Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
James Comey Speaks Out After Second Indictment; Trump: Not Weighing Americans' Finances During Iran Talks; Five GOP Lawmakers Defy Trump's Push For New South Carolina Map. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 12, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JAKE ROSMARIN, TRAVEL CONTENT CREATOR QUARANTINED IN NEBRASKA: It's actually a question that I've been asked a lot. And it may sound cliche, but I cannot wait to give my fiancee and my family and friends hugs because, that's something that I just really miss. That first hug is going to feel like the best thing in the world.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Well, Jake, I hope it happens soon.
Jake Rosmarin, I appreciate it.
ROSMARIN: Thank you.
COOPER: Sanjay Gupta as well, thank you.
ROSMARIN: Thank you so much.
COOPER: That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, the former FBI director, James Comey, is here to respond, for the first time on CNN, to the second indictment brought against him by the Trump Justice Department.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
As we come on the air tonight, Air Force One is in the air, en route to Beijing, and President Trump will arrive in China just hours from now. And sources say that from a bruising trade war, to the actual war playing out still with Iran, it's a packed agenda, as he prepares to sit down with Xi Jinping.
But in the hours before his departure, the President's mind appeared to be elsewhere. He posted and reposted dozens of times overnight and into the morning, this is just a few of those that we saw playing out in this overnight spree, most of them centered around traditional grievances and debunked conspiracy theories. 2016 election. The Russia investigation. The 2020 election. Barack Obama's birth certificate.
But this repost from the President stood out. That's because it addressed -- it's addressed directly to the acting Attorney General, Todd Blanche, asking, quote, When the hell he's going to secure more indictments against the President's political foes? Quote, "We see Comey," it says, "We don't see Brennan. We don't see Hillary. We don't see Obama. It's time we get to SEE JUSTICE."
Now, few people know better what it's like to be the subject of an extraordinary directive, like that one, than my lead source tonight, the former FBI director, James Comey, who has been one of the President's most frequent targets for nearly a decade.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Comey is a liar and a leaker.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: You know, you know, I did you a great favor when I fired this guy.
Say, how is he going to explain to his grandchildren all of the lies, the deceit, all of the problems he's caused for this country.
If you look at what he said, all of the lies, all of the fiction, I think he's got a lot of problems.
Had I not fired James Comey, who was a disaster, by the way, it's possible I wouldn't even be standing here right now.
When I fired that sleazebag, all hell broke out.
Terrible person, did terrible things and persecuted people, and all in the guise of being an angel.
Comey is a bad person. He's a sick person. I think he's a sick guy, actually. He did terrible things at the FBI.
He's a dirty cop. Comey, I think he's a dirty cop. He's recognized by many people to be a dirty cop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The former FBI director is now facing a second indictment that was brought by the President's Justice Department, after the first one failed to get off the ground. This one is different, and accuses James Comey of threatening President Trump's life with this post. A photo of seashells in the shape of 86 47. 86, which usually means to get rid of or to toss something out, and 47 for the 47th President.
In the Oval Office, just last week, President Trump actually told me how he interpreted that post.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Do you really think that he was endangering your life or threatening your life with that post?
TRUMP: Well, if anybody knows anything about crime, they know 86 -- you know what 86 -- it's a mob term for kill him. You know? You ever see the movies? 86 him.
COLLINS: But do you really think your life was in danger? Because that's the argument.
TRUMP: Probably, I don't know. You know, based on -- based on what I'm seeing out there, yes, it's the--
COLLINS: I mean, it's seashells.
TRUMP: People like Comey have created tremendous danger, I think, for politicians and others. He -- you know, Comey is a dirty cop. He's a very dirty cop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, Comey is expected to plead not guilty when he's arraigned next month. It would set up a summer trial for the former FBI director.
And this all comes as tonight, the President is heading to China, as I mentioned. In one of his last moments in the Oval Office before he departed, as he was speaking with reporters yesterday, he compared Comey to one of Beijing's biggest critics.
[21:05:00]
That would be Jimmy Lai, who is currently serving a 20-year prison sentence, and many of the President's allies have urged him to bring that up directly with the Chinese leader when he sits down with him in-person. And that's a prison sentence, I should note, that stems from his pro-democracy activism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're getting hundreds of people out of confinement and prisons that shouldn't be there, and hundreds, and many of them aren't even citizens of the United States. They're people that have been captured in some form, ministers, people that are really innocent people, and they're being held captive.
And I bring up Jimmy Lai. Now, Jimmy Lai, you know, did -- I mean, caused a lot of bedlam, you know? I don't know. It's like saying to me, If Comey ever went to jail, would you let him out? That's -- it might be a hard one for me. Does that make sense? It might be a hard one for me, you know because, he's a dirty cop. But Jimmy Lai isn't that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And on that note, joining me now is the former FBI director, James Comey, whose new novel, "Red Verdict," a legal thriller, is out today. And I just want to note, just to fill everyone in at home, we actually booked you around the release of your new book, before you were indicted for the second time when this happened. Obviously, that has changed the nature of this interview.
JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR, AUTHOR, "RED VERDICT": Yes.
COLLINS: But what did you make of the President, first off, comparing you there, to this pro-democracy activist who's been jailed by a Chinese authoritarian leader.
COMEY: Yes, I -- first of all, I hope my family skips the intro section.
But it confuses me because, I thought Jimmy Lai was a hero. So, it just tells me the guy is not OK, our President. And for some reason, I'm burrowed into his head. He's tweeting about me when I'm sound asleep, or Truthing about me. I don't understand it and can't explain it.
COLLINS: On this second indictment. What went through your head, when you got word, I'm assuming from your attorneys, that you had been indicted a second time?
COMEY: Well, my sense is that this, and I've told my family this, this is going to continue until this group led by Donald Trump leaves office because, for whatever reason, he is obsessed with retribution in general, and especially with me, or John Brennan, or Adam Schiff. So, I expect it's going to continue.
COLLINS: So, do you think that this could happen potentially again during Trump's term in office?
COMEY: Oh, sure. I mean, I'm assuming that the first case they brought went away. Whatever happens with this case, which I'm not going to talk about outside the courtroom, but whatever happens with it, I would expect they'll try something else.
COLLINS: Do you expect this to actually get to, to the courtroom, to a trial?
COMEY: I don't know. And as I've said, I don't want to talk about it outside the courtroom because, I have great faith in the American federal judiciary, and one of the rules of that judiciary is you speak in the courtroom.
COLLINS: In terms of that -- and I understand that you don't want to talk about that, given it will be taking place, presumably, if this all does go to trial.
The Justice Department and what we've heard from White House officials who say -- when people say, This is a vindictive prosecution here. They say, Well it was a grand jury who indicted him.
What would you say to that? COMEY: Yes, I don't really know enough to comment because, grand jury proceedings are secret. We had some ability to look into the grand jury proceeding in the first case they brought. A magistrate judge pointed out misconduct there. But I'm not prepared to comment about anything in the North Carolina case.
COLLINS: And so, as this goes forward. You heard the President there, when I was asking his view of your post, and if he really thought his life was in danger. He invoked these mob movies, and he said, If you ever watch these mob movies, you know they always use the term 86, that it means, to kill them. I mean, you were actually someone who previously prosecuted the mob. What would you say about that?
COMEY: I'm sure it'll be important for people to actually do the research to see how it's been used and where it's been used, and I'll leave that to experts. And I don't -- I'm pretty sure that fellow talking to you is not an expert.
COLLINS: Of the mob? Or of this term?
COMEY: Well, he may know a lot about the mob, but he -- about this particular term.
COLLINS: When you prosecuted the mob, though, did you -- mafia members, did you ever hear someone use that term?
COMEY: Yes, I don't want to say that because, it gets close to talking about the case. But I think there'll be a lot of looking at that by people who are thoughtful, analytical and careful.
COLLINS: Yes, well, I just asked because in terms of the case itself, you know, there are other people who have used that phrase in Trump's orbit. Pro-Trump allies, influencers who have said, 86 46. You know, that was when President Biden was obviously in office. Jack Posobiec is one of them. From what we know, they were not investigated. We do know they weren't indicted.
The acting Attorney General, Todd Blanche, says the only thing that's unique about your case is your name. Do you believe that?
COMEY: Yes, we'll see how it turns out. Again, I want to leave it to my lawyers to make the right arguments in the court. We'll have a variety of things to say, but I got to say it there.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: What do you make of the acting Attorney at General, Todd Blanche, and how he's running the Justice Department, from what you've seen since he's taken over, after Pam Bondi was fired?
COMEY: Well, it appears that Pam Bondi's standards were too high. So, it's concerning that Pam Bondi struck me as someone who was looking to do the President's bidding.
I hope that Todd Blanche can find, maybe in his memory of his time at the Southern District of New York, where I was a federal prosecutor, remembrance of the standards and the norms that have made the Department of Justice special for a long time. Most prominent among them? Not being a political force.
COLLINS: Is that what you see playing out right now?
COMEY: In the targeting of the President's enemies and going after John Brennan, and calling for the incarceration of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. It doesn't get more vindictive and political than that. I would hope the Department of Justice would resist that, but they don't have a great track record so far.
COLLINS: What do you make of the Justice Department, this time around, and this second Trump term, compared to the President's first term, when you were still serving obviously, in the beginning of that.
COMEY: Yes, they're managing to make Bill Barr look principled and good. Good for him. I would like to see him speak out more to explain why he stood for the things he stood for. It appears now it's operating as an adjunct of the President's vengeance.
COLLINS: I mean, they actually have a banner, from the Justice Department hanging up, that Pam Bondi installed, of the President's face. I mean, there's others at the Labor Department and -- but typically with the Justice Department, there is that line of independence.
When there's a banner of the President's face hanging from the Justice Department, what do you think would have been the reaction had any other president done that?
COMEY: They didn't get the banner big enough to block the chiseling in the wall outside the Justice Department that says, Where law ends, tyranny begins.
The Department of Justice stands for justice, which we always depict with a blindfold in this country because, it has to be that way to be just the idea that you're hanging anyone's face on the outside of the Department of Justice, no less this person, is an obscenity.
COLLINS: You just mentioned John Brennan, Cassidy Hutchinson. I mean, those were people that -- and you saw the President's reposts there, mentioning Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. I mean, do you actually believe that those people should be preparing to also be indicted and be in your shoes?
COMEY: Well, I'm sure that they are. Hope they're speaking to good lawyers. Which is part of the punishment, right? The process is the punishment with these characters. But I hope they're consulting with good lawyers because, the President is telling the Department of Justice, which is an adjunct of his vengeance campaign, to go after these people. So if I'm them, I would steel myself for things to happen.
COLLINS: I mean, I imagine you prepared for another indictment after the first one was thrown out? COMEY: Sure, and I'm preparing for three and four. I mean, it's not going to stop. Given who is currently the President of the United States, and the way he has shaped or really torn apart the Justice Department, it's not going to stop until they're gone from office.
COLLINS: You think you could be indicted a third time or a fourth time or--
(CROSSTALK)
COMEY: Yes, I just don't know. I mean, I don't know what it might be. I hear about crazy sort of red-string crazy wall conspiracy theories in Florida. I don't know what they're cooking up. But I would expect there will be more efforts to get the President's enemies because, he's obsessed with it, and that's really, really sad.
COLLINS: There was a former top Justice Department official who's -- will remain anonymous, who messaged me after you got indicted the second time -- and this is not someone who really does exaggerate or embellishes -- and said, This might be the worst case the DOJ has filed in my lifetime.
I wonder what you think of when you hear that, what you've heard personally from people, since this second indictment happened?
COMEY: Well, there's been a lot of support from lawyers, especially across the spectrum. But it's -- again, I don't want to react to that because, I want to be disciplined. I don't care what government officials do. I am going to abide the court rules and not speak about it outside the courtroom.
COLLINS: Can you say if you regret posting the picture, just given everything that's happened?
COMEY: Yes, I'd love to, but I -- I'm not going to answer that.
You might ask, Do I regret becoming FBI director? Do I regret becoming Donald Trump's obsession in the middle of the night? No. I loved. That work was really important. I loved the people of the FBI. I grieve what's happened to them. That's why I have no regrets there.
But I'm not going to talk about the shells right now.
COLLINS: He posted a lot overnight, as I just mentioned, bringing up things about Obama. That's one of the things, I assume, you're mentioning when you say you don't know what the possible future indictments could be. A lot of debunked conspiracy theories about the election, Hillary Clinton, the 2020 election.
You used to brief him, I mean, in 2016 in the runup to the election, and in 2017. Do you think he's the same person as he was when you used to sit in the Oval Office with him?
COMEY: He doesn't seem OK to me. And I know that sounds like a political shot. It seems like there's something wrong with the man. There was always something wrong with the man, and that he lacks a moral center. But this seems off, this middle of the night, obsessive Truth after Truth -- not an actual truth, but a re-Truthing, re- Truthing on his platform seems crazy to me.
COLLINS: So, you seem to think it's different?
[21:15:00]
COMEY: Yes, he seems different in a bad way. Not different in, You redid your hair. I mean, different in that, You seem nuts, buddy.
COLLINS: And why do you -- what do you attribute that to?
COMEY: I don't know. Yes, I don't know.
COLLINS: You mentioned just the -- being FBI director, not regretting serving in that time.
The former President Barack Obama. Actually, you know, we don't hear from him that often on stuff like this. He actually weighed in, last week, on the Justice Department and the institution as a whole, last week, and said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, 44TH U.S. PRESIDENT: The idea is that the attorney general is the people's lawyer, it's not the president's consigliere.
There's a bunch of stuff that, you know, we can overcome. We can't overcome the politicization of the criminal justice system, the awesome power of the state.
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: You can't have a situation in which whoever is in charge of the government starts using that, to go after their political enemies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What do you hear in that answer?
COMEY: A statement of principle that I thought everyone agreed to.
Again, we depict Lady Justice with a blindfold because, we all get that our country is seriously diminished, if we start making decisions about the awesome power of the justice system based on who you like, what you look like, how much money you have. For very, very principled and practical reasons. The whole system doesn't work.
And I would expect Republicans, I know there's a lot trapped in the cult of MAGA, to step back and say, Whoa, what if that shoe was on the other foot? How would that be?
It would be awful, no matter who's being targeted.
COLLINS: What would you -- if they -- someone might hear that, I can hear a Trump attorney now saying, Well, they did go after him, you know, when he was out of office and they did indict him. What would you say to that defense?
COMEY: Take a step back, and look at the cases, look at the work they did.
And remember this. The Biden Justice Department indicted the president's son. Can you imagine that happening today? Honestly? While you're shaving, MAGA supporter, in the mirror, look in the mirror, and say, Could that happen today? And the answer is no, which is a really bad thing.
COLLINS: Former FBI director, James Comey, I have questions about the book. If you'll stick around. We're going to take a quick break.
COMEY: Thanks.
COLLINS: And we have a few more questions right after a quick break.
And I should also note. One of the things we're going to talk about right after this is, for the first time, in a CNN exclusive, we're actually hearing from the former acting FBI director from the Trump administration, talking about the shocking questions he was asked when he got the job.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, in a CNN exclusive, a former acting FBI chief under President Trump, who is right now suing the current FBI director and the administration overall because of his firing, is speaking out to Anderson Cooper.
Brian Driscoll is a decorated FBI Special Agent who says that, Kash Patel once told him, his own job security, as director, actually depended on purging the Department, of agents who worked on cases against Trump.
Driscoll also spoke about his concerns, when other Trump officials began vetting him for a top job at the agency, where he says he was asked questions like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN DRISCOLL, FORMER ACTING FBI DIRECTOR: So, I might be out of order here, but when did you start supporting President Trump? I didn't answer that one either.
Then he asked me, do I agree that the agents who stormed Mar-a-Lago, his words, not mine, should be held accountable? I did answer that one with an absolute no. And then I explained to him they were doing their jobs pursuant to a predicated investigation and court order, and that we don't choose what cases we work.
He was like, OK, just tell me if you voted for a Democrat in the last five elections. This conversation's over and concluded the phone call.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Back with me now, on that note, is the former FBI director, James Comey, whose new novel "Red Verdict," a legal thriller, is out today.
What do you make of what Brian Driscoll said he was asked about for this job?
COMEY: Yes, it's horrifying.
But that is what the FBI is. That is smart, brave principle. That's what the people of the FBI are, and why it's so, so upsetting that they're being led in a way that is political.
COLLINS: And he got fired.
COMEY: Right. Part of his bravery, his bravery is obviously physical bravery. I gave him two medals, I believe. That's a person who has literally put his life on the line for this country, who is apolitical, and I'm so glad that he is speaking the truth to the powers that are trying to run the FBI as something it can never be.
COLLINS: Do you think there's a lot of people in FBI who probably feel like he does in those comments that, you know, there are inappropriate questions being asked of what they're doing?
COMEY: Oh, thousands, and they're trying to hang on, they're trying to make it for another two and a half years before the organization can be rebuilt. I wish them luck. I really hope they're able to.
COLLINS: Kash Patel was actually on Capitol Hill today, and he testified that, quote, Morale has never been better at the FBI. Do you think that's true?
COMEY: That's great news. Release the anonymous climate surveys, where we anonymously survey every employee, all 38,000, and let's check that.
COLLINS: You doubt his testimony?
COMEY: I doubt it. You fire someone like Brian Driscoll, and hundreds of others, an agent whose wife is dying of cancer, you fire those people, for no reason at all? Yes, don't give me some nonsense about how high morale is.
COLLINS: In that testimony today, he was asked about that report from The Atlantic recently, that was citing FBI personnel that they say were alarmed by his erratic behavior and excessive drinking.
[21:25:00]
He denies that. He's suing The Atlantic for defamation.
But a Democratic senator today questioned him about it, and this was his response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): Is it your testimony that those allegations are categorically false?
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: Unequivocally, categorically false.
VAN HOLLEN: So, there have been no occasions during your tenure when FBI personnel were unable to promptly reach you?
PATEL: Absolutely not. You can ask my entire workforce, they hear from me at every single hour of the day, as do these great gentlemen here, as do the men and women of the interagency and state and local law enforcement and the White House.
VAN HOLLEN: And so, there have been no occasions when your security detail had difficulty waking or locating you. Is that right?
PATEL: Nope, it's a total farce. I don't even know where you get this stuff, but it doesn't make it credible because you say so.
VAN HOLLEN: I'm not saying it, Director Patel. It's been written and documented.
PATEL: You are literally saying it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What did you make of that report and his denials there?
COMEY: Yes, I don't know how to evaluate his denials. I don't know whether the report is true. But if it's true, it's very concerning.
When you're the Director of the FBI, you represent something, which is obviously 38,000 people, but also an idea. A brand probably is too vernacular a word. You represent something that is important, and so you should dress a certain way, stand a certain way, conduct yourself in a certain way. And if the allegations in the report are accurate, and I don't know whether they are, that is inconsistent with the obligation to represent the institution.
COLLINS: The FBI director is a 10-year term. It's supposed to be. Obviously, you were ousted of yours. Do you think Kash Patel will ultimately serve those full 10 years as FBI director?
COMEY: We'll see. I'm optimistic there will be a different presidential administration in two and a half years, and so we'll see what their evaluation is of the work of the current Director.
COLLINS: Do you think it would be fair if it was -- I mean, we don't know, but if it's a Democratic president, and they want to oust him?
COMEY: Well that--
COLLINS: I mean because, people say it's supposed to be a non- political job, it's supposed to be a 10-year term. COMEY: Yes, I certainly wouldn't want to see someone fired simply because he was appointed by a president of a different party, right? I'm someone who had given money to Republican candidates who ran against Barack Obama. He chose me because, he said, I want an apolitical independent leader of the FBI.
So if, in two and a half years, Kash Patel fits that bill? It'd great for the next President to keep him. They'll just have to do their own evaluation.
COLLINS: You mentioned Pam Bondi and her ouster at the Justice Department. I mean, there are reports that Kash Patel could be fired. If he were to be fired, what would your advice to him be?
COMEY: I don't -- I don't have any advice for him. I'm sure that there are opportunities in Trump world that I'm not aware of.
COLLINS: Your thriller that's out today, "Red Verdict," which people should read, it's a continuation of your previous fiction novels that you've written. I mean, it talks about Russians, spying, allegations. There's a whole court case in that.
But there's a part in it that also talks about polygraphs. And one of your characters is saying, you know, One of those DOJ lawyers I take, you know, no one ought to be doing it. The US government has never caught a spy with a poly, but they have ruined a lot of careers.
I mean, Kash Patel was literally asked about polygraphs today and using them, and was saying that it's defended -- defending it on the reports of it being used to identify leakers in the agency. What do you make of that?
COMEY: In my experience, the polygraph is most useful because, people think it detects lies, and so it changes behavior because people worry about it. There's a reason though it's not admissible in any court in the United States, it's just not sufficiently reliable to be used in that setting. And so, it's a tool, one, you ought to not put too much weight on.
COLLINS: You said you don't have any advice for Kash Patel if he gets fired. What about someone who's working inside the FBI, at the Justice Department right now, in this environment that we've talked about?
COMEY: Know who you are. Know the values you've sworn to uphold. Work your best to make sure your work is consistent with those values. And if you can't get it to that place, be prepared to leave or to sacrifice your career. And that's the situation that the people at the FBI and the Justice Department are in. That's why thousands have left. They couldn't get to that place. But I hope good people will try to stay and do things the right way.
COLLINS: As someone who has served in law enforcement, served as the FBI director, did you ever think that you would not only be indicted once, but be indicted twice in your life?
COMEY: No. And if you'd put it in a novel, your editor would strike it out. But that's the world in which we live. There's all kinds of things happening in America, I never imagined would happen in my lifetime. I remain very, very optimistic about this country, but it's going to be a hard two and a half years.
COLLINS: Some people might ask and might be watching and say, How are you optimistic? Or, how do you kind of laugh a little bit at this notion of this indictment?
[21:30:00]
COMEY: A number of reasons. First, I believe in the leg of our constitutional stool that the federal judiciary represents. They've proven themselves, over the last eight years, to be committed to doing things in the right way. Whether you agree with decisions or not, they have upheld the rule of law.
I know the people who are still in those organizations trying to hold on, and those who have left and will flow back, when it changes, and also know how screwed up we've been as a country so many times in our past, and we're OK in the long run because, we have a set of values that these characters can't do away with.
COLLINS: Former FBI director, James Comey, thank you for joining us here tonight.
COMEY: Great to be with you.
COLLINS: And the new book is out today, as I mentioned, "Red Verdict," you can now purchase it.
Up next. What President Trump is not thinking about as he's negotiating with Iran. The answer he just gave reporters on the South Lawn might surprise you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: When you're negotiating with Iran, Mr. President, to what extent are Americans' financial situation motivating you to make a deal?
TRUMP: I don't think about Americans' financial situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: You just heard from the former FBI director, James Comey, on THE SOURCE here, talking about his second indictment by the Justice Department, accusing President Trump of being obsessed with retribution.
My top legal and political sources are here to talk about what we just heard from the former FBI director. And Elie Honig, obviously, I'll start with you on this. In terms of, you know, hearing from James Comey, he can't talk about the case because, obviously, I mean, it could go to trial. We don't know. Presumably it will. What did you make of what he said?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASST. U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: I doubt it, by the way. I don't think it even makes it to trial. And what -- that brings me to the first thing that I noted.
Jim Comey just said to you, The process is the punishment. Meaning, every sentient lawyer on this planet, I don't care if you're right, left, Republican, Democrat, former prosecutor or not, recognizes that this indictment is doomed. It is completely meritless. It has no chance.
The only question to me is, on which of several bases is he going to get it thrown out on? He alluded to Trump being vindictive. That's actually the basis of a motion to dismiss, on vindictive prosecution. There's massive First Amendment problems. 86 47 doesn't even begin to cross the line into a threat.
The other thing that Jim Comey said that really struck a chord with me. He said to you that he hopes Todd Blanche finds a memory of his time at the Southern District of New York. Now, Jim Comey was the U.S. Attorney for the SDNY up until the end of 2003. I arrived in 2004. Todd Blanche arrives in 2006.
And that really struck home for me because, I want to make sure people understand, and Jim Comey knows this. Todd Blanche was raised the right way. All the values that Jim Comey just talked to you about? Todd knows those. He's been taught those since day one. He wasn't raised bad. He wasn't raised with ethics that were out of kilter. He wasn't raised to see DOJ, politically. That's a new adoption by Todd Blanche. And so, I think a lot of us, who worked at the SDNY, are hoping he finds that memory.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, Shermichael, when you were listening to James Comey, he was saying that he could be indicted a third time or a fourth time, that he predicts that even if this doesn't make it to trial, like Elie just alluded to, that he thinks that as long as Trump is in office, his DOJ will try to come after him for what, as he framed it, you know, the process is the punishment here.
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Process guy.
And when you look at past being precedent, there haven't really been any successes at all in a number of these cases. Either they have been dismissed, as Elie has written and talked about for months now because, of procedural purposes or a lack of overall evidence. So, I'm probably of the mindset of Elie's analysis on this. I just haven't seen a whole lot that would suggest to me that there is a big smoking gun for this to move forward.
But again, they're moving forward, in terms of the DOJ. We'll see what the evidence ultimately is. They have stated that there is more that we haven't seen. We'll see if that meets and passes the smell test.
COLLINS: Karen Finney, what did you hear in what the former FBI director, someone who, you know, Democrats aren't a huge fan of, certainly people who worked for Hillary Clinton. I mean, when we had her on here, I asked her about the 2016 election, and she said that he was waiting in the wings to kneecap her. I mean, he's not exactly a Democratic icon.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, SENIOR ADVISER, 2016 CLINTON CAMPAIGN, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, DNC: Yes.
COLLINS: But when you hear what has happened to him with the Trump Justice Department, I wonder what stood out to you?
FINNEY: Well, I'll tell you, what stood out to me was just how confident he seemed and sort of unbothered, although sort of bemused by the fact that the President of the United States, when we're supposedly at war with Iran, when the country is on fire, has so much time to obsess about Jim Comey.
I mean, I thought his reaction to that was absolutely appropriate that, it's sort of silly that he remains living rent-free, I think he said, in Trump's mind, when you would think there should be so many other things that the President of the United States of America should be thinking about, should be, quote-unquote, obsessed about, rather than Jim Comey at this point.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, speaking of Iran. The President was asked a lot of questions about Iran today, as he was leaving the White House because, it's looming over this whole trip to Beijing. I mean, he's obviously talking about Jimmy Lai there, and also comparing him to James Comey.
But Harry, I want you to listen to what the President said today when he was asked about Iran.
[21:40:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: When you're negotiating with Iran, Mr. President, to what extent are Americans' financial situation motivating you to make a deal?
TRUMP: Not even a little bit. The only thing that matters when I'm talking about Iran -- they can't have a nuclear weapon. I don't think about Americans' financial situation. I don't think about anybody. I think about one thing. We cannot let Iran have a nuclear weapon. That's all.
Every American understands. And they just had a poll, like 85 percent, which is surprising it's only that. They understand that Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean the Democratic ad makers--
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: You stole the words right out of my mouth.
COLLINS: --are cutting it as we speak.
ENTEN: Oh, my goodness gracious. The American people are hearing what he's saying about the cost of living and their finances, and they think it's one of the dopiest things they have ever heard come out of Donald Trump's mouth, is what he said today.
And it comes at a point in which his net approval rating on the economy, according to our new CNN poll, is 40 points underwater, the lowest it has ever been. Remember, in term one, the economy was his best issue. He was in positive territory at plus-10 points, at this point.
He is off in a direction that the American people want nothing to do with. And when they hear what he has to say, like he said today, they go, What the heck is going on in Washington, D.C.?
COLLINS: So, what he said about the polls on Iran not having a nuclear weapon. I mean, I think most people would agree with that, do agree with that. But the term is the cost here in terms of this war. I mean, is that accurate?
ENTEN: Yes, I mean, here's the situation. Of course, the American people do not believe that Iran should have a nuclear weapon. But you talk about the issues that are the tops for the American folks. The Iran war does not rank anywhere near that.
And when it comes to the cost of living, in terms of the negative impact that they feel, that the Iran war has had on their cost of living. Well, they see it every day at the gas pump, right?
There is a reason why Donald Trump's net approval rating on gas prices is something like, I think it was like negative 58 points or something like that in our -- in our poll. I mean, this is just political nightmare fuel for Republicans, especially when Trump is making statements like he did today.
COLLINS: Shermichael, if you're the White House comms director, or a Republican political fundraiser, and the President says, I don't think about Americans' financial situation? What goes through your mind?
SINGLETON: I mean, the message is, you always think about the American people and their financial situation, number one.
Number two, if you're in the White House, you're putting pressure on the Speaker of the House, and the Majority Leader in the Senate, to try to figure out, can Congress pass some type of legislation to provide some temporary financial reprieve to the American people who may make a $100,000 and less in income and joint household incomes. That would be one immediate remedy.
The President is headed over to China right now. My secondary priority would be, can you get the Chinese to put pressure on the Iranians to open up the Strait of Hormuz? About 13.8 percent -- 14 percent of all oil purchased out of Iran goes to China. That's billions and billions of dollars that I'm almost certain the Iranian regime would like to have in their coffers.
And so, there's some levers here that the President can turn on that I think in the next three to six months could potentially benefit Republicans. But you got to start now before voting starts. And I don't see any indicators that suggest to me that the party as a whole, or the White House, unfortunately, is looking at it through that lens.
COLLINS: We shall see.
We have a lot more to talk about. Everyone, stick around. Shermichael. Karen. Harry. Elie. Everybody.
There's also this to talk about. Look what happened in South Carolina today, where it was Republican state senators who voted against a new congressional map, even though the President said they should be bold and courageous. His reaction to how this is playing out across the country, next.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: To voters who are confused about the changing maps, the changing dates, and to African Americans concerned that this is going to draw black members of Congress off the map, what do you say?
TRUMP: Well, I think it's been a wonderful process. They've been -- the Democrats, or as I call the Dumb-ocrats because they are dumb in so many ways. They've redistricted for years. And now we took our shot, and it looks like we're going to pick up a lot of seats, and that's a good thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: As he left the White House for his trip to China, the President there was praising the nationwide redistricting war that has seen both parties moving to redraw their state's maps ahead of November's midterm elections.
Right now, Republicans are winning that battle. They did hit a road block today, though, in their efforts to gain even more seats. That's because, after the President had pushed South Carolina Republicans to, quote, "BE BOLD AND COURAGEOUS" in their redistricting efforts, five Republican state senators actually voted to reject a redrawn map that would have eliminated the only Democratic-held seat in that state.
My political and legal sources are back with me.
And Shermichael, why do you think there are Republicans in South Carolina, those five, at least, didn't do what the President wanted them to?
SINGLETON: Look because, I think they believe in what most conservatives, contextually believe, if you go all the way back to Burke or fast-forward to Russell Kirk, and that is, when you redistribute outcomes, you ferment resentment. And that is the very last thing we want because, the ultimate outcome there is that people no longer believe in the system. They no longer believe that you have to debate and dialog like citizens, as opposed to fighting like enemies within the country. Nothing works for anybody in that regard.
And so, I understand the notion to want to win. I'm a conservative. I want to win. I believe in free enterprise. And I believe we have a strong argument to make to the voters that's certainly better than the Mamdanis of the world. But there is a process in which you communicate that to the American people. Any more than I like what Democrats have done in Massachusetts, where there are zero Republican congressional districts at all. This is bad all the way around, Kaitlan.
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: Well, I mean, Karen, we heard from a former top aide at the White House, James Blair.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: He's now leading the President's midterm operation. He said, South Carolina isn't done, obviously, in their view.
What do you think is going to happen there?
FINNEY: Well, they may think that's true. We'll see. I mean, we were -- I mean, essentially they were talking about getting rid of Jim Clyburn's district. And Jim Clyburn has been a very effective member of Congress for the people of South Carolina. So, the politics are different.
But I just want to take a very quick step back because, what the President said there, we were talking last segment, that itself is another ad to be made. We are looking at black political power literally being wiped off the map in certain states across this country. And when he was asked about it, the President said, he thought it was great. That is an ad, that sound bite, we're going to clip and run it over and over again, to help mobilize black Americans, who are already furious, and young Americans, at what they see happening.
Just think about this. In 54 years, we were able to elect 62 members of the Congressional Black Caucus. We are now talking about, within weeks, we may lose a third of those seats. Now, that does not represent a multi-racial effective democracy.
And it's more than a political issue, frankly. It's a moral issue. And it just shows this President really doesn't care about this country. He doesn't care about the people of this country, as he said in the last clip that you played, when he was asked about that and asked about the war, and he said he never thinks about the people. COLLINS: I mean, Elie, as we've seen, you know, from the political arguments, as Karen said, the moral arguments here. I mean from the logical perspective. I mean, in Virginia, if Democrats actually wanted to be successful there, it's kind of remarkable how they went about it, given why their map was thrown out. Wasn't just because the basis of it. It was because, they didn't actually follow their own rules in Virginia for this.
HONIG: Exactly. And the pace at which this is all happening is really astonishing. I mean, for decades, we more or less had a framework for how and when gerrymandering works. But just in the last several days, we've seen every day at least one new state, sometimes multiple states in a day, are trying to redraw their maps.
And there's really just two main things that I think everyone needs to keep in mind because, it may not make sense to some people. Some states are able to redistrict. Others are being blocked. Here's the two things.
One, it is up to the states, if they want to redraw their lines and be hard-left, hard-right, 12 to zero, whatever it may be, they can generally do that, but they have to follow their own rules, which Virginia failed to do, which is why theirs failed.
COLLINS: Which is kind of amazing.
HONIG: It's unbelievable that they failed. It was just they had to count off a certain number of days. They didn't do it right. They tried to backdoor it, and they lost, and I don't think the Supreme Court is going to save them.
The only thing, and this is part two, the Supreme Court has said, the only thing we're going to get involved in is, you cannot consider race in drawing those lines.
So, for the last -- since the passage of the Voting Rights Act in 1965, states have used that power to intentionally draw majority black districts to yield some of the numbers that Karen talked about. Now you can't do that. And so, we're seeing states, especially in the South, including Alabama, including Missouri, saying, We want to redraw our districts and get rid of those racially-drawn lines.
So, it's leading to chaos. And here we are, what, a month out from some midterms? And people don't know where the lines are going to be, when the primaries start, and who the candidates are.
COLLINS: Well, and some of them are in certain time -- I mean, Alabama, some of them are in -- today, they announced certain dates. Others are later, for people like Terri Sewell.
I mean, Harry, as you're looking at this. Because, it is hard to keep up with every single day. How much harder does this make it for Democrats to win back the House? Or is it, you know, should the White House be as confident as they seem? Or what's your statistics?
ENTEN: I don't know if I'd be as confident as the White House makes it seem because, the bottom line is this. I like to put it into some perspective in terms of what is the margin in which Republicans or Democrats need to win nationwide in order to maintain House control for the Republicans, gain it back to the Democrats.
In terms of the popular vote. What are we talking about? Well, going into this cycle, before all this redistricting, we were basically saying, Look, if Democrats win the national House popular vote, that is, get more votes nationwide than Republicans, they're going to win back the House. Now, it's more like three to four points.
Now, what does that mean? If you look at the average of polls right now on the generic ballot, Democrats are ahead by six. You don't have to be a mathematical genius to know that six is greater than three to four. So look, they have a higher hill to climb, but it is one that at this point they look well-positioned to climb. Of course, with all the craziness in this world, we'll just have to wait and see.
COLLINS: Yes.
Harry Enten. Elie. Shermichael. Karen. Great to have all of you here tonight. Thank you so much.
Up next for us. Another top leader has just resigned from a critical agency. That's because he was on the verge of being fired by the President.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The FDA commissioner, Dr. Marty Makary, is leaving his post just days after it was reported that the President had signed off on a plan to oust him.
Dr. Makary had come under intense pressure, we are told, from the administration, over his resistance to approving flavored e-cigarette sales.
The President said this today about Makary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Did you ask Marty Makary to resign, sir? Or did you fire your FDA commissioner?
TRUMP: Well, I don't want to say it, but Marty is a great guy. He's a friend of mine. He's a wonderful man, and he's going to be off and the assistant -- the deputy is taking over temporarily until we find -- everybody wants that job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, the President later posted a message of Dr. Makary resigning to him, where he wrote in a message, saying doctor -- saying President Trump -- Dr. President Trump, Please accept my resignation, effective today. During my tenure, I announced 50 major FDA reforms. Joe Biden's FDA had none. It's been the honor of a lifetime to serve as your FDA Commissioner. I am forever grateful.
[22:00:00]
I should note, this departure of Marty Makary as the FDA commissioner now leaves three of the top ranks at the Health and Human Services Department vacant. That comes, after the CDC director was ousted in August, and the President also pulled his pick for the Surgeon General just last month.
We'll keep you updated on that front.
Thanks so much for joining us here on THE SOURCE tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
