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The Brief with Jim Sciutto
Gov. Abbott Orders Arrest Of Absent Democratic Lawmakers; Israel Considers Expanding War In Gaza; Outrage Grows After Hamas Release Videos Showing Emaciated Hostages; Witkoff Expected To Visit Russia Wednesday; Trump Announcing He's Repositioning Nuclear Subs; Netherlands Buys U.S. Arms For Kyiv; The Race To Save a Wounded Ukrainian Soldier; White House Defends Trump Decision To Fire BLS Chief. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired August 04, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. And you're watching
"The Brief."
Just ahead this hour, the Governor of Texas has ordered the arrest of democratic lawmakers who left the state in order to stop Republicans
congressional map plans from redrawing districts. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is expected to call for the full conquest of Gaza at his
next meeting of his security cabinet. And the daring attempt to rescue a wounded Ukrainian soldier using a drone and an e-bike.
Our top story, this hour political battle in the U.S. State of Texas that has potential implications for the entire country. Just a few hours ago,
Republican State lawmakers authorized civil arrest warrants for dozens of Democrats who were no shows at today's special legislative session.
Governor Greg Abbott has ordered the Public Safety Department to make those arrests accusing the missing Democrats of dereliction of duty. Where did
the Democratic lawmakers go and why? They fled to other states over the past 24 hours, breaking Quorum in order to stop the Republican majority
from having enough legislators present to redraw the state's congressional map.
The redistricting is backed by President Trump and Republican officials who want to give their party an advantage in the midterm elections. U.S.
Congressional Democrats are crying foul.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): I just have to tell you that is pretty clear what President Trump is up to. He wants five new congressmen out of Texas at any
cost. I hope that we don't revert to that nationwide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: To be clear, this normally takes place at the start of decades after is -- after there is new national census data. The Texas House
speaker announced that the chamber will reconvene tomorrow at 1:00 p.m. local time.
Joining us now from Chicago is one of those Democratic members of the legislature, Christina Morales. Thanks so much for joining.
STATE REP. CHRISTINA MORALES, (D-TX): Thank you for having me.
SCIUTTO: So, first these warrants, because as I understand it breaking quorum is not a crime. So, the alleged crime here is dereliction of duty.
What are your lawyers telling you about where this goes from here?
MORALES: Well, we're certainly not criminals. This is one of the tools that we can use to defend our constituents and do what's right. And so, it's
perfect. It's one of the tools that we use. It's in our constitution, our state constitution. So, we are representing our constituents by leaving and
breaking quorum today.
SCIUTTO: The -- you would need to remain out of state for more than four months because the deadline for a new congressional map is December. Are
you and your colleagues willing and able to do that?
MORALES: We are united in a commitment to break quorum or not allow this special session to move forward until the end of it, which would be August
19th. And we're taking this one day at a time, and I'm sure we'll caucus again. We'll have a discussion and see what we do after this special
session. But for now, our commitment is to stay away until August the 19th.
SCIUTTO: Have you heard from any Republican voters or even lawmakers who opposed this move? Because it is, as we noted in the introduction, this is
not when redistricting happens, it happens after new national census data.
MORALES: Yes. So, we have heard reports that many Republican Congress members are worried about this because it's going to change their lines
too. And it could affect the outcome of their next selection as well. And personally, you know, I represent a strong Democratic district, but I have
friends who are conservative and have those conservative values.
[18:05:00]
They have been reaching out, which has been very surprising to say that they are supportive of what we are doing, that they think this is very
extreme.
SCIUTTO: Yes. What do you think the reaction might be of Texas voters to this? Because the result might very well be, if this were to get through,
the Democratic voters would effectively be disenfranchised.
MORALES: Absolutely. You know, we have gotten -- a lot of folks have reached out to our office and a lot of times we're doing our work and
people don't really understand what we're doing, but folks are understanding what is happening here.
They are going to be drawn into a different district and connected to folks that might even be hundreds of miles away. This is not what they want and
they are speaking loudly about this. And, you know, part of this not showing up today and breaking quorum is giving some time for not only
people in Texas, but people around the nation.
Every American should know that Donald Trump has asked for these five seats in Texas, and that will give him an advantage after the midterms next year
to do whatever the hell he wants. He may want to run a third term, as mentioned by Governor Newsom. Do we want that? I think people are very,
very concerned about a president having that much power.
It is an extreme power grab and Texans don't want this. And we had these hearings and 99 percent of the people who showed up spoke out against this.
So, we know we are on the right side of history.
SCIUTTO: You certainly have Democratic lawmakers around the country who are backing you here, but you also have leaders in Democratic states,
Democratic run states such as New York, Illinois, California, talking about responding by doing the same thing. And I wonder -- that is to redistrict.
Do you think that that is a fair and justified response?
MORALES: Yes. And thank you for saying it's fair and justified because we have to fight fire with fire. You know, we've heard the complaints. What
are Democrats doing? Why aren't they fighting back? Well, here we are fighting back. Truly the Texas Democrats have so much power right now to
stop this, at least delay this extreme power grab. And that's what we're going to do and that's why we have so much support from other Democratic
members of Congress, other Democratic governors. And we're so proud that they are standing up and they're supporting us and they say they're going
to fight fire with fire and do the same thing if we see this happen in Texas.
And from what I understand, there's a Republican congressman who filed a piece of legislation so that we don't do mid census redistricting. So, that
-- I find that very interesting.
SCIUTTO: The trouble is, of course, fighting fire with fire raises the question, what is the principle that Democratic -- Texas Democrats and
Democratic lawmakers around the country are fighting for? I mean, you remember the old line from Michelle Obama, when they go low, we go high. It
would seem that this might be the last gasp of that to the extent that still survives lives.
MORALES: Listen, we -- democracy is something very sacred that our country was founded on, and we've got to do whatever it takes to save it. And I
stand with my colleagues, that's what we're going to do. You know, I represent a Latino working class community in Houston, Texas, and we are
being silenced right now. We have families with mixed status and we see people from our community, in fear of being taken to Alligator Alcatraz.
We cannot let this extreme felon in the White House continue to do these horrific things to our community. And I am so proud that we're going to do
whatever it takes to stop this and fight back.
SCIUTTO: Texas State House Democrat Christina Morales, we do appreciate you joining.
MORALES: Thank you so much.
[18:10:00]
SCIUTTO: Well, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is now leaning toward further expanding the war on Gaza. Israeli media is reporting that
he will ask his security cabinet on Tuesday to support a complete takeover. This as his government votes unanimously to fire the attorney general who
is prosecuting him for corruption. Israel's Supreme Court immediately issued an injunction to block that move for now.
Joining me now is former Pentagon Middle East adviser, Jasmine El-Gamal. First on the firing of this prosecutor, because of course Netanyahu's gone
after the legal authorities for years for holding to account for alleged corruption. If he proceeds with this firing, does the Supreme Court have
the ability to block this long-term, or is this just a temporary a temporary delay?
JASMINE EL-GAMAL, FORMER PENTAGON MIDDLE EAST ADVISER, PODCAST HOST: Thank you so much for having me, Jim. I mean, we know that Benjamin Netanyahu has
been at war with the Israeli justice system, with the entire justice infrastructure for years, and everything that he does and everything that
he has done, including, according to an expose that The New York Times ran a few weeks ago, that everything that he has done in Gaza has been partly
to prolong his stay in power and to avoid that accountability that the justice system is waiting to serve to him.
And so, these moves are not surprising, but that's where one hopes that Israeli checks and balances come in, that the Supreme Court does step in.
And that public pressure, both from within Israel and of course from outside the International Community is enough to change things.
But one thing is for sure, we've seen this time and time again over the past several years, is that he will continue to keep trying to evade
accountability by taking over the justice system entirely.
SCIUTTO: Well, now he is talking about further expanding the war in Gaza. Several former military and intelligence officials sent a letter to Trump
asking for his help to pressure Netanyahu to end the war. First, it's not clear that Trump will do so, but if he were to apply such pressure, would
Netanyahu listen?
EL-GAMAL: Well, I mean, let's look at what's happened over the last 22 months. I mean, Netanyahu obviously hasn't listened to anyone. It's not
just these former military and security officials that are calling for the Trump administration to put pressure on Netanyahu to stop, it's also
hostage families.
I was speaking to one of the hostage family members earlier today and he was talking about his meetings and the group's meetings with Steve Witkoff
and their pleas to basically get the Trump administration to understand that supporting Israel does not mean supporting Netanyahu. In fact, it's
just the opposite, that continuing to give a car blanche to Netanyahu -- which by the way, Jim, we have to remember that President Biden also did,
and it's partly what's led us to this moment, that that is not only at coming at a grave cost to Palestinians, that is coming at grave cost to the
international system, the rules-based order, everything that we've been talking about for months, but also at a great cost to Israelis themselves.
And about the occupation. I mean, listen I've been in Iraq, you've covered Iraq and Afghanistan. We know what it means when a country goes in and
occupies another country under the guise of saying, we're going to complete this mission and then we'll get out. We know how difficult it is to
extricate yourself from that situation once you're in it, and the damage that's done both to local people and to the country itself.
So, this is just really bad news all around. And one hopes that the Trump administration can see that and try to put a stop to it.
SCIUTTO: Well, another factor, right, is an unclear definition as to what exactly victory is. And you've had -- you've heard that even from some
former members of Netanyahu's own government. Some Israelis have warned that an Israeli takeover of Gaza might threaten its peace agreements with
Arab nations such as Jordan.
And I wonder how should we expect Arab nations to respond if Israel were to proceed with this? Because as we should also note, there's also quite open
discussion of annexing the West Bank.
EL-GAMAL: That's right. I mean, this is really a moment when Arab countries are going to have to get together and decide how they're going to react to
this. Now, so far, Jordan and Egypt have been reluctant to take any major steps because, of course, President Trump keeps threatening them that he's
going to cut off aid to them, that he's going to help push Palestinians into their countries, which would be completely destabilizing.
[18:15:00]
I mean, in a way, the Trump administration has been holding these countries hostage, diplomatically. And so, they haven't been able to make much moves,
but they have made their fears, their concerns known. And of course, you have Saudi Arabia, which has already said that it will never move towards
normalization as long as there's no ceasefire, no permanent end to the war, no Palestinian State with East Jerusalem as its capital.
So, what you see is Israel led by this prime minister who's just hell-bent on his political survival at any cost, moving farther and farther away,
becoming more and more isolated, diplomatically, domestically, and you have to wonder where this is going to end. Of course, we're not even talking
about the extreme damage that's being done to people in Gaza, including the hostages, by the way, because of how long this war is going on and the
refusal of this Israeli government to put a permanent end to the war, even though, as you said, Jim, their military objectives vis-a-vis Hamas and
weakening Hamas was achieved months ago, months and months ago.
And so, what they're still doing there now, we have to look at what his extremist members of his cabinet are saying, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, talking
about resettling Gaza, pushing the Palestinians out. And you have to start listening to them and believing them when they say that this is what
they're actually doing.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Jasmine El-Gamal, always appreciate having you on. Thanks so much.
EL-GAMAL: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Well, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have released new just shocking propaganda videos showing Israeli hostages suffering in Gaza. We warn you
these images are simply disturbing. Evyatar David and Rom Braslavski both appeared emaciated, fragile. Hamas and its allies are still holding at
least 20 living hostages inside Gaza along with the remains of some 30 others. Protestors have been rallying in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, calling
for those hostages to be freed. Some of those protestors calling for end of the war as well.
Joining me now is Ruby Chen. He's the father of American Israeli Itay Chen still held by Hamas. Ruby, always good to have you on. Thank you.
RUBY CHEN, FATHER OF ITAY CHEN: Thank you for having me.
SCIUTTO: You and other hostage families on this broadcast and others have been calling for an end to the war really for months now. And as you know,
the prime minister is now considering expanding it and even expanding Israeli goals for complete control of Gaza. What's your response to that?
CHEN: So, I would like to take you and the audience back to October 8th where I think all of the International Community and of course the United
States were behind Israel to seek justice and get back its hostages. And the prime minister, you know, his task was to collect the fact that 250 of
the Israeli citizens were taken hostage.
And two years later, you know, we're in a much different place. The prime minister has not succeeded in the task of getting hostages back. At least
50 families are still waiting. And I, you know, look at the administration that six months has -- have been in office and looking at what all the
strategic interests of the United States and the Middle East.
And I hope that this administration also is asking itself, how do we achieve the goals that we have for the Middle East, which is end of
conflict and bringing prosperity and what's holding it up and how do we execute on it? Because President Trump wants to be, you know, one of the
best presidents out there and cementing his legacy. And six months have passed by and I hope also the United States is thinking about what is the
best cause of action going forward.
SCIUTTO: To that point, a number of former senior Israeli officials -- intelligence officials, military commanders have written a letter to
President Trump asking, like you have many times, for him to intervene to end this war. Do you believe that he has the power and influence to do so
with the Israeli prime minister? Because we have seen the Israeli prime minister go his own way, even in the face at times of American opposition.
CHEN: Yes. I'll tell you Jim, you know, the most popular person in the State of Israel, you know who he is? It's President Trump. Why? He
delivered. He delivered on Iran. He delivered with giving the Israeli's weapons. And when you look at the prime minister, he has less delivered on
his promises, which is getting the hostages back and being able to make sure that October 7th does not happen again, according to him.
[18:20:00]
So, I think that the president has a lot of political capital, not only in Israel, but in the Middle East. And the question is, what do you do with
that political capital? You leverage it, to cement the objectives that the administration has in front of them. And as time passes by, you lose that
political capital.
So, everyone has kind of like a clock ticking and needing to do what it need -- what they need to do in order to execute on their plan. So, I think
that the president indeed has that ability. He still has a lot of political capital, not just in his Israel, but with Arab countries as well. And the
question is, what is the vision of this administration for the Middle East and executing on it?
SCIUTTO: The videos that Hamas and Islamic Jihad released, which were just gut-wrenching, have caused quite a reaction inside Israel. And it does --
an understandable one, and it does seem that the Israeli prime minister is reacting to that, you know, in a new push to expand the war. There are many
Israelis like yourself who've gone grown -- exhausted with the war and want to see an end to it. I just wonder -- and among them, you know, hostage
families like yourself, many of them, because they want their loved ones home.
Do you still believe the Israeli public is with you? Do you believe these videos could turn them to support the prime minister?
CHEN: I think everyone was highly disturbed in what, you know, we saw. And again, six months have gone by with a game plan that the Trump
administration inherited from the previous administration. They were convinced by Prime Minister Netanyahu that this is the best way going
forward. And it took the Trump administration and Mr. Witkoff six months to figure out that we need a different plan.
And if you see those hostages on the videos, they don't have another six months for a trial and error of looking at a new game plan and seeing what
comes up. They don't have six weeks, maybe not even six days. So, we need a very quick resolution of getting to that ceasefire, that permanent
ceasefire that was agreed upon in May, 2024 and getting all the hostages out and then figuring out together collectively with the International
Community and the United States, what is the future of Gaza?
And -- but that should be decoupled. It should be a prerequisite is getting the hostages out, that ceasefire and then we could talk about the other
stuff.
SCIUTTO: Well, Ruby Chen, I hope you and your family finally get your son Itay home. As always, I appreciate you joining.
CHEN: Thanks, Jim. God bless.
SCIUTTO: Well, coming up on "The Brief," just a remarkable rescue. How a drone and an electric bicycle helps save a Ukrainian soldier trapped behind
enemy lines.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:25:00]
SCIUTTO: The White House says President Trump's special envoy, Steve Witkoff, will visit Moscow on Wednesday. U.S. president has given Russian
leader Vladimir Putin until Friday to reach a peace deal with Ukraine, threatening new sanctions if no agreement is made. President Trump also
ordered the repositioning of two U.S. nuclear submarines following incendiary comments by former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev. The
Kremlin responded, everyone should be extremely careful with nuclear rhetoric, they said.
Frederik Pleitgen is in Moscow with more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Russian and Chinese warships side by side in a major show of force.
Military drills and anti-submarine warfare just days after President Trump says he repositioned U.S. nuclear subs following threats from Russia's
former president.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: And a threat was made and we didn't think it was appropriate. So, I have to be very careful. So, I do that on the basis
of safety for our people.
PLEITGEN: With the once cozy relations between President Trump and Russian leader of Vladimir Putin recently taking a nose dive, Trump threatening
massive sanctions by the end of this week. There's no ceasefire in Ukraine. Moscow eager to end the nuclear saber ratting.
We're extremely cautious with any statements regarding nuclear issues, the Kremlin spokesman says. As you know, Russia maintains a responsible
position.
But Kremlin controlled TV not so much, frequently touting Russia's massive nuclear arsenal like this well-known host last year.
DMITRY KISELEV, RUSSIAN TV PRESENTER (through translator): So, the main question is, will Russia use it? And there is a clear answer, it will use
it. The conflict with the west of Ukraine is growing so much that for Russia, it is already a matter of life and death.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): And Putin himself put Russian nuclear forces on alert just days after launching what he calls the special military
operation in Ukraine in 2022 in response to Western criticism.
VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Top officials of leading NATO countries are indulging in aggressive statements directed at
our country. Therefore, I order the minister of defense and chief of the general staff to put Russia's army deterrence forces on high combat alert.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): On Moscow streets, folks telling us, President Trump's nuclear moves and sanctions threats don't scare them.
PLEITGEN (through translator): Trump said he wanted better relationship with Russia, a trade deal, lifting of sanctions, flights between the U.S.
and Russia and now he is sending nuclear submarines because of the escalation between the U.S. and Russia.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Look, I think he says one thing and does something else, and he predicts the future developments based on
something completely different.
PLEITGEN (through translator): Trump said that if no ceasefire is reached in Ukraine, he will impose stronger sanctions in Russia. Are you worried?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, I am not worried about this. I live in my country and I know it will protect itself and those who it
promises to care for.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Your sanctions are useless. Everything is still fine.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): But even as the Kremlin touts its gains on the battlefield in Ukraine, Moscow claims its keen to engage in diplomacy with
the Trump administration.
Frederik Pleitgen, CNN, Moscow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: The Netherlands has announced a donation of some $600 million to provide U.S.-made weapons to Ukraine. The Dutch defense minister says the
shipment would include, and this is crucial, Patriot missiles and parts. This is the first contribution to a new NATO mechanism designed to supply
Kyiv with U.S-made weapons.
[18:30:00]
Back in July, President Donald Trump said he had struck a deal with NATO for Washington to send weapons to Ukraine, but NATO allies to pay the bill.
And in Ukraine, just an incredible survival story. A wounded Ukrainian soldier stuck behind enemy lines was sent an electric bike delivered by
drone to escape the battlefield. Nick Paton Walsh breaks down the remarkable rescue.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR (voice-over): This Russian assault, brutal, even throwing land mines into the bunkers, had
left all three of his fellow soldiers' dead in the trench next to him.
And Andriy, with his leg wounded, unable to run, thought like so many Ukrainian soldiers in tiny isolated positions pinned down by Russian drones
that he was done.
ANDRIY, RUBIZ BRIDGADE (through translator): I didn't think I would get out of there because I couldn't move. My leg was seriously injured. I couldn't
walk.
WALSH (voice-over): But back at his command bunker watching on drones, they had an idea. Maybe Andriy had the strength to cycle out. So, they attached
an electric bicycle to a drone like this, moving it slowly, perilously in pieces to the front. It was dropped to Andriy whole, and then remarkably,
he cycled out.
ANDRIY (through translator): I thought, do or die. Either I make it or I don't. I was just riding in one direction. Whatever happens, happens. If I
make it, good. If I don't, so be it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Come on, "Tankist." Speed up, speed up. As fast as you can. As fast as you can.
WALSH (voice-over): The Ukrainians who try to ensure the skies were free of Russian drones, but that wasn't enough. Andriy hit a landmine. The drone
operator's heart sank, had it all come to nothing. But then this tiny figure emerged limping out of the smoke, somehow alive, walking on his
bandaged leg visible.
ANDRIY (through translator): It grazed my forehead a bit. The wheel and fork were torn apart, but I was fine. I just fell on my side. That's all.
WALSH (voice-over): Greeted by a Ukrainian and helped into another bunker where he had to wait two more days for rescue. Necessity is the mother of
invention in Ukraine, but nothing can beat luck.
Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Kyiv, Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Just a remarkable rescue story. Still ahead, the battle over economic data for the largest economy in the world. President Trump and the
White House defend his firing of the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics based on uncorroborated charges of politicizing the data. We're going to
have more coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:35:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto. Here are more international headlines we're watching today.
An Israeli official says that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is now leaning toward further escalating the war in Gaza, adding that Netanyahu
wants to free the hostages through a military defeat of Hamas, which he's long promised. Israel accuses the militant group of abandoning ceasefire
talks. Hamas is demanding the Gaza humanitarian crisis is addressed before negotiations could resume.
The Brazilian Supreme Court has ordered the house arrest of former President Jair Bolsonaro, currently standing trial over an alleged coup
plot. The high court says that Bolsonaro is not complying with court ordered restrictions on his conduct by posting content on his son's social
media accounts. Bolsonaro is charged with plotting a coup after his loss in Brazil's 2022 presidential election. He denies wrongdoing.
South Korea is now removing loudspeakers along its border with the North in an effort to ease tensions between the two countries. South Korea had used
those speakers to blast anti-North Korean broadcast. This comes as new South Korean president, Lee Jae Myung, seeks to revive stall dialogue with
Pyongyang.
On Wall Street, U.S. stocks gained back some of their steep losses on Friday. Tech stocks, the best performers. Stocks fell on Friday after
President Trump announced higher tariffs. And a new jobs report showed a dramatic slowdown in hiring in the U.S. That led Trump to then fire the
head of Bureau -- the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which keeps tabs on the job market and other economic data.
Trump claims, without providing any evidence, that that data was somehow manipulated. He now says he will name a new BLS chief in the coming few
days, claiming the old boss and appoint appointee of President. Biden manipulated that data to make him look bad. White House economic adviser
Kevin Hassett is defending Trump's decision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: When the data are unreliable, when they keep being revised all over the place, then they're
going to be people that wonder if there's a partisan pattern in the data. And so, I think what we need is a fresh set of eyes at the BLS, somebody
who can clean this thing up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Trump did not object to earlier jobs reports that showed job growth. Former BLS had William Beach, who served under Trump on his first
term says there is no evidence the system needs changing or cleaning up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BEACH, FORMER COMMISSIONER, BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS: Studies show that BLS is getting a-- doing a better job now than they did 20 years
ago -- 20 and 30 years ago in estimating the first number. So, even those, it's revised two more times that 73,000 will be revised two more times, and
that's -- they're more accurate now than they were 30 years ago. So, I said groundless. I don't think there's any grounds at all for this firing, and
it really hurts the statistical system. It undermines credibility in BLS.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: As for the meaning of that jobs report, Moody's economist Mark Zandi says it is further evidence the U.S. economy is in his words, on the
precipice of a recession.
President Trump today threatened India with substantially higher tariffs unless it stops buying oil from Russia. India is defending those purchases
saying they help stabilize -- help ensure affordable energy to U.S. citizens by stabilizing the oil market, It says the U.S. actively
encouraged the buying when the Ukraine war started to help steady those markets. President Trump has already announced a 25 percent tariff rate on
India, which will take effect, he says, later this week. The E.U. says it will hold off on raising tariffs on U.S. goods for six months to allow more
time for trade negotiations between the two sides.
Lots to talk about. Global economic analyst Ranna Faroohar joins me now. Thanks so much for coming on.
[18:40:00]
RANA FAROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST AND ASSOCIATE EDITOR, FINANCIAL TIMES: Yes, thank you.
SCIUTTO: So, I'm going to begin with a big picture question first. Is this jobs data an early sign that the tariffs are hurting U.S. economic growth?
And I wonder, are you seeing other similar indicators?
FAROOHAR: So, I think it's an early sign that we're possibly heading for a recession. That's something I've been thinking that we were headed towards
for some time now. I mean, if you look back historically and discount the COVID downturn, we're several years over for recession. So, it's not
unusual, but it should be happening.
The tailwind of this is probably tariffs. You have companies in a very, very no hire, no fire kind of moment. You know, even when demand is there,
they're just not hiring more people. And now, you're really starting to get that bite of tariffs being real, tariffs starting to filter through the
supply chain.
I am starting to see anecdotal data from around the country and just, you know, sources telling me, particularly small and mid-sized businesses are
having a hard time. Many of them are struggling to stay afloat. So, it's not unexpected. And I also don't think it's political. I think it's
probably where -- exactly where we are right now.
SCIUTTO: The trouble is, as with so many things, whether that be lost elections or contrary intelligence assessments or now jobs data, Trump is
claiming it's rigged, right, if it doesn't look good for him. Can you see a scenario where if this recession or negative or economic downturn pan --
turn pans out, that Trump just claims, you know, jobs data, economic growth data, you name it, is just flat out wrong and politically motivated and
therefore, folks have difficulty measuring it?
FAROOHAR: Absolutely. I mean, I think that's exactly what you're seeing. You know, we started with the politicization of the Fed, which is meant to
be an independent body. We've now got this firing. We've got questioning of data, and this is all part of a -- kind of a post-truth world, frankly,
that the president has been hoisting on the public.
It's very worrisome though because there are a lot of countries, other countries, where this happens. A lot of emerging markets. Nobody can trust
the data. That's why their borrowing costs are a lot higher. That's why people don't want to go into those markets. And that has conversely been a
reason that a lot of money has always flowed into the U.S. But you're seeing now a sense that, wait a minute, this Teflon economy that the U.S.
has had, this sense that we, you know, you can trust what's happening here, you can trust the figures, that's going away.
And I would not be surprised if the market, the combination of tariffs and that sense of political risk caused a correction at some point.
SCIUTTO: And there's bad historical precedent here, like Greece falsifying deficit data for a number of years, which exacerbated its own debt crisis.
Argentina falsifying inflation data. China at least coloring its GDP growth. I suppose the question is, when are we going to see some
consequences for this, right? I mean, you have investors who invest, you know, billions and trillions of dollars in the U.S. market based in part on
an accurate assessment of where the economy stands or what the outlook is for those companies that they're buying stock in. CEOs have to make
business decisions.
I mean, the market is still, you know, setting records every day when -- you know, when does someone pay for this?
FAROOHAR: Yes. It's a great question. And you know, a lot of proponents of the president would say, well, people have been, you know, crying wolf
since April and we're still in a pretty good economy. What I will say is that a number of the large investment banks that do a lot of wealth
management for wealthy individuals are starting to say, you know what, get ready, hang onto your hat because a 15 percent correction is maybe coming
down the pike for stocks.
In a longer-term way, we've been seeing, not just in this administration, but since Trump won a pullback of international investors, there have been
fewer and fewer international investors who us lining up to buy UST bills since Trump came into office the first time because of the sense of
increased political risk. Gold is at record highs because of political risk.
I think the reason we haven't seen a stronger reaction yet in the market is that Europe is still a little bit lackadaisical in terms of growth, haven't
really got their political act together. And China is unknowable in part because you can't trust the data and we don't have good intelligence of
what's happening in the country, which is unfortunately where the U.S. is, seems to be heading.
SCIUTTO: Remarkable to imagine, but here we are. Rana Faroohar, thanks so much.
FAROOHAR: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Still to come a Dream Paris apartment at a bargain price, but there's a big catch. We're going to explain the real estate scheme that's
becoming more popular as Costco up there,
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:45:00]
SCIUTTO: Turning now to home ownership in France with a big catch thanks to a centuries old property scheme called viager. Elderly homeowners sell
their properties below market value while getting to remain in their home until they pass away. Saskya Vandoorne explains this remarkable real estate
approach.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SASKYA VANDOORNE, CNN PARIS BUREAU CHIEF: On the day that Andre dies, will he be pleased that you'll be able to move in?
Buying an apartment in Paris isn't cheap, but there's a quirky, slightly morbid loophole that could land you on at half the price. You're
essentially betting on how long the seller is going to stick around. It's known as Viager.
VANDOORNE (voice-over): Ylla was hoping to finally buy a dream home in Paris. After nearly a year of searching, she found a gorgeous south facing
place for half the price of the others.
YLLA HERON, BUYER: And I think it's really well arranged.
ANDRE HELMAN, SELLER: For such a small apartment, it's exceptional.
VANDOORNE (voice-over): This place is owned by Andre who has no intention of moving out.
HELMAN: I needed the money and I needed the place. So, this system allowed me to stay here as long as I wanted and get the money I needed
VANDOORNE (voice-over): To buy Andre's apartment, Ylla gave him a single deposit in the range of 200,000 euros.
HELMAN: Once a year there is a party here, the neighbor's party. It's very pleasant.
VANDOORNE (voice-over): But in a typical viager, a buyer pays an upfront sum and then small monthly payments to the seller who keeps living in the
home until they die. Viager sales make up just 1 percent of the French property market, but interest surged during COVID, and it's not just locals
rolling the dice, more and more foreign buyers are getting in on the gamble too. Homa Raevel, an American-Iranian, already has four viager homes for
her kids and she's eyeing her fists.
HOMA RAEVEL, BUYER: I think in the beginning, friends and family were like, oh, really? You got involved with that? But this is helping the person,
like, I mean, this is a comfortable situation for them.
VANDOORNE (voice-over): But it's quite a bet, the longer the seller lives, the more you end up paying. And that upfront discount starts to shrink.
VANDOORNE: And you are comfortable with it being a gamble?
HELMAN: Oh, quite. After my death, I really don't worry about myself. The gamble is mainly for the owner.
[18:50:00]
VANDOORNE (voice-over): It's all remarkably transparent. Listings don't just include the seller's age, they often estimate their life expectancy
too.
Most cases are uneventful, but in one instance, a buyer was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in a case involving madeleine and the death of an
elderly seller.
VANDOORNE: So, does it take a special type of person or a special type of mindset to accept the viager system?
HELMAN: Because of the death issue, I think that's why people are feeling uncomfortable. It's not my case. As I said, I'm very lucky.
HELMAN (through translator): I'm really happy to have met you like this. I'm delighted.
HELMAN: For me, death is not an issue. It's just the end of life, and it's OK.
VANDOORNE: Saskya Vandoorne, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Quite a way to make a deal. Still ahead, a mass of young people for a very important papal mass. We're going to show you Pope Leo's
Rockstar reception at the Jubilee of Youth.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Pope Leo addressed the largest audience of his young papacy so far in an event dubbed the Catholic Woodstock. The Vatican's Jubilee of Youth
attracted hundreds of thousands of young pilgrims to Rome. CNN's Christopher Lamb was there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Rockstar welcome for Pope Leo greeting an endless sea of crowds from every corner of
the globe at a mega youth gathering in Rome. The first American pontiff facing a big test whether he can inspire the church's future generation.
LAMB: Pope Leo has arrived on the main stage at Tor Vergata. People are giving him a rapturous welcome, cheering.
LAMB (voice-over): Leo, both embracing the young people's enthusiasm but also ensuring moments of quiet contemplation, talking directly to them.
POPE LEO XIV, LEADER OF CATHOLIC CHURCH: Dear young people, Jesus is the friend who always accompanies us in the formation of our conscience, seek
justice in order to build a more humane world.
LAMB (voice-over): For the young pilgrims, it's been a week-long jamboree of music and fellowship in a festival atmosphere and the excitement was
contagious even for the cardinals. The Vatican says people from 146 countries flocked to the Eternal City from as far as South Korea where the
next big youth meeting will take place.
JEAHUN LEE FRANCISCO, SOUTH KOREAN PILGRIM: I wanted to meet a lot of people from around the world who believe in the same religion as me and do
praise together. The religion brings people together.
LAMB (voice-over): And some came from New Mexico, one of the frontline states of U.S. President Donald Trump's immigration crackdown. They want
the Pope to stand with immigrants.
DAMIAN HERNANDEZ, U.S. PILGRIM: I think that's very important for him to welcome many new people from many new countries, many new places so they
can come experience it all.
LAMB: Particularly given what's happening.
HERNANDEZ: Yes, particularly from what's happening in the United States with other deportations and all of that.
[18:55:00]
LAMB (voice-over): But connecting with young people today means the church must reach beyond the pews. With some research showing Gen Z are interested
in Catholicism. Theology student Nicola Camporiondo said says his mission is to help make faith more visible online.
NICOLA CAMPORIONDO, CATHOLIC INFLUENCER (through translator): It is important to me because young people of my age need to not feel alone. And
so, the videos I make on social media encourage young people to not be ashamed of practicing their faith.
LAMB (voice-over): Many camping out under the stars at the site so they could catch another glimpse of the Pope in the morning.
POPE LEO: Good morning. Buenos dias.
LAMB (voice-over): With more than a million turning out for Sunday mass with Leo, this was the largest event of his nearly three-month papacy.
POPE LEO: God bless you all.
LAMB (voice-over): And his authenticity and quiet charisma helped him connect with the crowd. As they prepared to go home, Leo urged them to
remember those suffering, stressing that the young pilgrims are a sign a different world is possible.
POPE LEO: We are with the young people of Gaza. We are with the young people of Ukraine.
LAMB (voice-over): Leo, chosen as pontiff at a turbulent time in history and while still adjusting to the limelight, seems to enjoy being Pope.
Christopher Lamb, CNN, Rome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: A sign a different world is possible, he says.
Thanks so much for your company. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching. "The Brief." Please do stay with CNN.
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