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State of the Union

Interview With Sen. James Lankford (R-OK); Interview With Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-MD). Aired 9-10a ET

Aired December 21, 2025 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:00:36]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST (voice-over): Blacked out. The Justice Department releases some of the Epstein files, revealing very little, while redacting a lot.

REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): It is defying the Congress.

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): They don't want people to be held accountable.

HUNT: Are they ignoring the law? I will ask Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin ahead.

Plus: out of office. Congress heads home for the holidays without addressing the health care crisis.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is not the Republicans' fault. It's the Democrats' fault.

HUNT: As the GOP fears a midterm backlash, can they come back with a plan? Republican Senator James Lankford joins me.

And off- message? From dismissing economic concerns...

TRUMP: You talk about affordability.

HUNT: ... to attacking a murdered Hollywood icon.

TRUMP: I wasn't a fan of his at all.

HUNT: ... and adding his name to a national institution...

TRUMP: I was honored by it.

HUNT: ... is President Trump out of step with Americans' priorities? Our political panel breaks it all down.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HUNT: Hello. I'm Kasie Hunt in Washington, where the state of our union is redacted.

After months of dragging its feet, the Trump administration finally released the Epstein files, or some of them, anyway. On Friday night, the Justice Department published thousands of files related to the deceased sex offender and alleged sex trafficker, convicted sex trafficker, Jeffrey Epstein., but it fell far short of the comprehensive release that's been mandated by Congress.

Congress overwhelmingly passed a law last month, signed by President Trump, requiring the Justice Department to turn over all of its files on Epstein within 30 days. What was released shed little new light on Epstein's crimes, with some of the most sought-after documents completely covered by black ink or missing entirely.

One of the few photos of President Trump that was included in the release subsequently disappeared from the DOJ's Web site. That has led some Democrats to allege a cover-up.

Joining us now is the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, Congressman Jamie Raskin.

Congressman, thank you so much for being with us this morning.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): You bet.

HUNT: It's great to see you.

Is this a cover-up?

RASKIN: Well, sure.

I mean, if you read the statute, the only things that are allowed to be redacting are related to child sex abuse, physical abuse, ongoing investigations, which they say there are none, and national security. So how can you block out an entire document? It makes no sense.

And, remember, Trump opposed the legislation up until the very end, when he could read the writing on the wall. Then he said, oh, I'm for it. They have decided they're just going to try to obstruct the implementation of the legislation. So that's the fight that we're in now.

HUNT: Do you think the 30-day time frame for release of these documents was realistic?

RASKIN: Well, yes, given that they came to us back in July and said they'd been through all the documents and they couldn't find any basis for bringing any other lawsuits. They'd already scrutinized them.

HUNT: So, what of this do you think falls into the category of protecting victims and what falls into the category of cover-up?

Because, obviously, there is a very strong interest in making sure the victims are protected.

RASKIN: I'd say probably zero and 100. They have not shown any deference or respect for the victims at all,

for the survivors of this nightmare. And it's all about covering up things that, for whatever reason, Donald Trump doesn't want to go public, either about himself, other members of his family, friends, Jeffrey Epstein, or just the social, business, cultural network that he was involved in for at least a decade, if not longer.

HUNT: So do you think the actions that the Department of Justice are taking on this are specifically designed to protect Donald Trump?

RASKIN: What else? I mean, that's their whole business model. In fact, they're trying to reorganize American constitutional jurisprudence and the rule of law around the idea that the entire executive branch serves one guy.

That's the unitary executive theory, that this is all about serving whatever Donald Trump wants. So, yes, I can't imagine what other interests they have in mind.

HUNT: One of the things we did see were a number of pictures of former President Bill Clinton with Jeffrey Epstein, with Ghislaine Maxwell, in a Jacuzzi, swimming in a pool.

[09:05:02]

How do you explain that connection and are you comfortable with it?

RASKIN: I mean, I have no idea.

This is why we want to get to the bottom of it and get all of the facts out to the public. I mean, that's what this is about. And, look, there are clearly lots of people that are in photographs with Jeffrey Epstein. And in addition to being a child sex predator and an international child sex abuse trafficker, he was very much of a socialite and a sycophant and a panderer to different people.

So there's lots of people who've appeared in those contexts. And we shouldn't be covering up for anybody if they were actually involved in criminality. And, otherwise, it's embarrassing to people, but the Congress has said we don't want the suppression of materials simply because somebody may be embarrassed.

I mean, Bill Clinton has appeared, along with Donald Trump, along with Noam Chomsky, and other people from different aspects of our society. But what we're looking at is, how did a global, decades-long, billion- dollar sex ring go undetected and unpoliced for such a long period of time?

This is about a double system of justice. Remember, he was convicted back in 2008, but that didn't stop him from going forward and continuing to run the whole network.

HUNT: I mean, Republicans would probably sit here and say, well, why didn't you do this when Joe Biden was president of the United States, when you had the power? RASKIN: Well, if they asked me personally, I can produce for you, as I have produced for them, a number of letters I wrote, including a hearing I did as a subcommittee chair on the Oversight Committee, about Alex Acosta and the double system of government that we saw back in Florida.

Remember, there was a 60-count federal indictment ready to go on this international child sex trafficking ring with all kinds of counts, including the money laundering, the conspiracy, the prostitution and so on. And Alex Acosta cast the whole thing overboard and came back with one state count of solicitation in Florida to benefit Epstein and his friends.

And there was really a cover-up of other people who were involved as part of that plea bargain agreement. And I have got the letters to show how I was demanding hearings on that back in 2018, 2019.

HUNT: Yes.

RASKIN: So that's just phony.

In any event, accusing somebody else of hypocrisy doesn't demonstrate that you're actually interested in getting to the bottom of the crime. And that's what we need to be doing here.

HUNT: Are you planning to sue the Justice Department to release the rest of these files?

RASKIN: It's not clear that we have got standing to do that. Speaker Johnson would clearly have standing to do that on behalf of the whole House of Representatives.

The court rules about standing of individual members or the minority caucus are very restrictive and hostile. So we're going to be doing whatever we can to elevate this, to keep it in the public imagination and to demand that they turn the documents over.

But if it's possible, we will be bringing litigation, but we're trying to work that through right now.

HUNT: Are you considering or would you support attempting to impeach the attorney general, Pam Bondi, as some other colleagues have suggested is possible?

RASKIN: I mean, look, I think everything is on the table here, but people are coming up with solutions that require a majority in Congress.

So we know the Republicans are in control in the House, they're in control in the Senate. So, when people say let's impeach Bondi, let's impeach Robert F. Kennedy, let's impeach Trump or whomever, I say, bring me some Republicans and we can have a conversation.

Otherwise, what happens is what happened the other day to Al Green. You get up on the floor, and then the whole thing is shot down immediately. So that's purely performative. We're interested in actually getting these materials out.

HUNT: Yes.

So, speaking of what happened on the floor, impeachment, I'd like to turn to politics, because, as you mentioned, that vote, that impeachment vote, did fail on the floor of the House. If Democrats retake the House in the fall, which is looking increasingly likely next fall in the midterm elections, do you think impeaching the president should be something the House looks at?

RASKIN: I mean, right now, we are all 100 percent absorbed in trying to do the work of getting information out that's being withheld by Trump and then going out and campaigning around the country.

I mean, I have been in Ohio with Emilia Sykes and Marcy Kaptur. I have been in Texas. I have been in Michigan with Hillary Scholten and Debbie Dingell. I have been in New Jersey with Nellie Pou. I'm campaigning all over the country.

So, when people say, well, we want to impeach everybody for all these high crimes and misdemeanors, I say, OK, create your file, create your case, and we will deal with it. But we're certainly not running on that. We're running on delivering health care to the American people and trying to restore the government as an instrument for the common good for everybody, as opposed to being an instrument for the private self-enrichment of the guy who gets in and his family and his friends.

[09:10:07]

And that's all we're seeing right now. And this is why the president's poll numbers are sinking like a stone. Their administration is collapsing in a lot of ways. They have got no program for the American people.

HUNT: The Democratic Party, the Democratic National Committee, did an autopsy of what went wrong for Democrats in 2024, which, of course, gave us the second Trump term.

RASKIN: What went wrong is, we lost the election.

HUNT: Well, they have said that they're not going to release the report on why, right?

And Ken Martin, the DNC chair, says: "Here's our North Star. Does it help us win? If the answer is no, it is a distraction from the core mission."

How is learning from mistakes a distraction from the mission?

RASKIN: So, I have not seen that report. And, yes, usually, certainly in Washington, if you're going to do a report, that's something that's going to become public or people are going to find it out one way or another. So if you don't want your answers shared, you probably shouldn't be engaged in the enterprise in the first place.

But, look, this is what the historians called overdetermined, right? There are so many different available causes for anything that happens in politics. Why did somebody win an election? Why did somebody lose an election? And there are certain obvious things.

You know, obviously, the whole dance between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, like, didn't help us. Everybody knows that. That's no secret to anybody. And maybe there are other factors. And I don't see why we wouldn't just share them and talk about them.

But you can never say in history definitively. I mean, what caused the French revolution? They're still fighting about that today, right, you know?

(LAUGHTER)

HUNT: Fair enough.

All right, Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you very much for being with us this morning.

RASKIN: My pleasure, Kasie.

HUNT: I really appreciate it. Happy holidays.

RASKIN: You too.

HUNT: All right, coming up next: Congress skips town without addressing the looming health care crisis. Could Republicans pay a political price? Senator James Lankford joins me next.

Plus: The MAGA civil war spills out into the open. That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:16:29]

HUNT: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

Congress is officially on recess until January without reaching an agreement to prevent health care costs from skyrocketing when Obamacare subsidies expire in just over a week. So, what does it mean for the millions of Americans who are caught in the middle?

Joining me now is Republican Senator James Lankford of Oklahoma.

Senator, thanks very much for joining us this morning.

So, the Senate is now in recess until the new year. There is nothing that is going to stop these premiums from rising. How do you explain to constituents in Oklahoma why this is happening to them?

SEN. JAMES LANKFORD (R-OK): This is, pure and simple, an exploration and a problem that the Democrats created several years ago.

Obamacare is unaffordable. And what is -- what happened when Obamacare was put in place? Prices skyrocketed in the marketplace. During COVID, Democrats put an additional subsidy on top of the Obamacare subsidies. They gave that an expiration date. That was the end of this year, saying this was a COVID era plus-up on it. Obviously, the COVID pandemic is over.

That plus-up is going away, and it's exposing the real issues within Obamacare. That's the challenge that we're facing. Just in my state, we took a six-year snapshot. The Obamacare marketplaces went up 198 percent during that time period. Normal insurance, commercial insurance for everybody else went up 29 percent during that time period.

There are real structural problems in Obamacare that had just been hidden with one subsidy after another after another to try to hide the problems that are there. The problems are now coming out in the daylight. And Republicans have said, we have got to get people more affordable health care and give them more options for them to be able to choose in, and not just lock them into Obamacare.

HUNT: So your colleague Senator Lisa Murkowski, a Republican of Alaska, warned that there may be political consequences to not fixing the problem right now in this moment. Let's watch what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): When people feel that they have counted on or waited for their Congress to act on an issue that they feel is a huge priority, and they see no action, there's consequence to that. As the party in charge, we have got a responsibility to figure it out. And so I do think that there are ramifications if we fail to act on this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Why not act now to keep plans affordable while you figure out the solution that you were just outlining?

LANKFORD: We actually have done that. We voted in the Senate two different sets of proposals. Democrats said, let's just extend the current subsidies three more years, no reforms, no changes. They wanted to have unlimited caps, that literally any amount of income could get Obamacare subsidies on top of it.

You could get half-a-million a year of income and get Obamacare subsidies. That's the current structure that they're in. We actually brought it and said, hey, instead of sending money to insurance companies, which is what Democrats want to do, why don't we get that -- those dollars to individuals and to be able to give them greater choice?

They opposed that. They did not want individuals to be able to have more choice. They wanted all the money to go straight to insurance companies in these tax credits that they want to give to insurance companies. We said that's caused major problems and all kinds of fraud, that we could show all the fraud on it.

So we deadlocked on it between, should the federal government and insurance companies run health care or should people have more power for that?

[09:20:02]

HUNT: Is Murkowski right that Republicans will pay the price?

LANKFORD: We're still debating. We're still talking. There's all kinds of conversation.

Well, we will allow the American people to be able to make decisions on that, where they see where the problem actually originated from. I would tell you, health care in 2010, before Obamacare kicked in, health care in 2010, the normal premium was $215, $215. Now take what it is now after Obamacare has been put in place, and I think the American people can see this caused a major...

(CROSSTALK)

HUNT: Right, but insurance companies could refuse to cover you for a preexisting condition. I mean, the health care system was vastly different before Obamacare for many of those reasons.

LANKFORD: That's true, but I would tell you, even when they looked at a plan that is similar to what is called a silver plan now, where you had protection for preexisting conditions, which I completely support, everybody in Congress completely supports that, even if you look at a plan like that, it has gone up well over 200 percent during that time period.

There is a structural problem in Obamacare that we all need to admit. President Obama said this would bring insurance rates down $2,500 a family. It certainly has not done that. So we need to all start by admitting the problem. There is a problem here. Let's work to be able to fix it.

Health care affordability is a very big issue for every single American. We have got to be able to solve that. We are pushing all kinds of different proposals, associational plans, allowing for high- risk pools, finding ways to be able to put protection for every single family, but also bringing the price down.

It's not that Republicans aren't working on this. Democrats just don't want individuals to have more choice. They want to have a very limited number of choices and give more power to insurance companies. We just don't agree.

HUNT: President Trump is planning on convening the insurance companies. He's planning on meeting with them to tell them that they need to voluntarily lower their prices.

Is that a strategy that you would support?

LANKFORD: Well, President Trump has also met with pharmaceutical companies and said there is a problem with the price of medicine. You need to find a way to be able to bring prices down. They have now worked for the past 11 months. They have put out a proposal to say, here's how the individuals can

get direct access to some of the most expensive drugs, and it will bring the price of drugs down. That starts actually next year. So, yes, that is in the power of the president, the power to convene to be able to say, everybody, come in, let's talk about this. This is a real structural problem.

So, whether it's pharmaceutical companies, whether it's the pharmacy benefit managers, which are one of the biggest culprits behind the scenes and the rise in prescription costs, or whether it is doctors, hospitals and insurance companies, bring everybody in, let's solve the problem.

HUNT: Sir, while I have you, I want to talk to you about what's going on in Venezuela. You, of course, are on relevant committees here.

LANKFORD: Yes.

HUNT: The U.S. has now seized a second oil -- a second vessel off the coast of Venezuela. And, of course, the president initially said that this was about stopping the flow of drugs.

Susie Wiles, his chief of staff, did an interview that suggested the actual goal is regime change. Do you support regime change in Venezuela?

LANKFORD: Well, I would tell you, the Venezuelan people do. They voted against Maduro in the last election. Very few governments, other than China...

(CROSSTALK)

HUNT: But do you support the United States pushing for regime change?

LANKFORD: Well, yes, I do.

I would tell you, the United States' position for now six years, I believe, has been that he is not the recognized leader of Venezuela. We have supported the opposition leaders, the past two opposition leaders in Venezuela. We put sanctions on them.

HUNT: And would you support it with arms?

LANKFORD: President Biden did that.

HUNT: With American arms and boots?

LANKFORD: Arms is a different issue. That's a very different issue in that case. We -- if you break it, you buy it. We have seen that when we pushed out the leadership in Libya, and it's just a collapsed, fail state at this point.

We want the people of Venezuela to be able to have the power to be able to choose their own leaders and for them to be able to control their own destiny on it. But I do know oil has been sanctioned. In fact, the ship that was last seized, and not the one that was done yesterday, the one before that, President Biden had even put sanctions on that.

They were flying under a false flag. They were using fake GPS. They're a sanctioned entity on that. But President Biden didn't take any action on that. President Trump did take action on that. We have got to stop the flow of cocaine coming out of Venezuela and out of Colombia.

We have got to be able to stop that because it's directly coming to the United States. And we have got to allow the people of Venezuela to be able to choose their leader there. Venezuela is destabilizing the entire Western Hemisphere. We should not allow that to happen.

HUNT: All right.

And, sir, on this pre-holiday week, I know you also wanted to touch on and we wanted to touch on with you the importance of faith in our lives. But I especially wanted to ask you about the antisemitism that we have seen, the terrible attack in Australia at Bondi Beach.

There's also, frankly, a rift in the Republican Party that has -- especially among MAGA supporters, that has seen some of those supporters platforming people who hold incredibly deeply antisemitic views.

[09:25:10]

What do you say to people on the right about the dangers of antisemitism?

LANKFORD: I say the same thing I say to people on the right, left, or people that aren't politically engaged at all. Antisemitism is wrong.

The First Amendment protects your right to say any dumb thing, but it doesn't change that it's not a dumb thing. And for these groups of folks that are calling themselves the new right, they are actually quoting an old wrong. Antisemitic tropes are just wrong. It violates our basic structure of who we are as Americans that we want all people to be able to rise.

This goes back to 1790 and a conversation with George Washington, the new president, with a Jewish congregation in Rhode Island, where George Washington promised that the United States will always be a place that will protect the rights of Jewish individuals to be able to thrive here.

So this is core of who we are, and we need to continue to be able to protect that. And I -- it's hard to imagine just a week ago today we were awakening on this Sunday morning to the attack that was there at Bondi Beach in Sydney, and just our hearts just sank thinking about that.

But we have also seen attacks in Pittsburgh here. We have seen attacks in Boulder, Colorado, here, where individuals that were just standing up for Israel or standing up for their right to be Jewish were attacked, and, in Colorado, were set on fire. We have got to be able to turn down the rhetoric and to be able to

speak out clearly for every individual to be able to have the right to be able to live their faith, practice their faith, change their faith, or have no faith at all. That is a core American principle.

HUNT: And finally, sir, we have talked quite a bit about loneliness and the disconnection that many Americans feel and how that may be contributing to many of the ills we're seeing in society.

As a former minister yourself, what do you say to people who feel isolated, who feel alone this holiday season?

LANKFORD: Yes, connect with people.

There's two things here. First, families and individuals need to find people that they see around them that are isolated and alone. There are folks that have lost a loved one, they have lost a spouse or lost a child or that they are very, very alone during this holiday season.

This is a really hard time, because, every time they turn on the TV, there's pictures of families getting together, there's pictures of everything else, and they don't have that. So, reaching out to those folks, just touching base with them, inviting them into your gatherings, giving them a phone call, tracking those folks just to say, hey, I see you and I'm praying for you, or I want to be able to encourage you, or bring a meal to you, those things are incredibly significant.

So, if there's anything we know from the Christmas season, this is a God that we recognize that saw humanity, saw all of our struggles, that he came personally to be able to be in that manger, to be able to live life with us, to say, I see your loneliness, I see your struggles, I forgive your sins.

That is the real message of Christmas. I know we put a lot around it about gathering with families, and those are all really important times. But Christmas is really about a God who sees us where we are and came to be with us. He wasn't disconnected. He came to us to be able to show us his affection.

So let's do that for other people as well and enjoy this Christmas season.

HUNT: All right, Senator James Lankford, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. Merry Christmas to you and your family.

LANKFORD: Merry Christmas to you as well.

HUNT: All right, coming up next here: Republicans want President Trump to focus on affordability and the economy. He seems more interested in other priorities.

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [09:33:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm probably very neurotic. I always say controlled neurosis is good, being neurotic, no good. But if it's controlled, that's OK.

I would look at a chair. The arm of a chair was very important to me. I said, I like that chair, but this arm has to be a different shape.

They went into my wife's closet. Her undergarments, some reason, is sometimes referred to as panties.

(LAUGHTER)

TRUMP: They're folded perfect. I think that she steams them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That was President Trump in North Carolina delivering what was technically billed as an economic speech.

My panel is here with me now.

Scott Jennings, the tangents that we saw from the president were off of the affordability message that his team would like him to stay on.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, the president for a long time now has done the weave. He gives these speeches. He hits different topics. And the crowds like it. It's what he does.

I mean, he did hit affordability messages last night. And he's going to continue to hit messages about what the Republicans are doing and his plan versus the hole the Democrats left us in. But this is the way he does his rallies. And the people like it. And so I don't think it's going to change.

HUNT: Kate?

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think the people are liking it less and less. The MAGA base likes it, but we see evidence that Trump is dropping with independents, he's dropping with moderates, as we're looking toward a midterm election where people are concerned about costs.

When you have him out there in his opportunity to say to people, I get it and here's what I'm doing to make your life better, and you have him talking about armchairs and God knows what else, that's a missed opportunity. And I think he is going to pay a price for that.

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: From my perspective, the rallies, you're right, he always does this weave. He goes all over the place.

But, for me, what's more notable is, this week, he did have a speech with a teleprompter. He gave an address to the country where he was talking about affordability. The problem that I think is not that he's not on the right topic, because now he's actually has shifted mostly to being on the right topic if he's talking about cost of living.

[09:35:04]

My next step of advice for him would be to talk about it in the right way, which would be finding a way to acknowledge that, even though he wants to champion what he thinks is a great economy, Americans aren't feeling it yet. If you have too big a disconnect on that question, it's going to turn out politically perilous for him.

Acknowledge that there's a way to go. Acknowledge that people are not necessarily feeling great now. That's the only way that this affordability message is going to land with the types of voters that I think need to hear it.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't know. I love my panelists that are here on this holiday season, but nobody acknowledged the fact that Donald Trump's old.

Like, he's extremely old. And he is burgeoning on senility, and we can see that. And the fact that we just went through a president who went through that. And Scott and Kristen, they can't -- they will not...

JENNINGS: Are you really going to try this today?

SELLERS: They are not going to say anything without...

JENNINGS: After Biden?

SELLERS: ... mentioning Joe Biden -- exactly, exactly.

JENNINGS: Come on. Come on, Bakari.

SELLERS: But this president is old.

JENNINGS: Unbelievable.

SELLERS: And what -- that's what we're seeing. It's not unbelievable. It is.

I mean, he's talking about undergarments, panties. He's talking about, -- it's not a weave. That's not what we're seeing. We're seeing somebody's old uncle. I mean, let's just call it what it is. Yes, yes, the American public saw Joe Biden get old and decrepit in the White House.

JENNINGS: But we didn't see him for a while. He wasn't...

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: What they're seeing right now is Donald Trump doing the same thing. Let's just admit -- let's call it what it is.

BEDINGFIELD: Absolutely, he is old. I think there are questions about whether he's all there. I think that's a reasonable thing to ask, given what we've seen.

But I would say, I think the big difference here politically from 2024, where he would give these rambling speeches that his base loved, is, he has lost the command and control of his caucus of the Republican Party. We're seeing increasingly splits on key issues. They're divided on health care.

There's -- this question of Israel is absolutely ripping the new right, as Senator Lankford is calling it, apart.

HUNT: Yes, we're going to talk about that next, yes.

BEDINGFIELD: And so, when you are -- when you have lost control of your party, giving these rambling speeches that maybe leave some question as to whether you're totally in command, that is an issue that's going to keep compounding on itself.

JENNINGS: This is like maybe your Christmas wish, but it is not a reality.

The president is the head of the Republican Party. He's never been stronger among Republicans than he is right now. And he's always had a broad...

HUNT: He's fallen a little bit back with Republicans in some polls.

BEDINGFIELD: Is that why he spent six months fighting his party on the Epstein files?

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: You guys have been desperate for 10 years to find the moment where Donald Trump is no longer going to be accepted by the -- he is the leader of the Republican Party. He is going to continue to be the leader of the Republican Party.

BEDINGFIELD: It used to be the case -- it used to be the case that Donald Trump's wish was their command. And it is the case that, for the last six months, for example, they have bucked him on the Epstein files, to the point where they are now releasing...

JENNINGS: The Clinton files. The Clinton files.

BEDINGFIELD: Yes, because it was Bill Clinton who's really suffered for the last six months in terms of the shattering of his coalition...

JENNINGS: I'm sorry. I saw the pictures, the Clinton files.

BEDINGFIELD: ... and his inability to govern, yes, absolutely, Scott.

HUNT: OK, so let's -- I want to take some time to put the Democrats in the barrel for a minute, because we have now talked about Trump quite a bit.

The Democratic Party, Kate, did an autopsy on why they lost in 2024. But they're not going to release it to the public. How is this not a continuation of all of the reasons why the public doesn't trust the Democratic Party, thinks that they are...

SELLERS: This is laughable. So why put Democrats in a barrel?

Because the facts are, Republicans control the House, the Senate, and the White House.

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: They have an 18 percent approval rating.

HUNT: Well, 18 percent of Americans approve of Democrats in Congress.

SELLERS: Listen, Republicans control the House, the Senate.

HUNT: We're an equal opportunity -- by the way, television show, OK?

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: You guys are down to friends, family, illegals, and health insurance executives. That's who you got right now. You need an autopsy.

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: Do we have the...

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: You're trying to pay them billions of dollars.

BEDINGFIELD: In all of the Washington swirl around this report, I think let's look back at -- look, post-2016, where there was a similar there was a similar sense of concern. There were multiple reports. There was a congressional investigation into why the Democrats lost in 2016.

There was a lot of hand-wringing about it. And the Democrats won in 2020. They ran a competitive primary. I was there on the front row, and they won, and they took back the White House.

So the idea that an institutional report that is largely going to be a lot of axe-grinding by individuals who felt angry about different elements of the campaign, the idea that is going to reveal to us something that we don't know about why the Democrats lost in 2024, I think, is a little silly.

And I think, if you look back at 2017 and the way this played out, it didn't hinder the Democrats' ability to win in 2020.

SOLTIS ANDERSON: Introspection can be a good thing. It can be a good thing when you lose to sit back and say, let's really figure out what happened. And there have been times when Republicans have had to go on that journey as well.

I think a lot of people sort of remember the Republican autopsy after Mitt Romney after Barack Obama. BEDINGFIELD: Oh, I was there for that.

SOLTIS ANDERSON: They mostly remember it in terms of this document that said, oh, you have to get more moderate.

If you actually read the text of that document, you have to get more moderate on immigration was one of like 50 different things, a lot of which were very tactical and weirdly are things that Donald Trump did. Meet voters where they are, show up places where voters don't expect you, use digital data effectively.

[09:40:14]

Weirdly, that autopsy gave a lot of interesting road map points that ultimately Donald Trump did use very successfully. So I think avoiding hard truths is not a way for a party to succeed.

HUNT: All right, when we come back: Why are prominent voices in the MAGA coalition turning on each other?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:45:13]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN SHAPIRO, CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And the people who refuse to condemn Candace's truly vicious attacks, and some of them are speaking here, are guilty of cowardice, yes, cowardice.

(CHEERING)

STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: Ben, I have known you a long time, brother. You can't handle the truth. Let's face it, Ben Shapiro is the farthest thing from MAGA.

MEGYN KELLY, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Well, I found it kind of funny that Ben thinks he has the power to decide who gets excommunicated from the conservative movement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Tensions within the MAGA movement spilling out into the open.

Our panel is back.

Scott Jennings, this is the Turning Point USA conference in Phoenix. And the root of this is Israel and the split inside the MAGA movement over whether it's appropriate to elevate people like Nick Fuentes the way that Tucker Carlson did. How do you understand what we're seeing play out here?

I mean, because Ben -- they were talking specifically about Ben Shapiro, who's been very defensive of Israel and critical of the Nick Fuentes situation. JENNINGS: Yes, well, it also had to do with Candace Owens, who

Shapiro directly went after in his remarks and her posture on the conspiracy theories that she has promoted since Charlie Kirk was murdered, which then ultimately led to her having to meet with Erika Kirk, a grieving widow, who she, I think, has put through a terrible time here.

I mean, you have got a grieving widow with little kids trying to take over her husband's organization. And Candace is out here effectively trying to monetize that for her own personal self-aggrandizement, up to and including forcing a meeting?

I think it's pretty crazy. I don't personally like all this infighting myself, but on the issue of Israel and on the issue of whether we're going to platform antisemitism or platform Holocaust deniers, I know where I am. And that is, we're a political party, not a sponge. And we don't have to soak up everything that oozes in under the door.

HUNT: How do you -- I mean, the -- what -- the Candace Owens thing that you mentioned, I mean, you saw Megyn Kelly there, you saw Steve Bennett there, other figures essentially siding with Candace Owens, right, over Ben Shapiro, no? Why?

JENNINGS: I don't know. It's somewhat complicated to me with these personalities and their interplay.

I know this. Platforming and absorbing hateful ideologies and conspiracy theories, especially regarding Charlie's murder, are the opposite of helpful and certainly the opposite of what I would consider to be in good taste, good form.

SOLTIS ANDERSON: The challenge that an organization like Turning Point is facing is that, on an issue like Israel or really any foreign policy issue, there are massive generational divides within the Republican Party.

Things that for an older generation, support of Israel were sort of taken for granted, of course, yes, this is our position, younger conservatives very much do not fall in line with that view. They are quite critical in many cases of Israel.

And the problem is, how do you allow for a broad range of debate about what is acceptable foreign policy in the Middle East that does not wind up playing footsie with the worst of the worst and these terrible ideologies that have no place being anywhere associated with conservatism?

And that's what you're seeing them hash out is, where do you draw that line?

SELLERS: I think what we're seeing is, respectfully -- and I want to just pile on the Republican Party right now and say they're ripping each other apart, but I'm not sure most of the Republican base or most of America even cares what's happening in Phoenix with Turning Point USA. I think that the Republican base is what it is. There are issues about

how we can afford X, Y and Z. There are issues of, like, necessary issues of whether or not we're invading Venezuela, whether or not we're going to war, what a war on drugs looks like.

I don't think that many people are worried about Ben Shapiro or Candace Owens. And I think that a lot of them -- I'm friends with Ben, but I think that a lot of these individuals have a false sense of self. I think that's what you're seeing right now.

And I don't think that there is a pulling apart as much as it is you have these personalities, like every party has, that are just having -- they want to rise to the top. So I don't -- I wish this was something we could pounce on. I just don't find it to be that.

HUNT: Quick last word.

BEDINGFIELD: Well, I'm not so sure. But I do think it's important to call out, which Scott did. And I -- let the record reflect I agree with Scott Jennings that allowing...

JENNINGS: Merry Christmas.

BEDINGFIELD: ... allowing these kinds of -- merry Christmas, Scott. Or maybe not. Maybe, for you, it's not a good thing that I agree with you.

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: Scott celebrates...

(CROSSTALK)

BEDINGFIELD: I do think it's important to acknowledge that this is not just a policy difference that they're debating.

I mean, they're debating whether allowing an open Hitler apologist, Holocaust denier to be a prominent voice in the MAGA movement, whether that's acceptable or not. And Megyn Kelly also, by the way, is somebody who said just a few weeks ago that Jeffrey Epstein sleeping with 15-year-olds wasn't really pedophilia.

So I think there is more -- there are more cultural, important cultural issues here that MAGA has to grapple with than just purely a policy debate.

[09:50:07]

HUNT: All right.

Coming up next: the rise and fall of a one-time MAGA star.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: A headline you might have missed this week, on Friday, New York Republican Congresswoman Elise Stefanik announced she was dropping her bid for governor and that she wouldn't run for reelection in the House.

[09:55:03]

It's a surprising end to a political career that reflects the Republican Party's transformation under Donald Trump. First elected in 2014, at the time the youngest woman ever to serve in Congress, Stefanik was seen as a moderate rising star.

But when Donald Trump burst onto the scene, she quickly morphed from sharp critic to self-described ultra-MAGA warrior.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You were killing them, Elise. You were killing them.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: I will always be your friend. I think it was -- it's really an amazing story. What a great future you have. What a great future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Floated as a potential future speaker or even a Trump running mate, Stefanik's loyalty paid off when Trump nominated her to join his administration as U.N. ambassador.

But concerns over Republicans' tight House majority led Trump to abruptly pull her nomination. And, earlier this month, her longshot bid to unseat New York Democratic Governor Kathy Hochul suffered a major blow when President Trump hedged on endorsing her in the Republican primary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: She's got a little competition, and with a very good Republican, but she's a great Republican. So we will see what happens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: A little over a week later, Stefanik ended her campaign, writing on X -- quote -- "While many know me as congresswoman, my most important title is mom. I know that, as a mother, I will feel profound regret if I don't further focus on my young son's safety, growth, and happiness, particularly at his tender age."

On TRUTH Social, President Trump praised Stefanik as a -- quote -- "tremendous talent," saying that he was with her all the way. The next day, he endorsed her competitor in the primary for governor.

And, with that, thank you so much for spending your Sunday morning with us. A very merry Christmas, a happy Hanukkah to all who celebrate.

"FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" picks it up next.