankly, if I'm them, I'm concerned. Why? Number one, it's so well-resourced, so many moving parts in here. Number two, you have the public's involvement. The tips are just rolling in. Number three, you now have the height, the weight of this particular individual. You've got gloves that are being found, right? You have other evidence. You have this backpack.
And so, if you're the person who potentially is responsible for this? Oh no, when's that next boot going to drop?
And of course, they found someone the other day. Didn't pan out. But things like that do happen. Doesn't mean the next time it'll be the same.
COLLINS: Yes.
MILLER: And I think you'd have to add, you know, from our friend, Mary Ellen O'Toole, the former FBI profiler, would say, For an individual who does a kidnapping, and rather than go to the victim's family with demands and ransom notes, goes to three television outlets? You can bet that before this kidnapping, they were a person who was very engaged in watching television.
And since this kidnapping started, I'm sure that's what they've been doing full-time. Because, A, their job is reflecting back on them. They may enjoy the attention. But B, it's their source of intel about what authorities know and how close they get as well.
COLLINS: Yes. And that's a good point with the briefings as well.
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John Miller. Joey Jackson. Steve. Great to have all of you here tonight. Thank you so much.
And of course, as we talk about the tips and the information here. If you have anything and know anything at all about Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, please call the FBI at 1-800-CALL-FBI.
We're watching for any developments in this story throughout the hour. We'll bring them to you as they happen.
And also tonight, we're covering that surprise announcement from the Border Czar, Tom Homan, this morning, where he says that the ICE surge in Minneapolis is coming to an end. What does Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey make of that? I'll get his reaction here.
Also tonight, a key Democrat says the Justice Department is spying on lawmakers who are looking at the Epstein files. How the Justice Department is defending this document that Pam Bondi had yesterday.
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COLLINS: Tonight, the Trump administration says it is pulling federal agents out of Minnesota. The surge of almost 3,000 of them into the Twin Cities is what led to clashes in the streets, and dramatic scenes like these, over the last two months.
And the fatal shootings of Renee Good and Alex Pretti at the hands of federal agents sparked even more nationwide protests, and eventually caused the White House to pull the Border Patrol Chief out of Minnesota, and replace Greg Bovino with Tom Homan, the Border Czar, who has been on the ground the last several weeks, and announced this today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, BORDER CZAR: We've seen a big change here in the last couple weeks. And it's all good changes.
With that, and success that has been made arresting public safety threats and other priorities since this surge operation began, as well as the unprecedented levels of coordination we have obtained from state officials and local law enforcement. I have proposed, and President Trump has concurred, that this surge operation conclude.
A significant drawdown has already been underway this week and will continue to the next week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The fallout from what happened in Minnesota is still being felt on Capitol Hill, where there's a huge fight over immigration funding that is still underway, and has basically guaranteed there will be no deal on funding the Department of Homeland Security by tomorrow's deadline, meaning, there will be a shutdown there.
But this moment might be encapsulated best by what happened here, also on Capitol Hill today, where Republican senator Rand Paul was pressing senior immigration officials, while they were testifying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): It's clearly evident that the public trust has been lost. To restore trust in ICE and Border Patrol, they must admit their mistakes.
If you don't admit that there's a problem, then we're not going to get anywhere.
Is yelling at ICE officers or Border Patrol, is that a form of domestic assault on the officers?
RODNEY S. SCOTT, COMMISSIONER, U.S. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION: No, sir.
PAUL: Is filming of ICE or Border Patrol either an assault or a crime in any way, Mr. Scott?
S. SCOTT: No, sir.
PAUL: Mr. Lyons?
TODD M. LYONS, SENIOR OFFICIAL PERFORMING THE DUTIES OF THE DIRECTOR U.S. IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: No, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: As that is reckoning on Capitol Hill. I sat down with the Minneapolis mayor, Jacob Frey, about where his city goes from here.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Thank you for being here.
How do you see the administration's announcement that they are ending their immigration surge in your city?
MAYOR JACOB FREY, (D) MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA: Obviously, it's a step in the right direction. I know that there will be hundreds of thousands of people that are extraordinarily relieved and at the same time, will believe it when we see it.
This has been an operation that has been devastating, even catastrophic, to families, to our immigrant community, to small and local businesses throughout our city. And so, it's kind of a set of emotions that I'm experiencing at the same time, and I know that I'm not unique in that.
Of course, there is great relief, but it is cautious relief, and we've got a road to go here as we make this big comeback.
COLLINS: I mean, you famously told ICE to get the eff out of your city. So you're viewing this with skepticism, basically?
FREY: I don't know that it's necessarily skepticism. It's more making sure that we actually see the conduct change on our streets.
In Minneapolis, collectively as a city, we've been through a lot over these last couple of months. Our immigrant communities have felt the gravity of what has taken place quite acutely. And so, I don't think it would be fair to simply do a victory lap and celebrate the exit of ICE before they actually leave.
But again, we are optimistic. I am hopeful. The expectation is that Operation Metro Surge is coming to an end. And to be exceedingly clear, the people that deserve the credit for this operation ending is the 435,000 residents that call Minneapolis home. It's the activists, it's the hockey moms, it's the dads that have stood up and said, You know what? This is not OK. This is not what we're about.
It has not been ideological. It hasn't been partisan. It's about standing up for our neighbors. And so, I think a lot of people want to talk about it being resistance, which, of course, it is. But it's about something far more powerful than that, which is love and caring about people. And that's a condition and a sentiment that I think we should all have for each other.
COLLINS: And they were protesting, I mean, in subzero temperatures, some days--
FREY: Yes.
COLLINS: --as we were watching this play out.
FREY: Yes.
COLLINS: It was about 3,000 federal agents in total at the most, I believe, that was -- that was in your city. Do you have an expectation of what that number is going to look like with Tom Homan's announcement today?
FREY: Yes, the expectation is that it is somewhere in the range of what we saw before Operation Metro Surge.
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Now, look, this was never about ICE doing normal ICE stuff. ICE has existed in Minneapolis and virtually every city throughout the country now, for decades. We had a presence of a couple of hundred ICE agents in our area. And so, of course, there will continue to be some form of immigration enforcement.
What I think everybody found so exceedingly objectionable is both the scope of what we saw in 3,000 to 4,000 ICE agents and Border Patrol, versus 600 police officers, and also the conduct that we were seeing on our streets, which was these roving gangs of agents, picking Somali people and Latino people off the street, not based -- not on the basis of them having been a criminal, but on the basis of the way that they looked. That's not OK in Minneapolis. That is not OK in any city in America.
COLLINS: Yes. And after Alex Pretti had been killed by federal agents, Tom Homan was brought in, obviously.
FREY: Yes, right.
COLLINS: Greg Bovino, who had been there previously, left and departed.
Tom Homan today, who I know you've met with, since he's been there on the ground in Minneapolis, was describing the operation, and basically the state of it when he got there, and he also defended it, in saying, he viewed the immigration operation as a success.
But I want you to listen to what else he said about how they performed, while they were in your city.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOMAN: There were some issues here and we addressed those issues. But I'm not going to sit here and say anybody did anything wrong and that they were unprofessional. I'm going to say, there's some issues here. We fixed those issues. We've had great success with this operation, and we're leaving Minnesota safer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: When you hear that, and you think about Renee Good and Alex Pretti, I mean, do you view that as issues?
FREY: Issues would be certainly the understatement of the century. These are people that should be alive today. Alex and Renee were standing up for their neighbors. They were practicing First Amendment, and Second Amendment, and 10th Amendment, and probably Fourth Amendment. Bottom line is constitutionally-protected activity was taking place.
And so, I mean, one of the things that I find the most repulsive is that had there not been video evidence of what was taking place, the federal government would be running with a lie, and some of us would be believing that lie.
These were not domestic terrorists. These were part of our Minneapolis collective family. These were neighbors. They were family members. We loved them, and they deserved better.
Now, the meetings that I had with Border Czar Homan were productive. They were collegial. They were good meetings where, yes, we made some obviously good progress.
And at the same time, when he talks about the issues that took place. Yes, there were massive and extensive issues, and it wasn't limited, of course, to the killings that we just talked about.
It was this practice of hunting down people that had done nothing wrong. It was the detention of United States citizens. It was the dragging of a pregnant woman through the street. It was having these massive and traumatic impacts on children. And it's both children that were detained, as well as those that were fearful of their families getting ripped apart, that will experience this kind of mental duress long-term.
COLLINS: Yes, and Governor Walz was talking about that as well, and he said he wants federal compensation because of what happened in Minnesota.
FREY: He's right.
COLLINS: He said, You don't get to break things and then just leave without doing something about it.
Do you agree with that, that there should be federal compensation?
FREY: I do.
To give you an idea of the damage that we have collectively experienced. This has indeed been catastrophic.
Now, to be clear, we're not victims here. We are tough. We've got the kind of grit in Minneapolis that I think is admirable. We're going to make an extraordinary comeback. And of course, we have to acknowledge the impact on people, on children, on small and local businesses, on our economy. We're about to release a report tomorrow, on the extent. But just to give you a couple of highlights. It's between $10 million and $20 million of small, local business impact a week. About 50 percent of the businesses on these cultural corridors were closed. Hotels have experienced a massive decline in revenue. And all of these industries were making a huge comeback just prior to this Operation Metro Surge beginning.
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We're going to come back. We're going to be tough. We've got a whole country that I feel that is rallying around us.
And by the way, you want to help Minneapolis out? Come to Minneapolis. Spend money in Minneapolis.
COLLINS: You're here in New York City. You met with the new mayor here.
FREY: Yes.
COLLINS: Zohran Mamdani. He's been on the show before. We've talked to him about how he plans to deal with President Trump. Obviously, we all watched his Oval Office meeting with President Trump. Is that something that the two of you talked about? How did your meeting go?
FREY: The meeting went really well. He is doing and will do an extraordinary job as mayor.
And here's the thing. As mayors, we operate in the reality business. And the reality is, is that we can all see with our own two eyes, the kind of constitutional violations that were taking place on the streets of Minneapolis. And it's not good enough for this massive operation to leave our city, simply to land in another.
And what I've said to mayors, and Mayor Mamdani certainly gets it, and I've said to CEOs too, is like, You can't, like, bow your head in despair, hoping that you're not going to attract the attention of the next operation. We've all got to be standing up for this. And it should not be a Republican or a Democrat position. This should be an American one.
This is not the kind of thing that we should allow in our country. We shouldn't allow political retaliation and retribution on blue cities and states throughout the country, simply because they disagree with the narrative put out by a federal government.
We shouldn't allow the Department of Justice to be weaponized against elected leaders and individuals and the press.
And we certainly should not allow American citizens to get detained when they've done nothing wrong.
COLLINS: Mayor Frey, thank you for joining us tonight. FREY: Thank you for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Up next here. The desperate search for a missing loved one is one that my next source is all too familiar with. The 1993 abduction and murder of his daughter, Polly Klaas, gripped the nation. Her father Marc will join me next with his thoughts on the toll this is taking on the Guthrie family.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: As investigators are desperately searching for answers in Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, it's agonizing to think of the toll that this is taking on her family.
Over the last 12 days, we've seen the Guthries post a series of videos, begging for their mother's captor for her safe return, while also urging the public to help in any way that they can. Today, we saw Savannah Guthrie post this, sharing old home movies from her childhood, alongside her sister, and smiling with their mom. She captioned it, Our lovely mom. We will never give up on her.
It's a sentiment that my next guest understands far too well, because in 1993, in a small city in Northern California, his daughter, 12- year-old Polly Klaas, was kidnapped during a slumber party right in her own home. The intruder tied Polly's friends up, and took her at knife point. And her abduction sparked a massive nationwide search that ended tragically two months later, when her body was found. Her killer remains on death row tonight.
And Marc Klaas has turned the worst thing that could ever happen to any parent into a force for good, and has been working tirelessly to help families find their missing loved ones. And he joins me now.
And Marc, I just want to say I'm so grateful that you're here and that you're willing to come on and talk about this, because no one can even imagine the grief that you've felt and that you've had.
But I'm really grateful to get your perspective, because I think everyone has just been gut-wrenched, thinking about the Guthrie family, and Savannah, and what they've been going through tonight. And I wonder what goes through your mind, when you are watching the news play out like we are right now.
MARC KLAAS, DAUGHTER ABDUCTED FROM HOME IN 1993, FATHER OF POLLY KLAAS: Well, it's triggering. I mean, it's triggering because there are so many similarities between what happened in our case and what's happening here. For instance, it's bringing together local law enforcement and the FBI. I mean, the law enforcement presence in both of these cases were overwhelming.
And the fact that you're going days on end without any new information, without new suspects. What it does to you internally is, it breaks you down. It takes you from a rational human being to somebody that's completely overwhelmed by fear and by anger. You don't sleep. You don't eat. All you do is worry and hope. And the longer these things go on, the more tenuous that hope becomes. But you still have to hold on to it. You have to hold on to it until the end, whatever the end happens to be.
And like everybody else, I pray that Mrs. Guthrie is found and that she's alive.
COLLINS: Yes, we're all praying for that.
KLAAS: Sure.
COLLINS: And just to see, obviously, Savannah delivers the news every day. And to see that this has become now about her own family and her own -- her own situation here.
You mentioned the similarities. The whole ransom note situation also stood out to me, given what you went through, and what your family went through, where you got a ransom demand for your daughter's return. They figured out it was a hoax, pretty quickly.
[21:40:00]
The cruelty of false hope must be so difficult, and challenging, and something that so few people know what that is like.
KLAAS: The day after Polly disappeared, we got a phone call from a little girl who said she was Polly. And she called my home. We had somebody staying at the home. And they didn't ask any kind of questions, to prove that you were Polly. We got the FBI on it, and we found out a week later that, in fact, it was just a cruel hoax by some child.
There's so much noise. When we were looking for Polly, one of the local newspapers was ready to publish a story saying that I was a drug kingpin, and that this was some kind of retaliation for a drug deal that had gone wrong. There's just noise. There's noise coming out of everywhere. And you've got this massive walk -- this massive media presence there who is waiting for just one thing. They're waiting for a resolution. So, that generates its own kind of noise.
You've got the Sheriff coming out, and people say things about the Sheriff. Somebody's got to be doing this, somebody's got to be meeting the press, somebody's got to be talking to them, even if it's to say, We have nothing new to offer.
And that, in itself, drives the family insane. How can -- that's their job. Their job is to find Mrs. Guthrie, just as their job was to find Polly. And every time, every day that that doesn't occur, is a day that they're failing at their job, at least in the minds of the people who are most invested, at least in the minds of the family.
I got to a point, where I really lost it. I mean, I was waiting for the police to come talk to me, and I curled up into a little ball, out in front of the Petaluma police department. And an FBI agent came and had to revitalize me. He had to give me a pep talk. He told me that I had to get up, I had to be ready, I had to be strong, I had to set an example for people. Because if I couldn't do it, if I couldn't move forward, why should anybody else move forward?
And I'm sure that similar things have happened with the Guthrie family. I'm sure that they have these massive doubts. They question God. They question the meaning of life. They question the choices that they've made. And until it's resolved, those kinds of things are going to go on.
And we have to hope that it's resolved, because of all these cases that don't get resolved, it becomes very, very difficult for people to move on. Knowing, whatever the answer is, knowing is better than the not knowing.
COLLINS: Knowing is better than not knowing.
I mean, thinking of that, just given what you went through, which so few people can even imagine, you have dedicated your life to advocating for child safety legislation, helping families find their missing loved ones.
And obviously, everyone is asking for help tonight. The FBI is asking for help. The Guthrie family is asking for help.
I wonder, what words of advice you would offer, whether that is to the Guthrie family going through what you felt outside that police station, or to people who are sitting at home, heartbroken, about what this family is experiencing.
KLAAS: Well, what I would say to the Guthrie family is, depend upon each other, depend upon law enforcement. Don't listen to the noise, because the noise is going to distract you, and it's going to drive you crazy.
I would also say to the kidnappers, Please, just finish this. Bring this woman home. Let them have the peace that they deserve.
And for anybody else out there, keep them in your prayers. If you've got any kind of information that might be helpful, be sure to share it with law enforcement. Trust that this thing will play out the way it's supposed to play out, and stop second-guessing and stop making noise, and stop creating false narratives that really have no place in a situation like this.
COLLINS: Yes. I really appreciate that, Marc, and I'm just so grateful that you -- that you were willing to come on and talk about this. I know it's difficult, but I really, really appreciate it. So, thank you for being here tonight.
KLAAS: Well, thank you so much. Thank you, Kaitlan. I appreciate it.
COLLINS: And I hope everyone heeds Marc's words there. They're words of wisdom.
We'll be back in a quick moment. [21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The House Speaker making a rare break with the Trump administration, which comes after the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, while testifying on Capitol Hill yesterday, was photographed with a printout of what was Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, a Democrat's search in the unredacted Epstein files, which lawmakers can only view when they're at the Justice Department, surrounded by Justice Department staff, and on Justice Department computers.
Asked about this today and accusations that the DOJ was spying on what Democrats were looking up on those computers. Speaker Johnson offered this take, which, for him, sounds like criticism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): My understanding is that there are computers set up where the DOJ was allowing access to the files, and I think members should obviously have the right to peruse those at their own speed and with their own discretion. And I'm not -- I don't think it's appropriate for anybody to be tracking that. So, I will echo that to anybody involved with the DOJ. And I'm sure, it was an oversight. That's my guess.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My congressional source is the Democrat from Maryland, Congressman Jamie Raskin, who was in the room yesterday during that testimony.
Do you believe it was just an oversight, as Speaker Johnson put it there?
[21:50:00]
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): No, they were spying on us. They were clearly monitoring and surveilling the computer searches that we were conducting, and it was set up for thus to -- for them to have very close control and surveillance over us. It's completely obvious to anybody who went over there.
And so, they were able to give Pam Bondi briefing materials, based on what we had been looking at. I mean, we would have loved to have briefing materials as to what she had been looking at. But in any of it -- this isn't a game. It's not hide and go seek, cat and mouse.
We passed a federal law, saying, Release all 6 million Epstein files.
She said, We're going to release 3 million. The other 3 million are duplicative.
If they're duplicative? Release them. But we know they're not duplicative, because in there are a lot of things that we're specifically looking for, like the trial prosecution memo for the federal case that never happened, where they laid out the entire case. That's been ultra-redacted or withdrawn from public view. There were victim statements that were turned into legal memoranda, which the victims couldn't find because they're in that 3 million withdrawn portion.
Meantime, for the stuff they did give us, 200,000 pages are redacted, and mostly not of the victims, which is what they were supposed to redact, but the victimizers, the potential co-conspirators, accomplices and enablers of these crimes. And then meantime, as everybody knows by now, there were a whole bunch of victims whose names, addresses, phone numbers, even nude images were put online.
COLLINS: Yes.
RASKIN: And how do you -- how would you ever repay those people for that massive violation of privacy?
COLLINS: Well, I mean, and during that hearing, I mean, at one point, she called you a washed-up loser lawyer was, I believe, the term.
If you want to respond to that. And also--
RASKIN: Hey, I'm not a washed-up lawyer. I'm a washed-up law professor.
COLLINS: Important clarification. Well, I guess and then she--
RASKIN: I was an Assistant Attorney General for a couple years. But I was a law professor for 25 years.
COLLINS: She said you weren't a real lawyer, at one point.
RASKIN: Yes.
COLLINS: Obviously, I'll let you dispute that.
RASKIN: Yes. Well, it takes one to know one. Yes.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, but in terms of the redactions--
RASKIN: I paid my -- I pay my bar dues every year. So, I know I am a real lawyer.
COLLINS: OK.
RASKIN: And I'd be very happy to discuss with her the Constitution, and how every constitutional amendment is being violated, right now, by the agencies she represents, like ICE, the First Amendment right of speech and assembly, the right to petition government for redress of grievances. The Second Amendment rights were violated in Minneapolis, the Fourth Amendment. So, let's talk about serious law.
It's wild to me that the Attorney General of the United States of America thinks that you can substitute personal insults, just slung promiscuously around the room, for actual legal argumentation and substantive answers. That's amazing. COLLINS: In terms of the redactions, though. I mean, when Thomas Massie brought up one of the names, that truly they redacted moments before he was on the show the other night, after he had pointed it out. She kind of downplayed it and laughed it off at one point, saying it was one name that they unredacted 40 minutes after he flagged it.
But does it raise questions about how this process is happening, in terms of people who shouldn't be redacted being redacted, and only when it's pointed out who's not redacted, the unredactions are happening?
RASKIN: Yes, Massie was totally correct there, because it was a very telling deletion or redaction, because, as he pointed out, Wexner's name appeared in a number of other places, so they had no hope of just trying to throw him down the complete Orwellian memory hole.
But where they did redact him was in a place where he was listed as a co-conspirator in an indictment, which ended up never happening. So, they would like to bury everything about that.
And I do think that that's where any real investigation begins. That 60-count federal indictment that got traded for one measly state charge of solicitation to prostitution, not even mentioning minors, that--
COLLINS: Yes.
RASKIN: --Epstein was allowed to plead guilty to, and then get this comical slap on the wrist, where he was free during the day times and spent the night--
COLLINS: Can I--
RASKIN: --in a cushy little jail cell.
COLLINS: Can I also ask you, though, tonight, where there is breaking news that Kathy Ruemmler, who was the counsel when President Obama was in office, is now leaving -- or she's going to step down in the coming months from her top legal job at Goldman Sachs, because of the cozy emails that she had with Jeffrey Epstein. Do you believe that's the right move?
RASKIN: I mean, I -- I have no idea whether it's the right move for her, or Larry Summers, any of these people stepping down.
But I would say that an association with Jeffrey Epstein is disgraceful on many levels, whether you're talking about somebody who was a real intimate and worker for him, like Alan Dershowitz, or even Noam Chomsky who apparently had some kind of academic, financial relationship for him. I think everybody needs to reflect on what that means.
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:55:00]
RASKIN: Because Epstein was somebody who used his money and his power in order to purchase influence and immunity and impunity.
COLLINS: Yes.
RASKIN: And that ethos is what America is suffering from today, the idea that some people are above and beyond the law.
COLLINS: Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you for joining us tonight.
And we'll be right back with new comments from RFK Jr.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, the Health and Human Services Secretary, RFK Jr., had a notable comment regarding why he says he was never scared of the COVID-19 pandemic that killed millions of people around the world.
As he sat down with Theo Von, the nation's Health Secretary talked about his own substance abuse recovery meetings, and how he was heartbroken when they went virtual, and why he opted to go in-person instead.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: We still did live meetings every day during COVID.
It was kind of a pirate group. And, you know, I mean, for me, I -- you know what, I said this when -- when we came in, and I said, I don't care what happens. I'm going to a meeting every day.
THEO VON, HOST, THIS PAST WEEKEND W/ THEO VON PODCAST: Yes.
KENNEDY JR.: And I said, I'm not scared of a germ, you know, I used to snort cocaine off of toilet seats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: On that note, thanks so much for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
