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Smerconish

Internal Divide Deepens Within Democratic Party Over Biden's Future; Was The Media Complicit In Hiding Biden's Struggles? Is Vocational School Now Faster Path To Economic Success? Aired 9-10a ET

Aired July 06, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ELI ROWLAND-CHANG, DIRECTOR, MUSCOGEE LANGUAGE PRESERVATION PROGRAM: Our elders, you know, they were forced into boarding schools where they weren't allowed to speak Muscogee and they were punished for speaking English. And then those that didn't get forced into a boarding school, even at their public schools, their teachers would punish them for speaking in their native languages.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Rowland-Chang has gotten the language curriculum into 30 public schools and launched Zoom classes that are open to everyone and a new website. Eli Rowland-Chang and the team at the Muscogee Language Preservation Program, I see you.

Thanks for joining me today. I'll see you back here next Saturday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern. Smerconish is up next.

[09:00:50]

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR: It's when not if. I'm Michael Smerconish in Philadelphia. That's my assessment after watching last night's interview on ABC with President Biden. As I tweeted in real time, "I credit George Stephanopoulos for civilly asking the right questions. People will see what they want.

But you really can't say this is reassuring." I'm not sure which was worse. President Biden unsure whether he watched the debate that caused this crisis or lacking the self-awareness to know the impact of that answer. President Biden's withdrawal from the race has an increasing feeling of inevitability. That's because his problem is unfixable.

What ails him eventually comes for us all. And when it does, the hands of time cannot be unwound. The reason this is resonating with so many is that we've all been there in our own lives with loved ones. And in the case of a president, the media glare will now chronicle every misstatement each misstep, including by those outlets that until now we're willing to look the other way. Unscripted moments will continue to make news.

It's all rather sad and unsustainable. And it didn't have to end this way. The President is the one who decided to seek a second term which would end with him being aged 86. But here we are. The campaign is in a doom loop. In a post-debate CNN survey, more than half of Democrats and Democratic leaning voters said the party has a better shot at the presidency with someone other than Biden. That viewpoint is now shared by members of Congress editorial boards, donors and opinion leaders. The Washington Post is reporting that Democratic "Senator Mark Warner is attempting to assemble other Democratic senators to ask the president to exit the race." As this cycle repeats itself, with more seeking his withdrawal, fewer unassociated with the president are forcefully pushing back. The increasing weight of opposition to his candidacy is overwhelmed the message of his campaign.

Just how bad is it? Well, for once, even Donald Trump realizes that he's best served, staying out of the limelight. And so now on this Saturday, July 6, 2024, the question seems to be when and not if. But this is not necessarily bad news for Democrats. Nine days ago, in real time, during the now infamous debate, I tweeted this, "Does Donald Trump lose by winning tonight?

Does this debate spur a switch to a stronger Democrat with a better chance of beating Trump?" In other words, I was saying be careful what you wish for Donald Trump, the crisis might produce a more formidable opponent. The question will soon be who and by what means becomes the Democratic nominee. President Biden cannot control his delegates, he cannot mandate that they support Vice President Kamala Harris. But as a practical matter, if he endorses her she will be the Democratic nominee.

But is that in her or the party's best interest? Ultimately, is that in the nation's best interest?

The poll question today at smerconish.com asks, which would make Kamala Harris a stronger Democratic presidential nominee acclamation or competition. I argue the latter. A Kamala Harris who fights for and earns the Democratic nomination will be sharper and stronger than one who wins by acclamation. She was not a strong candidate when she sought the nomination in 2020. Ironically, her one moment in the spotlight came when she challenged then Vice President Biden for a decade's old position on busing. That and her reversal of her willingness to abolish private health insurance, which she had signaled when raising her hand in agreement with Bernie Sanders.

She dropped out of the race before a single vote was cast, but was nevertheless put back in the VP mix because Biden had said that he would select a female running mate. If the nomination is handed to her, she will remain an untested political commodity. And the first time that she'll be held accountable for the vice presidential assignments she was given, namely tackling the root causes of the border crisis will be when confronted by Donald Trump. Instead let's see her onstage now.

[09:05:07]

Opposite Gavin Newsom and Josh Shapiro, Gretchen Whitmer, Amy Klobuchar, Secretary Pete, Andy Beshear, Raphael Warnock, Jared Polis. It's a deep bench. But none of them will step forward if it's handed to Harris. How then will Democrats know that they've mounted the strongest challenge to Donald Trump? Instead, let Harris sharpen her skills in town halls and debates, speeches to state delegations.

I don't know. But I strongly suspect that the cable outlets including this one would ensure that it all happens in primetime. The Chicago convention, it would be the most exciting political gathering of the modern era, the nation would be enthralled. And if you think it's all undoable, well just remember this, in the U.K., they just staged an entire election in six weeks. Democrats have more time than that to feel their strongest ticket. But it should come from a contest, not an anointing.

I want to know what you think. Go to smerconish.com. Answer today's poll question, which would make Kamala Harris a stronger Democratic presidential nominee, acclamation or competition? Of course, not everyone thinks that Biden should go. Stuart Stevens is a former Republican strategist and consultant. He worked on five presidential campaigns including George W. Bush and Mitt Romney.

He's now a senior adviser to the Lincoln project. He argues in the Atlantic that the push to oust Biden is ridiculous, pointing to Biden's record as president as saying far more about his fitness to serve than a 90-minute debate ever could. Meanwhile, Pulitzer Prize winning historian Anne Applebaum says it's time to roll the dice. In her piece in The Atlantic, she argues there's too much at stake for Democrats to stick with a fading candidate. Both join me now.

Stewart, good to have you back. You said in the "New York Times," it's easy to be for your guy on good nights. It doesn't mean much the test is on bad nights. If Joe Biden simply had a bad night, I'd be inclined to agree with you. What are you thinking now in light of the Stephanopoulos interview?

STUART STEVENS, WORKED ON 5 REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS: I basically, Michael, with all due respect, disagree with about everything you just said.

SMERCONISH: OK.

STEVENS: I think -- to be honest, I think that we have to look at some reality here. The last time that White House was held by a party without an incumbent was 1988. That's 36 years hasn't happened this century. That's probably for a reason. No president with these economic numbers has ever lost reelection since we've been keeping economic numbers.

The greatest weakness in any party is dissension for the nomination with an incumbent president. So, you get somebody like Pat Buchanan, who runs against George Bush in '92. What not -- he wasn't going to threaten him. But he cost him probably the election. What cost Jimmy Carter the election?

Probably take Kennedy running. When you look at what Allan Lichtman, called the keys to the presidency, being challenged in the party is one of the key determinants if you can win or not. I don't think that what has happened in that debate, if President Biden stays in, I don't think it's what people are going to be talking about the last week. This is a long campaign. He has a very weak opponent with a lot to talk about.

Now, look, I don't understand how that inner workings of the Democratic Party work. I mean, I know more about hip hop than I do about that. And I know more about eye hop and hip hop. But it seems to me that there is no reason based upon that not to continue to support what has been, I think fair to say the most successful first term president since World War II.

SMERCONISH: Anne Applebaum, your thoughts are what?

ANNE APPLEBAUM, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: So first of all, let me begin by agreeing that Biden has had a fantastic presidency. His list of accomplishments is long. I've just come from England where it's clear there that the United States is leapt ahead almost all other developed countries in speed of growth since the Coronavirus pandemic. I admire his foreign policy. He's been an excellent leader of the free world and I use those terms and, you know, within full meaning. I mean, he's defended -- he's organized the Defense of Ukraine in a really spectacular manner. He has a great administration.

However, an election is not about the past. It's about the future. It's about it's not a judgment on his first term. It's about what comes next. And in my Atlantic article I argued that a political party that was really cold blooded and that said what do we have to do to win.

[09:10:10

Would look at -- would look at the math, look at the states and say there are three states that we need to win. We need Michigan, we need Wisconsin, and we need Pennsylvania. So let's look at the three governors of those states. Let's let them compete. And by the way, I agree with you that you could make not only could you make the Democratic National Convention really interesting and fun, you would also ruin the Republican National Convention because they'd have no opponent to attack.

You could have the three of them run, you could, ha0ve Harris run as well. You could have a short competition. You could have, maybe President Obama and Hillary Clinton being the moderators.

You could you could do town halls, you would have an exciting competition, you would have, you know, people arguing and then you would have a winner. And then it would be possible, after you have voted the convention for people to unite behind the winner.

And remember that Democrats like competitions, remember they liked that Obama emerged from almost nowhere, that Clinton emerged from almost nowhere that they both emerged to become president through the primary process. That's how Joe Biden became president four years ago, because he won a primary. Democrats like primaries, they like seeing who wins them, and they like then uniting behind them. And I think that is, given the circumstances given that, as you said, the situation is not going to improve, and it could even get dramatically worse I think now is the moment to make that leap. SMERCONISH: Last night, the President was asked by George Stephanopoulos, what happens if a delegation come to you, a group of Democrats that you respect, and they say that they think it's time to go, Let's all watch the response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: If you can be convinced that you cannot defeat Donald Trump, will you stand down?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With the Friends of the Lord Almighty comes out and tells me that I might do that.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, I mean, on a more practical level, Washington Post just reported in the last hour that Senator Mark Warner is assembling a group of senators together to try convince you to stand down because they don't think you can win.

BIDEN: Well, Mark is a good man, we've never had that. He also tried to get the nomination too. Mark's not -- Mark , and I have a different perspective. I respect him.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And if Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries and Nancy Pelosi come down and say, we're worried that if you stay in the race, we're going to lose the House and the Senate. How will you respond?

BIDEN: I just go into detail. And I've spoken to all of them in detail, including Jim Clyburn, every one of it all said I should stay in the race. Stay in the race. No one said -- no people said I should leave.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But if they do?

BIDEN: Well, we're not going to do that.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You sure?

BIDEN: Yes, I'm sure. Look, I mean, if the Lord Almighty came out, said, Joe, get out of the race, got out of the race, the Lord Almighty is not coming down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: Stuart, at what point is it selfish? I mean, he doesn't seem to be in touch with the polling data, that all tells the same story. The polling data would all have to be wrong.

STEVENS: No, that's not right. How many voters that started watching this debate, and or Joe Biden voters and ended up at the end of that debate Donald Trump voters, not very many, in fact, he went up with Independents. You have a candidate and Donald Trump, who I think had a spectacularly bad debate, arguably worse than Joe Biden's. All Donald Trump had to do was go out there.

SMERCONISH: Nobody is talking about that. STEVENS: But -- well, that's not my fault. I think people should talk about it. And I think that in campaigns, you can direct what people talk about when you run campaigns. And there's a long campaign to be run here.

But think about this, if Donald Trump had gone up there and said, you know, I never run for office before. I learned a lot as president, it was a turbulent presidency. I'm going to do better next time. If he had provided some sort of economic plan, he would have walked off that stage a stronger candidate.

I think both candidates walked off stage weaker candidates than they were when they walked on. So the question then becomes, who can go forward with the strongest message?

And look, I love Anne Applebaum, I read everything she says. I'm passed out twilight of democracy, like watchtowers in the Air Force. So it's very uncomfortable for me to be in any sort of opposition here. I just look at it from someone who works in campaigns. And in the real world, of trying to put together an organization, to get that organization inspired, it's very, very difficult if you try to change at this point.

[09:15:00]

And there is a sort of underlying message here that I think is being overlooked that the Democrats would have to face, and that is Donald Trump said that our guy wasn't qualified to be president. Looks like he was right. OK. We'll try again. We'll get it right.

SMERCONISH: I have so much that -- I have so much that I want to say in response to that, but I want to give Anne the floor so that she can respond. Go ahead, Anne.

APPLEBAUM: So I don't think this is about who likes who. I mean, this is an argument, it's a legitimate argument about who is best placed to win. Because actually, that's the only thing that matters. It matters that we prevent someone as chaotic, as dangerous as Donald Trump from ever becoming president again. And in order to do that we need to have -- we need everybody united, I agree with that.

And we need people to feel that their candidate is the right one. We need people to be inspired to vote, they can't. They can't say well, oh, they're both, you know, a bunch of old guys, I'm not interested. We need people to get out and work for the President. And I think having a having a primary, having a vote at the convention would do that for people.

SMERCONISH: Anne Appelbaum, Stuart Stevens, I appreciate you both. Thank you for being here.

STEVENS: Thank you, Michael.

APPLEBAUM: Thank you.

SMERCONISH: What are your thoughts? Hit me up on social media? I'll read some responses throughout the course of the program.

From the world of YouTube, if Biden is out as the candidate then the question is why can he stay in the White House? Democrats need to allow Harris to test drive the country as the hot spare.

Joe the Nerd, I don't think that happens. And by the way, I don't think it necessarily follows. I think you can say that you have confidence in his capability today. Maybe diminished confidence, but that you're so concerned as to how he looks in four years, he'd be 86 at the end of that second term, and in that you don't have confidence. Consequently, he can remain but can't run for the second term.

I don't think one necessarily follows the other. I can't wait to see how you're voting on today's poll question. Go to smerconish.com and tell me which would make Kamala Harris a stronger Democratic presidential nominee? Would it be acclamation or competition?

Up ahead, for the 51 million people who watched the debate some might have said, hey, I told you so over Biden's performance, but many others perhaps were left wondering how come I didn't know the situation was this bad? Was the media complicit in underplaying President Biden's situation? Former "New York Times" executive editor Jill Abramson will be here to talk about that issue. She's next.

And don't forget to sign up for the newsletter when you're voting at smerconish.com for which Scott Stantis of the Dallas Morning News and Chicago Tribune sketched this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:20:39]

SMERCONISH: Right out of the gate, it was clear that something wasn't right with President Biden in the debate. As millions of viewers watched this some those, they were left wondering why they hadn't seen this side of the president before. Was the media asleep at the switch on his condition? Former "New York Times" executive editor Jill Abramson told Semafor that journalists have failed in their most basic duty which is to hold the most power accountable. And the Democrats have no leg to stand on now when they blame the media for overreacting in the aftermath.

Jill Abramson, political columnist for The Guardian joins me now. So, assess. Give me some more detail here on how you see the media's handling of the President's mental acuity pre debate.

JILL ABRAMSON, POLITICAL COLUMNIST, THE GUARDIAN: Pre debate, I do think there was a failure on the part of the news media, because part of holding power accountable, is providing voters with the information they need about the fitness for office of both candidates. And personally, I think there are big questions about both of them. All I can tell you is at the "New York Times" when I was a senior editor there, we had a physician, Dr. Larry K. Altman, who every presidential cycle, did a thorough scrub based on medical information and his medical background of what the physical condition of the two candidates were. And you know, he'd start working on this months before the election.

And why no news organization took it upon itself to undertake an investigation, I don't care that neither candidate would cooperate, you don't let that stop you. When did that stop reporters in the past from getting the story? You needed to have a team of very well informed medical and political reporters doing a deep dive into the health of Trump and Biden. And I --

SMERCONISH: OK, so if you're right --

ABRAMSON: -- last February.

SMERCONISH: If you're right that the media was a wall with regard to Biden, how much of it was driven by the fear that they'd be helping Donald Trump if they were to report on these issues? And I asked that because I know from my experience, if there's some type of a gaffe on the part of President Biden and I show it or discuss it, I'm overwhelmed in a social media context by people who say, oh, all you're doing is helping Donald Trump. Well, how, you know --

ABRAMSON: yes.

SMERCONISH: -- how am I not supposed to have a candid conversation? Does that play a role?

ABRAMSON: It plays a part for sure. And right now, in real time, every reporter who was on this story and his writing about the decline in Biden's cognitive abilities is facing an onslaught of social media criticism.

SMERCONISH: Right.

ABRAMSON: Today, this hour, of course, and no one's saying that's pleasant, but come on, we've never let that make us abdicate our First Amendment duties before.

SMERCONISH: Annie Linskey from the Wall Street Journal was my guest here just a week ago. She shared the byline --

ABRAMSON: Yes.

SMERCONISH: -- on I think it was June for when The Journal came forward --

[09:25:00]

ABRAMSON: Right.

SMERCONISH: -- and headed in this subject matter. And I know that there was enormous blowback from the white -- from the White House and they said this was a Republican hit job.

ABRAMSON: Enormous. Enormous.

SMERCONISH: Right. So how -- so, I have this question for Jill Abramson, how much of the media's unwillingness to get into this subject before was driven by a fear that they'd be cut off from White House access?

ABRAMSON: Well, I know that that was a factor. I don't think it is the dominant factor. And hat to Annie Linskey the team at the Journal. They not only faced blowback from the White House, but criticism from their competitors in the press. I heard endless nitpicking of that story and its sourcing and turns out looking back, it was dead on right.

SMERCONISH: I want to read aloud something. I put it on the screen from Brian Stelter, who is a former colleague of both of ours. He said, "After talking to top reporters at the White House beat, what emerges is a far more nuanced picture. The national media wasn't dodging the story, the biggest newspapers in the country published lengthy stories about Biden's mental fitness. The public wasn't in the dark about Biden's age, most voters, 67 percent according to Gallup thought he was too old to be president even before the debate.

But questions about Biden's fitness for office were not emphasized as much as they should have been. That's the third option. The stories should have been tougher, the volume should have been louder." Do you buy into that?

ABRAMSON: I mean, isn't that always the case with every story where the public has faced a failure of credible well reported information? It's always nuanced. It's always difficult. Brian's right, but still, the public did not get the information that it deserved from the news media.

SMERCONISH: OK, final question for Jill Abramson. Now, will there be an overcorrection? Will every sneeze be reported on?

ABRAMSON: Absolutely. You and I both know that. But there's also a lot of really good reporting going on not only by your previous guests, but in the Atlantic also was a great article by Dr. Zeke Emanuel, which made the point that we're looking at now and four years from now, but that isn't how old age works. Old age is a process of decline. And we're seeing it before our eyes and it's going to get much worse.

SMERCONISH: Right.

ABRAMSON: And he's a very credible doctor.

SMERCONISH: Jill Abramson, thank you. Appreciate your being here.

ABRAMSON: Well, thanks a lot.

SMERCONISH: Via social media, some more of the reaction, this from the world of X. He asked the same question about 10 times. The press is not being fair. There was no coverage of Trump lies and outrageous threats. He asked the same question about 10 times.

Carol Ann, are you -- are you speaking of George Stephanopoulos? I thought that Stephanopoulos had a very difficult assignment on his hands, and that he was terrific. I thought that his tone and his manner were appropriately respectful. I thought that he was civil. And yet he asked all the right questions, and that he was probing.

I also thought that when he said at the outset, you know that the interview was 22 minutes in length, I thought to myself, well, that's not going to be enough. But at the end of the 22 minutes, I was satisfied that he had covered what he needed to and that the President was treated fairly. And as I said, in my commentary at the outset, that people were going to, you know, draw from it their own conclusions.

Was it reassuring? It was not, in my opinion. Make sure you're going to smerconish.com and voting on today's poll question, which would make Kamala Harris, a stronger Democratic presidential nominee, acclamation or competition? Up ahead as Gen Z graduates high school with rising tuition costs and student loan debt, many are skipping out on traditional four year college degrees. Why blue collar jobs may be the way to go and what the data tells us.

I'll respond in just a moment to more of your social media comments regarding the whole situation on the 2024 presidential race. Make sure you're subscribing to my newsletter when you're voting at smerconish.com. You'll get editorial cartoons from the legends like this from Rob Rogers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:33:35]

SMERCONISH: Here are some of the social media coming in during the course of today's program. Like you, I do not see them in advance.

Rakesh, Biden has been running for president his entire career. Are you really expecting him to walk away? Not going to happen.

I must say, Rakesh, there's this -- this feeling that you get from him watching the interview where it's essentially Joe Biden against the world. You know, it's like he's got to take on all comers. In fact, I want to play for you just a real quick snippet of something that was said to George Stephanopoulos by the president that relates to your comment. Roll that tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: Mr. President, I've never seen a president 36 percent approval get reelected.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I don't believe that's my approval rating. That's not what our polls show.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And if you stay in and Trump is elected and everything you're warning about comes to pass, how will you feel in January?

BIDEN: I'll feel as long as I gave it my all and I did the goodest job as I know I can do, that's what this is about.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SMERCONISH: Right. That's a comment that works in another context where the stakes, as perceived by Democrats, are not existential relative to democracy. That's why that answer was far below the mark.

More social media reaction. Didn't mean to interrupt the flow, but I wanted to show you that. I put it in my head.

Acclimation. Picture this, the Bidens, the Clintons, Obamas on convention stage saying together, we support Kamala.

[09:35:01]

What a boost. Right. But, Pete, why does it have to be one or the other? Why couldn't it be competition? Let her -- let her earn it. And after she earns it, if she does, then you can have Bidens and Clintons and Obamas all on that stage and, you know, welcoming the new generation of leadership.

More social media. What do we have? I think that competition is in her best interest and all of ours.

We hear about Trump's many flaws 24/7. The media is two years late to the leader of the free world being a danger. Where have you been?

I think it's a fair criticism. I really do. And I think it's a combination of factors. I think that part of it is a fear that you're going to elect Donald Trump. If you talk about these things, you're going to elect Donald Trump.

And why do I say that? Because I know from first-hand experience, often on the receiving end of your hostile social media, where I'm willing to talk about the shortcomings of both ends of the spectrum. But whenever I have done so relative to Biden what have you said to me in your tweets and other social media comments? Oh, you're carrying Donald Trump's water.

And my response is then to say, well, OK, stick your head back in the sand. And on November 6, we can have an interesting conversation. More social media. Give me what you've got, Catherine.

The I don't think so response to if he watched the debate confirmed his cognitive decline. In my view. I love the president.

Yes. I mean, come on. The answer -- do we have that, Catherine? Do we have -- I'm sorry to catch you cold. I know we cut it before the -- we don't have it. OK.

Well, he was asked by George Stephanopoulos, you know, did you watch the debate? And he said, I don't think so. I don't -- I don't think I did. I don't think I did.

Wait a minute. We're in the midst of a crisis here. The whole world is talking about that debate. You either did or you didn't. And more alarming than his inability -- play it, then I'll make my comment. Roll that tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANOPOULOS: Did you ever watch the debate afterwards?

BIDEN: I don't think I did, no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: OK. Houston, we have a problem. I don't think I did, no. I don't think I did.

Everybody is talking about the debate. It was nine days ago. You either did or you didn't watch it.

And there are two problems. Problem number one is that he doesn't remember. And problem number two is that he lacks the self-awareness of recognizing the shortcoming of that response. That -- that's really what ought to shake people up.

One more real quick. It has got to be a quickie. I love when I can get through a whole bunch of these.

It has to be very soon to give whoever gets the mantle an opportunity to run successfully.

Corinne, I agree with you. This all comes to a head one way or the other very, very soon. I'd be shocked if by next Saturday when were back together, God willing, if there isn't some resolution of all of this.

That was fun. Keep the social media comments coming. I really do appreciate it. I'm on all the usual platforms.

Still to come, why many are ditching college for trade school. There's no longer just one path to prosperity. And don't forget to vote on today's poll question at Smerconish.com. Which would make Kamala Harris a stronger Democratic presidential nominee, acclamation or competition?

When you're voting, sign up for the free and worthy daily newsletter. Jack Ohman drew this for us this week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:42:57]

SMERCONISH: In today's work environment is a vocational trade school degree becoming a more direct career path to economic success than a conventional four-year college degree? According to Gallup, in the past decade the percentage of Americans who expressed a lot of confidence in higher education, it fell from 57 percent to 36 percent, and that's during a decade that tuition has gone up another 12 percent.

Meanwhile, there's a growing shortage of skilled trades people. The current crop is aging out of jobs and fewer people are choosing those careers. By way of example, the U.S. expected to be short some 550,000 plumbers by 2027.

According to the National Electrical Contractors Association, nearly 30 percent of union electricians are near retirement. Over the next decade, some 1.9 million manufacturing jobs could go unfilled. But that also means there's a booming opportunity.

"USA Today" recently noted that among the growing number of millionaires in America are a new cohort of, quote, unquote, "millionaires next door." As they put it, "Americans who built seven or eight-figure fortunes from essentially nothing, without high- powered law degrees or inherited wealth." Jobs like owning a fleet of ice cream trucks, or eBay business, or family roofing company.

The "Wall Street Journal" recently featured a first-person piece entitled "Why I Skipped College to Be an HVAC Tech," whose author said that he was more interested in getting a mortgage than running up student loan debt. And my next guest wrote a like-minded piece in the "Washington Post" which for a while was number one on the site, "I went to trade school during law school. It left me stunned."

Joining me now is Darnell Epps, a recent graduate of the Yale Law School, and Lincoln Technical Institute of Vocational School in East Windsor, Connecticut. He's now the founder and CEO of Thurgood Industries connecting employers and potential workers. Darnell, good to see you. Why did you go to vo-tech school?

DARNELL EPPS, YALE LAW SCHOOL GRADUATE/FOUNDER AND CEO, THURGOOD INDUSTRIES: Yes. I mean, I was attending -- nice to be here. First, Michael, thank you for having me.

[09:45:01]

I was attending law school in the city, New Haven, that had a 26 percent poverty rate, the median household income of $42,000. Yet, employers at General Dynamics and other companies were looking to fill thousands -- tens of thousands of skilled positions. It couldn't find entry-level talent.

And like you mentioned, you know, many of the older workers who were skilled were retiring from the industry. And there was this desperate need to fill these vacancies as well as the growing jobs that were needed at the entry-level as well because, you know, by 2030 it's expected that 2.1 million jobs will be unfilled in advanced manufacturing sector due to the current skills gap that we face here in America.

So, it really motivated me to go and enroll at a vo-tech school to really understand what the skills were that employers were looking for and to try -- to build a company that can get that message across to communities with hunger for economic opportunity was greatest.

SMERCONISH: Have we oversold the value of a college education to young people? As I'm listening to Darnell Epps, I'm thinking about my mother being one of 11. Of the 11, two had college degrees, the other nine did not. They all did well but I can speak for all 11 in raising their kids it was, you must go to college. You've got to get a college degree. And I think it has just become ingrained in this idea of pursuit of the American dream. But maybe we need to rethink that.

EPPS: Yes. Frankly, part of the problem stems from the fact that the cost of college has ballooned at multiple times the rate of inflation over the past several decades. Today, it's actually cheaper to launch your career in trades, even if you later decide to obtain a four-year degree.

I was meeting with talent acquisition folks and employers at Sikorsky, for example, and they had full tuition reimbursement program so entry- level machinists -- I mean, theoretically someone can, you know, get an entry-level job as a machinist straight out of high school and have their tuition fully reimbursed if they decide to pursue a four-year degree later.

But that's not the message that's getting to high school graduates through their counselors and it's this traditional track of go to a four-year institution, perhaps take out a massive loan, and then work on paying that off down the road.

But I think what we're trying to do here at Thurgood is show that there are different pathways to upward economic mobility and work in the trades. It's not only dignified work, but it's -- it's -- it's that kind of pathway as well.

SMERCONISH: You didn't just go to law school. You went to arguably the number one or number two or number three law school in the country. What was the reaction among your Yale classmates that Darnell Epps was not only going to Yale Law School but also going to trade school at the same time?

EPPS: Well, many of my classmates, they understood what my mission and goal was here, which was to connect people again in communities with a hunger for economic opportunity is greatest to meaningful careers. Not everyone wants to work in the gig economy of being an Uber driver.

So, my classmates were supportive. My friends were supportive. It was not the traditional pathway for a Yale law student. Typically, you'll get a joint JD-MBA. I decided to become a machinist.

But, you know, there are -- there are some -- some great engineering minds that went to Yale Law School as well. There's a bit of history there as well. Whether you think of Kevin Czinger and others --

SMERCONISH: Darnell --

EPPS: Yes.

SMERCONISH: Darnell, limited on time, but quickly tell us, OK, now that you're a machinist and a lawyer, what was the first thing you made in the machine shop?

EPPS: Believe it or not, in typical lawyer fashion, I machined a gavel which I gave to my son now six, and I had to prevent him from putting it through the drywall in our home. It inspired the logo for our company as well.

So, you know, I had so many friends I met at Lincoln Tech -- instructors that I still speak with today and meet with for breakfast. Just a great community there as well as. You know, I'll forever remember that. You know, my work in this space is really devoted to improving the lives of people who want to pursue careers in this -- in this -- in advanced industry.

SMERCONISH: Good for you. Congratulations --

EPPS: Thank you.

SMERCONISH: -- on both of your graduations, Darnell. Good to have you here.

EPPS: Thanks, Michael. Appreciate it.

SMERCONISH: Darnell, Darnell Epps, ladies and gentlemen. OK. Make sure you're voting at Smerconish.com on the poll question of the day.

[09:50:04]

Here is some reaction. Michael says, it is simply supply and demand. Less supply in trades. I have several clients who started in trades then opened their own company in their field. They earn mid to upper six figures by their late 30s. Like we need more --

Whoa, Michael, you had me up until the last line. Really? You have to take a shot at the lawyers. No, I agree with you.

And as I said to Darnell, I think, that there's a message for parents, you know? And by the way, a lot of parents like me talk a good game and then don't follow the advice because we pushed ours into education, education, education as well. And yet a trades person in my neighborhood could do extremely well.

Still to come, the final results of today's poll question at Smerconish.com. Which would make Kamala Harris a stronger Democratic presidential nominee, acclamation or competition?

When you're there, sign up for the newsletter. You'll love it. You'll get exclusive work from Pulitzer Prize winner Steve Breen.

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[09:55:35]

SMERCONISH: So, there's the poll result so far at Smerconish -- wow, pretty decisive, 31,000 and change, 73 percent say, hey, Kamala Harris would be stronger if she had to compete for it. I agree with that.

Social media reaction. What do we have real quick? A divided convention will not help the winner. Pete is on the flip side of that. Pete, I disagree. I think for all the reasons I said let her earn it in the convention, then she comes out with a head of steam. One more. I think I can squeeze it in. Let's go. What do we have?

I have a question for you and the rest of the media. Why does Joe Biden have such a higher bar to get over than Trump, a convicted felon? Why is no one saying this guy shouldn't be running?

Erin, plenty of people have been saying that. They've been saying it for light years, but the focus this week is on Joe Biden's debate performance. And if he had been on top of his game, all the attention would have been on Donald Trump's 30 lies. I'll see you next week.

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