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Smerconish

A Sad, New Normacy; CEO Killing Highlights Widespread Rage At Healthcare Industry; Who Drone It; Should ICE Be Able To Arrest Undocumented People At Sensitive Locations? Aired 9-10a ET

Aired December 14, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:00:23]

MICHAEL SMERCONISH: What a sad new normalcy. Michael I'm Michael Smerconish in Philadelphia. I was in New York City this week to host my SiriusXM radio program and to tape a CNN special. So Tuesday night I walked down 54th Street between 6th and 7th Avenue en route to dinner. The scene was typical Manhattan during the holidays.

The traffic was gridlocked. There was a light drizzle. 50-degree temperatures, but that didn't deter holiday shoppers who were walking by with their packages. Workers were headed toward subway stations. Large windows gave me a view into a hotel bar on the south side of the street. It was packed. There was a normalcy to it all, but nothing about it was normal. At least not to me.

The following morning, I walked that same stretch en route to my radio studio. The city was now coming to life. The streetscape was dotted with Uber drivers and construction workers unloading drywall from a big truck next to the Ziegfeld Theater. This is my customary route to work in the city. I wasn't drawn by any morbid curiosity.

It was Wednesday, in the 6:00 a.m. hour I slowed my gait as I passed a side entrance to the Hilton Hotel, realizing that this was the same day in the same early morning hour, in the Precise location where one week prior, a 50-year-old father of two was assassinated. But something was missing.

Any sign whatsoever of the tragedy that occurred right here and which has captivated the nation? We've all seen the crime scene that's been shown many times in the media. There it is. But a week later, here's what was left. A lone piece of NYPD crime tape affixed to a barrier. No memorial of the kind that often appears spontaneously after a similar tragedy.

Like when John Lennon was murdered in New York City in 1980. Or when 32-year-old Heather Heyer was run down in Charlottesville, Virginia. George Floyd's murder in Minneapolis. The spot in Kenosha, Wisconsin where Joseph Rosenbaum and Anthony Huber were shot and killed by Kyle Rittenhouse. Crowds grieve the loss of Helena Hutchins, the cinematographer who was fatally shot on the set of the film Rust. The University of Georgia held a vigil for Lake and Riley, a nursing student who was killed by a migrant near campus. And when Donald Trump returned to the site of his first assassination attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania, supporters appropriately honored Cory Comparatore's life and service by placing his firefighter's uniform in the stands. But there was no sign of any makeshift memorial on 54th Street. Instead, a poster was taped outside the Hilton Hotel depicting the suspect as a saint with the words Free Luigi, a reference to the 26-year-old charged with second-degree murder. And there have also been sightings of wanted posters targeting other corporate executives in midtown Manhattan, which I find rather despicable.

On the Ivy League campus from which the alleged shooter graduated, an assistant professor at Pennsylvania wrote on TikTok that she'd never been more proud to be a professor at the university and reportedly called the alleged shooter an icon we all need and deserve. At least she later apologized, saying that her comments were both insensitive and inappropriate. One person who has spoken out Brian Thompson's boss, United Health Group CEO Andrew Witte.

He eulogized his late colleague in a New York Times op-ed, writing this, quote, "Brian was one of those people. He was raised in the same Iowa farmhouse as his mom. His dad spent more than 40 years unloading trucks at grain elevators. BT as we knew him worked farm jobs as a kid and fished at a gravel pit with his brother. He never forgot where he came from because it was the needs of people who live in places like Jewell, Iowa that he considered first in finding ways to improve care."

And does Brian Thompson's family, friends, and colleagues mourn his killing, The Wall Street Journal, I think, correctly noted this. "It's a dreadful sign of the times that Mr. Mangione is being celebrated in too many places as a worthy avenger instead of allegedly deranged killer. But that's how our culture has degraded, egged on for political purposes or audience ratings by many who know better.

Brian Thompson's sons will never see him again. Mr. Mangione faces a murder charge in New York that could send him to prison for the rest of his life. Anyone who sees that as anything other than a tragedy deserves the scorn that we hope they receive."

[09:05:06]

So true. And that all needs to be said first in any assessment of what just transpired. It's all a rather un-American response to a murder, as noted by Jeffrey Sonnenfeld and Steven Tian in an analysis that they wrote for Yale.

Look, our healthcare system is broken, but it won't be fixed through the barrel of a gun. It has to happen through legislative and executive action by politicians who are willing to prioritize the concerns of those they were elected to serve instead of the lobbyists whose contributions elected them and keep them in office.

Joining me now is Scott Galloway, an NYU professor at the Stern School of Business, host of the podcast Prof G, and author most recently of the Algebra of Wealth: A Simple Formula for Financial Security. Love having you here as always, Scott. It's complicated and I want to say up front, there are two families, right, that are suffering with this tragic outcome.

SCOTT GALLOWAY, PROFESSOR OF MARKETING, NYU STERN SCHOOL OF BUSINESS: Yes. Always good to be with you, Michael. Like the definition of intelligence is the ability to hold two thoughts in your mind at the same time. And this was a gruesome murder, as you articulately pointed out. A lot of loss for the Thompson family. What's also gruesome is a healthcare system that has figured out a way to weaponize government and has healthcare systems, including United, that reject one-third of claims. A healthcare system where despite the fact that we have invented the majority of pharmaceuticals in the world and distribute and manufacture them, we pay on average $1,500 per citizen and the rest of the world pays 500. A world in which we have the strongest economy in the world, but the number one source of bankruptcy is medical debt.

U.S. Consumer healthcare is the biggest business in the world, but it's been optimized, like everything else in the United States, for shareholders. And that is the way you really bring this down to a ground level and explain some of the rage felt by people across America is, you know, in the New York Times they have that section called vows where they highlight and celebrate people been recently married. There was one very poignant one, and that is they usually don't allow people, they don't feature people unless they can show proof they have been legally married. And they made an exception for a young woman who decided just to have the ceremony and not be legally married because she is suffering from brain cancer and didn't want to encumber her spouse with medical debt.

So the level of anxiety, despair, and distress that the nation and its regulatory capture through our elected Representatives have levied on the American public means we really don't have a democracy. We have a capital accuracy and that is we do vote for our elected representatives. But it's money.

The number one spender on lobbying isn't the defense industry, it's not big tech. It's a healthcare industry. And two thirds of those lobbyists are former government officials. This is no longer about the nation. You know, our elected representatives no longer optimize for our nation. They optimize for the NASDAQ.

SMERCONISH: Can we have this conversation which I welcome without glorifying murder?

GALLOWAY: Gosh, you know, you got to hope so. I mean this. You pointed out this was a man with two sons. This is not -- we can't have our anarchy. You said it perfectly. This problem isn't going to be solved through the barrel of a gun. There's legislation right now from Senators Warren and Hawley who I would point out are not ideological on the same train a lot. The people before monopoly legislation that tries to diverticulize insurance companies who control and own some pharmacies who steer more people to their pharmacies, putting local pharmacies out of business and then using their heft to negotiate better prices from pharmaceutical companies that they then keep. United Healthcare stock has quintupled in the last 10 years. It's

beaten the NASDAQ. And yet one out of three claims that they received are rejected. This has to be a civil conversation. But I think rage is directed at the wrong place. I think the rage should be directed not only at Washington, but the voters who've decided that America is now a platform where the bottom 90 percent are responsible for innovating and generating and supporting an economy that's essentially optimized for the top 10 percent who own 90 percent of the shares. And the notion that somehow the CEOs of these companies are going to call on their better angels and figure out, start thinking long term about the health and welfare of the commonwealth.

Don't hold your breath, Michael. I've been on the board of seven public companies and a bunch of private companies and I'm not proud to say this, but there's only one criteria for a CEO and that's getting the share price up.

[09:10:00]

SMERCONISH: The CEO of the parent wrote for the New York Times. I'm going to put on the screen and I'll read aloud just one paragraph that caught my eye. He said, and this is Andrew Witte. He said, "We know the healthcare system does not work as well as it should and we understand people's frustrations with it. No one would design a system like the one we have and no one did. It's a patchwork built over decades. How can we be doing it different? You have this experience of being abroad, of having lived there for a brief time period. What's the model? What should come from this?

GALLOWAY: We pay double person, 13,000. What other G7 nations pay? On average, they pay $6,500. And in exchange for that we have worse outcomes. So here in the U.K., while the NHS has its issues, you have universal coverage. 70 percent of America, Michael, wants universal coverage and price caps. And yet they never happen because see above, the number one Lobman group.

Realistically, we're not overnight going to have universal health care. I like the idea of taking Medicare down a couple years, every year, until everyone's covered by it. But at the end of the day, we have to hold these, our elected officials accountable and say, how much money are you taking from the pharmaceutical and the health industrial complex? We talk about an axis of evil being Russia, North Korea, and Iran.

I'll give you an axis of evil in the United States, the industrial food complex that puts all these dyes and pesticides and preservatives in our food. The first thing I notice in London is that food actually rots. Why? Because there are 1,100 chemicals, they don't allow in our food. The result is 70 percent of Americans are obese or overweight, and then they hand them over to the medical industrial complex where they make $13,000 per citizen.

So again, is America about serving the people, or is about serving shareholders? The top 10 percent benefit from this system because we own 90 percent of the shares. But until we start electing a democracy, a democratic government that represents the bottom 90, and we get rid of Citizens United, where it's no longer just about. Shareholders are wagging the entire dog of the nation here. And it manifests in some very ugly ways, including a healthcare industrial complex where pharmaceutical Companies are spending 88 billion on R and D and 100 billion on marketing, on lobbying. So obviously they're optimizing for shares.

The pro, the for-profit incentive we have in this nation above all else, is having terrible externalities, including healthcare.

SMERCONISH: Two reactions. One, you're sounding like Bobby, not necessarily a bad thing. But a lot of what I just heard from Scott Galloway, I know I've heard from Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And the second observation is I'd love to have this dialogue about whether we should go to some other type of system, single-payer. But I remember well what the climate was like when President Obama had this plan to create exchanges very Amazon-like and allow people to go on and purchase private health insurance. And it was derided as socialism and people hung Gadsden don't tread on me flags.

So I don't know that the American people, as upset as they are with the current system, have the stomach for that political battle. Your thoughts?

GALLOWAY: Not only do they have the stomach, but do they have the desire? American superpowers are optimism, but the reality is the bottom 90 percent of their to optimize the top 10 percent. And the strange thing, Michael, is I believe the bottom 90 percent understands it and supports it because they believe at some point they might be in the top 10 percent. So we have decided that the most anxious, obese, depressed generation of young people in history, people who have claims for wheelchairs for their recently paralyzed kids being rejected. We have decided to accept that and normalize it such that the NASDAQ reaches new highs. We are no longer optimizing for the nation, we're optimizing for the NASDAQ. And if you want to be enraged at someone, look at the man in the mirror.

We continue to vote for people who will delay and obfuscate any healthcare reform if they get money from the healthcare industrial complex such that they can get reelected. We chose this system. This is not -- we're not victims of this. We're the culprits. We have purposely opted for a system that shoves money from the bottom 90 and despair. We trade despair and distress at the bottom 90 such that the top 10 can get wealthier and wealthier. And we have chosen this system. We have chosen not an economy, not in a society, but a Hunger Games-like platform called America.

SMERCONISH: I appreciate you. I probably won't have the privilege of having you on the program between now and the end of the year. So although you're in my special. You are in my special in between Christmas and New Year's. So I wanted to say thank you for all the appearances that you've made with me here this year. Thank you, Scott.

GALLOWAY: Thank you, Mike. I appreciate your courage and your willingness to just take truth to power. Happy holidays to you and yours.

[09:15:03]

SMERCONISH: And to you. Up ahead, reports of mysterious drones seen throughout New Jersey and surrounding areas are growing. The Fed say there's nothing to worry about while President-elect Trump now saying shoot them down. We have two members of the New Jersey assembly who have both witnessed the drones.

And later the incoming Trump administration could end an immigration policy which limits enforcement actions in so-called protected areas which leads today's poll question at smerconish.com Here it is.

Should immigration enforcement actions be constrained in areas such as schools, medical facilities, places of worship, funerals, and weddings? Go vote at smerconish.com. While you're there, sign up for my newsletter. You'll get editorial cartoons like this from Scott Stantis.

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[09:20:29]

SMERCONISH: The drones have descended on Jersey. I wonder what Tony Soprano would have to say about all of it. New Jersey lawmakers and residents are still looking for answers after dozens of drones have been spotted flying over the state. Many were seen over key infrastructure sites.

Officials have spotted drones near a U.S. Military research facility as well as incoming President Trump's golf course in Bedminster. Trump criticized the government's response on Truth Social Friday, writing this. "Mystery drone sightings all over the country. Can this really be happening without our government's knowledge? I don't think so. Let the public know and now otherwise shoot them down."

The White House assured reporters there was no sign of threat, despite not being able to track the origins of most of the sightings.

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JOHN KIRBY, NATIONAL SECURITY COMMUNICATIONS ADVISER: We have no evidence at this time that the reported drone sightings pose a national security or a public safety threat or have a foreign nexus. The Department of Homeland Security and the FBI are investigating these sightings, and they're working closely with state and local law enforcement to provide resources, using numerous detection methods to better understand their origin. We have not been able to, and neither have state or local law enforcement authorities corroborate any of the reported visual sightings.

To the contrary, upon review of available imagery, it appears that many of the reported sightings are actually manned aircraft that are being operated lawfully.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SMERCONISH: Here's what we do know. This is According to a briefing by Homeland Security officials this week, the Federal Aviation Administration stated suspected drones appear to be large, up to six feet in diameter. There have been as many as 180 sightings per day since November 18th. They often come after dark with their lights shut off, and they appear to avoid detection and operate in coordination.

Local officials remain unsettled and criticize the meeting for providing little information on these drones.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ASSEMBLYMAN BRIAN BERGEN, (R) NEW JERSEY: Now I'm legitimately concerned for what the hell is going on because nobody knows.

MAYOR RYAN HERD, (R) PEQUANNOCK, NEW JERSEY: We are literally being invaded by drones and we have no idea who's doing it and where they're coming from.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SMERCONISH: New Jersey Assemblywoman Dawn Fantasia published detailed notes from the briefing on social media for her constituents. In a Tweet this week, she wrote the following. "We know nothing, period. To state that there is no known or credible threat is incredibly misleading and I Informed all officials of that sentiment. At this point, I believe military intervention is the only path forward. There will be no answers in the absence of proactivity."

Joining me now is Assemblywoman Fantasia and Assemblyman Mike Inganamort, both attended this briefing at the New Jersey State Police headquarters and are asking for more transparency on the drones. And both have personally witnessed the drones. I'll begin with you, Assemblywoman Anastasia. Tell me exactly what you saw.

ASSEMBLYWOMAN DAWN FANTASIA, (R) NEW JERSEY: Well, the first thing I saw at a briefing was complete government ineptitude. But if you're talking about what I saw at in the airspace above Sussex County and above District 24, I've witnessed two. One, I've seen in my hometown, hovering over my home and our neighborhood. But the second one was a bit more troubling.

What I saw was I was driving towards a corridor that leads directly into Route 80, which is a national highway. Now, please keep in mind that we are prohibited from flying drones over heavily trafficked areas. And this drone was flying very low and headed directly along that corridor towards Route 80. So that's very concerning to me,

SMERCONISH: Assemblyman Inganamort, surely the Feds know what's going on. Feds loosely described. Otherwise, we're wasting a fortune in the Department of Defense.

ASSEMBLYMAN MICHAEL INGANAMORT, (R) NEW JERSEY: Well, clearly they don't, Michael, because in John Kirby's statement the other day, he stated that most of these sightings are not drones. In fact, they're airplanes. That specifically and clearly contradicts the confirmations we've gotten from military bases here in New Jersey, including one of the largest very close to the district that Assemblywoman Fantasia and I represent, Picatinny Arsenal.

Picatinny Arsenal has confirmed the sightings of these drones night after night. You don't have to take our word for it, although I myself, I saw three last night above my home. That tends to be the average night after night. I'm in western Morris County, which has been ground zero for this situation, and we have been inundated with drones for four weeks now. We're a month into this.

[09:25:03]

We hear from John Kirby at long last, who says, don't worry, they're mostly airplanes. Haven't heard from President Biden on this once. Certainly not, Secretary Mayorkas. We are crying out for federal leadership here because we are long overdue for action.

SMERCONISH: Assemblywoman, by the way, apologies. I think I misstated your last name. And with a name like Smerconish, I hate to do that. Donald Trump is right then, right? Donald Trump is right. If you really don't know, then shoot one of them down.

FANTASIA: That has been our battle cry for quite a period of time. And also, you cannot tell me that our military does not have the capabilities to safely ground one of these. We're not talking Wild West. Someone grabs their 12 gauge and blows it out of the sky. We're talking about a controlled military operation to take this down. Because things are only getting worse.

In the past 30 minutes, I read that the New Jersey Globe, that there was an airport in Orange County, New York, last night, Stewart Airport, that was closed down due to one of these drones. Now, what happens when this happens during the holiday season around Newark Airport, around LaGuardia? What happens?

SMERCONISH: Assemblyman, it occurs to me, I'm sure you're going to disabuse me of this, but now we're all focused on the sky in a way we otherwise would not be. Is it possible that people just have a heightened sense of awareness and are looking for things, and consequently the reports multiply, and that maybe if there were this kind of a fixation in Iowa tonight, they'd be seeing the same thing?

INGANAMORT: Well, you're right that I will disabuse you of that notion, because these drones are real. As I said earlier, you don't have to take my word for it. Picatinny Arsenal confirmed it. We see these drones night after night. We may vary on the number, on the size, on the frequency, on the speed, but we do have visual confirmation from our military bases here in New Jersey that these drones are present. They seem to be especially concentrated in northwest New Jersey, though at this point, they're all over the state. And I just reiterate my call for federal leadership here.

New Jersey is the 11th biggest state, home to 9 million people. It seems like all 9 million of us are talking about this morning, noon, and night. This is not made up. This is not exaggerated. It's been confirmed, and we want President Biden to take some action here.

SMERCONISH: Okay, a final response from each of you. Assemblywoman Fantasia, I'll begin with you Surely you have a theory. What is it?

FANTASIA: You know, there is no way that this is the result of hobbyists. These are not $30 drones you buy your kid off Amazon. We know that these are highly sophisticated, as evidenced even by our New Jersey State Police, Colonel Pat Callahan, where their helicopters went up to try to do surveillance of these. So we know that these are high sophisticated, they evade our current technology. And at this point, we have no time for a wishy-washy response from a wishy-washy governor and a wishy-washy president.

We need action. We need it yesterday. And I hope we don't have to wait until President Trump is sworn in mid-January. But my fear is that might be the case.

SMERCONISH: Assemblyman, what's your theory?

INGANAMORT: Well, I don't have a theory, but I have a hope and a prayer. You know, whether this is the good guys or the bad guys, to use simple terms. I hope and I pray that it's the good guys. Because if this is the federal government, America's military, conducting some type of an operation with some type of a national security rationale or imperative, I think most New Jerseyans would give them, you know, a lot of deference at this point. If that's not the case, and if this has some sort of malicious intent behind it's time to take them down.

SMERCONISH: Yeah, I keep saying as I'm watching the briefings, we can handle the truth. Just tell us what's going on in the skies over in New Jersey. I appreciate you both. Thank you each for being here.

Here's some social media reaction to the program so far. What do we have?

Terrifying. Either the entire government is useless or they are so used to lying.

You know what? I think that John Kirby, I have such high regard for him. I have always thought, like, this is a guy who I feel is telling it to me straight. And now I'm not sure what to think because I feel as if he's being put out there to tell us something. I mean, Trump's right. Trump is right. Tell us. If you know, tell us. And if you don't really know, then you must.

And I don't mean, you know, citizen vigilantes, I mean the government. Shoot some of these down and let's figure it out. Send them to Area 51 with everything else. That was a joke.

Still to come, your social media reaction to my opening commentary today, my conversation with Scott Galloway, and should ICE agents be allowed to make arrests anywhere. I want to remind you. Go to my website at smerconish.com, answer today's poll question. You ready?

[09:30:01]

Should immigration enforcement actions be constrained in areas such as schools, medical facilities, places of worship, funerals, and weddings? While you're voting, sign up for the newsletter. You'll get editorial cartoons from the likes of Steve Breen.

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SMERCONISH: You can find me on all the social media platforms, everything from Bluesky to Truth Social.

[09:35:01]

Kelly Ann -- when we normalize cold blooded murder we lose our civilized society. Murdering someone because you're upset over our health care system is not the answer nor does it count to bring awareness. This kid is sick mentally and snapped. Those cheering have lost their moral compass.

Yes. I mean, that's pretty much what I said in my opening commentary, right? And by the way, I said to Scott Galloway, there are two families that are suffering here.

My heart breaks for the family of the alleged gunman. There are reports, unconfirmed, but we've all been wondering. That photograph in the back of the taxi was so clear. How could his family and those in his orbit not have known? There are reports, unconfirmed, that mom did call law enforcement a day before he was arrested in Altoona, and said that, that could be my son.

I mean, I feel her pain. But the experience of walking to work this week on 54th Street and being at exactly that spot and saying, there's nothing here. Did no one, you know, bring a flower like we're used to?

It was really jarring. I don't know what I expected to see, but I didn't expect to see a vacant sidewalk. I just hope we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Not reward, nor glorify murder, but have a long overdue conversation about how we make it better.

In my own two cents that it's too complicated to get into an -- in such a short time period, but my own two cents is that we've got to reevaluate this model where so many Americans' health care is tied to their employment. You know something, I guess, coming out of the great depression, when they couldn't increase wages and consequently -- we're all David fighting against Goliath and our employers are in a better position to negotiate, but there's not an incentive for them to do so. We need to fundamentally rethink the entire model in this country.

Still to come, should ICE be able to arrest undocumented people at or near so-called sensitive locations? That's today's poll question at Smerconish.com. This is the way that I worded it.

Should Immigration Enforcement Actions be constrained in areas such as schools, medical facilities, places of worship, funerals, and weddings? When you're there, sign up for the newsletter. Jack Ohman, one of our editorial cartoonists, drew this.

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[09:42:04] SMERCONISH: Imagine ICE agents making arrests at your child's school or a family wedding. Well, President-elect Trump plans to make that a reality, according to NBC's reporting. The current policy began in 2011. It was by then ICE director John Morton. It stopped agents from making arrests in sensitive areas like schools, hospitals, places of worship, or at major life events like weddings or funerals.

The prospective new policy follows a recommendation in the influential document mandate for leadership 2025, the Conservative Promise, also known as Project 2025. In a section overseen by Ken Cuccinelli, former U.S. Department of Homeland Security official in Trump's first administration, the document calls for the elimination of policies that prohibit ICE personnel from operating in sensitive locations, arguing instead that the agency should rely on the good judgment of officers in the field to avoid inappropriate situations.

The Biden administration expanded the definition of sensitive areas to add places like playgrounds, homeless shelters, emergency response centers, and domestic violence shelters. NBC now reporting that the Trump administration, incoming, is vowing to eliminate these restrictions on day one claiming it will speed up deportations and empower law enforcement.

I want to know what you think. This is the basis of today's poll question at Smerconish.com. Should Immigration Enforcement Actions be constrained in areas such as schools, medical facilities, places of worship, funerals, and weddings?

Joining me now is ACLU lawyer Lee Gelernt, a leading public interest lawyer who has argued dozens of civil rights cases during his career, including in the Supreme Court of the United States. In recent years, he has argued some of the nation's most high-profile cases, including a national class action in which he challenged the Trump administration's practice of separating immigrant families at the border.

So, counselor, how big a deal is this? Does it come up routinely, or is this just something that we're discussing in the abstract?

LEE GELERNT, ACLU LAWYER: Well, I think that's -- that's the question. We're going to see what the Trump administration does. In the reporting is that they're going to get rid of this sensitive areas' memo. And we'll see now, if they start going after people at hospitals, at schools, you know, weddings, courthouses, that kind of thing. But if they do, I think that's a very big deal.

SMERCONISH: I can imagine some who are watching this mulling it over and saying, well, we don't afford that level of protection to others who are having a brush with law enforcement. Why would we do it for the migrant community?

GELERNT: Yes. Well, so I think two things. One is when we talk about this, we need to understand the scope of the Biden administration's policy and what other administrations have done. We're talking about people who are not national security threats, public safety threats, people who have recently crossed the border, who may have sensitive information. For all those types of people the memo says, you may go after them and arrest them.

[09:45:05]

So, we're not talking about that. What we're talking about is people -- the average migrant may have been here 30 years, contributed, doesn't have a criminal record. Should you go after them at a hospital? Should you go after them at the schools?

And I think there will be legal challenges. But beyond that, I think there's lines we shouldn't cross as a society -- as a society for humanity reasons but for public policy reasons. If someone has a contagious disease, you want them going to the emergency room. You don't want them not going because they fear being arrested.

If they're a witness to a crime and they're going to come testify, that puts someone very serious in jail with a serious crime you want them showing up as a witness. But if you're -- if ICE agents are going to be standing at the courthouse looking to arrest someone, then they're not going to show up to be a witness.

So, I think its bad public policy to say to migrants, wherever you go, we're going to be there. Whether it's the hospital, your child's school or a courthouse.

SMERCONISH: What about the site of a public demonstration such as a march, a rally or a parade? I mean, I can imagine that there will be demonstrations in opposition to Trump, the plan for mass deportation. And theoretically, then ICE would be precluded at an event like that from making arrests if they were appropriate. Meaning if there were individuals there who were wanted.

GELERNT: Yes. So, I think that is something that's not explicitly, as far as I know, listed in the in the Biden memo, at least. You know, this country has a cherished history of protest and the First Amendment. So, I think that raises serious concerns when you're going to inhibit First Amendment rights.

I don't know how the Trump administration is going to handle that, but I would be very concerned if the Trump administration is going to try and inhibit all protests.

SMERCONISH: In the current memo that which took effect by Alejandro, Secretary Mayorkas' signature on the Biden watch, I want to read one sentence. The fundamental question is whether our enforcement action would restrain people from accessing the protected area to receive essential services or engage in essential activities.

The mindset is one of the same behind sanctuary cities, which is you don't want people not reporting. You don't want people not calling the police, or seeking medical attention, et cetera, et cetera. Because there would be a larger societal cost. That's the thinking. You get the final word.

GELERNT: Yes, you're absolutely right to focus on that. I mean, you need balance in law enforcement always, not just for humane reasons, but for public policy reasons. If you're trying to convict a murderer and it's a migrant who saw the murder and is a witness, you want that migrant showing up at the courthouse to testify. So. there's always concerns you have to balance. And I think it's right to make those kinds of calls.

SMERCONISH: Lee Gelernt, thank you for your expertise. Appreciate it very much.

GELERNT: Thanks for having me.

SMERCONISH: Checking in on social media reaction. This is going to be really interesting to follow this issue. Really interesting to follow this issue.

Stuart -- oh, please. Cry me a river. Now we don't care, don't want to be hunted. Simple. Don't break the laws in coming here. You can say the same thing regarding other criminals. I just made that observation, by the way. How about the idea of caring about those who respect the law and do the proper thing in applying for immigration?

I did make clear, right, the exceptions that exist to this. Lest you all think that there's -- there's going to be someone wanted for murder or a potential terrorist. The Enforcement Action involves a national security threat. There's imminent risk of death, violence, or physical harm to a person.

Those cases would not be subject to this limitation by the current policy that exists. We shall see those first 100 days are going to be interesting. You still have time to vote on this. I don't know which way this is going to go.

Should Immigration Enforcement Actions be constrained? Should limitations be placed on ICE in areas such as schools and medical facilities, places of worship, funerals and weddings? Go to smerconish.com and vote right now. While you're there, you'll see some exclusive editorial cartoons like this from Rob Rogers.

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[09:54:01]

SMERCONISH: So, there's the result so far at Smerconish com, 29,833 votes cast. Should Immigration Enforcement Actions be constrained in areas such as schools, medical facilities, places of worship, funerals, and weddings? Seventy Thirty. I'm kind of surprised that it was so lopsided. Seventy percent say yes.

You should not have enforcement actions at, you know, a funeral or a parade or a kid's school, et cetera, et cetera. Yes, that surprises me. Seventy thirty surprises me. It's going to be very interesting to see if the reports are accurate -- accurate and the Trump administration decides that they're not going to be restrained as previous administrations have been.

Here's some social media reaction to today's program. What do we have? They are here illegally. How is there a safe place? Oh my God. They will not barge in and grab a student. I don't -- my own take on this is I'd rather there not be an arrest made at somebody's funeral, but a parade or -- what were the other categories?

[09:55:06]

Parade, demonstration or -- I can just see this. If mass deportations begin in earnest in the first 100 days of the new Trump administration, I can see that there will be social protest. So, ICE -- ICE would have to buy the current standard. Standby if they had knowledge that individuals who are protesting the mass deportations were themselves potentially subjected to them. They would have to standby and do nothing about it. That seems a bridge too far.

Real quick I spoke too long. One more. I'll make it really fast. What do we got?

Absolutely baffling situation. On one hand -- well, it's something for sure.

Yes. We'll see. That's the best I can do.

All right. Thanks for watching. I'll see you next week.

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