Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump In SC After Waiving Sanctions Lindsey Graham Fought For; VP Vance Defends Ramaswamy Over Ad Backlash; Elon Musk Warns He'll "Come For" Lawmakers Who Investigate Him. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 21, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --you can stream this show live or watch any CNN program on demand anytime on any screen or mobile device. All you need is an All Access subscription. Scan the QR code on your screen or go to CNN.com/Watch to learn more. I'll see you there.
That's it. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight. What the President told me about why he waived those Russia sanctions as he's now rallying in the state of the late Senator who fought so hard for them.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
As we come on the air tonight, with just 13 days to go until the midterm elections, President Trump is back out on the campaign trail, this evening in South Carolina. He's there to try to help Senator Darline Graham hold on to her seat, the one that he pushed for her to be appointed to after the sudden death of her brother, Senator Lindsey Graham.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: After Darline's brother, oh, I loved her brother. That guy was a great guy. He was a seriously good politician, by the way, in case anyone's wondering, he was good. When I had little difficulties, whether it was on the right or on the left, I could go to Lindsey and say, 'Lindsey, I need a little help, Lindsey.' He could always get it done. I don't know. He passed away unexpectedly. We love Lindsey Graham.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The President's joint appearance with Darline Graham tonight comes, after the President had backed off a key part of Lindsey Graham's legacy, those Russia sanctions that he recently signed into law.
And as he headed for South Carolina tonight, I asked President Trump about waiving those sanctions, which he signed into law only a month ago, in that law, that is named after the late Senator Graham. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: You're going to South Carolina tonight, and you're campaigning for Darline Graham.
TRUMP: Yes.
COLLINS: What has she said to you about lifting those sanctions on Russia that her brother fought so hard for?
TRUMP: Well, I'll tell you the interesting thing, as you know, we have a gentleman coming home from Russia that they've been after for years. He was captured or taken during the Biden administration. Wouldn't have happened if I were president. But he was taken. And he's a highly respected man, Mr. Hubbard, Stephen Hubbard.
And we were in the midst of negotiating, and a lot of stupid people said, and people that don't know how life works, they said, Why aren't you putting Russia sanctions or all this. In the midst of a negotiation to try and get a long-term hostage back from Russia.
COLLINS: But you said you didn't give Russia anything in exchange for his release.
TRUMP: If I would have done that, you would not have Mr. Hubbard coming back right now -- right now--
COLLINS: So, you did give him something in exchange for the release?
TRUMP: And you don't know anything. I mean, you're fake news, CNN.
Look, right now, you have a man that's beautifully flying from Russia to wherever he's landing in the United States, that I got out because I had a very good and very fast negotiation with President Putin. If you were to put those sanctions on, or whatever you want to call them, you could forget about him. You'd never see him again. He'd be back in jail for 25 years.
The other thing, very important, we're negotiating with Russia right now on Ukraine. We are maybe close to a deal, for the first time in a long time, we're maybe close to a deal. When you're close to a deal and you have very delicate negotiations, you don't put sanctions on.
And the other thing, we have decimated Iran. Russia has had very little input into Iran. They have -- certainly, they could have done a lot more, but I'm not sure they did almost anything. That's something that you have to take into consideration, also.
So, we've beaten Iran. We continue to beat Iran. And Russia and China, frankly, have not been certainly much of a player, and we appreciate that.
So, the people that say that, Oh, let's put sanctions on. You know, I have the right to do them at any day. If -- if they behave badly -- if they--
COLLINS: Well you're saying you lifted the sanctions in exchange for his release. Right, Mr. President?
TRUMP: You don't know what you're talking about. You're a dummy.
COLLINS: But that's what you're saying. That's what you're saying.
TRUMP: You're a low-IQ person. You're a dummy, and you work for CNN.
Let me tell you, if I'm negotiating to get a man back, a man that we've wanted back for years, a man that was a prisoner in Siberia or someplace in Russia, and we're getting him back because of me. Should have been brought -- it should have never happened. But it should have been brought back during Biden because he was there during the Biden. It was -- he was captured or taken during Biden.
When you're negotiating that, and you're dropping, and I know that I'm doing it, and because a lot of people didn't know, and they say, Oh, let's put sanctions on Russia. The negotiation would obviously come immediately to an end.
So, use your head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Moments after that exchange, my colleague, Karen Travers of ABC News, followed up.
[21:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN TRAVERS, ABC NEWS: How is waiving those sanctions on Russia to secure the release of Hubbard not giving something to Russia in exchange?
TRUMP: Are you a stupid person? Who do you work for?
TRAVERS: ABC News.
TRUMP: You're a stupid person. And by the way, your network is the worst of all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, the reality is, even the candidate that the President is campaigning for tonight has disagreed with his decision to lift those Russia sanctions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DARLINE GRAHAM (R-SC): Personally, I would choose to keep the pressure on Russia to end the war and get the gas prices down because, I don't trust Putin and I don't trust Russia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It was the President who just three months ago encouraged Darline Graham to run, in order, as he put it, to honor the legacy of her beloved brother, Lindsey.
And if the Senate election in South Carolina is about honoring his legacy, we should note, the Senator who held that seat for decades was very clear about what he thought of world leaders who make deals to buy Russian oil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDSEY GRAHAM, ATTORNEY AND FORMER UNITED STATES SENATOR: You don't want to reward Putin for this invasion; you'll just get more of it.
I understand wanting to buy cheap Russian oil. But I don't understand a country that buys cheap Russian oil, knowing it's going to be used to kill innocent people and acquire land from others by force of arms.
Don't fuel the flames of a bloodbath. Don't buy cheap oil from a despot because you -- you can with impunity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my source on this tonight is the Democratic Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado, who is a military veteran who serves on the House Intelligence and Armed Services Committee.
And thank you, Congressman, for being here tonight.
Because, I do think it's important to say, there's no one who is not happy that Stephen Hubbard, an American, is free and on his way home after being kidnapped from his home in Russia -- his home in Ukraine, taken to Russia, held prisoner there for the last several years. Of course, his family is also grateful that Steve Witkoff secured his release.
But when you hear the President say that he gave nothing to Russia in exchange for his release. Do you think that's true?
REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Of course, it's not true, Kaitlan.
I mean, I am with you. It's great that Mr. Hubbard is coming back.
And by the way, President Biden got the release of dozens of folks around the world during his presidency, and didn't give away everything in the process.
The problem here is the message that Donald Trump just sent, is that all you have to do is capture one U.S. citizen and we'll give anything that you want. This president will give you -- give you it all.
And what's even worse in this instance is that the President of the United States is now actively supporting a brutal dictator, a war criminal, and an adversary of the United States that's actively trying to target U.S. troops and kill U.S. troops and help other countries, Iran and others, also kill U.S. troops, and just lifted sanctions to give them billions of dollars to support those efforts.
COLLINS: Well, and I should note, President Biden did agree to prisoner exchanges for people who are convicted arms dealers that he agreed to have released in exchange for getting Americans released. He was criticized for that.
But I mentioned Steve Witkoff. That is the President's Special Envoy who was there in Russia, negotiating the release and has been involved in these talks, alongside Jared Kushner.
I want you to listen to what he said about President Putin today, which is quite remarkable, and what the President said when he was asked if he agreed with Steve Witkoff.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE WITKOFF, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY: You talk so much about my president, President Trump, being a humanitarian. You are a humanitarian, also, sir, and I salute that. I commend you.
REPORTER: Would you describe him in that same way?
TRUMP: You mean Steve Witkoff said he was a humanitarian?
REPORTER: Yes.
TRUMP: Well, I guess you could say for that particular purpose, for the purpose of allowing a man who was thinking he was going to be in prison for life, out. But you know, I wouldn't say anything one way or the other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Do you think Putin is a humanitarian?
CROW: Well, absolutely not. I mean, this is one of the most brutal dictators of our time and of history. You know, he's kidnapped 30,000 Ukrainian children. He launched this invasion of Ukraine and has killed hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, committed any number of war crimes, and for decades has actually been trying to target and kill American citizens and U.S. service members. So, that's where we're at.
[21:10:00]
And in the last week, this is what Donald Trump has done: they have apparently restricted Starlink and Starshield for Ukraine, allowing Vladimir Putin to launch missiles and to lower the defenses of Ukraine against Ukrainian civilians, resulting in the death of Ukrainian children. They have eased sanctions and lifted many sanctions. And now, Steve Witkoff sat across from Vladimir Putin and called him a humanitarian. That's just the last week. The damage that Donald Trump and his administration are doing to the U.S. standing in the world and our national security is incalculable.
COLLINS: I thought the comments that we heard from Brian Kilmeade of Fox News on that comment specifically, calling Putin, who of course has killed hundreds of people. They followed comments like these from Republicans, saying it was a Ridiculous statement, Appeasement won't end the war. Thom Tillis just said WTF.
This is what Brian Kilmeade of Fox News had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS HOST: What an embarrassing statement that is. I mean, the Russians must be laughing their heads off, going, Are you kidding? I cannot believe this is happening.
That just makes you look naive. A humanitarian? This guy kills his opponents. He arrests -- he arrests journalists. Tries to poison people wherever they are around the world. He's bombing innocent people on a daily basis, where the Ukrainians can honestly say they don't aim for a single civilian.
Ladies and gentlemen, anyone listening, if you see Vladimir Putin, do not call him a humanitarian. No one will take you seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, between that comment, which--
CROW: Right.
COLLINS: --I mean, I think is -- is a pretty tough comment from Brian Kilmeade about something that Trump's top envoy said.
The President's argument to me, as we were having that back and forth earlier, was, You don't put sanctions on Russia if you're close to making an agreement with them. If you put the sanctions on, they're not going to release the Americans. They're not going to make an agreement.
Do you think that there is any validity to that argument, Congressman?
CROW: No. I mean, where I come from, when you're trying to make a deal, you don't give the person you're bargaining with most of what they're looking for before the deal is done. I mean, that's what's happening here, you know.
And it's very clear, whenever Donald Trump is backed into a corner and realizes that he looks like a fool, and someone's pointing out that they're acting foolish, then he literally acts like a bully on a middle school playground and says, Oh well, you're dumb, you don't know any better. I mean, this is crazy. I haven't seen somebody say something like that since middle school, and yet as the President of the United States. So clearly, he's not making a deal.
I, for one, want to retake control of Congress, conduct investigations not only of Pete Hegseth, but what's happening with Starshield and Starlink, and actually figure out what really is happening with Russia here.
It is beyond perplexing why Donald Trump and the people closest to him continue to cozy up to one of the worst dictators in history, somebody who is actively targeting U.S. service members, actively supporting Iran and other enemies of the United States, and at the same time maligning our closest partners and closest allies.
There is something really wrong here, and it's jeopardizing the safety and security of our service members, and we're going to be relentless, digging into this, and getting to the truth.
COLLINS: Congressman Jason Crow, thank you for joining us tonight.
CROW: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. The Vice President's response when he was back home in Ohio defending that ad by Vivek Ramaswamy, that a lot of Republicans are calling, disgusting. Vance said, Stop whining.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Vice President, JD Vance, went home to Ohio today, with a plan to defend his law school classmate, the Republican candidate who is running for governor, Vivek Ramaswamy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Now, the media and the Democrats in the State of Ohio are obsessed because guess what? Vivek Ramaswamy had the audacity to run a TV commercial which calls it out like it is and calls Amy Acton a liar.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I should note, that came during the scripted part of the Vice President's speech, and it happened after Vivek Ramaswamy himself doubled down on that campaign ad that features the estranged mother of his Democratic opponent, Amy Acton.
In the ad, which you probably have seen by now, Donna Arthur, who is Acton's birth mother, calls her a liar and insinuates that she has mental health issues. What the ad doesn't say is that the two of them haven't seen or spoken to each other in decades. That would be ever since Acton's stepfather was indicted for sexually abusing her when she was 12-years-old. Acton's brother says their mother chose to stay with their stepfather for the rest of his life.
Now, that is the context around the ad that you just heard the Vice President describe as, quote, a TV commercial which calls it out like it is and calls Amy Acton a liar.
Now, Amy Acton responded to her opponent, embracing the ad, this way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMY ACTON, (D) NOMINEE FOR OHIO GOVERNOR: You know, I'd hoped he wouldn't sink this low, but of course he did.
We had known that, as I shared before, my mother has not been seen by me since I was 12-years-old.
I had a childhood of extreme physical abuse and sexual abuse as a kid. My brother and I, were frequent flyers in children's services, finally removed, after a grand jury saw evidence that was so -- so shocking that we were removed from my mother's custody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:20:00]
COLLINS: Now, her response there brings me back to the Vice President, who wrote an entire book about his own family struggles as he grew up poor in Ohio.
JD Vance did register his disgust today, but not with the ad itself, but at the members of his own party who won't get on board.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: But I have to admit that I'm a little bit disgusted when I see Republicans, across the country, who are whining more about that advertisement than they are about what the congressional Democrats and other Democrats want to do to the United States of America.
Politics is a tough business, and my message to my fellow elected Republicans is: if you actually believe in the things you say you believe in, stop whining about an advertisement and go win the race in 13 days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Stop whining about an advertisement, the Vice President says to people in his own party who are voicing their disgust about the ad.
For Republican Senator Jon Husted of Ohio, who is running to hold on to his seat in this election, he told the Associated Press, quote, "I would not have run that ad."
Ryan Smith, who is the former Republican Speaker of the House in Ohio, posted, What happened to human decency? Stop normalizing bad behavior and embarrassing the party. Ohio deserves better than this.
But of course, the reactions that matter most come from the Ohio voters themselves, who said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARI FREUDENBERGER, OHIO VOTER: I don't care if Ramaswamy's policies are the best. That shows just a judgment of character that I don't want to see anymore in politics.
SHERI VORHERR, OHIO VOTER: I would never say that about one of my children. And to do -- to go to that point to do that, she must feel very strongly about something.
I don't think it reflects well on Amy Acton, but I also don't think it reflects well on her mother.
CHERISE WILSON, OHIO VOTER: I feel bad for Amy in the sense that she was truly a victim, and that's not right.
But I also don't want somebody running in the city or state of Ohio who's a victim and who's in victim mode because that makes the leadership seem like victim, and that's not good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's what voters were saying in Ohio.
In Washington, as he was leaving the White House today, the President was also asked about that ad and offered this take.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The fact is, I know nothing about it, but I heard the mother went very rogue on the daughter, doesn't have a lot of respect for the daughter, and I think the mother is a witness to things also. So, who knows? And you have to figure that out. It's a very unusual situation, to have a mother hate a daughter that much, but I don't think that has anything to do with Vivek.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, it does have a lot to do with Vivek Ramaswamy because his campaign is spending $4 million to run that ad as much as it can over the next 13 days.
My political sources are here tonight, including:
Democratic strategist, Ameshia Cross.
Former Republican Governor of New Hampshire, Chris Sununu, whose brother John is running for the Senate in that state, I should note.
And also, former Trump campaign adviser, David Urban.
David, do you agree with the Vice President, that Republicans should stop whining about that ad?
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Yes, listen, I think it's the rule of holes. When you're in a hole, stop digging. I think they should apologize for running the ad. If I was Vivek Ramaswamy, I'd came out and said it was a mistake, shown some decency.
As you pointed out, the Vice President was a victim of abuse in his own childhood. He was -- you know, went and lived with his Meemaw. Show some empathy, right? It's this is -- I said this earlier, this makes the 1988 Willie Horton ad look kind of quaint and like a Hallmark movie almost, right? This is -- this has gone beyond and above and crossed a line that would -- probably shouldn't cross.
This woman -- look, I'm not an advocate for Amy Acton. I probably I'd vote against her if I lived in the State of Ohio. But what this ad did is made her very empathetic. She's got a backstory now. She's just not some like terrible Democrat that's going to ruin the State of Ohio. She's the woman that overcame a massive amount of abuse in her own life. Went to medical school. Has a successful career. The woman said she's playing the victim card. She didn't play the victim card. She didn't even mention it.
So, we've managed to personalize this woman, right, and a candidate and make her so much more than she would have been if you know, they would -- they didn't mention it. It just backfired. It was a terrible decision to begin with, shameful, and it had the exact opposite effect.
COLLINS: I mean, $4 million is going behind that ad.
CHRIS SUNUNU, (R) FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE, PRESIDENT & CEO, AIRLINES FOR AMERICA: Yes, look, it's -- content aside, you can debate that. It's just strategically stupid.
In the last two weeks of a campaign, you want to end with strength. This is a weak ad. This, as you said, this is an ad where you're trying to stir something up. You want to finish strong. You want to finish with character. You want to embolden people, get people excited about something. That's how you close out campaigns. This does just the op -- I mean, whoever recommended he do the ad in the first place is just -- should be fired. It's just an awful ad.
[21:25:00]
And yes, he's going to double down on it and say he's going to keep spending $4 million. But believe me, if he could go back four days and see the outcome, there's no way he would be running that ad.
COLLINS: Also, the doubling down feels like something that they -- a lot of Republicans do in the style of Trump, but it often doesn't work for people who are not named Donald Trump.
SUNUNU: No, no, look, you got to be an individual. You got to be what you're about. Candidate quality in the last couple weeks is what -- is what drives this. And as David said, it shows a weakness. It shows a -- it opens up a character question on Vivek. It opens up some empathy for his opponent. And it's just strategically dumb.
And so, you can't run your race like Donald Trump. Donald Trump runs his race his way. You have to run your race your way. You have to be what you're about. Be independent. And right now, it just -- it was a mistake.
COLLINS: I mean, and also the argument that Vivek Ramaswamy and the Vice President was making today was that Amy Acton would be a bad governor; that her policies are bad. But if that's the case, why not run ads about her policies?
AMESHIA CROSS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, FORMER OBAMA CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Because he wanted that shock factor. I think that he saw this as a kill zone, a strike zone, and unfortunately, or you know, unfortunately for him, that was very -- that was very misconceived notion.
But as somebody who is a court-appointed special advocate, I work with foster care children in those cases. In the majority of situations that young children are removed from the home, particularly when it's the mother, it is because of child sex abuse.
And I think that when you see something like this, and this has happened to this, you know, a child who was at 8-years-old up until she was 12, there is a lot of heart that goes towards recognizing what that means for a young person, but also, and to a point made earlier, just her fortitude for being able to continue throughout life and be as successful as she is. Because, that is really demonstratively horrible. And to have her mother be a part of that campaign ad and say the things she did when her children were found by the state to be in danger says something.
Vivek Ramaswamy is lower than dirt to have run that ad, to have thought that that was OK, and to defend it. And JD Vance is no better.
COLLINS: Well, and I saw some allies of Ramaswamy today saying, Well, other people have invoked family members before during races. This isn't unusual. It's politics.
But I mean, to your point, it's a different level when it's someone who's alleging child sex abuse.
URBAN: Yes, this isn't Billy Carter. This isn't -- you know, there's -- there's been family scandals before. This is -- this is a young child who's abused, right? And clearly, her mother, if you watch the ad, when you see the ad, you know there's something off in the ad a little bit to begin with.
And look, especially on the heel of the Epstein files, right? We've gone through this huge thing, this reckoning in America about child sex abuse, and you have NCMEC. There's so many organizations that are doing good things in America to help rein this stuff in.
And in here, you have a campaign that's like touting -- it's not -- it's not -- I mean, it's using it as a -- as a foil. It shouldn't be -- shouldn't be -- it shouldn't be used in that case. This is, again, Republicans just missing the mark on this one. And if you're Jon Husted, like he said, Jon Husted's like, Never heard of Vivek Ramaswamy, who's that?
COLLINS: Yes.
URBAN: Right?
COLLINS: Were you surprised that the Vice President defended it the way he did today? He didn't have to do that.
SUNUNU: He didn't have to do it. I think that's what surprised me. He could have just stayed quiet, moved on, had his talking points, done his campaign stop. To dive in on something, again, on an issue like this, when you're talking about potential child and sex abuse, and it's a line that a lot of people just -- you just -- it's a third rail. You just don't want to touch it if you don't know the facts, you don't know the background. It's not a good look.
I guess the question is, is this the death knell, right? You think this is--
CROSS: I think it is.
SUNUNU: Is this the--
CROSS: The Republican Party has tried to stand on business when it comes to child sex abuse for quite some time, and has made inroads in that.
Even though some of the people involved have also been kind of questionable in their own backgrounds, this is something entirely different because, they're not only revictimizing somebody who has lived through that trauma, but also, in light of it, trying to act as though she was to blame, or that it didn't happen at all. I think that's one of the worst things you could possibly do to somebody who's been a victim of sexual abuse.
URBAN: Yes, and we're not talking about how bad her policies are, right?
SUNUNU: Right.
CROSS: Well--
URBAN: We're not having a debate about why she shouldn't be governor.
COLLINS: Yes.
URBAN: There's a lot of reasons why she shouldn't be governor. Now we're not talking about them.
COLLINS: Everyone, stick around. We have a lot more to talk about tonight. Because, there were two big debates in two battlegrounds tonight. Things got interesting pretty quickly. We're going to take you and show you the highlights right after a quick break.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABDUL EL-SAYED, (D) MICHIGAN SENATE NOMINEE: I'm sure somebody at home has won MAGA bingo right now because it's all the buzzwords. Because he does not want to actually talk about substance, does not want to own his own record.
MIKE ROGERS, (R) MICHIGAN SENATE NOMINEE: He wants to make this about Donald Trump. I mean, the bingo game ought to be how many times can he put the word Trump in any answer--
EL-SAYED: You're inviting him here.
ROGERS: --any answer that he has given in the last, whatever, 30 minutes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Just some of the fiery exchanges between the Democratic Senate nominee Abdul El-Sayed, and the Republican Senate nominee Mike Rogers, engulfed in their final debate before Election Day, as Michigan's crucial Senate seat is on the line in that race.
It was one question on the Iran war, though, that maybe became the night's most defining moment. Days after we saw Abdul El-Sayed denounce the Muslim Brotherhood with a voter exchange and later with reporters, Mike Rogers sought, again, to tie him to the Islamist movement, prompting El-Sayed to fire back with this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EL-SAYED: I want you to pay attention, on Sunday, when Donald Trump comes here, at the invitation of Mike Rogers, to remind you that, in fact, Donald Trump is on the ballot through Mike Rogers. They are hip to hip on this war, and you are paying the cost.
ROGERS: So being bought off by the Muslim Brotherhood, having donors to his campaign from Hamas that support Hezbollah, is not a problem?
[21:35:00]
If you are going to go to the United States Senate, we need to know: Are you for America, or are you for these terrorist groups overseas? You can grin and you can smile and you can talk real pretty, but I'm going to tell you what, that is a risk to our national security.
Matter of fact, The New York Times gave him an option to condemn his comments supporting the -- Morsi--
ALICIA SMITH, 7 NEWS DETROIT ANCHOR: Time. Thank you, Congressman Rogers. We're going to have to leave it there, so we can get other--
ROGERS: --and he said, No comments.
SMITH: Thank you--
EL-SAYED: Let's talk about this.
ROGERS: Yes.
EL-SAYED: He keeps raising this question about this association with an organization I've never been a part of because, my Mom who is a nurse in Missouri? It doesn't make any sense. And it's actually really quite beneath you, Mike. It's really quite beneath you.
ROGERS: It's not--
(CROSSTALK)
EL-SAYED: To call into question my loyalty to the Constitution -- I'm talking. ROGERS: Own up to it.
EL-SAYED: I'm talking.
ROGERS: All right. Own up to it.
EL-SAYED: I'm talking.
ROGERS: Well, own up to it.
CAROLYN CLIFFORD, 7 NEWS DETROIT ANCHOR: Excuse me. Yes. Go ahead.
EL-SAYED: Can I have a few more seconds?
CLIFFORD: Yes. Go ahead.
EL-SAYED: Thank you.
To bring into question my commitment to the Constitution is really beneath you. I am proud of America. I'm proud to be an American. I'm proud of our Constitution that guarantees all of us the right to pray as we choose to pray.
CLIFFORD: That is your time, Dr. El-Sayed.
EL-SAYED: And the question that you would ask that, I think, is actually really quite shameful, as somebody who's actually served under that Constitution. It is shame. Shameful.
CLIFFORD: Congressman Rogers--
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my political sources are back with me, as well as our Chief Data Analyst, Harry Enten.
And Ameshia, as you listen to that exchange. El-Sayed has said before he doesn't know what his mom was doing in the 1970s in Egypt. He said he was primarily raised in Michigan by his father and his stepmom. What did you make of how it was used at the debate tonight?
CROSS: Well, I think that the only thing that Mike Rogers has, and the thing that he thinks that he can latch on to the strongest is a -- him trying to create a connection between someone who is of the Muslim faith, is of the Islamic faith, to terrorist groups. Because, he knows that that rings in the ears of certain individuals. And I think that it's very frustrating. It's extremely unfortunate. And I think that El-Sayed does his best as he can in responding to that.
We are a nation that does not have one religion. We are a basis of multiple religions and multiple cultures. And he should be able to practice his and honor his faith in the way that he is doing it.
However, I think that trying to tie that to something that is terroristic is a real problem, and we continue to see Mike Rogers do this over and over and over again. There hasn't been a single debate, a single campaign ad, a single canvas effort or event that he has done, and the Republican Party as a whole, when it comes to El-Sayed, trying to tie him to something he is not a part of.
I think that it's shameful. I think that it goes against what our Constitution is based on, and I think that El-Sayed responds every time with the right answer.
COLLINS: What did you make of that moment?
SUNUNU: Look, I think there's enough to push back on El-Sayed.
You got to remember, this is a candidate that moderate Democrats were praying wouldn't win the primary because he was so, I'll call it, progressive, socialist, DSA, whatever you want to call it, just not in the norm, if you will, of where a lot of the independent-minded folks in Michigan are. He is an extremist. There's no doubt about that.
So, take all that Muslim Brotherhood stuff aside, whether it's valid or not valid. I just think--
CROSS: It's islamophobia.
SUNUNU: Well -- well, no, no--
URBAN: No. Matter of fact, that's not true.
SUNUNU: --that's not true. That's not--
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: Now, Ameshia, what the what -- this is the difference between religion. No one's saying he can't be Muslim or practice be -- the Islamic faith.
SUNUNU: Right.
URBAN: There's a question about whether his family member was a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood, a terrorist organization. That's a yes or no answer, which he's never answered. He's--
CROSS: That isn't--
URBAN: No, no, no, hold on, let me finish.
CROSS: This is somebody who wasn't even raised by him mom.
URBAN: Ameshia, let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. OK? You had your time.
His mother -- all he has to say is, I disavow it. Of course, it's a terrible organization. They're terrorists. I would have nothing to do with it. He has never done that, not once.
So, this isn't about Islamophobia. This is about terrorists who want to do harm to the West. And if Abdul El-Sayed can't condemn that, if he thinks that Iran is a bigger threat to America than Israel, then that's a guy who shouldn't be in the United States Senate. And if he can't say that? If he can't say it? He's been given time and time again the option to do so. He's failed to do it. He shouldn't be elected, flat-out.
CROSS: He has said multiple times that he does not support the Islamic -- that he does not support terrorist regimes.
URBAN: But he's not denounced the Muslim Brotherhood.
CROSS: He's called them out.
URBAN: He's not denounced the emails. There's email--
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: If this specific organization that comes--
URBAN: So, it's nothing to do with his faith.
SUNUNU: Yes.
URBAN: Nothing.
SUNUNU: Yes.
COLLINS: Well, he did denounce the Muslim Brotherhood over the weekend in that exchange. But his point was, Why am I being asked about this?
URBAN: Because there's emails from his family--
SUNUNU: Yes.
URBAN: --that say, our mom is a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood.
SUNUNU: Yes, it's not--
URBAN: It's not complicated.
SUNUNU: Not baseless--
CROSS: This is a guy who was not raised by his mother.
URBAN: It doesn't matter if his family--
CROSS: I'm sorry, like I am -- I am confused to how this has to do with him--
URBAN: It's his family. It is. It's his family. It is family.
CROSS: --when he -- when he was not raised by his mom at all.
URBAN: If it's your family, and you're -- and they're saying we're support -- why didn't he just come out and say, I disavow that I have nothing to do with that. He's never done it, until like this past weekend, right? Why did he have Hasan Piker, a man who said America deserved 9/11? That's who he campaigned with. Ameshia, this is a -- this is an attack. This guy chooses who he campaigns with. If you're choosing to campaign with somebody who hates America, who literally says, I hate America?
SUNUNU: Yes--
CROSS: Do you really want me to quote all the people who Trump campaigned with--
URBAN: No. I'm talking about this -- I'm talking about this one instance.
CROSS: --extremely problematic?
SUNUNU: Yes.
URBAN: In this case, Hasan Piker, a terrible human.
CROSS: I'm not standing up with Hasan Piker. I think that Hasan Piker is a--
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: Well will you -- will you stand up--
CROSS: And I also think that all of the people who--
URBAN: By reference, by reference, you're standing up for him.
CROSS: --all of the people who the president -- the current President of the United States campaigned with--
URBAN: Ameshia--
CROSS: --and allowed to endorse him were also extremely horrible people--
[21:40:00]
URBAN: Ameshia -- Ameshia, we're talking about--
(CROSSTALK)
CROSS: --came from the United States. But you didn't call that out.
URBAN: --we're talking about Abdul El-Sayed, who's chosen who his Democratic opponent, who he beat, Haley Stevens, she's not campaigning with him. She refuses to campaign with him. This guy's not going to win. He's going down. His ship is sinking fast.
COLLINS: You think he's not going to win?
URBAN: No, not even close.
COLLINS: Well, Harry Enten is also here.
Hi, Harry.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: Hi. Yes, it's very--
URBAN: Sorry, Harry.
ENTEN: It's very tough to match the energy in that room, but I sure as heck will try. Although energy is not--
COLLINS: That's what we always say.
ENTEN: It's not too tough for me.
COLLINS: Yes, we agree with that. I don't think anyone on the panel would dispute that.
But Harry, you mentioned -- you heard David's assessment of this race, and one thing that Abdul El-Sayed kept doing tonight and brought up there was President Trump, tying Mike Rogers to him. It comes as the new CNN poll shows Trump's approval rating is at a record low, 32 percent. You're the pollster that Trump quotes all the time. What are we seeing in these numbers?
ENTEN: I become part of his road show at the end of every rally, it seems like. Look, I'll take any of the press I can get.
But at the end of the day, if I were Abdul El-Sayed, of course, I would be bringing up Trump every single moment I possibly can.
You brought up that CNN poll, right? This of me is part of a larger picture, historically speaking, where you go back in time, you look at any of the presidents who are anywhere close to how unpopular Donald Trump is, at this point, going into a midterm election.
The only two I could find who had a sub-minus-15 point net approval rating besides Trump are Harry S. Truman in the 1946? How about George W. Bush going into the 2006 election? You know what happened in both those elections? Their parties lost not just the House but the Senate as well. And of course, that's what we're talking about right here.
And you mentioned that CNN poll. To me, I'm always asking, Hey, is this poll an outlier. Does this look like the other data points that we have out there? And you know what? There are a lot of data points that look a whole heck of a lot like the CNN poll. You know, we're talking about sub-minus-30 net approval. That's approval minus disapproval.
It's not just the CNN poll, right? What are we talking about? We're talking about the ABC poll. We're talking about the Ipsos poll. We're talking about the Pew poll. It was 38 points underwater. That is the all-time worst for any president in any poll in the October pre- midterm. You have to go all the way back to FDR.
And while I may sound like an elderly man, I was certainly not alive back in 1938, Kaitlan. But here's the thing, right? Here's the thing. It's all about the midterm elections, right? Coming up. It's all about the House. It's all about the Senate.
You know that CNN poll that we had that came out today, right? There was a generic ballot question on there, right? You're going to vote for the Democrat or Republican for Congress. You know what's so important? Democrats now have a 10-point advantage on the generic ballot, according to our CNN poll. Pretty much very close to The New York Times' plus 11 points. Again, non-outlier. That is vastly different from what we saw two years ago in our final poll, when Republicans were up by two. That is a huge shift.
Now, whether or not we actually see that funnel down to a place like Michigan, I'm not sure.
COLLINS: Wait--
SUNUNU: Well those are two--
ENTEN: But it's going to be--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Harry--
URBAN: Yes, and I would say this. I would say this.
COLLINS: Harry, Governor Sununu wanted to weigh on this.
ENTEN: Governor, please--
URBAN: Really quickly, Harry.
ENTEN: Yes, sir.
URBAN: On that CNN poll and that question, Democrats were oversampled 49 percent to 39 percent. 10 percent difference on that poll. So, that, you know--
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: And look, if you want to -- if you want to compare--
COLLINS: --you said it's--
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: --compare polls, you compare the midterm of 2026 to the midterm of 2022. And let's set expectations. If the Democrats don't win fairly handily, that would be an odd thing for a midterm election, right? Midterm elections always see something to the other -- to the other side. It's just to what level.
And that's why it is concerning for Republicans when the President has to go to places like Kansas or Ohio or things that should be absolutely locked. South Carolina. That's the most disconcerting thing.
But if you're going to look at poll numbers, 1938 polls mean absolutely nothing. They--
(CROSSTALK)
ENTEN: Here to tell you--
SUNUNU: --different way.
COLLINS: Harry--
ENTEN: This is -- this is what I would say.
COLLINS: Harry, defend your -- defend your analysis.
(CROSSTALK)
ENTEN: I will defend my honor and the pollster honor here. I am just merely saying what we're seeing here is historically unprecedented. There is no president who has been anywhere close to this unpopular in a midterm election.
And look, the President quotes me. I don't bring pleasure in bringing bad news to either side. It's just the numbers are what they are.
And I will also note, Mr. Urban, what we're talking about here is party identification. That is, you identify as a Democrat or Republican, Independent, which way do you lean? That does, in fact, change over time. And our CNN poll is not the only one that says it. That doesn't guarantee the polls are going to be right.
COLLINS: OK.
ENTEN: Look, polls are tools, but these -- the numbers are the numbers on the numbers--
COLLINS: Polls. Polls. Polls.
ENTEN: --and they look ugly for Republicans nationally anyway.
COLLINS: One thing I do have to ask, though. I mean, speaking of that, your brother is running, and he ran an ad this week.
SUNUNU: Your brother is running, David?
COLLINS: Nope. Not David's brother.
URBAN: No, but I'm--
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: That was it--
ENTEN: Not my brother. That was not my brother. I don't have a brother.
URBAN: No, but I'm supporting his brother. So that's-- COLLINS: The only person whose brother is running at this table is yours, and he said, the way Chris Pappas, his opponent, tells it, I'm President Trump's long lost son. I've never even met the man. He said in a new ad this week.
SUNUNU: Yes.
He's never met him. So look, it's not about rebuking Trump. It's about saying, Look, I've never met the guy.
[21:45:00]
So, as all the candidates, Democrat candidates across the country are doing the Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump. They're trying to make it sticky, and those polls matter. Don't get me wrong. But I think what my -- just to talk about my brother, he's saying, look, he's New Hampshire first. He's a local guy first. I've never even met the guy. I didn't support the war in Iran. I don't support terrorists in Canada.
Those are things that Republicans, Independent, and Democrats across the board in New Hampshire agree to. So, he's just trying to show that that campaign tactic doesn't stick to him. And we'll see where it goes--
CROSS: Yes.
SUNUNU: By the way, John Sununu is waiting too. Just putting it out--
COLLINS: Also, I'm just saying, if someone says though--
SUNUNU: By six votes.
COLLINS: --I've never even met that person as Mariah Carey did, it's usually--
ENTEN: I don't know her.
COLLINS: --meant to shade.
SUNUNU: What do you mean?
COLLINS: Yes, exactly.
SUNUNU: Like, what do you mean?
COLLINS: Everyone, thank you all for being here and for bringing the energy, as Harry said, disputing the polls. We'll talk about all that. Don't worry. We'll be keeping up with it, coming up on the election.
Up next today. We heard from Elon Musk today, responding to that Wall Street Journal report about him throttling Starlink in Ukraine. At one point, he tweeted, Live by the sword, die by the sword. Sounds like Swisher -- as in Kara -- really wants to go to prison.
OK, well we're going to ask Kara about that right after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): We'd like to know exactly who is responsible for what happened. If it is one man, Elon Musk, who is dictating our foreign policy.
REP. GREG CASAR (D-TX): We absolutely should be looking into how Elon Musk, by trying to spend $300 million in the midterm elections, is trying to buy his way into billions of dollars more.
SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): And when we reconvene just after the election, that's two weeks from today, I expect action from my colleagues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: As you see there, more and more Democrats are vowing to investigate Elon Musk, should they win back control of Congress in just about two weeks from tonight. After that Wall Street Journal report that said that Musk personally ordered the slowdown of that critical military-grade version of Starlink that is relied on by Ukraine on the battlefield.
Now, the world's richest man is responding with his own threat. He posted today: Live by the sword, die by the sword. Those who pick fights with me should understand that I will find out who is really pulling the strings and come for them, not just their puppets.
His post was in response to Politico's report about the growing list of potential probes that Democrats might pursue.
But the man, who is also the Republicans' biggest midterm donor, also responded to something that the tech journalist Kara Swisher had said about him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARA SWISHER, PODCAST HOST, "ON" & "PIVOT," CNN CONTRIBUTOR, INTERNET AND TECHNOLOGY EXPERT: Under Kamala Harris, he might be in jail right now, right? He is correct. And that's not because of she's some avenging fury. It's because there's a lot of questions around different companies of his.
If Donald Trump loses the House and the Senate, I would worry. I'd be worried if I were him. You know, no matter how rich he is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: He wrote in response to that, quote, "Live by the sword, die by the sword. Sounds like Swisher really wants to go to prison."
And Kara Swisher is my source tonight.
And Kara, first off, what is your response to Elon Musk?
SWISHER: Yes. He's a 53-year-old man (inaudible) you know, he doesn't agree with someone. I was just saying what exactly what all those people you just had on said (inaudible) investigations, again, that he managed to put the kibosh on through DOGE and his (inaudible) President Trump, and that's over if the Democrats win the House and the Senate. That -- I was stating a fact. I'm not -- I'm not the clock. I'm just telling you the time, and that (inaudible) he loses that kind of influence that he clearly has over the President.
COLLINS: You were saying in that interview that Elon Musk is someone who might be in jail if Kamala Harris was President. What did you mean by that?
SWISHER: I was talking about all the investigations that were happening, and some of them, including around Tesla, carried criminal problems. They were looking at everything. (inaudible) the Trump administration and through DOGE, he cut off a lot of those investigations, and they just disappeared. I don't know where they were going to lead and (inaudible) this is just -- these are just these investigations and where they go.
And so, if there were problems with Tesla, for example, a lot of other car executives got in big trouble for problems with their cars and things like that. And it wasn't -- I wasn't saying I was going to put him in prison. But I do think he's going to -- those investigations are going to come back to haunt him in the way that he was trying to get rid of, and that's why he's spending this enormous amount of money.
And now with this Ukraine thing, they're going to investigate that because that's even more problematic that a -- that a citizen should have so much power, a citizen unaccountable, unelected official -- person should have so much influence over foreign policy in this way.
COLLINS: And I mean, last night, Brian Fitzpatrick, he's a Republican, and he was saying that an investigation is warranted, and that that would include--
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: --Elon Musk potentially about going under oath. He said it would include everybody.
SWISHER: Sure will.
COLLINS: You know, when you saw what Elon Musk was saying back to you today, what was your -- I mean, what went through your mind?
SWISHER: Oh, he does it all the time. I thought he's a toddler. It's ridiculous. I mean, he called -- he said my heart was filled with hate, once. He called me a name that I'm -- I guess I shouldn't repeat. Whatever. This is how he operates. Which again, let me just stress. He's a 53-year-old man, and this is how he talks. I just -- I don't even understand it.
I was just pointing out, if Democrats take over, he better, you know -- in fact, one of them said, Preserve your communications. And they were not just Democrats; they were also Republicans, people concerned about his influence over Ukraine.
And the fact that he's doing this is just -- what can I do? Kaitlan, you're subject to all manner of like insults, and you just sit there and say, OK, that's how you want to play? Go right ahead. I'm going to continue calling people and trying to understand it and ask the questions.
[21:55:00]
Is what's going to happen to Elon Musk in a situation where Trump isn't there to protect him, and that's -- that's a dicier situation for him than previously, which is, again, why he's spending hundreds of millions of dollars, whether it's in Texas, or with the Senate, or anything else. This is existential for him, and the money is hard -- it doesn't matter, he's so rich. He's a trillionaire again because the SpaceX just shot up again today.
So, I mean, I don't know how do you respond to this kind of stuff. It's just, I guess I should smile more. I don't know.
COLLINS: Kara Swisher, as always, great to have you. Thank you for joining us.
SWISHER: Thank you. All right.
COLLINS: Up next. It is time for Source Code. Tonight's Source Code is 14. I'll be right back with the story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight's Source Code is 14. Because, the Vatican shared some good news today about Pope Leo XIV. The press office says that Leo's lung cancer surgery last week was a success and that right now no further treatment is required.
[22:00:00]
The Pope's announcement, earlier this month, that he needed surgery for a nodule on his lung, came as a shock, both within and outside the Vatican.
After a short stay at the hospital in Rome, though, where doctors removed the lobe of his left lung, Leo was able to return home on Saturday. He made his first public appearance the very next day for Sunday prayers. And today, Leo held his first general audience in Saint Peter's Square.
We're all wishing him good health and a speedy recovery.
Thank you so much for joining us here tonight on THE SOURCE.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
