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State of the Union
Interview With Rep. Suhas Subramanyam (D-VA); Interview With Former Chicago, Illinois, Mayor Rahm Emanuel; Interview With Fmr. Gov. Chris Sununu (R-NH); Interview With U.S. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick; Interview With Rep. Rob Menendez (D-NJ); Interview With Rep. Bonnie Watson Coleman (D-NJ); Interview With Rep. LaMonica McIver (D- NJ). Aired 9-10a ET
Aired May 11, 2025 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN HOST (voice-over): Total reset. As imports plunge...
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That's a good thing, not a bad thing.
BASH: ... President Trump touts progress on international deals. Is his team making any headway with his chief adversary? Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick is next.
And flash point: a shocking arrest.
RAS BARAKA (D), MAYOR OF NEWARK, NEW JERSEY: I did not break any laws.
BASH: With the potential for more arrests to come.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is an ongoing investigation, and that is definitely on the table.
BASH: Could these three lawmakers soon find themselves in custody? They will join me ahead together.
Plus: head-to-head. Two politicians with a lot of experience and a lot to say.
FMR. GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU (R-NH): They want to break through the establishment.
RAHM EMANUEL, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: We cannot communicate a culture of permissiveness.
BASH: Former Ambassador Rahm Emanuel debates former Governor Chris Sununu ahead. (END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Hello. I'm Dana Bash in Washington, where the state of our union is wishing all the moms out there a very happy Mother's Day.
President Trump is trying to deliver this weekend on his promise to make great deals for the U.S. across the globe. He has emissaries this morning meaning for face-to-face negotiations with both China and with Iran. Overnight Friday, his vice president and secretary of state said they negotiated what looks to be a fragile cease-fire between India and Pakistan, while European leaders visiting Ukraine conferenced in President Trump to come to agreement on a cease-fire demand for Russia.
We start this morning with those trade talks with China. Last night, the president said Saturday's meeting had gone well with -- quote -- "many things discussed, much agreed to, a total reset negotiated in a friendly but constructive manner."
Here with me now is Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick.
Thank you so much for being here. I very much appreciate it.
I want to start with what President Trump said on social media, that there was much agreed to in negotiations on Saturday. What were some of the things that they agreed on in these talks in Switzerland?
HOWARD LUTNICK, U.S. COMMERCE SECRETARY: Well, first, I just have to wish you a happy Mother's Day.
BASH: Thank you.
LUTNICK: And what a great day to be alive, and I want to wish my wife a happy Mother's Day as well.
The team is in Switzerland meeting with their counterparts from China, and they are hard at it. There's a lot to accomplish. There's both a lot to take care of and get off the table, and they're working hard at it. At the end of the day, they felt good, the president felt good, and I'm going to leave it to them.
But it felt good yesterday. The president tweeted that out and TRUTHed that out. But things feel really good.
BASH: Well, he said even more than that, as you saw. The president said there was a total reset. So did something fundamentally change, or is he sort of saying that to try to encourage the talks to continue?
LUTNICK: Well, I'm leaving it to the trade team. They're there right now. They're in the room right now, so I'm just going to leave it to them to take care of that themselves. And -- but they felt good yesterday, and that was really uplifting.
What a day yesterday, cease-fire in India and Pakistan. How wonderful is that? Think of the lives that the United States -- J.D. Vance and Senator Marco Rubio got involved. The president was involved. How wonderful to cause a cease-fire all the way on the other side of the world? Wonderful, wonderful day for Mother's Day.
BASH: Yes, definitely a lot going on. Just one other question, and I completely understand where you are, that it's the secretary of the treasury who is over there. But do you have any sense, I know you're in touch with them, if China has made any concessions?
LUTNICK: Really, I want to leave it to the team to take care of that. I mean, this is really important for the United States. It's really important that China. Let's let the team take care of that. And they're hard at it right now, and everybody's rooting for them from both sides.
But I think we're optimistic that things will work out well.
BASH: OK.
As the secretary of commerce, I do want to ask about the fact that there are no ships carrying goods from China bound for the West Coast right now. President Trump said earlier this week that drops in imports is actually a good thing, because it's going to affect people's wallets and jobs.
[09:05:14]
Well, he said it's a good thing because it shows that the imports are -- that the tariffs are working. But, in reality, it's going to affect people's wallets and jobs, truck drivers, port workers, American consumers. So, my question for you is, how is that a good thing?
LUTNICK: Well, I think the point that the president makes with his tariffs is that America has a $1.2 trillion trade deficit. That means other people are selling us goods that -- more than we are selling them. And that's just not balanced. It's not fair.
We're losing $1.2 trillion a year, of which directly and indirectly to China. That's about a trillion dollars. China sells goods to Vietnam. Vietnam repackages them and sells them to us. So the idea is, the president wants balanced and fair trade, and tariffs are the tool to create balanced and fair trade.
It's just unsustainable for $1.2 trillion to be exported to the rest of the world, meaning our money is going to the rest of the world. It's building them up. And, over time, it's taking us down, and the president's here to fix it. So that's what he's trying to do with his tariffs.
BASH: And I understand what you're talking about with regard to sort of economic policy. But there's economic policy, and then there's how people in the United States actually feel and the immediate effect on them.
So, just to be clear, are you saying that ultimately fixing what the president sees as a problem, which he just described, is going to mean that the American people, whether they work at a port or whether they're truck drivers or whether they're consumers, they're just going to have to suffer in the short term, maybe even longer?
LUTNICK: No, no, no. Let's take a look at the U.K. deal we did on -- we announced on Thursday, right?
We opened the opportunity for Americans to export to the United Kingdom $5 billion more than they have ever had the right before. You had beef, ethanol, row crops, vegetables, fruits, cereals, sodas, machinery. I mean, just the list goes on and on.
So the idea for the president is, look, we published our rates on liberation day. Negotiate with us. Bring those rates down by opening your markets to Americans who can export. So what's going to happen is, we're going to have imports. Of course, our ports -- we are the consumer of the world. I mean, we consume $20 trillion with the stuff.
BASH: But that is stopping now.
LUTNICK: The world wants to sell us stuff.
BASH: But it's not happening right now because of the president's tariff policies.
LUTNICK: No, no, no. It's only stopping -- no, no, no. It's only stopping -- look, we are in a negotiation with China. We agree. It has stopped -- 145 percent on China, of course, that stops it. But that -- they're negotiating that right now.
That -- we are optimistic that that will open. But what the president's tariff policy is, is, let's open all the markets in the world that have been closed to us. Let's get that opportunity for Americans to export to them. Let's really, really help Americans export.
And, of course, those people who import are going to have great businesses. We are the greatest economy in the world. Everybody wants to come here. As the president likes to say, everybody likes to shop here with our consumers. And it's going to work out great. This -- the U.K. shows you how great it can really be.
BASH: Yes, but, as you well know, because you worked on the U.K. deal, which I will get to in one second, that's a very different kettle of fish than China and even some of the other countries that I know that you are trying to deal with directly.
So when it comes to -- again, I'm talking about American jobs and American consumers in the short term. We're heading into the summer. And it could mean, tell me if this is wrong, that a lot of the goods that Americans are used to either buying or getting easily will either be more expensive or hard to get.
We're talking about beach chairs, swimsuits, picnic supplies, fireworks. Is this something that Americans just need to understand is going to be harder to buy?
LUTNICK: Well, I think, look, the Chinese and our representatives are meeting now. So let's just leave what's possible with China to what happens on Monday, Tuesday, and next week.
But the rest of the world is open for business, right? Remember, we have a low tariff on the rest of the world while we negotiate. But our expectation is that these countries are going to open their markets, their tariffs are going to come down, the ability for us to export and grow our economy is going to be better than ever before.
[09:10:10]
That's why President Trump talks about a golden age. Of course, all these countries are going to come and sell their products to us. Of course, we're going to have our shelves full of wonderful products made around the world.
But we're going to make sure on their shelves that American products are finally given the fair treatment that they deserve. And I think what people forget...
BASH: Yes.
LUTNICK: ... is that we have been locked out of economy after economy after economy. And President Trump is going to break down those barriers and let us sell. Imagine this.
If we can let other countries accept our standards, then our small businesses can sell online to foreign purchasers. I mean, imagine we're not allowed to do that now. It's just not fair trade. And President Trump is on trying to make it fair trade.
BASH: You mentioned the U.K. agreement. You were the lead negotiator there, aside from the president, of course.
And it does -- you mentioned some of the aspects of it. But one other aspect is that it keeps in place a 10 percent across-the-board tariff on goods imported to the U.S. from the U.K. As you know, the cost of tariffs are paid by American consumers. We have been talking about this.
So should Americans be prepared?
LUTNICK: Well, I disagree with that, you know.
BASH: Well, OK. But many -- most economists, I would say, disagree with you on that. And we have seen it being passed off time and time again to the American consumer.
But, regardless of that, just on the policy, this is what I want to ask you about. Is the 10 percent tariff that we're seeing in the framework for the U.K. going to be in place for the foreseeable future?
LUTNICK: So, we do expect a 10 percent baseline tariff to be in place for the foreseeable future.
But don't buy the silly arguments that the U.S. consumer pays. Businesses, their job is to try to sell to the American consumer. And domestically produced products are not going to have that tariff. So, the foreigners are going to finally have to compete.
BASH: So, who's going to eat the tariffs?
LUTNICK: They're going to have to compete. What happens is, the businesses and the countries primarily eat the tariff.
Look, we have 25 percent tariffs that were set under President Trump's first term. I don't hear a single word, not a single word, about those tariffs. No consumers in America -- those were set in 2017 and 2018.
BASH: Well...
LUTNICK: No consumers in America sit here complaining about those tariffs. What happens is...
BASH: Well, prices have gone up for lots of reasons.
(CROSSTALK)
LUTNICK: The currencies -- oh, no, no, no. That's the -- don't talk about the Biden inflation. That's another whole gig. When we left, when President Trump -- in 2019 had the lowest inflation in history. So, you know that this works really, really well.
BASH: Let me ask...
LUTNICK: It works well. These countries and the businesses have to compete. They have to cut prices.
BASH: Yes.
LUTNICK: You have seen it. The Asians have said they're not raising their prices. So who's paying those tariffs? The governments and the companies. They want to compete in the greatest store in the world? They got to be competitive.
BASH: OK. But you well know that company after company, business after business have said that they're going to pass it off to the consumer.
I want to ask, because you are working on other deals, of course, many of them, outside of what has happened.
LUTNICK: Of course, so many, so many.
BASH: It is happening with the U.K.
Is that 10 percent tariff kind of a baseline in the way you're approaching these other countries that you're negotiating with?
LUTNICK: Yes. We will not go below 10 percent. That is just not a place we're going to go. We will, country by country, address their particular issues.
So, for instance, with steel and aluminum and aircraft parts, we said those could come into the country tariff-free, right? So Rolls-Royce engines could go on a Boeing jet that Boeing sells. And, of course, you saw that Boeing announced a $10 billion deal to sell those Boeing aircraft with Rolls-Royce engines to British Airways.
So that's an example how we're going to be flexible and we're going to be super smart country by country. But at least -- you saw the rates that were published on liberation day. Those countries can take those rates down if they open their markets to Americans to export. Let Americans get their stuff on these foreign governments and foreign consumer shelves and we will be better as a country.
I think what's happened is, we just have never felt the fairness of our ability to export. Finally, the president of the United States is on our side. And that's what you're going to see in the U.K. and then country after country. We're going to announce, like we did with the U.K., how many tens of billions of dollars of new opportunity the president is negotiating for American small businesses and medium- sized businesses to sell their products overseas.
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BASH: Yes.
LUTNICK: That's the golden age that's coming.
That's the golden age that's coming. And everybody else is going to build in America to get around that tariff. Remember, there's no tariff if you build it in America.
BASH: The entire world is hoping that what you are saying does come true and waiting for the next step.
I also want to wish your wife a happy Mother's Day, four kids. That's pretty awesome.
LUTNICK: Thank you. Thank you.
BASH: Thank you, Mr. Secretary.
LUTNICK: Thanks so much, Dana.
BASH: A stunning new threat from the Trump administration. The three lawmakers who could be facing arrest will join me.
And a clash of ideas. Two key figures in their parties are here for a head-to-head debate live.
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BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.
The Trump administration says they may arrest three Democratic lawmakers after a chaotic scene outside an ICE detention center in New Jersey that already led to the arrest of Newark's mayor. Those lawmakers are under threat of arrest. They are here with me now. You see them, Democratic Congresswoman
Bonnie Watson Coleman, Congresswoman LaMonica McIver, and Congressman Rob Menendez.
Thanks to all three of you for being here.
I'm going to start with you, Congresswoman Watson Coleman. The Department of Homeland Security's spokeswoman was on CNN and said that potential charges for all three of you are -- quote -- "on the table." Have you heard from anyone at DHS that you might be charged or arrested?
REP. BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN (D-NJ): We have not heard anything. We have only read what everyone else has read. We have no idea why they would even suggest that, because we didn't do anything.
So, no, we have no idea what they had in mind, other than to create an environment of intimidation just by claiming that perhaps we might be subject to arrest. But there's no reason for it. Nothing happened, other than the chaos that they created themselves. If anything, we were pushed and shoved and found in a very vulnerable situation for the three of us.
We went there to do a legal oversight visit that we're allowed to do, permitted to do under the law. And ICE delayed us, tried to dissuade us, disregarded us. We were there an hour-and-a-half before the mayor came. And we went out there to see what was happening when the mayor was there.
Then the mayor was asked to leave the space. He left the space willingly. And the next thing we know, ICE is going to arrest him. And they arrested him for trespassing on public property, which is absurd.
BASH: Congresswoman McIver, I want to go back to some of the footage.
We were looking at some. And I want our viewers to see that you are the woman in the red blazer as we show them. The DHS says that -- obviously, that there were chaos, that maybe you were trespassing. You can talk about that. But the DHS also says that, in their words, you were body-slamming an ICE officer. Is that what we're looking at?
Is that what happened?
REP. LAMONICA MCIVER (D-NJ): Absolutely no. I mean, I honestly do not know how to body slam anyone. There's no video that supports me body- slamming anyone.
We -- as Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman said, we were simply there to do our job, there for an oversight visit. And what you're watching in a video -- and we don't have all of the bodycam and we hope that all of the bodycam is released. It was a very tense situation.
It unfortunately did not have to be like that. They created that confrontation. They created that chaos and then ultimately went to arrest the mayor of the largest city of New Jersey, who is my mayor and my constituent? And it was very difficult to watch that happen. But, absolutely, I did not body-slam anyone.
BASH: Congressman Menendez, as we saw there, there was a lot of shoving, a lot of shouting going on. It got physical. How did this situation escalate in the first place? And is there anything about what happened looking back and looking at that video that you might regret about how it played out?
REP. ROB MENENDEZ (D-NJ): Yes, I appreciate that.
I think there's a lot of opportunities for DHS, for ICE to de-escalate the situation. They chose not to. There's three House members there, the mayor of the largest city. As you can see in all the video, and this is important, they had over 20 armed ICE, HSI officers.
They were heavily armed. They were -- their faces were covered and they were wearing no identification. So this is who they chose to have come engage with the mayor of Newark and three elected members of the House of Representatives.
As Congresswoman Watson Coleman said, the mayor had gone on to public property. He had de-escalated the situation. We were all on the other side of the fence, on the -- let's just call it the private side of the fence. The mayor was on the public side. Someone there from HSI got a call.
And what happened next was, they reengaged with the mayor. They went on to the public side. And that's where they arrested him. So there were so many instances where this could have all been de-escalated, but it was squarely in HSI, ICE's court. They chose not to. They made this a violent scene that we were unfortunately all a part of.
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And it's something that should really shock all Americans.
BASH: And this was an attempt -- you were doing an event there, but you were also trying to go forward with part of your job in Congress, which is oversight.
Were you able to get any of that oversight actually done?
Congresswoman LaMonica McIver, I will send that to you.
MCIVER: Yes, we actually were. I mean, that's why I find it to be appalling that they said we were trespassing, because how are we trespassing and then you offer us a tour at the end?
Which is the reason why we were there in the first place, to have a tour of this facility that had just opened up on May 1. It had over 100 detainees. We were getting reports prior to our tour that children were there. We did not know the status of the facility or the status of the detainees. And so that is why we showed up there to do our job as members.
New Jerseyans count on us to do our job. Immigration has been something that's in the back doors -- in the backyards of New Jersey, and it's our jobs to make sure everything is running properly at this facility. So we were able to get a tour towards the end of all of that commotion, all of that chaos. They took us on a tour, offered us a soda in the midst of doing this, never apologized or said anything about the confrontation and the chaos that they caused outside.
But we were able to get in, speak to detainees, check out the facilities, and make sure everything was OK there.
BASH: The tour -- Congresswoman Watson Coleman, just to be clear, the tour came after that confrontation?
WATSON COLEMAN: The tour came after the confrontation, even though we were there almost two hours before the confrontation took place, but ICE kept giving us the run-around and kept saying that they needed to talk to someone else.
So, finally, when we saw that all of the hierarchy from ICE in the state of New Jersey was on the premises, we were ready to then do the tour. But then this ensued, this conversation they had with the mayor. We were right there on the site with him when they asked him to get off of the property.
He willingly moved, quietly moved with dignity and respect, and then chaos ensued when someone on the phone above the leaders of ICE who were with us at the facility instructed them to go into -- go out of the facility, go to the private property, and lock the mayor of the largest city in the state of New Jersey up.
That's absurd. That's un-American. That's scary. That's determination to intimidate people in this country. And we fear for the safety and security of everyday families just trying to go about their lives. If they can do this to three federally elected officials with the authority to come and do their job, and they can then also lock up the mayor of the largest city in the state of New Jersey who is on public property, I understand the fear that I keep getting information on.
People just are afraid of this un-American hyperactivity, this weaponization of law enforcement, and the consistent lying at all levels to try to cover up for the wrong and the unlawful activities that ICE did on that day.
BASH: A lot of unanswered questions here. Appreciate the three of you coming on together today to try to shed a little bit more light on it.
Thank you so much.
WATSON COLEMAN: Thank you.
MCIVER: Thank you so much for having us.
BASH: Coming up next, a head-to-head debate on the big issues, the challenges for the United States, what comes in the next 3.5 years of Trump.
Rahm Emanuel, Chris Sununu, you see them there. They will have that debate next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:33:17]
BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.
Something a little different now. The election last November revealed a bitterly divided America. So what next?
Here with me now for a STATE OF THE UNION debate is former New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu and former Chicago Mayor, White House chief of staff and Ambassador to Japan Rahm Emanuel.
Thank you both for doing this.
Governor Sununu, I want to start with you because I do want to talk about the president's tariff policy. And the question has been, first and foremost, whether it will even help long term, but in the politics of the short term, as you know, I was in New Hampshire last weekend, heard directly from the owners of the Colby Inn there. They're getting hammered by Trump's trade policies.
So the question is, how long do you think small business owners like the ones that I met in New Hampshire are going to be bearing the brunt of this?
SUNUNU: Yes, the clock is definitely ticking. I think they got at two months at most. Maybe even it's more like six weeks. So they have to start putting these deals together and give a couple of things, the market confidence to know that there's a pathway here.
And the U.K. agreement, while very general in broad strokes, definitely sets the groundwork for some of the future agreements there. I think we got to see some more in Asia. And I will let the ambassador speak to that, what's happening in Vietnam and Japan and those other countries.
But, yes, the -- a lot of these business owners have about a month to two months of inventory before the true inflationary effects of this could hit. And that could be a few percent up in a tick up or empty shelves. I think empty shelves are the bigger fear right now, if you see Target or Walmart going without.
So the China piece at the end of this is really, really important. It sounds like they made some headway yesterday, but they got about six weeks to really give the market and some of these small businesses confidence that it's not going to drag them down.
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BASH: Ambassador?
EMANUEL: Well, look, first of all, I think that the entire tariff kind of efforts by the president have been exposed by the public as -- because you can see it in the consumer expectation on inflation. It's one of the highest levels in a decade. So they immediately know that the president did a bait and switch. He
promised to deal with inflation. The first thing he does is raise inflation and it actually affects our 401(k)s. So I don't see any good politics for the president out of this tariff policy.
Second, as it relates to China, I'd like to remind everybody, his first term, he said, I have this great trade deal with China. It turned out to be an entire bust. So I'm very skeptical about what's going on right now in Switzerland.
And I think you have not only a bad tariff policy. I happen to think, against China, we are in a cold war related to science and technology. I think what the president's doing in cutting funds for major researchers across our university system, our public universities, our private universities, it is the envy of the world of what we have in the United States from our universities, from new innovations, new entrepreneurs, new products, new innovation, our research and development.
We are literally killing the goose that's laid the golden egg. So I think the entire economic strategy is actually built around a tariff policy that is costing the American people more both on the short term, and then when you look at what we're doing on research and development at our universities and the attack on our universities costing us in the long-term battle against China.
And I have, as I said, a lot of doubt about the China deal, given what happened in the first term. And I'm actually to compliment the American people. They have figured out the fallacy of the president's economic policy here, that it basically doesn't add up. You can't talk about the price of Greenland and leave the price of groceries rising.
BASH: Yes.
Governor, anything you want to say about that?
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: Yes, I would just say what's really interesting, the last couple months have had really strong jobs reports. So people are still getting hired at pretty aggressive numbers over and above expectations. Inflation itself is still incredibly low. It's at 4.2 percent.
But it's all about the expectation, right? And the consumer expectation, what's going to happen as you go into the summer months, where people want to spend more? I think you're going to see discretionary spending really come down. Places like Las Vegas and places in Florida and resorts, things like that are really getting crushed right now because everyone's kind of holding on to their cash.
But, again, you have got to be able to take a few bumps to get a better long-term strategy here. I'm not a huge tariff guy, but if we can get a better deal with China -- and I think everybody wants that, right? China does kind of screw us over here. So if we can get a better deal and take a few lumps in the short term, if you can get that long-term benefit.
But, obviously that's very -- we have got to see where it all pans out.
EMANUEL: Dana, Dana, one is, when the governor of New Hampshire was governor, he supported the universities in his state because he knew they were economic engines. What we're doing is destroying our own economic engine, our own innovation.
I compliment the governor for what he did. Second, as it relates to China, there's a -- you should be more focused and strategic. Where we are on science and technology against China, we should be very much, as somebody who worked on this, on dealing with export controls, so they're not stealing and doing the intellectual property and economic espionage that they practice.
But where they are on toys and other things, they're not the same thing as it relates to economic strategy and long-term growth for the United States. And you cannot treat everything as a nail and all you have is one hammer. And there's no subtlety, strategy or any effort by this administration discrete.
China is a country that is built on an economic model of economic espionage, intellectual property theft, where they then use the power of the state to undermine. Being focused on how to approach that shows in the fallacy of the first term, where President Trump failed in that trade negotiation. And I have a lot of doubts about what's happening right now in Geneva.
BASH: What do you think about the universities and the point that the -- this kind of the I.P., that the ambassador is making?
SUNUNU: Yes, it's a good point. Yes, it's a good point.
There's two issues there. First, you...
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: ... against Harvard, right?
(CROSSTALK)
EMANUEL: That's a good point. It's just perfect, Governor.
(CROSSTALK)
SUNUNU: Well, look, what's happening to Harvard...
(CROSSTALK)
EMANUEL: I couldn't agree more with what the governor just said.
(LAUGHTER)
SUNUNU: Well, look, what's happening to Harvard is the administration is saying, look, you didn't pull back on the antisemitism. You have no accountability and controls in your system, and the government doesn't have to fund that.
On the other side, and this is where Rahm has a very good point, are those NIH funds. And those really are at the heart of research and development that keep America at the head of the world. Those funds aren't going to be cut. They are going to be probably reallocated. And they're going to -- and the universities that use 60 percent of those funds for overhead and salary to professors, they're going to say, no, no, no, you can only use 30 percent or 40 percent.
So they're going to find some sort of negotiating bound there, because right now those funds don't have rules like all the other government contracts do. So I totally get we don't want to cut those funds completely, but there have to be better rules on it so these universities aren't just wasting a lot of that money.
[09:40:05]
Some play by the rules. Some do very well with it, and some just kind of -- again, 60 percent to overhead and salaries, as opposed to the research and development of those -- the scientific progress and the health care products that come out of these systems. We just want to make sure the money goes where it's supposed to.
EMANUEL: Dana, there's not a cancer drug, HIV drug, there's not a robotics innovation, there's not an A.I. innovation, a quantum computing innovation that our universities are not on the cutting edge, where China literally tries to steal those ideas, because that is -- one of the things I learned as ambassador in Japan, how you -- I have always said it, lip service to it, but how unique our research and development is at our universities, our greatest export, our greatest technological advantage.
We are in a cold war against China on the cutting-edge technologies, and we're literally killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The tariffs is one thing. It's a shiny fight, et cetera. It's not a trade policy. It's not an economic policy. If anything, you're treating allies as if they're adversaries. It's totally wrong, in my view, and it's going to adversely affect the American consumer, and they know it.
But on the long-term economic competitiveness of the United States, the only country doing real damage to the United States is the Trump administration. And the governor, who did a lot to support research in the universities that built the -- at both community colleges and the public university, understands how fundamentally wrong this is to the long-term economic competitiveness and short-term economic competitiveness of the United States.
BASH: Real quick, Governor.
SUNUNU: Yes, look, it's great to see Rahm Emanuel agree with Elon Musk, because Elon's been a huge champion of that as well.
(LAUGHTER)
SUNUNU: So we can all find points of agreement. BASH: Before I let you -- first of all -- yes.
EMANUEL: There's no corporation, big, small or medium, that doesn't benefit from what comes from our universities. It's just that simple.
BASH: We have so many other topics that I want to talk about.
SUNUNU: That's true. That's true. But...
BASH: Please come back.
But today is Mother's Day. So, before I let you go, I want to send love. First and foremost, let's just start with, Rahm, your wife, Amy, the mother of your children.
SUNUNU: Thank you.
BASH: Your mother, Marsha, 91 years old, we see her there.
EMANUEL: Yes.
SUNUNU: Beautiful.
BASH: And, Governor Sununu, to Valerie, the mother of your children.
And there we see your mom, Nancy, who you lost in the fall. And we want to -- we know this is probably a very hard day for you and your family. So we want to wish you well and all the best to all of you.
SUNUNU: And you, Dana.
EMANUEL: Thank you. Thank you.
SUNUNU: You're a mom.
BASH: Yes, I am.
SUNUNU: Yes.
BASH: Proudly so.
SUNUNU: And no travel sports today.
(CROSSTALK)
EMANUEL: Dana...
BASH: Go ahead.
EMANUEL: Dana, if you give us -- if you give me your number, I will make sure my mother calls you and gives you advice on what you should do.
BASH: OK, thank you.
EMANUEL: It would be a great relief to me. BASH: That's adorable, but you have my number, and you know that.
(LAUGHTER)
BASH: All right. Bye. Thanks to you both.
And one of the president's closest advisers says the White House might suspend habeas corpus. We will get into what that means in every way, particularly in practical terms, when my panel joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:47:43]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, the Constitution is clear -- and that, of course, is the supreme law of the land -- that the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus can be suspended in a time of invasion. So it's an option we're actively looking at.
Look, a lot of it depends on whether the courts do the right thing or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.
A pretty stunning comment from a top White House aide, Stephen Miller, on suspending habeas corpus, which is the right of an individual to challenge the government's right to detain them.
My panel is here now.
Xochitl, I'm going to start with you. Your most recent government job was at the Justice Department. Can you talk about the implications of this possibility?
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, well, this is shocking.
As you have seen in the administration, they have disagreed with a number of court orders involving immigration. And what this would essentially do is that anyone believes that if they were unlawfully detained, then they could -- they would be able to petition in court. What this would take away is essentially -- it would allow the administration to go ahead and detain anybody that they want, even if it is unlawful.
And so you hear the administration a lot, especially in the arrests happening in Newark with the Newark mayor, that no one is above the law. But this would actually allow this administration to be above the law. They have disagreed with court after court after court. They have slammed courts. And as you heard Stephen Miller just say right there, this would only apply if courts don't actually do exactly what they want.
That's not how the system works. Everyone has a right to due process. Everyone has a right to petition in court. And this would take that away, which means that you would have chaos in terms of deportations and detentions.
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, he did say whether the courts do the right thing or not on the current cases. And so I think you have a case here of the White House working the refs.
This is the White House trying to coach -- coax and coach the courts on the current cases they have suspended. And it kind of reminds me of when Joe Biden's student loan program got struck down by the Supreme Court. He said, nothing will stop me from doing this, even the Supreme Court.
(CROSSTALK)
HINOJOSA: But he doesn't defy court orders. And Trump is on the line defying court orders, which some would say he may have on -- especially on the event of El Salvador man. He has not returned him when he was ordered to do so.
And so you already have an administration who is already defying court orders on immigration and this would only make things worse.
[09:50:03]
TODD: Not yet. Not yet. That case was remanded back to the Fourth Circuit.
They have not yet -- every time on this network, we keep saying they're going to, they're going to, they're on the edge of. They haven't defied court orders. They're appealing these cases.
HINOJOSA: We're just on 100 days, so I'm not...
TODD: They're appealing.
BASH: Let me bring the congressman in.
Do you want to weigh in on this, particularly, I mean, the habeas corpus situation, but also the three colleagues that you have from New Jersey who I spoke with earlier?
REP. SUHAS SUBRAMANYAM (D-VA): Yes, let's take a step back of what's going on in the world, right? We have got a DOGE going around taking people's private data and being able to track them down.
Then we have got ICE going around putting bags on people's heads, sending them to El Salvador, even if they're here illegally. And now in a situation like this -- I mean, I had a constituent who was a Trump voter, American citizen, who was detained. So if you take away habeas corpus, what's going to happen to American citizens in some cases? They won't have the ability to defend themselves and prove that
they're even citizens. I know Democrats and Republicans who are concerned about this. And this is not constitutional, and this is bad for our democracy and bad for our country.
BASH: What does the polling tell you, particularly for people who voted for Trump?
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I mean, right now, this is the issue where Trump's base is still the most behind him.
You will see weakness in polling around things like the economy or tariffs or other things that Trump has done. But this is one issue where he feels very empowered. Now, it's interesting. Every time he gives an interview where he's asked about, are you going to defy a court order, he's clearly very sensitive about this topic. He always says, I'm not going to defy a court order. I'm not going to defy a court order.
But it's clear that his administration wants to go up to the very limits of what the law will allow to do what he believed his base sent him to do, which is to enforce the immigration laws of this country and get what he viewed as a crisis of illegal immigration under control following the Biden presidency.
SUBRAMANYAM: I couldn't help notice too that they also mentioned -- DHS mentioned they're going to go after members of Congress as well.
And I just look at this and I say, as a member of Congress if, I'm going to be put behind bars for trying to stand up for the constitutional rights of my constituents, for standing up for civil liberties, like, bring it on, because this is ridiculous what they're doing right now.
TODD: You know, everybody -- both sides are benefiting from this politically.
The people who are liberal congressmen in safe districts want this fight with Trump. But you notice there was one New Jersey congresswoman who wasn't there at Newark yesterday. That's Nellie Pou, because she represents a district that Trump won. And she's been to the border with these same group of members.
So both sides are sort of saber-rattling. And I don't think in the end that the president is going to get rid of habeas corpus. And he shouldn't. And he shouldn't. But he should keep the focus on immigration because it's working. We're seeing less than 10,000 people across the border illegally every month. Under Joe Biden, it was 150,000.
So he wants this fight. He'd rather have a fight over this than other things.
BASH: I'm going to make a hard turn to the issue of taxes, because this coming week we are going to see a formal proposal from House Republicans on this big, beautiful bill that we keep hearing about.
And so the question is at this point -- there are lots of questions, but one of the most intriguing questions, and I will start with you here, is on taxes, whether or not, as the president floated to the House speaker, the taxes on the most wealthy Americans should go up in order to help pay for a lot of things or whether that is anathema to enough Republicans.
TODD: I think Republicans need to be very clear that we have to pass this bill to stop the Democratic tax increase. Democrats are going to vote for every Americans taxes to go up because they're going to vote against this bill at the end of the year.
The standard deduction is going to double. The child tax credit, if you're taking that right now, you get $2,000 per child. It's going to drop to $1,000. We have to draw a really bright line and say Democrats want taxes to go up. We don't.
HINOJOSA: I mean, I think that what's also happening is there are massive cuts to Medicaid and food assistance and things that are critical in our in our country.
And I think that you will -- you are already seeing prices go up for Americans across the board, small businesses, as you were talking about, in New Hampshire, for example, already increasing prices. And you can't blame Democrats for that. That is a result of Donald Trump's tariff policy.
And so I think that Democrats right now are really hammering these cuts to Medicaid, these cuts to food assistance, all these things are going to impact Americans while Donald Trump said he was going to bring prices down.
BASH: And, Congressman, one of the political arguments in letting those tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans expire is to take the issue away from you and your fellow Democrats.
SUBRAMANYAM: I mean, what Xochitl said was right.
I mean, the reality is, they are trying to take away people's access to care in order to give tax cuts the very wealthiest corporations, many of whom didn't even ask for it. I mean, the proposals I have seen now are actually lowering the middle-class tax cuts. We haven't heard anything about protecting the state and local tax deduction.
The reality is that this is policy that is very unpopular. And that's why, instead of voting on Medicaid cuts this past week, we voted on the Gulf of America, Gulf of Mexico bill, right? That's their priorities right now this past week. That was the last bill I voted on. And so that's where we are right now.
And they're going to continue to see this is unpopular with the American people.
[09:55:00]
SOLTIS ANDERSON: Keeping taxes low on the middle class is one of the top priorities for this Republican Congress.
The challenge is, how do you pay for it and where is the give-and-take here? And this is one of the things that has been really fascinating about the Trump era of the GOP, is, on the one hand, he's a very powerful, unifying force. He can get Republicans to vote for a lot of things that might be testing their ideological boundaries.
On the other hand, he's also created a new party with voters who don't necessarily mind raising taxes on the wealthy. And so it has created a very interesting dynamic within the GOP.
BASH: Thank you all for coming in, especially on Mother's Day. Happy Mother's Day to both of you and to the mothers of your children.
HINOJOSA: Thank you.
BASH: And it is my favorite day of the year.
I do want to wish all of the moms in the STATE OF THE UNION family a happy Mother's Day, our executive producer, Rachel Streitfeld, senior producer Cassie McNamara, our friend Jennifer Tapper, Angelica Flores (ph) here in the studio.
And, of course, my own mother, Francie, the smartest, kindest woman I know, thanks for always being there, being a role model for me as a parent. I love you, Mom.
And thank you for spending your Sunday morning with us.
Fareed Zakaria picks it up next.
