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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Hegseth: Reports Of Poor Conditions On Carrier "Misrepresented"; Kennedy Center Board Votes To Put Trump's Name Back On Building; Sources: Mangione Could Plead Guilty Tomorrow In Federal Case. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired August 13, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --you can hear the full interview, it's about 30 minutes, with Paige, in 15 minutes. Again, join my live streaming show, 09:15 p.m. Eastern, at CNN.com/AllThereIs. I hope to see you there.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: A U.S. Navy ship pushed to the limit, with reports of sailors going overboard, and worsening conditions. What Secretary Pete Hegseth is saying about all of that tonight.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
For more than five months, thousands of American sailors and Marines have been stuck at sea, caught in a war that the President once claimed would last four to six weeks.
But tonight, we're learning more about the toll that this continued conflict is taking on U.S. service members and their families. Sources say, a sailor went overboard, earlier this month, from the USS Abraham Lincoln. That's according to three U.S. officials who tell CNN the sailor was rescued within an hour. The sailor was wearing a life vest, and the Navy considered it to be a cry for help mental health incident.
The Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, today responded to these reports about conditions aboard the Lincoln.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Yes, completely misrepresented. Listen, we make sure that every ship, every crew, every captain has everything we can provide them at every single moment. Some deployments are longer than others, and I have more respect and gratitude for those sailors than anybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But long, open-ended deployments aren't limited to just the Lincoln, which left its home port back in November.
The USS Gerald R. Ford broke a post-Cold War deployment record of nearly 11 months, before a fire that happened on board forced it back to port for repairs.
For those aboard ships remaining in the Middle East, the Vice President has underlined what he says the administration's current objectives are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I know that oil is down today, and it's way down from the highs in the early days of the conflict. That's goal number one: keep oil and gas cheap for Americans all over our country.
WILL CAIN, FOX NEWS HOST: Right.
VANCE: And then, obviously, goal number two is ensure that Iran never gets a nuclear weapon. I feel confident we're accomplishing both of those goals, but it's inherently an unpredictable thing because the Iranians themselves are unpredictable, and they sometimes don't honor the commitments they've made to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, what they are doing to get goal number two there is what is affecting goal number one, he says, about keeping gas prices low for Americans here at home.
The Vice President there did not make any mention of other goals that have been stated, like eliminating Iran's missile program, making sure that it doesn't threaten its neighbors or even reopening the Strait of Hormuz.
And while the USS George Washington Carrier Group is headed to the Middle East to replace the Lincoln, it's unclear tonight how long that deployment could last.
Just today, Secretary Hegseth said the Navy could maintain its blockade of Iranian ports, quote, Indefinitely, a timeline that would seem to be very different than this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: The media here, not all of it, but much of it wants you to think, just 19 days into this conflict that we're somehow spinning toward an endless abyss or a forever war or a quagmire. Nothing could be further from the truth.
So, this talk about endless wars or forever wars. The President points out rightfully what this town tolerated in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam. That is not this.
You want to talk about a forever war? For two months, this president has stared them down, he's going to get a better deal than anyone ever has, and ensure that Iran never has a nuclear weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My sources tonight are:
CNN's Anchor and Chief Investigative Correspondent, Pamela Brown.
The National Security Correspondent for The Wall Street Journal, Alex Ward.
And as well as our CNN Global Affairs Analyst, Karim Sadjadpour.
And Pam, I want to start with you because you actually spent time on board the USS Lincoln recently. What was it like in your interactions with the service men and women that you met on board?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kaitlan, the experience of around 5,000 people on one ship out at sea for so long, of course, is not going to be the same for everyone.
But my reporting indicates, it's hardest on the younger enlisted sailors who don't go out on the flight deck and are largely kept indoors and doing repetitive work in tight quarters, like mopping floors day in, day out, and getting food that is subpar, not knowing when they'll be home.
Now, for context, Kaitlan, nearly half of the ship is under the age of 25. And it's a very different experience for the enlisted sailors versus the officers aboard.
[21:05:00]
At one point, the sailors had to ration food because of logistical complexities during combat. That was over by the time I was on board. But still, a lot of them, they weren't too happy with the food they were getting. They were ready to get home to a home-cooked meal or have chipotle, Chinese food, they all had their wish list.
Some sailors said that they felt like their shipmates were family and they were proud to be there serving their country. Others said, morale was low, and they wanted to get out. They all told me, they understood they have to complete their duties each day as part of the larger mission. But their grit and resilience, Kaitlan, are surely being tested after so many months at sea without regular port visits.
Here's what one sailor, Randall Stone, told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDALL STONE, USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN: The morale is low because we haven't hit a port in about seven months. I mean, I haven't stepped off the ship in the year 2026. I haven't been off the -- I haven't been off the ship. I haven't touched land.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, this is all causing wear and tear, as you can imagine.
I've spoken to several family members today of sailors aboard, and they had varying degrees of concern about the conditions and length of the deployment.
One father said his enlisted daughter hasn't said anything negative. He said he'd be sounding the alarm if there was an issue he knew of. But he also raised the questions of preparedness. Why has the ship been out there for so long? Why hasn't there been a more rotation with these ships?
Two other family members said they're really worried about the mental health, hygiene, and morale. With one telling me, quote, We're all a nervous wreck, after her nephew told his family, back in May, when the deadline was extended for that ship that he wasn't doing well. And then she saw a picture of him, he had lost a lot of weight in pictures.
I just got off the phone with a Navy sailor who's not on that ship, just before the show, Kaitlan, who said her friends are really struggling aboard right now.
So, it's really mixed depending on who you talk to. But bottom line, they all want their loved ones home.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, it's remarkable to hear him tell you, the entire year of 2026 he has been on that ship, has not stepped foot on land.
BROWN: Yes.
COLLINS: When it comes to, it's not limited just to the Lincoln. What are you hearing from officers on other ships in terms of how to address the stress and the uncertainty of this war?
BROWN: Yes, I think that's such an important question to remember that there are submarines, there are these smaller destroyer warships on the frontlines with fewer resources than aircraft carriers that have also been at sea for nearly nine months. They're doing the blockade as well right now as we speak for a second time.
I actually went on board the Frank E. Petersen Jr. That's one of the destroyers that is charged with protecting the Abraham Lincoln. And here's what the Commander of that destroyer told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. CASEY MAHON, COMMANDING OFFICER, USS FRANK E. PETERSEN JR.: So the biggest challenge is the people, the sailors who haven't -- who haven't been home, you know, for a while.
We've been out here, very stressful situation, always on, ready to go, always ready to take action, and that's wearing on a person. You know, very honest, I think, assessment of it, and we try to really have ways to vent that. We talked -- you know, we have various behavior therapy groups, right? We have full sessions. People can come in and say, This is how I feel. And we just try to really give everybody a chance to vent that feeling and have a chance to say, Hey, you know what? This is a tough situation. It's stressful, and I need ways to relieve that stress. We try to do that in very healthy ways. We had -- we have like the meme wall, down below--
BROWN: Yes.
MAHON: --where sailors can put up all the different memes of how they feel. We do things where we'll like have ice cream socials. We'll have various, you know, chances on the mess decks to do games and those kind of things. But really, is anything we can do to alleviate that stress, is probably the biggest thing I worry about on a daily basis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And Kaitlan, as you could probably see there, I mean that -- the destroyers just go up and down. I mean, if you're prone to seasickness, imagine being on that for nine months. They're very small and in choppy waters. It can be so tough.
I reached out to the Navy to get a statement, and the Navy said, quote, We have not observed an increase in suicidal ideations or attempts aboard the ship, and that they take the well-being of every sailor seriously with a variety of resources like chaplains, counselors, and a therapy dog that I met, named Captain Fathom.
But right now, bottom line is the best medicine for a lot of these sailors is just to get home. We know that the USS George Washington ship is en route to take over in about a week or so. But Navy officials caution, Kaitlan, that that timeline could change, and it's really that uncertainty that is at the root of so much anxiety for these sailors and their families.
COLLINS: Yes, much longer than that four to six week deadline that the President initially put on this.
BROWN: Yes.
COLLINS: Pam, excellent reporting, and it's great to have your perspective on this important story.
BROWN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Thank you for that, Pam.
And as I mentioned, Karim and Alex are here with me.
And Karim, when you listen to Pam's report, and you hear what she heard from a lot of these service members themselves, and it comes to the morale, the questions about this, the timeline, the uncertainty. How do the Iranians monitor a report like that one?
KARIM SADJADPOUR, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, IRAN EXPERT, SENIOR FELLOW, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: It's an important question, Kaitlan. [21:10:00]
And the Iranian dictatorship are very avid consumers of America's free media. And so, the data points they look at, one, as Pam beautifully reported, very low morale among American forces, low munitions in the American military, the diminished popularity of this war, politicians -- anti-war politicians, anti-Israel politicians being elected in primary elections.
I think all these data points embolden the Iranian regime, and in some ways leads them to overplay their hand because I believe they think they're much stronger than they actually are.
COLLINS: Yes, and when it comes to how they monitor this. Alex. You heard the Vice President there in that interview today talking about this, talking about preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon is the second priority. He was saying the first one was keeping prices low for Americans here at home for oil, for gas. I wonder what that tells you in terms of the messaging from the administration and where they think this war is headed.
ALEX WARD, NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Well, today was a pretty bad day for Iran messaging for the administration, right? Actually, Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, also said that the U.S. could have the blockade going indefinitely, right? And then, as you noted, the Vice President said it was the oil and gas prices lower first, and then the nuclear weapon bit second, and in the order of priorities. And it's another example of how the shifting narrative of this war. Right?
First, there was a regime change aspect, where the President literally called on Iranians to overthrow their government. Then it became, Well, it's actually a military exercise. Then, the President narrowed it down to, Well, we're really just going after the nuclear weapon. And now, you've heard the Vice President say, Actually, the nuclear weapon bit is the second priority. And oh, by the way, instead of it lasting four to six weeks, the Defense Secretary says, It could be an indefinite blockade here when the blockade is an act of war.
So, if you're just a consumer watching the news here, just listening to the Trump administration's talking points, you're getting a bit of whiplash here, and you also, rightfully, probably don't know when this war is going to end.
COLLINS: Karim, how do you hear Hegseth saying there could be an indefinite blockade, with him testifying, It's not a forever war. It's not like these other conflicts that Americans are all too familiar with. And what we've heard, not just from him, but also from the Vice President and other senior officials.
SADJADPOUR: Kaitlan, this is -- this war at the moment is not a test of strength. Obviously, America is significantly stronger than the Islamic Republic of Iran. But it's a test of will and a test of resolve. And at the moment, I don't see signs that this is a regime preparing to compromise. I think they're committed to revenge. They want to humiliate President Trump, and I think they're at least committed to that path, through our midterm elections in November.
COLLINS: Alex, if, I mean, if it goes on for that long, and we've already seen how this is affecting the administration on a day-to-day basis.
I mean, I think it was five days after the President was taken secretly on that catering truck, at the Turkish airport, where he was saying that Iran has no capabilities, it can't do anything, that the United States is in complete control when it came not just to their navy but also to the skies.
I mean, obviously, we've seen that Iran does still pose a threat, even if it's different than what it was back in January before the war started.
What's the latest that stands out to you in terms of how that incident with the President and Air Force One fits into all of this?
WARD: Yes, I mean, importantly, as you know, the intelligence picture about what the threat to the President was, was murky and a bit vague, and the Secret Service just decided to ensure the President's safety, it took no risks.
But what it shows is something pretty extraordinary, right? I mean, you had the President have to hide from a potential Iranian threat at a NATO capital, after a NATO summit, and that's just an astounding thing. Because if the President is so confident that the Iranians can't do anything to the U.S., then why does he have to hide from the Iranians, and on top of that, in a friendly nation?
Now, you even heard the President multiple times say, Well, yes, the U.S. is in charge of the Strait. But the Iranians can do something, right? They can launch a drone, they can launch a missile, maybe there's a mine or two. So, he's acknowledging that, yes, the U.S. has the upper hand here, militarily; it is the stronger party. But the asymmetric benefit Iran has here, or the asymmetric capabilities, makes them still dangerous.
And when you, again, if you're on those ships for many days, not coming to a port, you're hearing the Secretary say, It could be indefinite, and you're also hearing the President say, Well, the Iranians can still cause some problems here. It's very likely that this war continues for quite some time, maybe through the midterms, especially when the President's current strategy is a kind of sit and wait and let the economic pain seep in.
COLLINS: Yes, fewer than 90 days to go before that too.
Alex Ward. Karim Sadjadpour. Pamela Brown. Thank you all for being here tonight to start us off.
[21:15:00]
Up next. Also in Washington, the Kennedy Center's got a next play in mind. It's the board that the President handpicked to oversee the Kennedy Center. Now they believe they have found a new way to get his name on that building.
And also tonight, could sky-high Democratic primary turnout be another sign that a blue wave is building ahead of the midterm elections? We've got Harry Enten on the numbers right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:20:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump's handpicked Kennedy Center board is testing the bounds of a federal judge's order, after voting for a second time to close the historic arts center for renovations, with one particular renovation in mind: a new plan to add the President's name to the facade of the building.
Now, yes, we've been talking about this, where now sources say the board has voted to add an inscription below the famous Kennedy Center sign that would read, quote, "Restored and Renovated By President Donald J. Trump." The move appears to be a creative work around that judge's ruling that came in May that said the law makes crystal clear that the Center is to be named for President Kennedy, and that cannot bear any other formal name or public memorial based on the board's unilateral say-so.
Now, Trump's name was subsequently taken down, but the sign has stayed hidden by tarps. I was at the Kennedy Center, long ago. There was security actually in front of said tarps protecting it.
Now the President's focus has not just been on the Kennedy Center in terms of his broader push to remake Washington. It's also his penchant for branding everything in his name. That includes the gold coins, the Trump passports, the National Park passes, the Palm Beach Airport -- I'm not done -- the banner at the Justice Department, the new class of battleships. There are many things, not just in Washington, but all across the nation, now bearing the Trump name.
Joining me tonight on this, my sources are:
Shawn McCreesh, who is a White House correspondent for The New York Times.
Veteran Democratic strategist, Paul Begala.
And Scott Jennings, who is the former special assistant to President George W. Bush.
And Shawn, obviously, you've covered the Kennedy Center extensively in terms of what is going on here. What do you make of now how they're trying to get around the judge, saying, You can't just name it the Trump-Kennedy Center. But now they're saying, Oh, we're just going to engrave it on the building?
SHAWN MCCREESH, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes, I mean, to actually scrape it into the marble is more permanent than to have a sign out front. And it's quite interesting because, this is meant as a memorial to another president who was assassinated. I think that -- you know, in your intro, you talked about all the other construction projects. And I think what's interesting about the Kennedy Center, it reminds me of the Reflecting Pool, and how they kept trying all those cases that were going to fall apart.
There's -- you know, these are technically small things that don't affect tens of millions of people or global trade. It's not an issue of war and peace. And yet, the smallness of these incidents have a way of magnifying how strange the behavior of the royal court around Trump is. I mean, I think it's very strange that a board of people who are loyal to him got together today and said, No, we are going to scrape your name on the wall after we've been told to take it off. That's very unique behavior.
COLLINS: Unique is a word for it.
Well, and after the judge's ruling came down in May, I was kind of surprised because Trump put out a statement, basically saying, OK, fine, you guys deal with it. You can deal with the renovations, whatever. Saying it was in Congress's hands.
But The Atlantic is reporting today that they got a copy of this resolution, and there's a provision that says, Once an obscure endowment known as the Trump Kennedy Center Fund hits a $100 million in donations, it would expand the signage to also include a third line that would say Endowed by the Trump Kennedy Center Fund.
MCCREESH: Yes, I mean, so the Center is shutting down as a place to go see art for the next couple years, but it's still going to basically be his sandbox to play in and to redo it, however he sees fit. So, I think this could be not the end, but we're going to see a lot of ideas come from him with what he wants to do with it.
COLLINS: Scott, do you think, as a Republican, that this is a good use of the President's time?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SR. ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL, FORMER SPECIAL ASST. TO PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH, HOST, "THE SCOTT JENNINGS RADIO SHOW" ON SRN: Well, I don't know how much time he's actually spending on it. Although I do think he's taken more of an interest in the Kennedy Center than every president since the building opened, and that's a good thing.
What's wrong with the President of the United States, whoever it is, taking an interest in an institution which, by the way, is important to Washington? It's an important thing, and it should be a nice thing. It did need to be renovated. I don't know what the legalities are around the signage. They're obviously going to try this thing in this new resolution. I suspect somebody will sue them, and I suspect a judge will weigh in on that. That's all perfectly fine.
I think the most important thing is, is that the Kennedy Center be the best building that it can be. Trump has actually taken an interest in doing that, and he's raised money to do that. And I don't know why people would be upset about that, to be honest.
COLLINS: Paul, what's your response to Scott's argument? Do you think that there's nothing to be upset about?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I have a better idea. That list you read of things that he's naming after was long. But I have a 160,000 more things I want to name after Trump.
A 160,000 gas stations in America. We need to put his name on every one of them. Say, Brought to you by Donald J. Trump. When he took office, gas was $2.95 a gallon. Today it's $4.07. I want him to get full credit for that, Kaitlan.
[21:25:00]
And let's name more things. Let's name it the Trump War in Iran. Let's name it the Trump grocery inflation. How about in the midterm, in 81 days, we call it the Trump blue wipeout? Because 73 percent of Americans in our poll, CNN's poll, say that Trump is not paying attention to the top issues in their lives. This is exactly what they mean. They want their president focused on groceries, gas, and rent.
And so, I think we should put his name on every doggone gas station in America. I can't wait. Scott's going to love that, right?
COLLINS: I mean, Scott, I think to Paul's point--
JENNINGS: Me? Look--
COLLINS: --I don't know if all the gas stations are going to be named after him. It does make me think of when they would put those Biden stickers, when gas was extremely high, on gas pumps.
But Scott, to Paul's point, if Americans don't feel that the President is doing enough to deal with the economy and that he's making it worse, which typically has been a strong point of his and now is a low point. Do you think Americans like that he's spending any time on this?
JENNINGS: First of all, just as a response to Paul, it would be like a Democrat to suggest nationalizing all the gas stations or a major industry. So, I'll leave him -- I'll leave him to do that. Look, the--
BEGALA: No. No. Just giving him -- just giving him credit.
JENNINGS: The -- the--
BEGALA: Just giving him credit for the inflation he's caused.
JENNINGS: The economy is going to be the top issue in the election. It's the top issue in every election, and that's been true for Paul's career and it has been true for mine. And so, that's not going to change. The Republicans and Trump are going to make an argument about it, and the Democrats are going to make an argument about it.
Largely, the Democratic argument is going to be based around the principles of socialism, larger government, raising everybody's taxes to take over large sectors of our economy, such as health care. So, they're going to argue that's better for the economy. We're going to argue, lower taxes is better for the economy, more energy exploration in the United States is better for the economy, and so on. And I think both -- I think it's going to be a bright line, and we'll see who wins.
But no, look, I'm fully cognizant of, and every Republican is cognizant of, that we're going to have a big debate over the economy. I'm just not willing to cede any ground to a bunch of Democrats who let these socialists, communists, Marxists, whatever you want to call them, take over their party. I don't think any American really wants their economic ideas to be installed in this country, no matter what quibbles they might have with Donald Trump.
COLLINS: Well, in terms of the economy being the biggest issue in the election, Scott, which you said you believe is going to be the case, I think, 83 days from now. I want everyone to listen to what the argument and message that I thought was an interesting one that the Vice President was putting out there today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: Our response to that can't be just to ignore the economic concerns that I think are feeding this rising interest in socialism.
And my warning to my fellow Republicans, Will, would be if we don't get this right, don't blame young people for being sympathetic to socialism. We've got to blame ourselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Shawn, when you hear that message, and you think about what we hear from White House officials every day in terms of the economy. I mean, he's saying that -- his message to Republicans. I mean, he is the second most prominent Republican underneath President Trump himself, driving what they are hoping will be this message for November.
MCCREESH: I think that their political operation has lost a lot of its populist juice, and part of that does have to do with our earlier conversation about what the President is focused on.
But Vance's entire sort of political promise is that he is in touch with those vibes within the base, and it has to do with his background and where he came from and everything. So, I think we're seeing him trying to kind of wake that back up. And he can stay on message. We'll see if it works.
COLLINS: I mean, Scott, what did you make of that argument there in terms of, he said, Our response can't just be to ignore the economic concerns that I think are feeding this. I mean, is that a recognition of what voters are saying right now that they do have real concerns about this?
JENNINGS: Well, I totally agree, you cannot ignore people's economic concerns, but you don't also have to ignore the prescriptions of the other party. I think Republicans are more than capable of doing both. You can say, I know you have these concerns. Here's what we're doing about it. Here's what they would do about it. And here's why our program is better than theirs. That's Campaign 101.
But I agree with him fundamentally. You never want to ignore what the voters are telling you. And if they're telling you they have this or that economic concern, it's a Republican's job to say, Here are the bills we've passed. Here are the regulations we've cut. Here are the things we've done to try to ease your pressures on that area.
COLLINS: Yes.
JENNINGS: That's what any good campaign and certainly any good incumbent would do.
COLLINS: Scott, I have to ask you because, the White House announced yesterday, Karoline Leavitt is leaving as press secretary. Your name keeps getting floated, which I'm sure you've seen. Have you heard anything from the White House on that job opening?
JENNINGS: I don't really have anything to say about it, other than, I mean, I would get to see you every day, and I would think you'd be happy about this--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: You already -- I already see you every day.
JENNINGS: --I'm just saying like every single -- not really.
COLLINS: Pretty much.
JENNINGS: We see each other one or two days a week. But can you imagine every single day, getting to go to work, where I am -- I mean, this should be -- this should be an amazing thing for you.
COLLINS: We already work together, Scott. OK. But that's not a no. So just going to--
JENNINGS: I'm not here every night.
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: Paul Begala, I'm not going to ask you because I already know the answer to that. You have not gotten a call from the Trump White House to be their spokesperson.
Paul Begala. Scott Jennings.
BEGALA: Scott's a great guy though.
COLLINS: Shawn McCreesh--
BEGALA: I honestly -- that's a thankless job, and I don't wish on anybody. I especially don't wish it on Scott because he's my friend. (LAUGHTER)
COLLINS: The audience is going to have some thoughts on that.
It's great to have all of you here. Thank you so much.
Up next, as I mentioned, we're tracking what is turning out to be a Democratic surge in these primaries in several states. Harry Enten has been looking at some pretty eye-popping primary turnout numbers and what they could foreshadow for the President and his party, come November.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, after a bruising Democratic primary, brand-new polling shows that Michigan's Democratic Senate nominee, Abdul El- Sayed, is trailing his Republican opponent, Mike Rogers, in the first look at the general election matchup. Now, this is a Fox News poll that found Rogers has a slight edge with 51 percent, El-Sayed at 47 percent, which I should note is within the poll's margin of error.
Luckily, here to suss these numbers out is CNN's Chief Data Analyst, Harry Enten.
And Harry, obviously people might be like, skeptical of all this polling because we saw it was wrong in Wisconsin, we saw it was wrong in Michigan. What do you make of these numbers and do you trust them so far?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: I mean, I trust them insofar as they're probably an accurate read of where the race is, right? But given that Donald Trump's net favorability rating in that poll is minus 19 points, I'm not sure it's necessarily going to be where the race ends up being on Election Day.
That being said, Abdul El-Sayed is a weak candidate by the metrics we normally go by. Just take a look at the net favorability rating of him in that poll. That is the favorable minus unfavorable. Look at this. He's 13 points on underwater. That is his unfavorable rating, it's 13 points higher than his favorable rating. And that is extremely unusual for the Democratic Senate candidates, the nominees who are running this year.
You see the Northern battleground ones that I have up in the graphic there. They're all on the plus side of the ledger. And so, El-Sayed is significantly weaker than these other Democrats who are running.
And I will also note, I went back and I tried to find every single poll I could find, at this point, in previous Michigan Senate campaigns in the 21st century. I believe that El-Sayed being down by that four-point margin is the weakest that any Democrat has polled at this point in the Senate race this entire century.
COLLINS: So, we'll see what happens over the next three months. But one thing that has stood out to me, as we've been watching these numbers, and who's winning these primaries, is just the turnout period from Democrats.
ENTEN: It's been absolutely bonkers huge. So, I went ahead and I tried to tally up all of the turnout so far in the primaries. If you thought the Michigan Senate poll was bad for Democrats, the turnout numbers in the primaries are very good news for Democrats.
What are we talking about? This year, across all the primaries, it's 25-plus million, 25-plus million so far. You'll go back to 2018, which was a bonkers years for Democrats. For the entire primary season, it was just 23 million. So, Democrats are already running ahead of where they were in 2018, which was a year in which they did extremely well in the House races, not nearly as well in the Senate races, but that map was tilted against them in a way that this year's, simply put, is not.
COLLINS: So, the President quotes you a lot. I mean, if you're the White House, or Trump's political operation, and you're looking at those numbers, what are you seeing so far?
ENTEN: I'm running scared. I'm running scared. Look, the numbers don't lie. I tell it like it is. Whatever the numbers say, that's where I go.
You see that turnout high so far on the Democratic side. That, to me, is emblematic of a President of the United States, who is deeply underwater. And it matters. Because if you look over history, right? You go back to past midterm cycles. You go back over the last 20 years. Which side had the higher turnout, every single time, since 2006, that side went on to win the U.S. House of Representatives. These numbers matter.
COLLINS: Harry Enten, or as the President calls you, Harry Enden.
ENTEN: Whatever. You know what, just don't call me like the supper (ph) and we'll be great.
COLLINS: Harry, thank you so much.
ENTEN: Thank you.
COLLINS: I'm also joined tonight by my congressional source, a Democrat whose seat is going to be open this November. Senator Tina Smith of Minnesota.
And thank you, Senator, for being here.
When you hear those numbers that Harry just laid out, in terms of your party's turnout, what does that signify to you about how Democrats are feeling right now?
SEN. TINA SMITH (D-MN): Well, I was just thinking about this in Minnesota, where Democratic turnout in our primary was the highest turnout we have ever seen, historically, in Minnesota, for an August primary. It's almost double what the Republicans were able to get. And they have a very contested primary for both the governor and the Senate on the Republican side.
So, I think what you're seeing and what, honestly, what Peggy Flanagan is tapping into in Minnesota is just this real, like, anger that this is -- this whole situation is not working for Minnesotans. Things cost too much, their incomes are too low, and they're looking for candidates that are ready to get after it. And I think that's why you're seeing Peggy and others, like her, around the country winning.
[21:40:00]
COLLINS: On the poll that we just saw out of Michigan, this new Fox News poll that shows El-Sayed down when it came to the matchup with Mike Rogers. You backed him over Haley Stevens in that race. Do you have concerns about his electability in a general election?
SMITH: Well, look, I agree with Harry that this is a snapshot in time. I mean, of course, we want to see these numbers higher. But we've seen so much, so many polls that have gone up and down over the course of the many months of the primary, and we're still, what did you say, 83 days away from the general election?
And remember, Abdul had, what, $65 million, $70 million spent against him in the primary, basically trying to define him. And so, these campaigns are going to be contests, and we have work to do, all over the place. We can't take any of these races for granted.
COLLINS: You mentioned how voters are feeling, the anger over cost and being able to just afford everything. It's not just anger directed at the President and his party, though. There's polls that show nearly six in 10 Democrats and Democratic-leaning Independents think that the Democratic Party needs major changes, if not total reform. Is that something you agree with?
SMITH: I actually do. I actually think that there are too many in my party that sort of go along to get along. That they are not really talking about making bigger changes. That they -- voters see too many in my party as just being part of the status quo and not independent- minded. And again, I think that is one of the reasons why our Lieutenant Governor, Peggy Flanagan, won the primary in Minnesota because she was seen as standing up to that.
I want to just say, in rural parts of this country, and especially in the Midwest, there is a strong historical thread that is sort of anti- establishment, populist, little guys against the big guys, and I see that happening in my state, and I think it's happening all over the place. This isn't an urban versus rural or left versus right issue. It's like, are you going to be fighting for me, or are you going to be sort of going along with the powers that be?
COLLINS: Well, a lot of these progressive candidates that have been winning in races have said, should they win their elections and be elected to the U.S. Senate, they're not going to back Chuck Schumer as the Majority Leader. Do you think that, that there should be new leadership in the Senate for your party? SMITH: Well, so, I think what's happening is that our candidates are being asked that question and they're saying what they think. I can tell you that I think we ought to be focused on making sure that we're going to have the opportunity to elect a majority leader, and that we are focused on winning these elections.
And there's going to be plenty of time to figure out who the leader of the Democratic majority should be. I believe we're going to win the majority in November. And I'll look forward to being a part of those conversations, even though I won't be in the Senate, next year.
COLLINS: Well, I think -- I think that's a good point. Obviously, you can't elect a leader until they've actually won the Senate, if they do. But in terms of getting there, we did not see Chuck Schumer endorse Abdul El-Sayed in that race. Obviously, he won. So, it might raise questions in terms of if Democratic leadership is in touch with what Democratic voters want in their candidates right now.
SMITH: I mean, look, I think that for me and a lot of people right now, the issue is we all know that Chuck wants nothing more than to have Democrats in control of the majority, so that we can use the power that we would then have to stop the worst of this Trump administration. And we have disagreements about what is the best way to do that, but those are honest disagreements, and that's what we're working forward.
And as we go through this election, we're going to see. I believe that insurgent candidates that are kind of running from the outside are the ones that are connecting with voters, that are mobilizing that grassroots support that's so important.
And the other thing that we're seeing in these primaries, which is so interesting, is even though there is massive flooding of dollars against these insurgent candidates by, like, tech and crypto, that money isn't determining the outcome at the end. It's organizing power and grassroots power that is actually what's making the difference. So, that's what we're going to see, as this election goes forward. But I'm feeling very optimistic about it.
COLLINS: Senator Tina Smith, always appreciate your time. So, thank you for joining us tonight.
SMITH: Thank you.
COLLINS: We have breaking news next, in the Luigi Mangione case. What we're learning about the accused killer's plea negotiations, as he is expected in court tomorrow.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We are following breaking news this hour, as sources tell CNN that Luigi Mangione, yes, the person accused of killing the UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson, could plead guilty to federal criminal charges as soon as tomorrow. Plea negotiations have been ongoing between his attorneys and federal prosecutors, we're told. But the talks have still been fluid, they could fall apart still.
What we do know is that Luigi Mangione has previously pleaded not guilty in both his state and federal cases. In federal cases, he is facing stalking charges that could carry life in prison. In state court, he's been facing second-degree murder charges and weapons charges with jury selection that is set to start in just a few weeks on September 8th. A federal guilty plea could also complicate the state case under New York's double jeopardy law, which prohibits someone from being tried twice for the same crime.
[21:50:00]
Now, Thompson had been shot outside that Midtown Manhattan hotel, back in December of 2024. Luigi Mangione was arrested less than a week later after he was on a run and found in Pennsylvania.
My source tonight is our top legal analyst and the criminal defense attorney, Joey Jackson.
Can you kind of walk us through, first, Luigi's team's thinking here?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So, I think it's a brilliant move, Kaitlan. Good to see you. Here's why.
First of all, you have to look at the practical realities, right? And the evidence here is compelling. So, let's start there. If you're looking to take any plea, you have to evaluate the evidence and you have to determine what's my defense and is it viable.
In this case, we know we have surveillance. We know there's DNA. We know there's the gun. We know there's the manifesto in which he spells out specifically what he wanted to do, Whack the CEO. And so, when you get to the merits of the case and you determine that that's problematic, then you look and see, Well, what's my pathway.
And then you look at the legal realities. The state case starting September 8th, you have to win that. Then you have to go across the street, you have to win the federal case. And how realistic is that?
But what you just mentioned in terms of double jeopardy, I think is the ballgame here. Here's why: what happens is, is if you plead guilty in federal court -- and I think he's incentivized to do it. The legal team is incentivized to speak with him to do it. He's 28-years-old. You enter into a legal plea in federal court. Maybe you get 30 years, right? You'll do 25 of those years. You're still in your 50s and you're out. The other thing that that does, in addition to preserving his life because, if you lose, the judge can say, Hey, you're going to jail for life without parole.
But the other thing you do in terms of double jeopardy, it -- there'll be an immediate motion made by his attorneys to void the state prosecution, and it would essentially be upended. And I think the law is with them in that regard, that if you plead guilty federally to something involving the same transaction and occurrence, similar facts and circumstances, similar harm, that's trying to be eradicated, which is killing someone, I think the state case goes away. He does his years. He gets out at 52, 53, he has his life. It's a good call.
COLLINS: I mean, some people might see this and say, why would the prosecutors take that step?
JACKSON: Yes, I think that's the open question. And I think when you heard, it was back in June that we heard there were these plea negotiations, and then the defense--
COLLINS: They denied it, right?
JACKSON: They're like, No, you're, you know, it's a leaking--
COLLINS: Yes.
JACKSON: --and you're trying to really prejudice my client in the public.
I think the thinking from a prosecutor's perspective is: we control the cards, we have the goods. Is it worth moving forward if we can get something on the front end? Remember, the death penalty is off the table, so we're really looking at a life without parole sentence. But if you can get your 30 years and you're a federal prosecutor, is that enough?
From a defense perspective, you cut your losses at that, and you save your client's life. When I say save life, again, not the death penalty, but you give him an opportunity.
COLLINS: But -- spending his entire life behind bars.
JACKSON: Exactly. So, I think, from both sides' perspective, if they can bridge that gap, it would make sense for him to enter into a plea.
COLLINS: I mentioned jury selection. Supposed to start in just a few weeks from now. In the timing of all of this, are you surprised by that?
JACKSON: So, no, and here's why, Kaitlan. Because it's always at the last minute, right, when things get really real.
You're about to get to the jury selection. You're about to pick a jury. In the event that you go and you have your state trial, now the Feds have their second dibs. If ever there's an opportunity to cut your losses and to gut the state case because they'll make the argument that it is double jeopardy, it arises from the same set of circumstances, the elements are very similar. Avoid that. Make your plea in federal court. Then you're done. I think it would make sense to do it now.
And make no mistake about it, though. There's going to be a vehement pushback by the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, and they may try still to get him in state court, and then a judge, the state judge would have to decide.
COLLINS: But you don't think that'll be successful?
JACKSON: I really don't. I mean, there'll be--
COLLINS: Why--
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: There'll be significant motion practice. It's likely that it'll go through the appellate steps, right?
COLLINS: Yes.
JACKSON: In the event that there's a pushback by the Manhattan D.A.'s office. But I think ultimately, the ill that's being addressed as murder. That's resolved with a federal plea. It's similar to the state. And as a result of that, I think Judge Carro says, Enough is enough. It's double jeopardy.
If -- if there's a plea reached tomorrow--
COLLINS: Yes.
JACKSON: --that's still an open question.
COLLINS: It's a huge if.
JACKSON: Yes.
COLLINS: Things fall apart like this. We see it all the time.
Joey Jackson, it's always great to have you. Thank you for joining us tonight.
JACKSON: Glad to be here.
COLLINS: We'll be following that closely here tomorrow at CNN.
Up next. It is time for Source Code. We give you a number at the center of a story in the news. Can you guess what that story is? Tonight's Source Code is 68. I'll be back in just a moment with the answer.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight's Source Code is 68. And if you didn't guess that, it is for the 68 Rubio Realizing memes that the White House apparently made into a collage as a gift for the Secretary of State for his 55th birthday. He actually got this in May. We learned about it only after Axios reporter, Marc Caputo, tweeted this photo of it recently.
[22:00:00]
The memes, of course, are based on the image of Rubio during that infamous Trump-Zelenskyy meeting in the Oval Office, during that shouting match that took place. The internet has taken this picture, and in a nod to the roles that Rubio has taken on, they've reimagined him as a NASA astronaut, as Super Mario, even the Easter Bunny.
With the President clearly holding Rubio in high regard, he wrote on the picture, quote, You are great.
This is how Secretary Rubio himself responded to that viral meme.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: Well the meme thing, you know, was interesting because, when it first came out, I hated that picture, you know. Because, what happened is in that couch, if you don't have a pillow behind your back, you kind of sink. So, I looked at the picture, I said, Oh, this is terrible. I looked like, whatever. And then it turned into this other thing, and it was fine, and it's funny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Thanks so much for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" starts now.
