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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

USPS Whistleblower Raises "Grave Concerns" About New Ballot System; Iran Launches Missiles In Retaliation For New U.S. Strikes; Trump Picks Hung Cao To Serve As Navy Secretary. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired September 01, 2026 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360 (voice-over): I asked him what it feels like to be a hero.

CHHIRING TAMANG, BUS DRIVER (through translator): It's a sad time for me. I have lost my nephew. He was working in the same school. I'm very sad that my nephew is dead. My nephew called me before I crossed the bridge. This was right after I informed the principal regarding the flood. He told me, Uncle, where are you? There's flood coming in the river.

He was a helper at the school. He informed me to not go to the school. He lives in the same school with his family. He has a daughter, and his wife is disabled. They are safe now. They have nothing left, as my nephew was my only breadwinner of the family.

COOPER (voice-over): Later, he showed us a photo of his nephew. His name was Chidam Lama (ph). There are many heroes here, but even they have heavy hearts.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, that's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight. A whistleblower is warning that the President's plan for mail-in ballots could, quote, Derail the upcoming midterm elections.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

As we come on the air tonight, we are 63 days away from the midterm elections this November, and the term, and forgive my language here, quote, "Shit show" is how one whistleblower is describing a key part of President Trump's plan to overhaul mail-in voting.

Now, that whistleblower is warning that, quote, "Potentially millions of American voters may not receive their mail-in ballot this election cycle in a timely manner, or at all." That whistleblower is an official within the U.S. Postal Service who is describing a sweeping new digital system for verifying mail ballots, which they say is being hidden from the public.

The new system stems from President Trump's executive order that he signed back in March, that gives the Postal Service an unprecedented role when it comes to screening states' mail-in ballot programs.

It's supposed to ensure that only people who are legally allowed to vote can get a ballot. But instead, this new report, which I should note was assembled by the whistleblower's lawyers and released by the Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal, says the system has created a substantial risk of a catastrophic failure, with the potential, they say, to derail the midterm elections.

Now, that whistleblower describes the system as rushed and untested. And for example, according to the report, they say, as presently designed, if even one barcode, on a single ballot, in a bulk mailing of 10,000 ballots, fails to properly scan during the verification process, the entire batch is rejected and sent back to the state, effectively stopping the ballots from being mailed to voters.

Now the Postal Service says tonight, it is still finalizing this system, but this matters because states like North Carolina start mailing out their ballots this Friday. This also comes tonight, as sources say that the federal law enforcement is searching its efforts to investigate voter fraud in a handful of select states.

Internal federal guidance that was reviewed by CNN shows the Department of Homeland Security playing a central role in efforts to find something the President has failed to uncover for nearly a decade now, which is proof of widespread voter fraud. Today, the Secretary of Homeland Security said this about the possibility of ICE officers being at polling places.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARKWAYNE MULLIN, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: I was being very, very clear when I said ICE isn't there to patrol the polling places. We're there to enforce specific threats. The only reason why we would be at polling places, if there is a threat to that polling place, or we're serving to -- yes -- or we're -- or we're serving a warrant on someone that we have been actively tracking down. We're not going to be at the -- that ICE's job is immigration, customs enforcement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now concerns about federal intervention have been looming over the upcoming election, in part because of the President himself and how he's played coy when it comes to things like declaring a national emergency ahead of the midterms.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WAYNE ALLYN ROOT, AMERICAN TELEVISION HOST AND AUTHOR: If they never get the SAVE America Act done, you have the right to declare a national security emergency for elections.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Let me just say that stranger things have happened, OK? I'll leave it at that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, all of this is why it also stood out this week when we heard from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, that's General Dan Caine, who was responding to a request from the Democratic Senator Elissa Slotkin of Michigan, and he had this statement in response to a question she posed to him.

[21:05:00]

He said, quote, "The Joint Force has no plans to send Federal military personnel or Federalized members of the National Guard to polling places during the 2026 election. Likewise, the Joint Force has no plans to use such personnel to seize ballots, voting machines, or other election-related material."

The statement is remarkable in and of itself, given something like that has never been necessary from the American military. But it comes as we're looking at the bigger picture here, and the Republican governor of a very deep-red state, Wyoming, now says the Trump administration is going too far in the Justice Department's efforts to observe the state's primary election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MARK GORDON (R-WY): I just want to make sure, I mean, I feel very strongly about federal government coming in and taking our guns. I don't like that, and I don't like the federal government coming in and taking our votes either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: We start tonight with the Secretary of State from the State of Colorado, which is one of the states that's actually suing the Trump administration over mail-in voting. And Jena Griswold is running to also be the state's next attorney general.

And thank you for joining us tonight.

Because, your state is one where every voter is sent a ballot in the mail. When you hear about this whistleblower report tonight and their concerns about this, are you worried that all of those voters are not going to be able to get a ballot?

JENA GRISWOLD, (D) COLORADO SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, first, thanks for having me.

And I think it's abundantly clear that Trump is trying to use the Postal Service to decide which voters get a ballot. Right now, the Postal Service is blocked from implementing his executive order. That is the legal basis from the Postal Service intervening in elections. The case is ongoing. But I do think it's highly concerning what the whistleblower has announced. If it is true, the idea that the Postal Service would potentially attempt to disenfranchise thousands of people just because one error in uploading these mail ballot information is just outrageous.

I am optimistic that states are going to stop Trump in trying to use the Postal Service in disenfranchising Americans. But make no mistake, Trump is absolutely trying to federalize, exert power that he does not have under the Constitution, and undermine the upcoming elections. But luckily, there are elected officials in states fighting back, and I do believe we are going to win.

COLLINS: Well, but in terms of the Post Office and the Postal Service in their role here. They responded tonight after a few hours they had not commented.

They said that they're carefully reviewing the concerns that were raised by the whistleblower and elevated by Senator Blumenthal, and they said they've spent months developing this Mail Portal to provide election officials with a simple, secure, and efficient way to share lists of individuals getting ballots by mail in their respective states.

Is that how you -- is that your understanding of what the Postal Service has been doing?

GRISWOLD: Well, they have been enjoined recently from working on executing Trump's executive order. So, I would be curious when they were doing all this work, and if it was during the period when they shouldn't have been working on it.

But frankly, we do not quite know what is going on, and that is worrisome in itself. We are 63 days away from Election Day. Ballots for overseas and military voters literally goes -- they go out in three and a half weeks. And to have this type of uncertainty before such a major election is unacceptable. Election plans, the decisions, they have already been made. So again, I think it should be obvious to most people that the Postmaster General shouldn't be the person deciding who gets a mail ballot. It's not his job.

Trump is trying to exercise power he does not have, and I just think it's so important that we stay in the fight, and remind your viewers, this is not their first attempt to interfere with the 2026 election, seize authority, exercise authority that they don't have. We are beating them all along the way, and I'm optimistic we're going to win this battle also.

COLLINS: But just to be clear, on this program. I mean, it was supposed to go into effect today, according to this whistleblower. Do you know what is actually the status of it right now?

GRISWOLD: Well, the Postal Service, right now, is temporarily restrained from executing its work to officiate Trump's executive order. So, there's a temporary restraining order preventing them from doing this work. The DOJ has appealed the temporary restraining order. At the same time, there's a hearing this Thursday on a potential injunction to stop the Postal Service from deciding who gets a ballot, who doesn't.

[21:10:00]

But I do think, we're hopefully going to win this lawsuit. I'm optimistic about that. But even when we win, it should be abundantly clear that Trump is laying the groundwork to try to reject the results in November, if they don't go his way. He is weaponizing the federal government against democracy, against free and fair elections, and we should all be concerned about the length that he is trying to go to.

COLLINS: Jena Griswold, Colorado's Secretary of State, thank you for joining us tonight.

GRISWOLD: Thank you.

COLLINS: And joining me now is:

David Becker, who is the Executive Director and the Founder of the non-partisan non-profit Center for Election Innovation & Research.

And also, our Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig is here.

And David, when you hear what is being laid out here. I mean, there are cases pending here, to the Secretary of State's point. But I think there's real questions about once a judge decides this, should they rule in the favor of the President, as we saw last week with the Supreme Court, is there time to actually implement this?

DAVID BECKER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND FOUNDER, THE CENTER FOR ELECTION INNOVATION & RESEARCH: Yes, I think there's two things going on here.

First, it is pretty troubling to see how this confirms the concerns that many election officials have had for so long about this order, that the Postal Service is not equipped; they don't have the capacity or expertise to do this work. They rush this, put a slapdash effort together.

And basically, their plan, as it's laid out in the whistleblower's allegations, is that they basically accept a massive error rate where there would be potentially millions of mail ballots not delivered to eligible voters who are entitled to receive them, and we might see around 50 million mail ballots in this coming election. So, that's troubling.

On the other hand, the chaos is being resolved. This is blocked right now. It continues to be blocked by the courts. A federal court in Boston is likely to formalize that injunction later this week. There will be an appeal process that goes to the First Circuit and the Supreme Court.

But it is way too late to implement any kind of radical change to our election process at this point, 63 days out, and I think the courts are going to recognize that. I'm actually very confident that voters who vote by mail are going to see the same process they've always seen, and the Supreme Court's not going to change that.

COLLINS: Yes, and to be clear, I mean, voting by mail is safe and sound. I mean, the President himself has done it twice this year.

BECKER: Twice this year, even once when he was actually physically in Palm Beach and could have gone to an early voting site on his own. He's presumably going to vote by mail again in November in Florida.

We've been doing mail voting since at least the Civil War. The states do this really well. It's not just blue states; it's red states like Montana, and Utah, and Idaho, and many others that have embraced vote by mail because that's what their voters want. They want that convenient experience for those voters for whom it might be difficult to get it to get to a polling place.

COLLINS: Elie, I mean, just legally looking at all this and with what we're hearing, not just from the Secretary of State there, in terms of what her state is dealing with, but as you're looking at this 26-page report from the whistleblower, what stands out to you?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Well, Kaitlan, I think the most important word that Jena Griswold just said is uncertainty.

I agree with David when he just said that the legal chaos will be resolved over the next several weeks. But on the ground, in the postal offices, at the state election offices, there will be uncertainty.

And if we look back at the 2020 election, and the attempt to steal the 2020 election, now we've had time to look back at it, and we've seen testimony and memos, and we've gotten a look behind the scenes. The goal there, the strategy there, was not necessarily, Let's steal votes from column A and shift them over to column B. The strategy, and this was written by some of the President's lawyers, was, Let's create chaos that will lead to uncertainty, and then the election can get thrown over to state legislatures that might be more friendly, perhaps to the Congress.

And so, I think that's a practical concern moving forward, even as these cases get resolved in the courts.

COLLINS: Elie, what about -- you know, I mentioned the bigger picture here in terms of the statement from the Joint Chiefs Chairman saying no plans, no orders to send troops to polling places or members of the National Guard. Between that and what we heard from the Department of Homeland Security Secretary Markwayne Mullin today. I mean, how are you looking at this 63 days away from the midterms?

HONIG: A marked contrast. Good to hear that the current plan is not to send military troops to polling places. If DHS actually does follow through, then that will be a fundamental change in the way DHS deals with polling places.

Now, look, it's traditional for DOJ to send lawyers, non-uniform people in suits to polling places to be there as a resource to consult with election officials, not to play some sort of chilling effect. But if you have uniformed DHS agents and officers going out to local polling stations, there's no question what type of message that's going to send.

And DHS traditionally, really before this administration, has tried to steer clear and give a wide breadth to certain sensitive areas, including hospitals, religious places, schools, and certainly balloting places. But it sounds like DHS has contrary plans, and I don't know that there's a heck of a lot that the locals can do to stop that if they're insistent on it.

[21:15:00]

COLLINS: Yes. I mean, David. I mean, as you heard that statement, we're even hearing from the Governor of Wyoming saying, I don't like what the DOJ is trying to do here when it comes to voter rolls and registration list, and what they have here. Did that surprise you to hear that from him?

BECKER: Not at all. I work with election officials all over the country, Republicans and Democrats, and there is a bipartisan consensus that the Constitution gives the power to run elections to the states. It's extraordinarily clear, Article I Section 4 of the Constitution, the Elections Clause. Courts have repeatedly upheld that.

And the states do a remarkably good job of running elections, both in red states and blue states. We're seeing, for instance, in the cases the DOJ has brought, 31 cases seeking to seize sensitive voter data from the states, those are against red states and blue states, and the DOJ has lost all of them that have been decided so far. They are zero and 23, including--

COLLINS: Yes, those Republican A.G.s have been fighting them on this quietly but--

BECKER: Exactly, but they -- but still the -- I mean, these are Trump- appointed judges. Eight Trump-appointed judges have ruled against the DOJ here.

I think there is concern amongst election officials, to Elie's point, about the apparent intent to create a perception of chaos and confusion about the voting process, maybe with the idea that this could dissuade voters from participating, maybe give a sense of danger or inconvenience, or what's the point?

And the reality is, the election officials in this country are doing a really good job right now. Think back to the primaries. We've heard about hardly any problems. Massachusetts is voting today. We're getting quick results delivered. We're seeing--

COLLINS: Yes, we've been doing the primary nights almost every Tuesday here.

BECKER: Exactly. And the turnout has been very high. Very few problems. That's because election officials, even with all this uncertainty, are doing the job they've always done. It has always withstood scrutiny.

And I think the important message for voters out there, as there are some who might be worried about what will happen in this election, the important thing for voters is they're going to vote in the same safe, convenient experience that they've become used to, regardless of all the noise they're hearing right now. And so, the election officials in this country are ready for what I expect will be the very high turnout we see this November.

COLLINS: OK.

David Becker, great to have you, as always. Thank you for joining us.

BECKER: Thank you.

COLLINS: Elie Honig as well.

Up next for us here on THE SOURCE. We're following this coming out of the Middle East tonight. There is fighting happening again between the United States and Iran. President Trump is claiming the biggest attack is just waiting in the wings. But what are the implications here at home, as the President's been meeting with oil executives behind closed doors today, and prices are going up.

[21:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: We're following breaking news this hour, as Iran says that it has launched new attacks, targeting U.S. forces, throughout the Middle East tonight, after the United States struck Iran earlier today.

Jordan's military says 13 Iranian missiles entered its airspace in an attack that Tehran says was targeting a U.S. base there. 10 of those were intercepted. The rest, we are told, fell in remote areas. And right now, gratefully, no casualties have been reported.

Kuwait says that their air defenses have also been intercepting Iranian drone attacks this evening.

And all of this is happening after CENTCOM and President Trump confirmed earlier today that yes, the U.S. was striking Iran again, they say, for trying to lay mines in the Strait of Hormuz, as the President warned Iran not to retaliate or they would, quote, "Be hit again at a much harder and higher level."

Now, oil prices were surging because of all of this today in the hours after the U.S. military confirmed those new strikes, and the global and U.S. oil benchmarks have both climbed sharply in just the last couple of hours.

This is all a political reality that the President is hoping to shake off as the midterms, as you just heard, are 63 days away. And he was meeting behind closed doors today with energy executives, from refiners and fuel retailers, at the White House. It was expected to focus primarily on efforts to lower gas and diesel costs. Notably, that meeting happened behind closed doors, away from cameras and reporters.

My political sources are here tonight.

And I think a big question, Shermichael, as we get into this, is what this means for the American people, for voters who are watching this war stop and restart constantly.

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, look, I mean, the reality is it does suggest that prices aren't going to fall as quickly as we expected. It's why the President's bringing those oil executives to the White House, I'm assuming, to figure out a way, Maria, to incentivize them to lower prices.

Now, we know they raised prices quite a bit during the pandemic, so much so that many on your side, and I actually agreed with some of the criticisms that, Wait a minute here, you're harming the American people. And they didn't bring those prices back down.

And so, I don't necessarily blame the President for bringing them in and saying, Hey, we got to figure this out to provide some reprieve to the American people. However, that does not resolve the overall conflict in Iran. What's the strategy? What's the end goal? And what is it going to take for us to get there? I think that's the big question that the President is currently wrestling with and trying to find a resolution to.

COLLINS: Yes.

How do you see these new strikes?

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think the American people look at these strikes and they say, How much money is this administration spending, right, on the munitions, and I can't even make ends meet.

And so, you talk about blame. I think the American people are blaming the President for this. He has not been able to articulate to the American people why they went into Iran. People in the administration can't even agree amongst themselves as to why. And importantly, what is the end goal? What is the strategy to get out? Nothing has been articulated in a way that makes sense to the American people.

[21:25:00]

Meanwhile, they can't make ends meet. They go to the gas station and they're paying these huge prices that continue to go up, and they're saying, This is a war that no one wanted and no one needed, after the President promised not to get us into any more forever wars during the campaign. They see it as a betrayal, and that's why it's going to be such a big issue, is a big issue, going into the midterm elections.

SINGLETON: I, you know, I was going to jump on that, Maria. This is the contrast, right, that Republicans are going to have to defend against for many races across the country, congressional races, Senate races, where Democrats are going to say, Look, maybe you have the DSA aspect of our party that's controversial, but a lot of the special elections are Democrats who are running on those kitchen table issues, and they're saying, Look, you elected Republicans and Donald Trump because you weren't satisfied with the results that we delivered under the previous administration.

CARDONA: Yes.

SINGLETON: However, they're making the argument, things have gotten worse.

And so for us, we have got to figure out a way, us being Republicans, to draw the contrast to say, Yes, things have gotten bad a little bit, but we're figuring out a way to improve upon them. And that's why I go back to the President figuring out the messaging, figuring out a way to get these gas prices lowered, and figuring out a way to resolve the conflict.

But I'll add quickly here, Kaitlan, that doesn't mean this is going to happen before midterms are over. This stuff typically takes a couple of months before it actually gets into the system for people to start seeing those prices drop. This is a bit of a conundrum for my party.

CARDONA: Yes.

SINGLETON: That's why we may lose the House.

CARDONA: Yes. I think--

COLLINS: Well, I mean, think if--

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: --if you're on the ballot in Georgia, Texas, Michigan--

SINGLETON: Yes.

COLLINS: --Maine, Alaska, these key states coming up. Look at how much gas prices have gone up there since the start of the war. In Alaska, it's $1.30. Michigan, $1.13. Georgia, $1.02. Texas, $1.04. I mean, this is what voters deal with every single day, every single week, as they're fueling up -- fueling up.

SINGLETON: Yes, look, traditionally, Maria, we -- I would -- I would have argued six months ago that prices were high during Biden administration. They lowered a little bit, but it's hard to make that case now. Then I would have pivoted and said, Well, let's tap into the strategic oil -- petroleum reserves, let that get into the system, drop prices a couple of cents for the American people. But we know that that's at an all-time low.

So, again, this is a challenging moment for my party, Kaitlan, as it pertains to keeping the House. But to ultimately keep the Senate--

COLLINS: So, if you're a Republican and you see the new strikes, how do you feel about that?

SINGLETON: Look, I think you call the White House and tell the President, We got to figure out something here to give the American people some type of reprieve, economically. I have no clue what that looks like, but that is a thorn in the side of every single Republican running right now.

CARDONA: But you know what's interesting is Republicans have not had the backbone, and they have continued to be way too cowardly to say exactly what you said, in public, to distance themselves from Trump, which I think if you are in a swing state that perhaps Kamala Harris won, or that Donald Trump won by five points or less because, those are all targeted districts by the DCCC because, the President's approval ratings are so horrendous, you still don't have Republicans coming out and saying, You know what? I need to distance myself from this President who has betrayed my voters, who does not have a strategy on how to get out of Iran.

And they're not doing anything to do exactly what you're saying they need to do--

SINGLETON: But I think -- but I think, Maria--

CARDONA: --to give a reprieve to the American people.

SINGLETON: But I think it depends where. Let's take Susan Collins out of Maine. I think it was a week ago, Vice President Vance was in Maine campaigning. Susan Collins wasn't there with him. And this isn't very common for the President. But it does appear that the White House is giving some people the ability to have distance from the administration and from some of the unattractive policies that would hurt them come November--

COLLINS: You know, one moment that stood--

SINGLETON: --and that's just one example.

COLLINS: Yes, I think Susan Collins said she had a scheduling conflict--

SINGLETON: She did. She did.

CARDONA: Yes. Exactly.

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: We all--

CARDONA: The famous scheduling conflict--

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: Political speak for--

CARDONA: --yes.

COLLINS: --I don't want to be there.

But I think there was a moment today that was so telling on Capitol Hill when Manu was asking House Speaker, Mike Johnson, about the timeline for this war and what American people -- the American people should expect.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: On Iran, you said repeatedly that this war was going to be over soon. You said that this would be a temporary blip on short term -- on gas prices.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Yes.

RAJU: It is say, more than six months. People are getting hurt still at the pump. Should the American people not also judge you on your projections here that were clearly off base?

JOHNSON: Manu, that is one of the stupidest questions you've ever asked.

RAJU: Why is that stupid?

JOHNSON: I have nothing to do with the prosecution of the war across the globe. I am--

RAJU: You -- you are responsible--

JOHNSON: You want me to answer? You want me to answer?

RAJU: You are -- you are selling this to the American public, are you not?

JOHNSON: So, should the House Speaker be held responsible for the duration of a military conflict around the globe? You answer that question.

RAJU: I mean, you--

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARDONA: I think the answer is yes. Because guess what, Speaker Johnson? You guys hold the purse. You guys have the power to actually give the money to prosecute this war.

[21:30:00]

And part of the issue in these midterms, Shermichael, is that the American people are looking at a Congress that is completely ineffective. They have genuflected at the altar of Donald Trump, given over all of their congressional power. The President and the White House can do anything they want, and Congress will just say, Yes, sir. Whatever you need.

The American people understand that there does need to be a division of the executive branch versus the legislative branch.

SINGLETON: Well, sure.

CARDONA: And Mike Johnson is acting as if he's completely innocent in this because he has no power.

Well, I don't think he has any power. He's given it all over to the White House, and he's even saying it publicly.

SINGLETON: Look, I don't think ceding power has started with this administration. I think, for a long time, the executive branch has been consuming more and more authorization on a number of fronts. That's neither here nor there.

Look, I think this is challenging for the House Speaker. He clearly wants to support the President and not get ahead of the President, while also maintaining his majority and what is apparently going to be some serious diminishing returns after November.

And so, I think if you're Mike Johnson, you're trying to figure out when I -- if we lose the majority, what is going to be the Republican agenda? How do we make sure that our candidates are in a strong position, come 2028, when President Trump is no longer in the White House? And you have to ask that question: Do we even still see the same turnout numbers?

So, there's a lot for the House Speaker to kind of deal with right now, Maria.

CARDONA: Yes.

SINGLETON: I'm going to give him a little grace on this.

COLLINS: Shermichael Singleton. Maria Cardona.

SINGLETON: A little grace.

COLLINS: Great to have both of you here tonight.

CARDONA: Thanks, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next for us here on THE SOURCE. The jury today was deadlocked in the Lindsay Clancy trial. The judge sent them back. We have new details though from what happened inside that courtroom. My legal sources are here right after this.

[21:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, they are deadlocked, but still deliberating. The jury in Lindsay Clancy's triple murder trial went home without reaching a verdict, hours after they told the judge they could not come to a unanimous decision.

The judge, however, urged the deadlocked jurors to keep trying.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE WILLIAM SULLIVAN, MASSACHUSETTS SUPERIOR COURT: I brought you back out because I know that this was a long trial. All right? I know there were over 80 witnesses, there were over 300 exhibits, and -- but because of that, I'm going to ask you to go back out, keeping in mind all of the instructions that I gave you, to go out and to continue your deliberations at this time. All right?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now these jurors obviously have a complicated task before them. They are weighing whether Lindsay Clancy, who you saw there, the now 36-year-old Massachusetts mother who admits to killing her children, they're weighing whether or not she is criminally responsible for their deaths.

Prosecutors allege that she intentionally murdered her kids when she strangled all three of them with exercise bands. But defense attorneys say that she suffered from postpartum psychosis that had spiraled out of control.

The jury has now been deliberating for 23 hours over four days. If they stay deadlocked, the judge may be forced to declare a mistrial.

My legal sources are here tonight.

Areva Martin is a civil rights attorney.

Renato Stabile is an attorney and jury consultant.

And Renato, we've talked to you a bunch, over the years, about different juries, what it's like, jury selection. What do you know about what it's like inside a jury deliberation when the jurors are deadlocked?

RENATO STABILE, JURY CONSULTANT, ATTORNEY: Usually what happens is the jurors will take a vote as soon as they walk into the deliberation room. So, it's very likely that the jurors knew, we didn't know, but the jurors knew how divided they were last week. We're just finding out now that they're deadlocked.

They went home tonight. They're probably going to get a Tuey-Rodriguez charge in the morning, which is called the dynamite charge, to try and get them to reach a unanimous verdict. But I see this as most likely being a hung jury at this point.

COLLINS: So, in your experience, Renato, after we heard the judge saying, Look, you've heard from 80 witnesses. It's been a very long trial. But after a judge says, Go back in there and try to reach a verdict. Do they normally? Is it different case by case? How does that work?

STABILE: It's hard to imagine what they were doing for another five hours, especially because they're not really asking for any evidence. I mean, they asked to see the knife, they asked to see the pill bottles. But you would think with this kind of expert testimony, they would want some readbacks of that expert psychological testimony, and they haven't asked for that.

So, it's really a head-scratcher. After 23 hours, you would think there's really not that much more to say. So, I think they're going to come back tomorrow. Maybe they'll deliberate throughout the day. They'll sleep on it. And this is going to be a hung jury either tomorrow afternoon or Thursday morning.

COLLINS: Areva, how are you watching how this is playing out?

AREVA MARTIN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Yes, like Renato said, I'm a little surprised that we haven't seen more questions being asked of the judge. In a case with this level of complexity, I would have expected there to be questions about the law. But we didn't see those kinds of questions.

We just saw the question about the pill bottle and the knife, and that does tell us that this jury is grappling with this issue of what her mental state, what Clancy's mental state was at the time that she killed her children. I think the pill bottle goes to what kind of medication was she taking? What impact did that medication have on her? And I think the knife, asking to see that knife, is looking at, was this a real serious attempt at suicide? What kind of knife was it, and how serious was this attempt?

[21:40:00]

So, I think that we are going to see a hung jury. After 23 hours of deliberation. The judge is going to give that instruction, which is essentially an Allen instruction. But he cannot coerce them to change their minds. He's going to tell them, Try to see the other person's position, but do not give up on your own convictions, how you feel about this case and the evidence that has been presented by both sides. Because each juror has to vote in a way that's true to their own convictions.

COLLINS: So, Areva, if they come out tomorrow and they are still deadlocked, then what?

MARTIN: I think the judge, after giving that instruction, they go back and they try again. But I think even after trying for five more hours, or even maybe longer throughout the day, we're not going to get a very different result.

Now, there are cases where jurors appear to be deadlocked, and they go back and they do come up with a unanimous verdict. I just don't think in this case, the way it's gone so far, these 23 hours, the questions that they've asked and the questions that they haven't asked, I think, is a pretty good indication that they are really divided over this question, and probably the question of criminal responsibility.

No question about did she do it. I'm not even certain there's a question about whether she suffered from some kind of postpartum psychosis. But what does that mean? Could she be psychotic and still plan the murder of her three kids? Or if she was psychotic or in a psychotic state, does that prevent her from being able to determine right from wrong and from being criminally responsible for the deaths of her children?

COLLINS: Yes, and Renato, you know, our Jean Casarez, who's been covering this case closely, said the jurors in the case have generally been responsive to the judge. She said, today, there was a stoic-ness to them.

And we heard from Lindsay Clancy's attorney, you just saw him sitting next to her on camera, Mr. Reddington. He talked to reporters outside, after the jury initially said they were deadlocked, and this is what he told reporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But if you have to retry this, do you think that your client is emotionally prepared to do it again?

KEVIN REDDINGTON, LINDSAY CLANCY'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't think she is?

REDDINGTON: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you do anything different in the second trial, if you have a second trial?

REDDINGTON: I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No?

REDDINGTON: I'll think about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: What did you make of that answer, Renato?

STABILE: Well, the thing is, he might be telegraphing that she might be willing to take some sort of a plea rather than retrial it if they were to offer her manslaughter.

The thing about retrials is they tend to favor the prosecution because the defense does enter a trial, the first time, with a little bit of an element of surprise. The prosecution doesn't exactly know how the defense is going to play out. So, I think on a retrial, the defense really has to be concerned that the prosecution will know everything that's going to happen, everything that their witnesses are going to say, and that's what he's telegraphing there.

COLLINS: Renato Stabile. And Areva Martin. Thank you both for joining us with your expertise tonight.

Obviously, we'll be following this closely to see what happens tomorrow.

MARTIN: Thank you.

COLLINS: And up next. We have new reporting tonight, coming out of Washington, on a leadership shakeup that's underway at the Pentagon. What the Army Secretary Dan Driscoll told the President right before he resigned about Pete Hegseth's leadership. My source tonight is one of the reporters who has the scoop.

[21:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, the President has announced that he is nominating the acting Navy Secretary, Hung Cao, to permanently lead the service. In a post on Truth Social, he said, We need patriots like him to make sure our Great Navy and Marine Corps remain the FIERCEST and BEST Force the World has ever seen... The Senate needs to confirm this Warfighter, ASAP.

Now, Cao is a retired Navy captain and former Republican Senate candidate in Virginia, and he served in that acting role ever since the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, abruptly fired the previous Secretary back in April.

This stands out, this announcement tonight because, it comes as we're also learning new details about the outgoing Army Secretary, that's Dan Driscoll, that you see here, who reportedly delivered complaints about Secretary Hegseth directly to President Trump before he handed in his resignation.

The Atlantic reports this, and says that during a White House meeting last week, the President was surprised when Driscoll told him how many generals and other top officers had been fired, pushed out, or passed over for promotion under Hegseth. And that Driscoll argued that the Army could not transform itself the way it needs to because of the departure of so many leaders.

CNN has previously reported that Hegseth has fired more than two dozen senior officers, pushed out that Navy Secretary that he clashed with, and also reportedly intervened in promotions across the military branches that are directly shaping leadership.

According to one source, Driscoll's exit did not come as a surprise, given the months of friction building between the two Pentagon leaders.

My source tonight is The Atlantic's Missy Ryan, who reported, alongside her colleagues, about Secretary Driscoll's meeting with Trump.

What else do we know about what the Army Secretary was telling the President before he resigned?

MISSY RYAN, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: So, Driscoll was at the White House, early last week, and he met with President Trump.

And certainly, it was no surprise to Trump and his close advisers that there was friction between Pete Hegseth and Dan Driscoll from the beginning. Even though they have kind of similar backgrounds. They both were infantry soldiers. They both are people who sort of rose up from humble backgrounds and went to Ivy League schools. They have totally different styles and temperaments.

[21:50:00]

Hegseth is a very showy former Fox News host. He likes to be an online scrapper, and he is a kind of a MAGA warrior. Dan Driscoll is much more low-key. And they brought those differing styles to the Pentagon.

Whereas Hegseth was trying to advance this culture war agenda, emphasizing fitness and railing against DEI, talking about warrior ethos. Driscoll was much more focused on the nuts and bolts of modernizing the Army. He really ducked those culture war issues. He steered clear of them.

And they just were -- they were not suited well as in terms of their dispositions, but also because Driscoll was seen as a rival by Hegseth. He had this close relationship with JD Vance, who was a law school friend of his, and Hegseth frankly has really had a problem with people he perceives as rivals from the beginning.

And so, while it wouldn't have been any surprise to Trump that they had friction. It was Driscoll coming and saying, Mr. President, I think that Hegseth's management is actually impeding the Army's ability to get stuff done, and that was his message as he was presenting his resignation last week.

COLLINS: I mean, that is so remarkable, though, in any administration. But for the Army Secretary to go and sit down with the President, the Commander-in-Chief, and say, Your Secretary of Defense is actively imperiling the leadership of the U.S. military. And as you report, the President seemed surprised by the ouster, or passing over a lot of these senior leaders.

RYAN: It is surprising in some ways, but -- because Hegseth, frankly, is well-liked by President Trump. Everything that we hear is that President Trump is pleased with his performance. He likes how Hegseth kind of picks these fights online, that he focuses on these culture issues, which I think play to their MAGA base.

So, it is a little bit risky for Driscoll to do that. But at the same time, he has a very powerful ally in JD Vance. What we expect him to do eventually is to go work for Vance's presidential campaign.

And Driscoll is also a little bit of an unorthodox. He's not a bureaucrat. He's not somebody who fits into the hierarchy. He came out of investment banking, and he was only going to do this for a couple of years. And here he is, making sure that everybody knows what his -- what his principles were, and that he was prepared to stand up for people in the Army rather than the kind of more showy agenda that Hegseth had.

COLLINS: But in terms of the leadership and who's doing what. I mean, what really stood out to me from your piece is just this alone, this sentiment. With more than almost half a million active-duty soldiers positioned around the globe, the Army now has fewer generals than at any point in recent history.

RYAN: Yes, and he -- Hegseth has forced out or blocked the promotion. You mentioned dozens earlier. I think it's now above 75, and more than half of those people have been people of color or women. So, you think about the impact on one of the organizations that've been one of America's most diverse organizations, the U.S. Army, that will have a generational impact.

And I think one of the most pernicious things we have to think about, when we're thinking about the impact that Hegseth will have had on the military over time, is the fact that there are going to be this generation of officers coming up who are going to think that the way to get ahead is not by competence, not by speaking truth to power, delivering hard truths, criticism to their superiors, their political leaders. It's by loyalty and doing things like we're seeing Hung Cao or Chris LaNeve--

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: Yes, what do we know about him who is going to be the new Navy Secretary, if he gets confirmed by the Senate?

RYAN: So, he has a military background. He ran unsuccessfully for U.S. Senate in Virginia. And he has the same kind of instincts as Hegseth as a MAGA warrior. He has -- he is -- that's why I think it's the perfect coda to the Driscoll episode.

Because, the day after the news breaks that Driscoll is leaving, Hung Cao gets nominated, and he has been the anti-Driscoll in terms of going on social media and amplifying Hegseth's bravado, for example, when he overturns Navy disciplinary measures related to flyovers, and it's the kind of thumbing his nose in the face of traditional military regulation, which is what the military system is predicated on, that is so dangerous.

COLLINS: Yes.

Missy Ryan, excellent reporting.

RYAN: Thank you.

COLLINS: And thank you for joining us to share it tonight.

RYAN: Thanks.

COLLINS: Really appreciate your time.

Up next it is time for Source Code. We give you a number at the center of a story in the news. Can you figure out what that story is? Tonight's Source Code is 50. I'll be right back with the answer.

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight's Source Code is 50, after MapQuest said that its app had roughly 50 times more usage compared to a week ago. Yes, MapQuest that we all used to use. They now say they are having a surge after the company refused to change Lake Ontario's name, after President Trump signed that executive order rebranding it as, quote, Lake America.

Now, Google Maps made the change for users in the United States this week. Apple Maps started rolling out the name change to its U.S.-based users earlier today.

And while it's not clear how long a MapQuest comeback is going to last, the app right now appears to be taking directions from users on how to stay on top. They wrote today: Promise we heard ya. Please let us cook.

[22:00:00]

If you missed any of the show, it is available on demand to our subscribers on the CNN app. You can also check it out on the podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. And you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter @kaitlancollins, where I'm always posting all the latest reporting throughout the day as it goes on.

Thank you so much for joining us here tonight on THE SOURCE.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.