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The Brief with Jim Sciutto
U.S. Senate Passes DOGE Cuts; Two Senate Republicans Vote Against DOGE Cuts; Fragile Ceasefire in Syria; Netanyahu Defends Syrian Airstrikes; More Than 250 Killed in Suwayda in Recent Sectarian Violence; Future of U.S.-China Relations; Hungary's Push to End Russia's War on Ukraine; Taiwan Defense Drills. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired July 17, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all over the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. And you're watching "The
Brief."
Just ahead this hour, Congress is taking up a DOGE spending cut package that slashes $8 billion, particularly from foreign aid. A fragile ceasefire
appears to be holding in Syria after Israel struck government buildings in the capitol Damascus. And Taiwan carries out one of its largest ever
civilian defense drills to prepare for a possible attack by China.
We do begin here in Washington where the Trump agenda is on the verge of another boost. On Capitol Hill, the president's DOGE bill, it's on its way
to the House after passing the Senate. If passed, it will claw back $9 billion of federal funding previously approved by Congress. Overnight,
Republican Senators approve the bill, which needs to be passed in the House by Friday in order to bypass any need for Democratic votes. The vast
majority of that money, $8 billion, is for foreign aid, the remaining $1 billion was headed to public broadcasting in this country.
Mano Raju is on the Hill. So, Manu, we're hearing of perhaps a last-minute snag, and this is Republicans frustrated by the administration's handling
of the Epstein case?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this has actually delayed action on this bill. There are signs, though, Jim, that perhaps
this resolution -- there could be a resolution in this. After a daylong negotiation that happened between the speaker of the house, Mike Johnson, a
number of these holdouts who had demanded much more when it came to accountability, it came to release of more information as it pertain to the
Jeffrey Epstein case.
Remember how this has to move ahead in the House of Representatives. There needs to be, first, need to be a procedural vote to essentially get on to
the bill so it can be approved by a straight majority. A simple majority in the United States House. The Republicans have the majority in the House.
However, if they can't pass the first procedural vote of it, they don't have enough votes to move ahead on that procedural matter, then they can't
move the bill at all. And on that procedural vote, several Republicans have withheld their support until they get more assurances from the speaker on
how they plan to deal with the Epstein matter.
Now, earlier this week, there was a push by Democrat Ro Khanna of California to force the release of all the Epstein files. One Republican,
Ralph Norman, of South Carolina voted with the Democrats, but enough Republicans blocked that effort from going forward. And I'm told all day
long they've been trying to figure out if there's any sort of middle ground, because Norman, as well as several other Republicans have said they
would not support this first procedural vote until there's an agreement on the Epstein issue.
Now, we are hearing that there is some sort of resolution. We don't have the details of that yet, but there are signs, Jim, that this is going to
move ahead tonight. The vote to advance this measure that would claw back rescind $9 billion of federal funding, including billions of dollars in
foreign aid, and more than a billions of -- billion dollars to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which does fund public radio stations
and television stations across the United States.
We do expect that to move forward at some point, Jim, but it remains to be seen because this Epstein matter is dividing Republicans, and Republicans
want a lot more than we're getting from the White House, which is not a whole lot at this moment. Jim.
SCIUTTO: Yes. President Trump himself used to call for their release, but no longer. Manu Raju, on the hill, thanks so much.
For more now I'm joined by House Democrat, Debbie Dingell. Congresswoman, thanks so much for taking the time.
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): Jim, good to be with you.
SCIUTTO: So, this latest bill, part of a much broader, I think, assault, one could call it, by this administration of Republicans on foreign aid but
also now public broadcasting, specific to the -- to public broadcasting money here, it's going to have the biggest effect, it seems, on rural
stations. What damage do you think this does?
DINGELL: Well, look, this bill does a lot of damage in two ways. Yes, a billing of it is for public broadcasting, which, in many cases, is the main
source of news in rural communities, it's going to kill Sesame -- I mean, they're not supporting Sesame Street. What's going to happen to Sesame
Street? That has been an important educational tool.
[18:05:00]
But the money that goes to foreign investments or PEPFAR, although PEPFAR, I'm not sure exactly what the status of that is, but money that has saved
lives in many instances, aid work that has been done really has helped us in our national security, money that has strengthened our allies, it's just
being cut. It's just been decimated. It was money that was approved in a bipartisan manner, both appropriations and on the floor. It was part of the
budget.
And what they're doing is, one, hurting many different programs, but, two, just gutting trust between the two parties that I think is very critical
when you are in a budget appropriations process.
SCIUTTO: In many of these spaces that the U.S. is now exiting, both in terms of foreign aid but also in terms of foreign broadcasting, right? You
think of the Voice of America, you see China moving into that space. I wonder what effect do you think this has on American soft power.
DINGELL: Look, what effect? Big effect. Who trusts America right now? That is a very serious issue that we had. We used to be the leader. People
respected America. They wanted to be our ally. They wanted to be our friend.
I mean, I just look at Canada, where my state abuts it. Canadians were our best friends. They were our brothers and sisters, our allies, our family.
They boo us now. It's unforgivable. And then when you go into the global world of order, you know that China has been trying to strengthen its
position, make itself the number one country. They're trying to attack our economy, take over the economies in other countries that our national
security, all of this is -- what they are doing is very significantly hurting how we are perceived in the world and what our allies think of us.
SCIUTTO: The Senate voted to claw back this funding through the rarely used rescission process, which, in effect, prevents a filibuster because you
only need 51 votes rather than 60. I wonder, in your view, is this a backdoor way to bypass the filibuster? Kill the filibuster?
DINGELL: Of course, it is. It's absolutely a vector away. It was negotiated because getting budgets passed had become so difficult. You know, there's
the bird rule that -- or the bird bath that people refer to when we were passing the budget. This is a backdoor way. And as people are now in the
appropriations process in both the Senate and the House, Susan Collins, the Republican chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee, voted against this
and she knows that it is destroying people's confidence and faith in working together to appropriate, to run our government.
So, yes, this is a backdoor way for the president to make cuts that we don't agree with, that if we were really debating and discussing and the
American people understood what the full impact of these would be, we would not be doing.
SCIUTTO: I wonder about the precedent here too, because if Democrats win back Congress, might we expect Democrats to use a similar process to
funding for Republican programs they oppose?
DINGELL: I think that there are a lot of things that Democrats are learning in these last few months. There are precedents being set on a number of
things. I hope Democrats always keep their ethics, but we've got to learn how to be tough and move fast. And there's a lot of things that we're going
to have to look at as we move forward in how we do things.
SCIUTTO: Do any of your Republican colleagues privately concede that big picture here, they're in effect yielding their own constitutional
congressional powers to the president, right? You talk about the power of the purse, you know, that this is Congress, this is previously approved
congressional funding. So, much is happening via executive order that normally would be the job of the Hill.
DINGELL: I think you'll see some Republicans vote against this. They did the last time, tonight. Is it enough for us to win? I don't know. They've
got -- we have a lot of people that say they're -- you know, make noise and then they cave.
But I want to tell you, when we passed the big -- that big awful bill, it's big bad bill is all I can call it, I can't tell you how many Republicans
came up to me and told me how bad the bill was, how this was going to hurt people that they represented. It was going to close not only rural
hospitals, one of the doctors said to me, it's going to close urban hospitals.
They didn't like the bill. They knew it had negative consequences. But this climate that we're in, people got to do what they think is right, not have
their arms broken. And I don't think you should go into elected office if you're not willing to stand up and do what's right. And that's what I'm
always going to do. And it's why I'm in trouble a lot up in the Hill sometimes. But I'm just worried about all of this and what it means.
[18:10:00]
SCIUTTO: Yes. Political courage is an endangered species these days. Congresswoman Debbie Dingell, we do appreciate you joining.
DINGELL: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is defending Israeli airstrikes on Syria and warning new attacks are possible if the Druze
minority in southern Syria is threatened again,
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): The Air Force struck both the murderous gangs and the armored vehicles. I also
added a target to strike the ministry of defense in Damascus. As a result of this intensified operation, a ceasefire took hold and the Syrian forces
withdrew back to Damascus. This is significant. This is a ceasefire achieved through strength, not through pleas, not through begging, through
strength. We acted and will continue to act as necessary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Syria withdrew its forces from the southern city of Suwayda and announced a ceasefire there. It entered the region after fighting broke out
between the Druze and Bedouin communities. Turkey's president, condemned strikes Wednesday in Damascus. Those strikes killed at least three people.
Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused Israel of using the Druze as an excuse to expand its influence and reach in Syria. Syria's president had this to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AHMED AL-SHARAA, SYRIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): The Israeli entity known for its repeated attempts to destabilize us and sow division once
again seeks to turn our land into a battlefield of chaos and to dismantle the fabric of our people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: One civil rights monitor says that more than 250 in Suwayda were killed in the recent fighting there. Joining us now Firas Maksad. He's the
Eurasia Group's managing director for the Middle East and North Africa. Firas, always good to talk.
FIRAS MAKSAD, EURASIA GROUP'S MANAGING DIRECTOR FOR MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA: Thank you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: So, I wonder, the Israeli justification for this is, we are coming in to protect the Druze. Is that a credible reason? Is that the actual
reason in your view?
MAKSAD: Well, Jim, there's no doubt in my mind that if you are Druze in the southern province of Suwayda in Syria, you're thankful that Israel carried
out these attacks that held back what are ostensibly government forces, but in reality, really jihadi fighters that help propel Ahmed al-Sharaa, the
current president, to power just six months ago. Some of them even foreign fighters, not even Syrians. And therefore, more willing to commit these
atrocities.
But we have to remember also that there had been a more than a decade old civil war in Syria. Over half a million Syrians have lost their lives.
Israel did not intervene then to help anybody. So, clearly, here, Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu out to defend what is Israeli interest,
Israeli influence in Southern Syria. He's much void (ph) by the recent war against Iran, where he emerged victorious, also against Hezbollah in
Lebanon.
And then lastly, one has to say that there's also a local Druze community in Israel that is quite active in the Israeli military and lobbied very
hard for that dramatic intervention. The bombing of Umayyad Square in Damascus, really the equivalent of bombing Pennsylvania Avenue here in
Washington, D.C.
SCIUTTO: Sure. And I remember those Druze communities were hit in the war between Israel and Hezbollah as well, with a number of casualties. I
wonder, you mentioned Israeli strikes, not just of course in Syria, but we saw in Lebanon, Iran. Does Israel, in effect, today have the ability to
strike almost with impunity in Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, Gaza? I mean, what's standing in its way?
MAKSAD: You know, the Israeli prime minister, Bibi Netanyahu, keeps talking about himself fighting on a seven-front war.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
MAKSAD: All these places that you mentioned, Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq even, Iran, Yemen, the Houthis there, the West Bank also. And so, many
around the regions are looking at what's happening. And certainly, some Arab countries where the preeminent concern for so long had been Iran and
not Israel. And all of a sudden, these countries, particularly in the Gulf, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar and others, are wondering now that Iran has been
weakened so much, its proxies decimated, whether Israel is now in danger of overreach, and whether there needs to be a new coming together of big
countries, like Turkey, like Saudi Arabia and others in an effort to counterbalance and contain Israel in the coming period.
Certainly, what we saw unfold in Syria, the dramatic bombings in Southern Syria, but also in Damascus itself will reinforce that sense of Israel
right now is simply unchecked.
[18:15:00]
SCIUTTO: We're again seeing a ceasefire and hostage release deal between Israel and Hamas delayed, this even after the Trump administration was
saying last week that the deal was just days away. I mean, we've had that before, right? What is standing in the way now? What do you think the final
obstacles are here?
MAKSAD: Yes, great question, Jim. Again, everybody eager to see that ceasefire come into place in Gaza after some 20 months of fighting, tens of
thousands of Palestinians dead there. Obviously, also on the Israeli side, some casualties. But really, it's come down to three things now. Who will
distribute the aid? And there's been an agreement on that in Gaza and during the ceasefire. The extent of Israeli redeployment out of the Gaza
Strip. And also, some guarantees that in 60 days, this is a temporary ceasefire, the fighting won't resume.
The crucial point, the sticking point so far right now is the extent of Israeli redeployment. And again, this gets mired in Israeli domestic
politics. At the end of the month, the Israeli Knesset, their parliament will go on summer recess. The Israeli prime minister will have a lot more
leeway in making some concessions. Further redeployments out of Gaza that I think will then facilitate that ceasefire finally coming into place.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Israeli politics once again a driving force for so much. Firas Maksad, thanks so much for joining.
MAKSAD: My pleasure.
SCIUTTO: Coming up on "The Brief."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICHOLAS BURNS, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO CHINA: I think that logic and self-interest will push China and the United States towards a trade deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: My conversation with former U.S. ambassador to China, Nicholas Burns, on tariffs, American allies, and the threat to Taiwan just after the
break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief. Another day of gains on Wall Street with the S&P 500 and NASDAQ rising to fresh records. Stocks advance after
the latest numbers show that U.S. retail sales bounced back in June. Strong earnings from PepsiCo and United Airlines also boosted sentiment with
United saying it is seeing U.S. travel demand picking up. Netflix also beat on earnings and sales.
Brazil's President says his country can find new trading partners to replace the United States if President Trump follows through on his recent
50 percent tariff threat against Brazil. The Brazilian president, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, spoke with Christiane Amanpour in an exclusive
interview addressing the future of U.S.-Brazilian trade.
[18:20:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUIZ INACIO LULA DA SILVA, BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): What we cannot have is President Trump forgetting that he was elected to govern
the U.S. He was elected not to be the emperor of the world. It would be much better to establish a negotiation first and then to reach the possible
agreement, because we're two countries that we had very good meetings, and we have good relations for 200 years. And so, he's breaking away from any
protocol, any liturgy that should exist between the relations between two heads of state.
It was very unpleasant. We are trying to talk with the people there, but we're also preparing ourselves to give an answer to that. What I've been
saying publicly is that we will use all the words that exist in the dictionary in trying to negotiate. If we don't manage to reach an
agreement, I can reassure you that we will go to the World Trade Organization or we can gather group of countries to respond, or we can use
the reciprocity law that was passed, this bill by the National Congress. This is how it's going to work.
I regret that two countries that have an historical relationship of 201 years prefer to be fighting through judicial means because one president
does not respect the sovereignty of the other president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: President Lula da Silva says he hopes to reach a trade agreement with the U.S., but says it is up to President Trump to, quote, "seriously,"
in his words, consider negotiation.
China says the U.S. tariffs aimed President Trump says that curbing fentanyl production are a losing battle. The country's foreign ministry
said today that fentanyl was a U.S. problem, not a Chinese one, and that the tariffs have, quote, "severely impacted" the dialogue and cooperation
between China and the U.S. in drug control.
It comes a day after President Trump says he believes Beijing will soon sentence people to death for fentanyl manufacturing and distribution. This
as trade negotiations continue between China and the U.S. ahead of president's August 1st trade deal deadline.
I spoke with former U.S. ambassador to China, Nicholas Burns, at the Aspen Security Forum in Colorado, including about the prospects for a trade
agreement between the U.S. and China.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: What is your view of the U.S.-China trade war, trade relationship? Do you see the two parties ultimately coming to some sort of agreement?
NICHOLAS BURNS, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO CHINA: I think that logic and self-interest will push China and the United States towards a trade deal.
China needs stability. China needs continued access to the United States as its largest export in market for its manufacturing and export led economy.
And Xi Jinping, President Xi think he wants a stable economic relationship with the United States. Trade investment between the two countries last
year was $642 billion. It's one of the biggest economic relationships in the world. The United States needs the same thing. We need to grow and we
need access to trade with China. But I think President Trump has a right and is right to be tough-minded with China.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
BURNS: My experience as American ambassador in China is that China's one of the largest disruptors in the global trade system, dumping its excess
capacity in steel, robotics, lithium batteries, electric vehicles, solar panels on the rest of the world. And remember, it was President Joe Biden
who put a hundred percent tariffs on Chinese EVs and 50 percent on semiconductors, and 25 percent on lithium batteries.
So, I would not have advised on Liberation Day, April 2, 2025, 145 percent tariffs on China. But it got their attention. And so, I really hope the two
sides can put together a trade deal. It'll be good for the American economy.
SCIUTTO: From the U.S. perspective, will the U.S. emerge from this with a more favorable trading relationship with China? That is President Trump's
contention that this will even the playing field or make it fairer.
BURNS: I think both President Biden and President Trump have wanted a fairer deal. A lot of people here at Aspen have been saying, well, China's
got the better of this. I actually don't see it that way. I think China was ready. I knew that from my time in China. I just left in mid-January. They
were preparing for an eventual showdown with President Trump.
And so, you know, you saw them deploy rare earth. They took that away from the United States for 30 days. It caused a lot of problems for our economy.
But at the same time, President Trump reciprocated by saying, well, then no ethane and no critical parts for your semiconductor industry. So, I think
we almost have a truce right now. We've got to move -- the two sides have to move from truce to deal.
SCIUTTO: Is the talk of decoupling behind us? I mean, you've just described how the trading relationship is important to both the U.S. and China.
BURNS: Yes, it is.
SCIUTTO: Is that -- have the two sides realized, actually, we can't live without each other?
BURNS: I think that would be a great mistake. The trick in our relationship with China, Jim, and you know it as well as anybody, is we've got to
compete with them and stand up to them on human rights, on technology, on what the PLA is trying to do in the South and East China Sea and the Taiwan
Strait.
[18:25:00]
But at the same time, our economic interest with about a million jobs dependent on American jobs on trade with China is to continue a big trading
relationship. What President Biden did was to say, let's continue a big trading relationship, but we're going to deny China dual use technology
exports from the U.S., like advanced semiconductors for A.I. purposes, because we don't want the PLA to have our most advanced technology to out
compete as militarily. That makes great sense to me, and that's why I'm wondering about the decision that President Trump made to allow NVIDIA to
sell the H20 chips to China that was just announced in the last couple of days.
SCIUTTO: Some serious leverage away.
BURNS: Exactly right. And I don't know the details. So, I don't want to be unfair here, but it worries me. Our leverage over China is, we're going to
deny you do use technology that your intelligence and military community can use to compete with us. And so, I very much supported what President
Biden did, which was very hardnosed, we'll trade, but not in these very important technologies.
SCIUTTO: The thing the Trump administration has done is it has repeated the same tactics it's used against China with America's closest allies and
trading partners, assigning enormous tariffs, threatening economic pain or collapse. I mean, you've heard this kind of language even regarding a
country as close to the U.S. as Canada. What, in your view, has the U.S. lost from that approach?
BURNS: I said that President Trump was right to be tough-minded with China. I think he's made a mistake in placing these very, very high tariff levels
on Japan, on South Korea, on the European Union. I'll just name those.
SCIUTTO: Sure.
BURNS: Those three, because they're all major trading partners of the United States, but they're also something else. They're military treaty
allies.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
BURNS: And when I was ambassador, I think our strongest suit in deterring the Chinese and competing with them is that I could go in knowing that my
E.U. counterpart, my Japanese counterpart, my South Korean counterpart, my Australian counterpart were pushing on the same basis. We were together.
And if you think about weight, and diplomats need leverage and weight at the table, Japan, U.S. and the E.U. is 60 percent of global GDP, the
Chinese were really worried that in the -- that President Biden had united the Democratic allies against China. And I thought it was a big mistake for
President Trump to treat Japan the way he was treating China. And so, that's, I think, the major tactical error of the last couple of months.
SCIUTTO: You mentioned the treaty alliances with America's Asian allies, South Korea, Japan. I mean, even discussion of the AUKUS agreement. Do
those allies believe that the U.S. is truly committed to those alliances under President Trump?
BURNS: To give the Trump administration its due, both Secretary Hegseth and Secretary Rubio have gone to Tokyo and Seoul, and even in -- when they talk
about Taiwan and said, you know, we are maintaining a tough policy of building up deterrence against China and we'll honor our treaty
commitments. The Philippines is another key ally in that respect.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
BURNS: And for a long time, President Trump was NATO's leading critic, but now, there was a very successful NATO summit. Meeting in the Hague just
recently, President Trump is speaking more positively. So, I think it's nuance, it's complex.
I'm very happy to see that President Trump has turned now on the issue of arms to Ukraine and is supporting American arms paid for by Europeans to
President Zelenskyy. I would hope he'd see the continued existential value of Japan to the United States in our East Asia policy and Australia and the
Philippines and South Korea.
And right now, there are rocky among those East Asian allies with Washington, and that is very, very unfortunate.
SCIUTTO: Is Taiwan in greater danger today of Chinese military action, whether by invasion or perhaps some sort of blockade or boa constrictor
operations as it sometimes is described is it in greater danger of that today than it was last year, a few years ago?
BURNS: I wouldn't say it's in greater danger this year because the Trump administration has followed through with arm sales to Taiwan. And the two
secretaries of state and defense have spoken of great support for Taiwan's security needs.
The key is Japan and the Philippines in working with the United States. Another reason why not to create a trade war with Japan, at the same time
that we need them to be our rock of stability on the military side. And what we've got to do is alter the strategic calculus of Beijing to make the
idea of a cross straight invasion really unthinkable for them, given the cost that they would incur and the risk that they take.
[18:30:00]
And that's why we've got to be very steady in saying an attack would be inadmissible, China would be subject to massive economic sanctions by the
rest of the world. I'd say in my entire time in China, my big takeaway is, be nice to your allies. Because they're the difference maker in helping us
to deter China, on Taiwan, on sanctions, on human rights, on a lot of issues.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Historically that's been America's advantage.
BURNS: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Ambassador Nicholas Burns, we appreciate you joining.
BURNS: Thanks, Jim.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Go for the deal. That is what the Hungarian prime minister told Ukraine's president to end the war with Russia. This according to one of
its close -- his closest advisers. He tells me why he believes Europe is taking the wrong approach with Ukraine in my exclusive interview right
after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto. Here are more international headlines we're watching today. President Trump's cost
cutting DOGE bill now faces a Friday deadline in the House after the Senate passed the package over the night. The bill aims to take away roughly $8
billion from congressionally approved foreign aid programs, as well as a billion dollars from public broadcasting in this country.
President Trump has undergone a medical exam after experiencing mild swelling in his lower legs. The White House says Trump was diagnosed with
chronic venous insufficiency. That's a condition where blood pools in the veins. The White House says otherwise, he's in excellent health.
Israel says it deeply regrets a strike on the only Catholic church in Gaza. Three people were killed, several injured by the Israeli strike, including
the parish priest who the late Pope Francis called almost every day since Israel's war in Gaza began. The Israeli prime minister's office claims
stray ammunition hit the church.
[18:35:00]
Pope Leo says he is deeply saddened and is called once again for an immediate ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
Russia launched deadly salvos across Ukraine once again overnight, killing at least six people, this according to Ukrainian authorities. Energy
infrastructure came under fire again. This was the scene in Vinnytsia where firefighters had to come out, attempt to put those flames out. Russian
forces down to 126 Ukrainian drones overnight, this according to the Russian defense ministry.
My next guest argues that, "Europe is acting as an agent of the Ukrainians" and that Moscow and Kyiv want to continue to fight their war. Those are the
views of a Hungarian lawmaker who is a close adviser to Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orban. Hungary has consistently opposed sending weapons to
Ukraine, despite being a member of NATO, and has been critical of E.U. sanctions against Russia. Putting it at odds with most other E.U. and NATO
members who have pledged unequivocal support for Kyiv.
At the Aspen Security Forum yesterday, Balazs Orban, no relation to the prime minister, told me that after Prime Minister Orban's so-called peace
missions, Orban drew this conclusion about the conflict.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BALAZS ORBAN, POLITICAL DIRECTOR FOR THE PRIME MINISTER OF HUNGARY AND MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, HUNGARY: The Ukrainians and the Russians, they have
their own argumentation why they want to continue to fight. Both parties want to continue to fight. So, he thinks that we need neutral mediators,
like big countries need to be neutral mediators who are putting pressure on both parties, restoring communication channels, and in the same time,
putting pressure on both parties, but not because of the continuation of the war, but because of closing it.
And what we see that there is direct communication between U.S. and Russia, which is a very good thing. We were hoping for this for like, three years.
And I think President Putin is -- he is dealing with President Trump directly. And President Trump wants -- still wants to close the conflict,
which is a good sign from our perspective. Obviously, we don't want the circle of escalation.
SCIUTTO: What evidence has Hungary seen that Putin is interested in peace negotiations? As you know, Ukraine quite early on agreed to President
Trump's ceasefire. Russia still has not agreed and has repeatedly refused, and one might say is escalating the attacks rather than reducing them.
ORBAN: This is why I am saying that from a diplomatic point of view, what is happening and what is done by the Trump administration, it's a very
complex initiative. And I think they are working quite well. Communication is important. There were some direct talks also between the Ukrainians and
the Russians.
But you know, I don't want to go into the games. What we see is that the Ukrainians and the Russians, so both parties, they want to continue the
fight. It doesn't matter how they communicate. They think both countries that time is on their side and they will get a better result if they
continue the fight.
So, this is why it's very important that we have a different approach from the United States administration, the new administration, and they want to
close the conflict, which is a very sad story because Europe is already losing on this conflict very well -- very much.
SCIUTTO: Here at Aspen, at the Security Forum, as you're quite aware, most of the European officials look at Russia as a threat, not just to Ukraine
security, but to their own security. And they look not just to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but they looked to Russia's invasion of Georgia in
2008. The Russian military presence in Moldova now, and other attempts to interfere. Does Hungary see Russia as a threat to European security?
ORBAN: So, look, we are talking about for like 10 years, way before the Ukraine conflict started, that Europe should be increased military spending
because it would increase European strategic autonomy, if we want to use the French term. So, we support that idea. And so far, we did our part. We
have 2 percent GDP spending, and we agreed on the higher numbers as well.
But the real debate in Europe right now is how to protect ourselves, should we be protected through Ukraine or should we re-arm ourselves? And the
Hungarian position is very clear on that. We shouldn't be protecting ourselves through Ukraine because that would lead us into a strategy
confrontation with Russia, which shouldn't be the case, but the European armies should be stronger to defend ourself if it's needed.
[18:40:00]
SCIUTTO: Do you believe, as many have said, that Ukraine is, to some degree, fighting for Europe's security on its own, right, in the Ukraine?
ORBAN: No, no, I disagree with that.
SCIUTTO: Tell me why.
ORBAN: That's the -- that's why the Hungarian position is quite unique. They are fighting for themselves. And they have the right to do so. But
it's not about our security. We never asked them to fight in the name of us. We don't want to go into confrontation with Russia.
We need to be able to protect ourself. But the Ukrainians are doing their thing. It's not the European thing. This is what the debate is about inside
the European Union.
SCIUTTO: Well, do you accept that Ukraine is doing their thing as it were, because they were invaded by Russia, in other words --
ORBAN: Yes, yes.
SCIUTTO: -- Ukraine is fighting for its own sovereignty?
ORBAN: But it's their decision. You know, we will see what the outcome of that strategy will be. They lost hundreds and hundreds of thousands of
people, millions left the country, and they lost their financial independence. So, we will see where we are heading. This is why my prime
minister tried to convince President Zelenskyy that the time is not on his side. So, he should also go for the deal.
SCIUTTO: Do you believe that Russia is a threat to -- or might invade or another way attack NATO members?
ORBAN: I think it's not realistic now.
SCIUTTO: Tell me why, or in the future.
ORBAN: Because NATO is far stronger than Russia. And if we are able to increase our spending, we Europeans, we will be far stronger as well. Why
would they do that?
SCIUTTO: Deterrence in effect.
ORBAN: Yes.
SCIUTTO: OK. E.U. membership, as I know your own position and Hungary's position, is that Ukraine should not be a candidate for E.U. membership
today. Tell us why.
ORBAN: They can be a candidate. So, they have the right to apply, but European countries should make decisions. It's a huge amount of money.
Europeans, they don't have this money. European competitiveness is very much down. And if we let Ukraine in the European Union without closing the
conflict and without reaching an agreement between the west and Russia, then we import the conflict, and then the war will be inevitable, which
will -- this is something we Hungarians don't want to see coming.
SCIUTTO: After the war, though, you -- Hungary would support the possibility of Ukrainian membership?
ORBAN: You know, now it's not realistic. Now, it's not the time to talk about it. We have to be -- I know it's not, convenient situation for many
because they were promising NATO membership. So, Western countries were promising NATO membership and E.U. membership to Ukrainians. And now, it
turned out that they cannot be NATO members.
Obviously, from a realistic point of view, that was always the case. And the same with the E.U. membership. So, now what we should do is to be
realistic. It cannot happen right now because it would have a devastating consequence on the future of Europe.
SCIUTTO: What do you say to Ukrainians who might say to Hungary, say that Hungary benefited from E.U. membership, particularly in the post-Soviet
Union era? It allowed it to prosper economically and to grow stronger. Why would it be right for Hungary, but not for Ukraine?
ORBAN: So, I understand why they want to join. I'm not questioning their argumentation on that basis. But what I'm saying is that when Hungary and
all other Eastern European countries joined, first they became NATO members. So, that was a security umbrella. And there was a long discussion
and negotiation how it will not harm Western European countries' interest and how they find a so-called modus operandi (ph).
And now, no one is talking about that because everybody's saying that, you know, it should be a geopolitical decision, not a merit-based process. They
use the term merit-bases but it's like it's fake. Everybody knows that. And we have serious problems right now in Ukraine. There was a Hungarian man, a
Hungarian-Ukrainian dual citizen who was dying during a (INAUDIBLE) and conscription just recently.
And you know, if you are in war, you cannot integrate into this market and into this big economic structure without destroying the others, which
shouldn't be the case. So, Europe should be taking responsibility for itself.
SCIUTTO: Mr. Orban, thanks so much for your time. We appreciate you joining.
ORBAN: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[18:45:00]
SCIUTTO: My conversation there with an adviser to the Hungarian prime minister. Still ahead, a report from Taiwan where officials there are
preparing the population for a possible war with China they hope will never come.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Taiwan officials carrying out one of their largest ever civil defense drills to prepare for the possibility of an attack or invasion by
China. The drills in coordination with Taiwan's military are featuring this year newly purchased U.S. Abrams Tanks. Taiwan's president said that by
preparing for war he hopes to avoid one. Will Ripley was there and has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We just got this presidential alert. It says, Missile attack. Seek immediate shelter.
If war breaks out in Taiwan this is what it could look like. Oh, there they go. Air raid sirens across Taipei. People had to abandon their cars. You've
got buses just sitting there empty. This busy street in the middle of a workday totally empty, except for the police making sure that people are
not out on the sidewalks.
This is Taiwan's first-ever urban resilience drill. It's designed to prepare civilians for war. The government wants people to take cover
underground -- basements, metro stations, parking lots.
At this Taipei supermarket chain shoppers take shelter from a simulated airstrike.
Military police sweep through the subway system moving gear and personnel to the capital underground. When the sirens stop, civil defense drills
begin. How fast can people open shelters, ration food, protect telecoms and power grids.
C4 explosives detonate in the Danshui River, part of simulations to block China's PLA forces from advancing by water into Taipei. Anti- aircraft
units trained to intercept incoming missiles before they ever reach the capital.
On Taiwan's outlying islands troops prepare for amphibious landings, firing artillery, watching missiles, and timing every single move. Nighttime
combat drills in Kinmen, training to defend this island in the dark.
[13:50:00]
Portions of these drills have been held annually for decades but this year's lasts 10 days, twice as long as usual. So why now? Taiwan's military
points to daily threats from Beijing. Warplanes crossing into Taiwan's air defense zone. Chinese ships flexing in nearby waters.
Taiwan doesn't know how much time it has but planners agree if war does happen the future of this island democracy depends on how everyone
responds.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Taiwan taking that threat very seriously. Well, still to come, Disneyland turns 70. I'm going to speak to a Disney historian as we look at
one of the park's major new attractions and their long history.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: The happiest place on earth, as it's known, is celebrating its 70th birthday. Disneyland marking that day by bringing back the man behind
the mouse. Its late founder, Walt Disney, featured in a new animatronic show. The company says it is the most lifelike and fluid figure they've
ever made.
Joining us now to discuss is Walt Disney historian Jeff Kurtti. Jeff, thanks so much for being here.
JEFF KURTTI, WALT DISNEY HISTORIAN AND WALT DISNEY STUDIES, CHAPMAN UNIVERSITY: Glad to be here.
SCIUTTO: Listen, 70 years of history at the park, it's hard to pick one or maybe even a handful of highlights. But in that period, what stands out to
you and has it kept up with the times?
KURTTI: I think it's kept up with the times and moved beyond in a careful balance. The trick is when you're dealing with the park that Walt Disney
himself built, you have to create a precarious situation where you have to keep moving forward, bringing new audiences in, doing new things, but you
have to be true to the philosophy and to the origins of Disneyland itself 70 years ago.
SCIUTTO: I mean, part of that, right, is accessibility, and having taken my own family a couple of times, it's not cheap, and as I understand, it's
going to offer a limited multi-day ticket for as low as $120 a day. Is that part -- is that deliberate here to try to expand the audience or at least
make it more accessible?
KURTTI: My expertise really isn't in currency in terms of Disneyland. My expertise is on Walt Disney and his life and his work. I'm not sure what
strategies are or what the business side of Disneyland is really about. I'm sort of a culture and legacy guy.
SCIUTTO: Well, tell me then about this new attraction. They bring him back to life, right, with technology to some degree. I suppose, that shows how
central Disney, the man, even -- well, what is it, almost 60 years since he died, is so central to that legacy in history.
KURTTI: Well, it's absolutely true. I don't think you can think of another major corporation or a major entertainment company that relies so heavily
on the origins and philosophies of its founder. And that the name Walt Disney and the identity of Walt Disney has currency and meaning to
audiences today.
[18:55:00]
So, it's an interesting tribute, I think, to not only the man himself, but to the ideas that he put forward that created Disneyland 70 years ago.
SCIUTTO: Bob Iger, who I know personally, has tried to keep that DNA, I think, right, and reverence for Walt Disney and the company. Has he been
successful in doing that?
KURTTI: I think that you can look no farther than what we saw opening today with the new Walt Disney attraction on Main Street at Disneyland, and with
the use of the most cutting-edge technology to tell a story about Walt Disney himself.
Walt was a leader in technological innovation through his entire career. And you look at the attraction that opened today and do -- I don't think
you're going to see this wonderful presentation about Walt Disney's life turning a lot of turnstiles or influencing a lot of people's travel plans,
but it's something I think that the company didn't have to do. Bob Iger didn't have to greenlight this. But I think he sees and continues to see
the importance of the man himself and making Walt Disney more than just a brand name.
SCIUTTO: Right. Jeff Kurtti, thanks for bringing us some of the history of Disney. Appreciate it.
KURTTI: Pleased to be here. Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Thanks so much for all of you, for your company. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00]
END
