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Ukraine And European Allies Call For 30-Day Truce With Russia To Start Monday; Pakistan's Foreign Minister Says Pakistan And India Have Agreed To Ceasefire; Skilled Labor Debate: Trade Schools V.S. Traditional College. America First Versus The First American Pope. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired May 10, 2025 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:00:18]

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Michael Smerconish in Philadelphia. We have international breaking news. First out of Kyiv, President Zelenskyy and European leaders are calling for a 30-day truce with Russia starting on Monday. And we've also just learned of a ceasefire between Pakistan and India. CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson is in Islamabad. CNN chief global affairs correspondent Matthew Chance is in New Delhi, India and CNN Chief International Security correspondent Nick Paton Walsh is in Kyiv. We'll start with Nick Payton Walsh in Kyiv.

Nick, tell us how this all unfolded.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Important to stress this is a seismic moment in the largest land war in Europe since the fall 40s. Four of the largest economies militaries in Europe, France, Germany, U.K. and Poland, their leaders have come here, their significant and risky journey to Kyiv to stand alongside Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, to say to him -- alongside him that they will declare from midnight, we think from Sunday into Monday a 30-day unconditional ceasefire. And they expect Russia to honor that. They have said they have the backing of U.S. President Donald Trump. Indeed, a post -- picture was posted by a senior Ukrainian official of those four men around the telephone with the phrase historic moment. And they confirmed they rang Trump after they'd had their meeting to set out this particular proposal.

Well, if Russia does not agree to the European leaders with clear they have American backing as well for what French President Emmanuel Macron called, quote, "massive sanctions" against Russia that could potentially, said Zelenskyy, involve the banking sector, energy infrastructure as well. But I should point out we're into an extraordinary just over 30 hours now from this public announcement into which Ukraine now must manage what its armed forces do striking midnight Sunday into Monday, whether they fight back in self-defense or have to lay down arms for a specific period of time. We also are hearing that the United States is going to be assisting, if not partially in control of the monitoring of this ceasefire. So they'll have to upscale that capability exceptionally quickly with great quality and quantity to cover the hundreds of kilometers of front line that's exceptionally violent at the moment.

So a lot to do till but also most importantly, they have to hear from Moscow, who in the past have said that they would potentially support this in theory, but they wanted certain nuances to be answered. That really was called out today by these European leaders as a form of procrastination. They essentially want answer now on, or there will be consequences. But here's what Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We've agreed that since Monday, 12th of May, a full and unconditional ceasefire must start for at least 30 days. We together demand it from Russia. We know that the United States support us in this. The unconditional ceasefire means no conditions. An attempt to put any conditions is signaling intention to drag out the war and undermine diplomacy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALSH: It's an exceptionally high stakes moment. I should remind people that we are, in theory, still in the middle of a Russian unilateral ceasefire, which they declared, their critics say, to essentially make the victory parade we saw on Friday in Moscow go more smoothly. Ukraine says that's been violated hundreds of times. We've seen some of it ourselves near the front lines. That essentially that ceasefire will be extended by this 30-day proposal to which Russia has yet to clearly respond in any particular way.

Look, ultimately, I think this is a way of trying for the Europeans to seize the initiative here to be sure they don't lose the attention or focus or passion of the White House and trying to get a piece here. Trump is on board this particular initiative. And potentially, indeed, if it does fall apart, like some critics of Russia's military policy here say there are many suggestions they are simply reinforcing and building up for future offensives rather than contemplating slowing things down. But that will at least be clear in terms of evidence for the Trump administration. But an exceptionally high stakes moment here for this war.

They're calling a very short time frame for something that really hasn't been attempted before. A lot of political onus on these European leaders now, they're promising significant assistance for Ukraine if Russia does indeed violate this. And we're into a new chapter in this now three-year war. Michael.

SMERCONISH: Nick Paton Walsh, thank you for the report from Kyiv. Our fingers are crossed. Let's go now to Nic Robertson in Islamabad.

Nic, what's the latest?

[09:05:00] NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLAMATIC EDITOR: Yes, I was just talking to a source who was literally in the room where it happened, where Secretary of State Marco Rubio, I was told, played a massive role in bringing about this ceasefire, a ceasefire that multiple times today and even yesterday, because it was in the works yesterday, perhaps over the last 48 hours, as we've been reporting, Pakistan was sort of on a military pause to give a window for diplomacy.

What I understand from this source is that was blown out of the window early this morning when India attacked three air bases, one of them here in the capital, just on the outskirts of the capital, that, according to the source, Pakistan responded with a relentless, a massive barrage of missiles and rockets, they say, Pakistan says, into Indian military facilities, bases inside India, air bases, weapons storage, and along that disputed line of control in Kashmir against military bases there. They say that, this from the Pakistan perspective, their communications, how they were communicating with Secretary Rubio, that that really put India on the back foot. It didn't know what had happened. India, according to Pakistan, reached out to Secretary Rubio, reached out to the Saudis, reached out to the Turks, reached out to others to find a diplomatic off ramp, got engaged after that onslaught in diplomacy, but telling the mediators that they were going to go on a pause on the Indian side. And then, according to Pakistan, that didn't happen. There was another exchange of rocket fire that happened several times during the day today.

And it was only in the last couple of hours before this ceasefire came into effect, just about an hour or so ago, that there was enough of a pause to call it and say that this was real, that enough diplomacy and leverage have been put on both sides to get them to stop here. Now, the key issue for Pakistan going forward is water. India has still said it's cut off the water from those three vital rivers, from the mountains in Kashmir, vital to Pakistan, existential to Pakistan.

I said, what about that? And the source said, look, this is a ceasefire. Everything works out from that. But from the Pakistan perspective, they've been up all night. From the Indian perspective, they've been up all night.

There was a lot of tiredness. There was a sense that they just wanted to get this done. Otherwise, in the words of this source, it would have just spiraled into something much worse. It was now or never, if you will. It was going to get a whole lot worse.

So I think a sense of relief here, but a sense of whiplash, too, for what the country has been through in the past few days.

SMERCONISH: Nic Robertson, thank you for the report from Islamabad.

Now we go to India in New Delhi is CNN's Matthew Chance.

Matthew?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Hey, Michael. Sorry, having a few technical problems here. Must be the conflict. But look, I mean, it's an astonishing couple of hours actually, because I was listening to Nick Paton Walsh speak out of Ukraine there was about the proposal for a ceasefire there. That's been, or the demand for a ceasefire. That's been very long in coming. It's been more than three and a half years since the Ukraine war began. And of course, you know, to take a skeptical view, as Nick was pointing out, the Russians have not yet agreed to a ceasefire.

But over here on the Indian subcontinent with this standoff between India and Pakistan, it's not three and a half years. This latest conflict's only been going on for three and a half days. And so what Trump has got in his sudden, unexpected announcement of a ceasefire between the two countries is the quick victory that he very much wanted to have but couldn't get with Russia and Ukraine as well. But nevertheless, over the past couple of hours, less than that, even President Trump announcing on his Truth Social media platform that a ceasefire has been done between India and Pakistan. That follows, you know, a real upsurge in violence between the two nuclear armed neighbors.

Remember, early this morning, excuse me, early this morning, India launched unprecedentedly deep attacks inside Pakistan, airstrikes on Pakistani military bases, the deepest inside the country that India has struck for decades, really since the war between the two countries back in 1971. So extremely serious escalation there that led to a furious Pakistani response. They struck dozens of targets, not just in the disputed territory of Kashmir, but elsewhere in India as well.

And, you know, the fact that this was taking place between these two nuclear armed neighbors I think shook the international community and shook the United States in particular into action and basically forced diplomats from Washington to really get engaged and to bring the two sides together to get them to step back from the brink. Remember, it was only a couple of days ago that J.D. Vance, U.S. vice president, was saying that dispute between India and Pakistan, it's none of our business. That was -- those were the words he literally said.

[09:10:16]

And what we now understand from the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, is that actually there's been a day of intensive negotiations involving him and JD Vance speaking to the leadership and the military leaders on both sides of the divide India and Pakistan, finally getting them to talk and to agree to step back from the brink. Now there's going to be more talks to finalize this ceasefire. But you know, it seems that for the moment, the threat of a spiraling, escalating conflict between these two countries, India and Pakistan, thankfully, has receded, Michael.

SMERCONISH: Matthew Chance, thank you for the report from New Delhi.

Joining me now to react to all of this breaking news, CNN Senior Military Analyst Admiral James Stavridis, former supreme allied commander of NATO, partner at the Carlyle Group, a global investment firm. He's also an accomplished author. His latest achievement, "The Admiral's Bookshelf." Admiral Stavridis, can I say at the outset, it's a day like today

that makes me appreciate CNN because of the footprint and the ability to so quickly go from Kyiv to Islamabad to New Delhi and to cover all of this, dare I say very promising breaking news. Can we begin with Ukraine and Russia and talk about the prospect of what Moscow will now do?

ADM. JAMES STAVRIDIS (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Let's just stop for a minute and say how rare is it you and I both show up with smiles on our face to talk about the international system.

SMERCONISH: That's true.

STAVRIDIS: So --

SMERCONISH: Right.

STAVRIDIS: -- yes. And up front, I would score this as positives for the Trump administration who have put pressure in both these situations evidently according to recent reporting. In terms of your question, I think with 70 percent likelihood, the pressure is now truly on Moscow for the first time since the Trump administration came into office. And I think Putin is realizing his strategy is simply playing rope a dope back and forth, back and forth is not going to work. The 30 percent that makes me less encouraged is the fact that Putin is coming off a, a big deal, four-day visit with President Xi.

Could we now be seeing Russia, China align with the United States and Europe align, turning Ukraine into perhaps the ultimate proxy war between those two sides? Let's hope not. And let's be hopeful on this morning that Putin will wake up and smell the tea, so to speak, and take this ceasefire deal.

SMERCONISH: We all remember that Oval Office meeting between President Zelenskyy and President Trump and J.D. Vance, the vice president of the United States, and how that all turned out, the perception of many was that President Trump had been heavy handed with President Zelenskyy, so too, J.D. Vance. But in the reporting today, it seems as if the administration, the Trump administration, is sending a very deliberate message to Moscow to say to Putin, we're on board with the E.U. and with Ukraine, the ball's in your court. But if you don't take this deal now, there will be repercussions.

STAVRIDIS: That's exactly right. And that would be additional sanctions, possibly secondary sanctions, putting sanctions on anybody who even does business with Russia. All that could have a crippling effect ultimately on a Russian economy that's already simply on a war footing. So, there are levers, there are cards to play. I'm glad to see the Trump administration using them.

And final thought here, Michael, I think Putin, his military losses of troops are also going to be a factor in this thing. And last thought, look at the pictures of those European leaders kind of coming together. This is a good moment for Europe and its unity. That's a good thing for the United States as well. SMERCONISH: A final thought, Admiral Stavridis. One conflict that we're discussing is three and a half years old, the other is only three and a half days old. But I know from reading your recent piece at Bloomberg you had some very serious concerns of the escalating situation between Pakistan and India. Speak to that, please.

STAVRIDIS: History was on our side here. India and Pakistan have gone to war, war with troops and tanks and border crossings four times in 50 years. They've had a whole series of these kind of back and forth military events even in the last or so years. They've always managed to find a way to climb down. According to our reporting here at CNN, which is quite exceptional, which we just heard, Marco Rubio, secretary of State, I would say, quite appropriately, was right in the middle of this.

[09:15:08]

So, history on our side. Secretary of State leaning in. Pretty good day for diplomacy, Michael.

SMERCONISH: Nice to be able to have you here. Fingers are crossed. Two big breaking news stories that might really alter the world picture for the better. Thank you, Admiral Stavridis.

STAVRIDIS: Yes, let me just put -- well, let me put one more point on it before we do all those high fives. Remember two months ago we had a ceasefire where in Gaza between Hamas and Israel.

SMERCONISH: Good point.

STAVRIDIS: That went falling apart. Let's hope these two stay with us. I agree completely.

SMERCONISH: Thank you, Admiral.

Up ahead, if I can do the work, should we even go to college? Should our kids even go to college? And why even pay for it? We discussed that and the growing popularity of trade schools. Then, of course, the news story of the week was the election of Pope Leo XIV unexpected because many believed there would never be an American born pope.

Especially at a time when the American president has so rankled global conventional norms. But maybe that's exactly why he was elected pope. Check out this headline from today's "New York Times." "An American pope emerges as a potential contrast to President Trump on the world stage." The story notes the differences between Pope Leo and President Trump and then posits that some think that's exactly why he was selected by the College of Cardinals as antidote of sorts to Trump.

Go to smerconish.com and vote on today's poll question. Was the election of Pope Leo XIV, an American, a deliberate choice meant to contrast with President Donald Trump? Don't forget to sign up for the newsletter while you're there for smerconish.com for which Scott Stantis drew this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [09:21:03]

SMERCONISH: Seventy-five grand right out of high school and no college debt and you're thinking, what's the job? Athlete? Social influencer? Nope. Try welder.

That's the salary commanded by an 18-year-old who will soon graduate from Philadelphia's Catholic Father Judge High School. And he's not alone. All 24 graduating seniors in the school's welding program have job offers of 50,000 and above. Aidan Holland (ph) is the student with the $75,000 commitment from a defense contractor in New Jersey. They want him to be a nuclear submarine welder.

And these stories are not one offs. They're part of a reevaluation that Randi Weingarten, the head of the American Federation of Teachers, calls shedding the misperception some may still have of technical education as a dumping ground for students headed for low- skill, low-paying jobs. This is the new thinking. The world of education is in a state of flux. The three Rs now stand for rework, revamp and review.

And this thinking applies to both high school and college. And I don't mean the College of Cardinals. It's been long overdue and now accelerated by the role of artificial intelligence. A poll of 1,000 college students showed that almost 90 percent of them used the ChatBot to help with homework. And that was taken right after the launch of ChatGPT.

More recent research shows widespread use of AI in both high schools and colleges. The question today is not our students getting help from AI, but are they doing any of the work themselves? Thus we get the story of Chungin Roy Lee as told by New York magazine. A computer science major at Columbia, he was quite open about how he exploited OpenAI. He used it on almost all assignments.

He said 80 percent of his essays were AI generated. Quote, "I put on the finishing touches. I'd just insert 20 percent of my humanity." The essays might have been 20 percent Lee's, but he got 100 percent of the grade, and that was OK with him. As he explained, "Most assignments in college are not relevant."

Buddy adds, "they're hackable by AI." In fact, Lee launched an AI tool that helps students cheat their way through a job interview. Columbia put him on disciplinary probation. Lee notes that Columbia has partnered with OpenAI, which created ChatGPT, so why punish him? He predicts that it won't be long before using AI for homework won't be considered cheating.

And if AI can do all the work, then why even go to class? A recent Harvard Crimson article by Sandhya Kumar, Class of 2026, looks at the issue of students playing hooky, noting that Harvard has recognized there's a problem and now requires a certain level of attendance. Wrong answer, says Kumar. She says she pulls out her iPad or laptop to work on other assignments when the lecturer can't hold her attention. She recognizes missing class comes with a cost, but her analysis suggests it might be worth it. Check this out. Harvard's tuition $56,550 a year quote "Every class I miss costs around $117.81, plus the non-monetary cost of potential implications on my course grade. Who wants to waste $117 and forego a coveted A? The true cost of attending class isn't just measured in dollars, it's measured in time, energy and opportunity. Every once in a while, that $117.81 feels like a worthwhile trade-off for an extra hour to finish an assignment, prepare for an exam or recover from an all-nighter. And so I skip class."

Kumar adds that students skip out because they don't feel they're learning anything new. They can get what they need based on their own with class materials. So, if AI can do all the work and class attendance is unnecessary, then why even invest the four years to get a degree? The White House seems to support this position in its own way. President Trump recently signed an executive order that states, the government is no longer behind the one size fits all approach to education, which previous administrations promoted as college for all.

[09:25:04]

This new order is designed to modernize American workforce programs to prepare citizens for the high paying skilled trade jobs of the future. And so we've come full circle now with the Republican Trump White House sounding very much like the teachers union leader Randi Weingarten. Education making for strange bedfellows. And then again, the president may have his own reasons for supporting this reform, because in recent election cycles, education has become the single best predictor of political leanings. Consider that in the 2024 election, Republicans won 14 of the 15 least educated states.

Democrats won 14 of the 15 most educated states. Of course, it wasn't that long ago, and being a college graduate meant that everybody thought you had the world by the tail and they had advice for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to say one word to you. Just one word.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you listening?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I am.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Plastics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly how do you mean?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a great future in plastics. Think about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: But as we've seen, with the rethinking of the place of education and fresh out of high school welding jobs, the emphasis on college for earnings is changing. Mind you, the data still shows that college is the best bet in the long run. According to a recent study with Georgetown University, somebody with a bachelor's degree earns $2.8 million on average over their lifetime. A high school diploma will earn you $1.6 million. Of course, that's just the beginning of the calculus. For instance, engineering and business majors, they earn significantly more than those who get degrees in education or the arts.

At the same time, learning a skilled trade offers job security that you can't always find elsewhere. I remember a great bestseller years ago by Thomas Stanley and William Danko. It was called "The Millionaire Next Door." The surprising thesis, backed by a ton of research, was that if you want to find someone who's worth a million dollars, there's no need to go to Beverly Hills or Park Avenue. You can just look around your own neighborhood.

If a person has a steady job, is able to build up a business or a reliable service, and doesn't live a showy, flashy lifestyle, they'll be able to accumulate a surprising amount over the years. A compelling takeaway from "The Millionaire Next Door" is that many of the millionaires profiled they weren't doctors, they weren't lawyers, they weren't executives, they were skilled tradespeople, they were small business owners. And the authors found that a significant proportion of millionaires were self-employed in what might be considered blue collar or middle market industries. Think plumbers, think welders, electricians, contractors, pest control operators, these individuals often built modest businesses over time. They exercised strict financial discipline.

They reinvested profits rather than indulging in lifestyle inflation. Unlike some high income professionals who often live paycheck to paycheck in high status neighborhoods, these tradespeople, they lived well below their means. They avoided debt. They focused on wealth accumulation rather than status signaling.

So with all the discussion of education reform, one fact emerges, no matter your path, it's not just the learning you get, but what you do with it.

Joining me now, someone who knows a great deal about it, Angie Simon, who in 2021 started the Heavy Metal Summer Experience, a nonprofit program that exposes high school students to careers in trade such as welding, plumbing, piping. It's a free program with over 50 locations across the United States and Canada.

Angie, what happened to wood shop? What happened to metal shop? Tomorrow is Mother's Day. I think my mother still has the ladle that I made for her in metal shop. And somewhere I've got one of the business cards that I block style put together in wood shop.

ANGIE SIMON, PRESIDENT & CO-FOUNDER, HEAVY METALSUMMER EXPERIENCE: You know, Michael, that's the problem. That's where the issue is. I -- somebody asked me, how long do I want to run Heavy Metal Summer Experience? And I said, only until we can get wood shops and metal shops back in high schools. Right now, high schoolers don't know about the trades.

And that's the problem. They don't have a chance to experience what does working with your hands. And I think we need to get that back into our high schools. And our high schools need to respect the fact that there's a lot of other good paths to a career besides college.

SMERCONISH: Will you speak to the demand? Because I know you've got the data and you know what the situation is across the country, right? It's not just that we want to put these people through your program, there are jobs waiting for them.

SIMON: Oh, yes, absolutely. There are so many jobs waiting for them. I mean, right now in construction, we are short about 400,000 jobs and we have about 40 percent of our industry retiring in the next five to seven years. So being short already and then they're going to retire in our industry, there is so much opportunity for anybody that would like to be in the trades.

And as you had said earlier, many of the tradespeople come through the trades and they start their own businesses as well. Probably about 65 percent of our contractors within SMACNA, the Sheet Metal Contractors Association, are family -- are owned businesses by people that came through the trades. So, it's such a great opportunity for the students to come through the trades.

SMERCONISH: We're showing some video of your heavy metal workshop. One of your students said something that caught my ear and my eye. Can we run that tape and I'll ask Angie a question?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEJANDRA RIOS, 2021 HSME GRADUATE: There's too many people who don't know about the trades. And I'm glad that they're able to change that with this program.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: Alejandra says there are too many who don't know about the trades. And as I watched the video and learned more about this effort, I thought to myself, who do we need to reach? Do we need to reach these students, that would seem obvious, or really is the issue their parents?

SIMON: Yes. Yes, it's a little of both. And counselors to a certain degree and school districts. But I am surprised when we -- the parents are so surprised when they come to graduation from our camps to find out how much money a student can make. And the fact that they can be, if you join the union, you are getting trained with no cost to you and you're making money while you're doing it.

And they find out that they get pensions. They get benefits and everything else. They find out that they can make six figures. So, it's amazing how quickly the parents will change their tune and say, OK, maybe we don't need to go to college.

But we are also focusing on the at risk and underserved areas. And these are parents that really weren't sure what their kids were going to do, period. And they look so relieved to see that their kids are enjoying this, working with their hands and actually making projects. So, I know that we hit a little bit of a button here because all of a sudden we grew so fast. I mean, to go from 28 kids in two camps in '21. So, this summer we're going to have almost 900 students across the United States and Canada. Obviously, it's really needed.

And sadly, we're turning down kids from our applications. We have so many applicants for our camps --

SMERCONISH: I know that --

SIMON: Go ahead.

SMERCONISH: I know that a lot of parents, you know, hope that their son, their daughter will rise up and work with their hands as an orthopedist or a dentist. But the takeaway here is you can get that same level of satisfaction and earn a good living through the skilled trades. Final thought is yours for 20 seconds.

SIMON: Well, you know, we were talking about when tradespeople -- when I started college -- got out of college -- so four to five years of college and started work at Western Allied where I -- where I began, mechanical contractor. The pipefitters, who were the same age as I were -- was had already bought homes in the Bay Area, and I had just gotten out of school and I was just starting working.

And that's the part that is interesting. You start 18 years old in the trades and you -- by the time you're 25 years old, you have probably bought a house and even in the Bay Area. So, that's a final thought.

I mean, look at that opportunity. And actually, with technology today, construction is not the same construction that people think about, a lot of technology.

SMERCONISH: Angie, it's a great -- it's a great point. In the "Wall Street Journal" story that I was quoting from there was -- there was a contractor who does recruiting goes into high schools and he says, I'm not looking for the same person I was looking for 20 years ago. There's a technical proficiency and understanding of computers that is now essential to these jobs because they've gone high tech.

Thank you. Keep up the good work.

SIMON: Thank you very much, Michael. Appreciate it.

SMERCONISH: Social media reaction. From the world of X. What do we have?

College has become a four-year party that you happen to be able to get a loan for. The bottom line is if you can't monetize your degree, you shouldn't be able to get a loan for it. The taxpayer certainly shouldn't be on the hook to help you find --

I mean, I think Will makes a good observation about how there's this taxpayer role relative to the college degree that doesn't always apply to the trade schools. Many of us were raised -- I was raised this way, and it worked out fine for me. Raised to believe you got to go to college, OK? And all we're here to say is there are great jobs to be had that don't require a college degree.

The idea that at Father Judge, which is not far from where I'm seated, that employers are coming in to recruit the welders and starting some of them at $75,000 a year. I think it's fabulous. I think it's terrific.

Still to come, is the stage set for an America first versus American pope showdown? Cardinal Dolan offering this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: I don't think the fact that Cardinal Prevost was from the United States had much weight.

Will he want to build bridges to Donald Trump? I suppose, but he would want to build bridges with the leader of every nation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: And don't forget to vote on today's poll question at Smerconish.com. There it is. Was the election of Pope Leo XIV, an American, a deliberate choice meant to contrast with President Donald Trump?

While you're there voting, sign up for my newsletter. It's free. It's worthy. Jack Ohman sketched this for us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:39:27]

SMERCONISH: We now have an American pope, a phenomenon never before experienced in our nation's history, in the history of the papacy. Cardinal Robert Prevost, a Chicago born and, wait for it, Villanova graduate, how cool is that, now Pope Leo the XIV. He praised his predecessor, Pope Francis, as he stepped out onto the balcony of Saint Peter's for the first time as the world's 267th pope.

At the White House, President Trump, whose relationship with the late Pope Francis was marked by some disagreements and vastly different worldviews, highlighted the new pope's American roots.

[09:40:01]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. President, are you planning to meet the Pope in the future?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATE: I do. They've already called.

They have already spoken to us and we'll see what happens but again to have the Pope from the United States of America that's a great honor.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SMERCONISH: We'll see how long the praise from the top lasts. As attention quickly turned to a flurry of X posts from an account posted under Prevost's name that could be interpreted as disagreeable to some Trump administration policies.

Let's rewind to that terrible 2017 Las Vegas shooting tragedy. The account reposted this retweet from Democratic Senator Chris Murphy, calling for a stop to gun violence.

Twenty eighteen, a retweet completely distancing the Catholic church from the first Trump administration's immigration policies. Quote, "There is nothing remotely Christian, American, or morally defensible about a policy that takes children away from their parents and warehouses them in cages. This is being carried out in our name and the shame is on all of us."

Now we go to 2020. This same account addressed the death of George Floyd, the violence that erupted after that and called for unity, offering prayers to the Floyd family and a push to end racism.

In 2021, in the heat of COVID, a retweet in support of the COVID vaccine and everyone getting immunized. Now, we jump to this year, February, just before he was pope, we go to a post referencing a theological debate on immigration started by Vice President J.D. Vance. It says, quote, " J.D. Vance is wrong. Jesus doesn't ask us to rank our love for others."

And another tweet from the same account weeks later, also linked to an article critical of the vice president's immigration policies. And then most recently, in April, the account retweeted a post from a Catholic commentator who called out Trump and El Salvador's president for laughing about the deportation of Kilmar Abrego Garcia of Maryland.

Pope Leo's older brother, offering this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN PREVOST, BROTHER OF POPE LEO XIV: I think he sees the United States is headed in the wrong direction in terms of immigration, that this is a total injustice. These are people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: But there are indications that the White House and the new pontiff might not be fated for a complete standoff. J.D. Vance congratulated Pope Leo on Twitter, adding, quote, "I'm sure millions of American Catholics and other Christians will pray for his successful work leading the church. May God bless him."

We're learning this pope may even be more aligned with some Trump administration policies than had been Francis, for example, his critique of mass media. According to the "Washington Post," quote, "Leo in 2012 told bishops that media depictions of the modern family present a major challenge to the Catholic Church. Note, for example, how alternative families comprised of homosexual partners and their adopted children are so benignly and sympathetically portrayed on television programs and in the cinema." That's what he said at the time.

We're also learning that Pope Leo voted in four general elections and three Republican primaries. While we shouldn't take that as a full sign of the Pope's political leanings because in Illinois, the state he's registered, you're not required to register as members of a specific political party.

So, given all of this, are we seeing the early signs of a showdown pitting America first versus the first American pope? It all brings me to today's poll question at Smerconish.com. Was the election of Pope Leo XIV an American, a deliberate choice meant to contrast with President Donald Trump?

Joining me now to break it all down on how this papal and political relationship will play out. Former Democratic senator from Indiana, former United States ambassador to the Holy See under President Biden, Joe Donnelly. Mr. Ambassador, thank you so much for being here. What's your gut reaction as I walk through the presumed social media of the now pontiff?

JOE DONNELLY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE HOLY SEE: I don't think that he was elected as a response to Donald Trump. I don't think this was about Donald Trump. It was about the church and about who could be the best leader, who could -- who could follow Francis.

And I don't think there's any surprise in those tweets that you've talked about. Because, you know, President Trump is the president of the United States. Pope Leo is the holy father for the world. And so, his agenda and President Trump's agenda don't necessarily match up especially in areas of immigration where Pope Leo's preferential option, as the term is used often, is for the poor.

And his focus is to try to help that child who is most in need as well as somebody who's well off. And so, he has -- he has that perspective.

SMERCONISH: Take me into your last role as ambassador to the Holy See. What's the nature behind the scenes of how presidents and pontiffs deal with one another and through whom, I presume, you played that role on the watch of President Biden and Pope Francis?

[09:45:11]

JOE DONNELLY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE HOLY SEE: I did. For example, the G7. That was all -- a lot of government leaders was in June of 24 in southern Italy. And I was President Biden's teammate on that in the meetings with Pope Francis.

And so, the meetings are really cordial. There was a -- there was a deep friendship there. But both sides are fierce advocates for their countries. The Pope for the Vatican. President Biden and -- and President Trump for the United States.

And so, you agree on a lot of things, but there are some things you don't. And there's -- it's a very blunt discussion, a very upfront discussion. But you agree on so many more things than you disagree on.

SMERCONISH: Mr. Ambassador, how long would you think goes off the clock before there's a papal audience with President Trump? I know that when new presidents come into the Oval Office, everybody looks for a sign as to who will first be invited, where the president will take his or her first overseas trip. What's the calculus in a dynamic like this with Pope Leo and President Trump?

DONNELLY: I think if President Trump wanted to go there now they'd be happy to be with him. But I don't think that's the calculus for Pope Leo as to which meeting I'm going to have first or this or that.

But I do think to your point about a trip there'll be a message sent to where he goes first. And my guess is it will be to an area where the poor are struggling, where there are challenges and where his presence there can lend an incredible moral voice to try to help with the struggles that the people are having.

SMERCONISH: A few days, just a few days ago, those far more knowledgeable about papal politics than yours truly were all of the opinion there will never be an American pope, because there's already such a concentration of power in the United States. There's no way that the church is going to allow that to happen.

And you've already cast your ballot on my poll question today. Catherine, can we put it back up on the screen? Because I want to ask the ambassador about it again. So, I'm asking this was the election of Pope Leo XIV, an American, a deliberate choice meant to contrast with President Donald Trump?

You don't think, Mr. Ambassador, that in the Sistine chapel, among the college of cardinals, they were thinking themselves Trump has been such a worldwide disruptive force and in a way that on some issues, the church is at odds wouldn't it send a great message if, in fact, the next pontiff is also an American?

DONNELLY: Was it the primary thought? No. Their primary thought is about making sure the church finds their best leader. Would it have been part of the calculus at some point? Perhaps. But the thing you have to know about Pope Leo is if he wasn't an American, he probably would have been the top contender and people would have looked at him that way because he's such a good manager on doctrine.

Michael, what he has the ability to do is look to the left and to the right. They both are comfortable with him, and he's got that whole I'll give you 70 percent of something as opposed to 100 percent of nothing to both sides.

And then on top of that he has just done extraordinary in every job he's held. And so, they look at him as somebody who's -- who fills the bill. And the comments made about him because he served in Peru, served in the Vatican for many years as the head of the Augustinian order, is that he was the least American of the Americans. And so that was kind of like a permission slip to everybody in the room, I think.

SMERCONISH: A Villanova class of 77 graduate. Can you imagine? Huh? How cool is that?

DONNELLY: As a Notre Dame class of 77 graduate, I can assure you Notre Dame is very, very jealous of Villanova today.

SMERCONISH: Right. Jay Wright just became the second most famous. You know, Villanova person. Ambassador, thank you for being here. Appreciate --

DONNELLY: Thanks.

SMERCONISH: Go ahead. Finish.

DONNELLY: Thank you. I was just going to say and his degree was in math and physics, which blows me away.

SMERCONISH: Unbelievable. Yes. Yes, I feel intimidated already. OK. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador. Everybody else --

DONNELLY: Thank you, sir.

SMERCONISH: You still have time to vote on today's poll question at Smerconish -- I think I turned the ambassador a little bit at the end. I think he, all of a sudden, was open to the prospect of today's poll question. There it is. You already know what it is.

Make sure while you're there you subscribe to the newsletter at Smerconish.com. You'll get exclusive editorial cartoons like this from Rob Rogers.

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[09:54:21]

SMERCONISH: OK. There's the results so far, 35,929. Was the election of Pope Leo XIV, an American, a deliberate choice meant to contrast with President Donald Trump? OK. The yes votes, 62 percent. I'm in that category. It is so rare that I'm in -- I'm in the majority of any of my poll questions, particularly on Saturdays when I host for CNN. Very cool.

I -- and I'm really in the Joe Donnelly category, which is to say it probably was a secondary consideration. We've all treated it like it's a liability. Like, oh, they can't possibly select an American. And then you've got this great stellar by all accounts candidate.

[09:55:01]

It's like, and he's an American who sees the world differently than President Trump. Maybe it's a good thing.

Here's some social media reaction to the program so far. What do we have?

From my seat, Pope Leo was chosen to push back on Trump, but also to synthesize the conservative and progressive factions within Catholicism. Yes, I mean, the one word that you hear and I think I heard this from Cardinal Dolan, for whom I have great respect as well, bridge builder. Everybody says he's a bridge builder. And isn't that a good thing?

Another social media reaction. What do we have? And by the way, while you're getting that up, if I can just say on the issue of the impact of his Americanism on being selected as Pope. Consider Australia, consider Germany, consider Canada, consider the U.K., consider all the recent elections. There has been a Trumpian influence on all of them. So why not, you know, in the conclave?

OK. Quick reaction. Show it to me again.

All skills are equal, but some are more equal than others. Or so says the system that shames, trades and glorifies debt. A welder with no loans at a six-figure income might disagree.

Daniel K., all I can say is it's long overdue that we all stop pushing our kids specifically to college and instead say, hey, a skilled trade, good pay, good job.

If you missed any of today's program, you can always listen anywhere you get your podcasts. Thank you for watching. Happy Mother's Day. See you next week.

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