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The Brief with Jim Sciutto

CNN International: Horrific Mass Shooting at School Mass in Minnesota; At Least Two Children Killed During Catholic School Mass; Shooting "Act of Domestic Terrorism"; Minnesota is the 44th Shooting in U.S. of 2025; All UNSC Members Expect U.S. Call for Gaza Ceasefire; Denmark Summons U.S. Envoy Over Alleged Greenland Operations; Witkoff "Hopeful" About Ukraine-Russia Peace Deal. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired August 27, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. And

you're watching "The Brief."

Just ahead this hour, an all too familiar American headline. Two children aged just eight and 10 are dead after a shooter opened fire on Catholic

school students who were praying at a mass. The shooter fired a rifle, a shotgun, and a pistol through church windows in Minneapolis. He injured 17

people. In the search for answers, if there are any, the FBI says, the shooter identified as Robin Westman, purchased weapons legally and acted

alone. It's now investigating this as an act of domestic terrorism.

Also, today, U.S. Special Envoy Steve Witkoff says he's hopeful that Ukraine and Russia will reach a peace agreement by the end of this year,

not clear what the cause for optimism is.

First, a horrific school shooting here in the U.S. in yet another chapter in the ongoing and uniquely American tragedy of gun violence. A shooter

opened fired at a Catholic school in Minneapolis, killing at least two children, injuring 17 people, most of them students as well. The shooter

fired through the windows of the school church during a morning mass. That mass was marking the first week of class. A 10-year-old student says his

friend used his own body to shield him from the bullets. Just some of the horror that these children witnessed,

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WESTON HALSNE, FIFTH GRADER, ANNUNCIATION CATHOLIC SCHOOL: It was like right beside me. I was like two seats away from the stained-glass windows.

So, they were like -- the shots were like right next to me. The first one, I was like, what is that? I thought it was just something. Then I heard it

again and I just ran under the pew and then I covered my head. My friend Victor like saved me though because he laid on top of me, but he got hit.

He's really brave and I hope he is good in the hospital.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: What kids have to witness. Police say the shooter is now been identified as 23-year-old Robin Westman. Westman died of a self-inflicted

gunshot wound.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF BRIAN O'HARA, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT: We are also aware of a manifesto that the shooter had timed to be released on YouTube. This

manifesto appeared to show him at the scene and included some disturbing writings. That content has since been taken down with the assistance of the

FBI, and it now remains under active review by our investigators.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Whitney Wild is at the scene in Minneapolis. And, Whitney, of the many shocking details that come out after an event like this one, that

stuck in my mind was the screams that two adults who went in and first witnessed the aftermath of this that were heard outside the church there.

How was the community responding now from people you talk to there?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Jim, this a time when the community rallies together. Let me tell you a little bit about the school

to give you some broader context of how the school moves forward after a tragedy like this. This church was founded in 1875. The school was founded

a short time after that. This a tight-knit community. Some of the children who go to school here are descendants of the families who founded this

church. This a very tight-knit community.

Even some of the neighbors here, Jim, have said that even if you weren't a part of the church, if you were not a parishioner, if you were not a

student, you felt a part of the community because this church was so deeply ingrained in this neighborhood.

As you heard principal Matt DeBoer say earlier today, that the community has to come together. They -- as they started the school year, Jim, you

know, a lot of Catholic schools pick a theme. And this year, the Catholic - - this Catholic school, Annunciation, picked the theme hope. And principal Matt DeBoer said that that -- it is so hard in these moments to find hope.

Well, you have to clinging to it. Here's more from Principal Matt DeBoer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW DEBOER, PRINCIPAL, ANNUNCIATION CATHOLIC SCHOOL: We lost two angels today, and please continue to pray for those still receiving care. We can't

change the past, but we can do something about the future.

[18:05:00]

There's an African proverb that says, when you pray, move your feet. So, I beg you, I ask you to please pray, but don't stop with your words, let's

make a difference and support this community, these children, these families, these teachers. Never again can we let this happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILD: Jim, he kept saying over and over, he wanted everyone watching to say out loud, to put on their own tongue the words, never again. We know that

Pope Leo has reached out directly to the archbishop here. He is familiar with this area, Jim. As he was coming up as a priest, he spent some time

here at one of the hospitals here developing his journey as a priest. So, he's familiar with this area. Again, he reached out directly to the

archbishop here who -- and expressed just a gut-wrenching profound sadness for the tragedy here today, Jim.

SCIUTTO: So, we now know that the shooter purchased his weapons legally, but also had this manifesto. Were there any prior encounters with law

enforcement or warnings or public comments that might have raised warnings prior to today?

WILD: There was very little that was -- that's in the public record that would have prompted a law enforcement response, Jim. And this exactly the

type of lone wolf style attack that law enforcement really worries about. Our investigative team has been able to do a really deep dive into these

videos that were posted online that appeared to be connected to the shooter. And what our team has found is that they are rambling, they

represent sort of an irrational mix of, you know, political ideas and political ideologies.

For example, some of the videos show what appears to be, you know, possibly the gunman, paging through a handwritten notebook. And further on some of

the, you know, pieces of weapons that he had, some of the magazines, there were, it appears, you know, racial slurs, you know, really crass language,

some of it included language that said kill Donald Trump.

There is quite often happens in cases like this, Jim, it is hard to describe a specific motivation because in the twisted mind, the logic is

sort of all over the place. And so, what this manifesto shows is that this sort of scattered -- these scattered emotions, some moments at the top of

the writings, Jim, it says, I love you. You know, it says, I love my family. I'm sorry. But at the same time, it appears that there's a written

diagram of the church.

And so, Jim, this all, you know, sort of a long way of saying that these videos were rambling. It is difficult for law enforcement to really make

heads or tails of what the specific motivation here was. But what they are -- what is clear now based on our investigation is that he's a graduate of

this school. That's what we've found in a yearbook and that his mother had worked here at some point, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Tied to the school, notable. Whitney Wild in Minneapolis, thanks so much. In the wake, President Trump ordered flags to be flown at half-

staff on all public buildings from today until Sunday evening. Shortly after the shooting, he posted the following on social media, I've been

fully briefed on the tragic shooting in Minneapolis, Minnesota. The FBI quickly responded, and they are on the scene. The White House will continue

to monitor this terrible situation. Please join me in praying for everyone involved.

In response to that, the mayor of Minneapolis, Jacob Frey, said in quite emotional terms that he wants far more than just prayers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACOB FREY, MINNEAPOLIS MAYOR: And don't just say this about thoughts and prayers right now. These kids were literally praying. It was the first week

of school. They were in a church. These are kids that should be learning with their friends. They should be playing on the playground. They should

be able to go to school or church in peace without the fear or risk of violence, and their parents should have the same kind of assurance. These

are the sort of basic assurances that every family should have every step of the day, regardless of where they are in our country.

Do not think of these as just somebody else's kids. Those families are suffering immense pain right now. Think of this as if it were your own.

Every one of us needs to be wrapping our arms around these families, giving them every ounce that we can muster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Moving words. Joining me now is CNN Senior National Security Analyst Juliette Kayyem. Picture (ph) yourself in the Department of

Homeland Security. Juliet, you and I have talked about more shootings than I could count. It -- and it's -- I mean, they're all different. There are

different victims. And yet, many of the circumstances are the same. And one thing that stood out to me that here is someone clearly troubled who bought

three weapons legally, also a lone wolf.

[18:10:00]

And Whitney Wild mentioned that. It didn't work with someone else, which makes it harder for there to be warning signs to spot in advance. Isn't

that right?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: That's exactly right. And I, and that's why a lot of people who are experts in gun

violence and issues around gun prevention are beginning to really focus on the need for interventions by communities, family members, others who are

seeing what's going on, seeing the manifestos, whatever's put on YouTube, the calls for help, and finding ways to support those interventions.

Because as we know, in the United States, there's not likely to be a greater gun control measures in the near or even long-term -- in the long-

term. But there are things that can be done to try to stop these mass shootings. We're beginning to learn, one of course is access to guns, but

the other is these kinds of interventions. And that's what's interesting, or at least something that I'm looking at in this investigation, is like,

there seems to be a lot of notice. There is a lot of performative aspects of it.

So, while we think of the killer as a lone wolf, they're actually communicating to their network. And are there ways that we can better

intervene when we see that happening?

SCIUTTO: As you're aware, the one piece of legislation, it's not gun control, but gun violence related that got through was this red flag law,

right? The intention being, look for red flags and then prevent those people from being able to get guns. Has anything from that step worked in

the last couple of years? Have we seen evidence? I mean, it sometimes it may be hard to quantify. So, what evidence have we seen?

KAYYEM: It's -- I mean, it's hard to quantify the negative, right? There wasn't a school shooting, but what we have seen in a number of these

instances is people who are stopped because of red flag laws admit or confess or not being prosecuted or say I was planning on doing this, or I

was in that kind of state.

This honestly no different than what you sometimes hear from people with failed suicides that they -- that they're -- that they think they want to

do something and then need an intervention. This isn't in every case, not all cases have someone who may be changeable, but we do know from the red

flag laws and even the yellow flag laws, which are less strict -- or less - - which are more strict, it's harder to turn someone in, all of those have had -- been beneficial.

And I cannot find a logical reason why more states would not get pretty aggressive with this because, you know, it requires a judicial

determination, it requires a family member or a police officer saying, we are worried about gun ownership or -- by this person. And it's a really

important tool short of greater gun regulations in this country.

SCIUTTO: Maybe not a logical reason, but certainly a political reason, right. Gun lobby.

KAYYEM: That's right.

SCIUTTO: It works. Juliette Kayyem, thanks so much.

KAYYEM: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Well, joining us now from the Hague in the Netherlands is security and terrorism expert Glenn Schoen. Glenn, thanks so much for joining. It's

an American phenomenon that we have to cover and the American public has to see and witness and experience with far too much frequency. Just a very

basic question to begin with, because in the wake of these shootings, nature of the politics in this country is that folks can't even agree on

the phenomenon or the causes.

Republicans -- most Republicans will point their finger at everything but guns as the reason that the U.S. has more of these by far than any other

country in the world. In your view, what do the facts show as to what are the main reasons for the huge disparity between mass shootings in this

country versus what you see in Europe and the rest of the world?

GLENN SCHOEN, SECURITY AND TERRORISM EXPERT AND SECURITY MANAGEMENT CONSULTANT: Well, I think one undeniably is indeed firearms access.

Secondarily, I would say mental healthcare or facets thereof. So, when we look at Europe and sort of the model for that, Juliette just described, you

know, the approaches that are being tried the last few years with different sets of tools in the United States, similar ones, by the way, are being

used in Europe.

But do you have a system there of tighter social care around education, around family care. and around mental health care in general, also for

adults? So, is your chance in Europe of people being recognized for showing indicators that they might be having suicidal thoughts and this sort of

thing? That system is simply a bit tighter than it is in the U.S.

[18:15:00]

U.S. is also, of course, a little bit more of an individualistic society, if you will. And here, the social care system, on the one side, they put a

heavy emphasis on prevention, but also the treatment. So, looking at, you know, how can we make sure that people don't go further with these kinds of

thoughts and then -- and don't derail.

But, you know, make no mistake about it, of course, Europe has its tragedies as well. We've seen them in the last year in Prague and recent

years in France and Britain and other countries.

SCIUTTO: Sure. I mean, the trouble is though, the truth is when you show the statistics that the incidents in the U.S. is just an order of magnitude

bigger than Europe or other countries. Can you bring that down in a measurable way without addressing guns?

I mean, does the approach that the U.S. has effectively settled on, which is to trim around the edges based on everything but guns, right, mental

health care, you know, better sharing of information between, say, you know, families and schools or folks in the community leaning on the

community, leaning on parents, et cetera? Can you actually bring that enormous disparity down without addressing the availability of guns?

SCHOEN: Well, I think in one area it's at least being attempted the last few years, and that's the security industry. And I mean this in a positive

sense of security professionals not looking at just, you know, can we prevent the action from happening and looking at the psychological or the

monitoring through social media, which may succeed or not, or have privacy restraints? But literally, can we secure places like schools or churches

better, physical security programs, simple practical steps? Can we hire a guard for when we have a larger crowd there during a service or at a school

at the moment where people are arriving or departing? Can we be better about securing the doors?

We understand that maybe that would be a blessing in this incident that a number of doors were locked and the shooter apparently fired from the

outside and did not go in. And this physical security is, by the way, being driven by different American associations, if we think about as is

international, houses of worship, security committee, they're setting up guidance. And one of the challenges they have in the U.S. is we're not at

the moment working early towards hard standards or hard regulations yet.

A lot of guidance, positive guidance being developed, but no standards yet. And until we start pushing that, I think we're going to, unfortunately, see

more of this. What it'll do is maybe not stop the number of incidents, but drive down the number of casualties.

SCIUTTO: Yes. The locked door is notable because I'm thinking of other shootings in the past where the shooter was able to access the school via

an open door. Glenn Schoen, thanks so much for joining us.

SCHOEN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still to come on "The Brief," discussions about the future of Gaza in Washington today, even though we have yet to see any concrete progress

on a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas and the suffering in Gaza continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:20:00]

SCIUTTO: The war in Gaza very much front and center today here in Washington, D.C.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Secretary, will you (INAUDIBLE) the killing of journalists and civilians in Gaza?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: That's the U.S. secretary of state, Marco Rubio, and Israel's foreign minister, Gideon Sa'ar, ignoring questions from reporters about

Israel's killing of civilians and journalists in Gaza. At the White House, sources say President Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, as well as former

U.K. prime minister Tony Blair joined a meeting on post-war plans for Gaza.

At the U.N., every member of the Security Council, except the U.S., called for a ceasefire and expressed alarm about the famine there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRISHALA PERSAUD, GUYANA'S DEPUTY PERMANENT REPRESENTATIVE TO THE U.N.: This the first time famine has been officially confirmed in the Middle East

region. Every day, more persons are dying as a result of malnutrition. Many of them children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: While the White House revealed little about its meeting on Gaza with perhaps a focus on the post-war situation, the everyday reality today

is miserable and deadly, and with no concrete progress on a ceasefire, the suffering is only growing. Israeli military operations are in fact

expanding, as yet one more deadly attack on civilians demonstrated. Paula Hancocks has exclusive reporting on Israel's back-to-back or double-tap

strikes at the Nasser Hospital. Her report, as so often we have to note, includes new video that reveals new details about what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A live Reuters feed of the Gazan City of Khan Younis at 10:08 a.m., the shot

freezes and the sound drops. Israel has targeted the fourth floor of the Nasser Hospital where the camera stood. Reuters cameraman, Hussam al-Masri,

is killed.

Emergency and health workers rushed to the scene along with journalists from a ground floor media tent. It is all broadcast live by AlGhad TV from

the street below. The damaged camera and live streaming unit are held up and shown to the crowd. Visible on the staircase is Mariam Abu Daqqa

working for AP. Al Jazeera cameraman, Mohammed Salama, and freelance journalist, Moaz Abu Taha, in the final moments of their lives.

Reuters cameraman, Hatem Omar, seen here in a red T-shirt, films the scene on his phone. A rescue worker says they carried two body bags down. As they

gathered remains of a third body, there was a second explosion. It was 10:17 a.m., nine minutes after the first strike. Footage filmed seconds

later is two horrific to show. Lifeless bodies piled on top of each other.

New video obtained by CNN reveals that this second explosion was in fact two near simultaneous strikes. The second and third strikes less than a

second apart, appear to have caused most of the deaths. One weapons expert says, quote, "It suggests a more carefully coordinated attack rather than a

single vehicle firing at a target of opportunity."

DR. MOHAMMAD SAQER, DIRECTOR OF NURSING, NASSER MEDICAL COMPLEX: What is the point of waiting the humanitarian and medical staff to arrive to a

specific area and target them once they arrive?

HANCOCKS (voice-over): Israeli statements have evolved over the past 48 hours. Israel's prime minister called the deaths a, quote, "tragic mishap."

The IDF now says it was targeting a camera, quote, "positioned by Hamas in the area of the Nasser Hospital that was being used to observe the activity

of IDF troops."

[18:25:00]

No evidence was offered. The IDF claims six terrorists were killed, disputed by Hamas and health officials in Gaza. The IDF has not addressed

the double strike. Adding gaps will be examined, including the decision- making process and approved munition.

Satellite images show Israeli combat vehicles, including tanks stationed nearby the hospital. An Israeli security official tells CNN, the military

fired on the hospital with tank shells. The staircase was often used as a live camera position by Reuters, AP, and other global media outlets with

international media kept out by Israel, local journalists grouped together here, searching for cell signal to feed their material to the world.

The last functioning hospital in Southern Gaza already struck multiple times. The United Nations says, targeting hospitals, journalists, and

rescue workers is forbidden under international law, calling for accountability and transparency, adding neither have been readily apparent

in previous incidents where Israel has investigated itself.

Paula Hancock's, CNN, Abu Dhabi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: An important story there. Well, Denmark has summoned the U.S. envoy after a report alleged covert U.S. operations, influenced operations

in Greenland. The Danish public broadcaster says that at least three Americans with ties to President Donald Trump are conducting influence

campaigns in Greenland, sparking concerns they could be working to attempt to shift public opinion against Denmark.

The U.S. president has publicly threatened to annex the island, which is a self-governing territory of Denmark. Kuno Fencker joins me now. He's a

member of Greenland's Parliament, spokesperson as well for this Siumut Party. Nice to have you back on. Thanks for taking the time.

KUNO FENCKER, GREENLANDIC PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Hi, Jim. I'm with the Naleraq Party now, just for clarification.

SCIUTTO: OK. Understood. Well, the last time we spoke, you made clear that Greenland is, in your words, not for sale. Do you see this as another way

for the U.S. to exert influence over Greenland through what an intelligence world they would call an influenced operation?

FENCKER: Well, I don't buy the narrative that the U.S. is trying to have covert influence here in Greenland. And even in our foreign (INAUDIBLE) and

our members of parliament in Denmark has not seen any proof or any information from the intelligence agency from Denmark or the government.

So, I think these are, in a way, rumors or maybe referenced to what happened here in the winter. And I don't know if there's anything I don't

know or I haven't seen, but what I have seen has not been covert at all.

SCIUTTO: You're saying it's public or you're saying it doesn't exist?

FENCKER: Well, in the government of Greenland and the committees of foreign and security politics, and also members of parliament of the Danish

parliament, we haven't heard any official channels informing us about any covert operations for infiltration or anything in that sense at all here in

Greenland. And, while I'm walking here in Newark, our capital in Greenland, I haven't seen anything at all.

So, it's a little bit difficult to say something direct about it. And I don't think it's appropriate to fear monger about it. And also try to --

from the Danish media (ph) especially let Greenlanders have a bad relations with the U.S.

But what is striking to me today is that Denmark finally apologized for the forced IUD scandal against the Greenlandic women here in Greenland. So,

it's, in a way, very striking to see that there's some kind of coincidence in that.

SCIUTTO: I'm aware of that story where Denmark has admitted to a program to, in effect, prevent native Greenlanders from having babies. But back to

U.S. interest in Greenland, because, as you know, President Trump has been quite public about it for some time. Do you see the U.S., do you see the

Trump administration retreating from that position?

[18:30:00]

Have you seen -- I mean, there's certainly been less public comment about it, but do you believe that the president has given up on the idea?

FENCKER: It's not my place to say so, but I can only say that Greenland, of course, and we from Naleraq hasn't changed our position, the right for our

independence or the right for our self-determination is with the Greenlandic people and the Inuit people here in Greenland and not Denmark

or the U.S. decision to do so.

So, Greenland was of the ante in regards to, you know, addressing our right to external self-determination and choose our partners in the future

accordingly.

SCIUTTO: Kuno Fencker, member of Greenland's parliament, thanks so much for joining us again.

FENCKER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, the fourth anniversary of the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan. We're going to discuss the repercussions, the lessons, the

dangers from the chaotic exit with the U.S. veteran of the Afghan War, that's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto. Here are the international headlines we're watching today.

A shooter open opens fire at a Catholic school in Minneapolis, killing at least two children, injuring 17 others, most of them young students as

well. The shooter shot through the windows of the school church during a morning mass marking the first week of school. Police say the 23-year-old

shooter died from self-inflicted gunshot wound, that he had posted a video manifesto on YouTube. They're now investigating a possible motive.

[18:35:00]

Federal judges blocking the U.S. government from deporting Kilmar Abrego Garcia until at least October. The judge wants the Trump administration to

testify at a hearing on October 6th before the judge issues her ruling. Abrego Garcia is requesting asylum in the U.S. now, says he fears torture

and persecution if he is sent to Uganda. He returned to the U.S. in June after being wrongfully deported to a notorious prison in El Salvador.

The U.S. Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA, has suspended dozens of employees who wrote a letter to Congress. The letter warns the Trump

administration's cuts to FEMA are gutting the agency's ability to respond in natural disasters. More than 180 current and former FEMA officials

signed that letter, most did so anonymously amid fear of retaliation, but 36 of them gave their names. They've now been put on paid leave.

Now, to Ukraine, U.S. Special Envoy Steve Witkoff says that he is hopeful that Kyiv and Moscow will reach a peace agreement by the end of this year.

He also says he is meeting with Ukrainian officials in New York this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE WITKOFF, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY: No one has done more, and I'm talking about in the last eight months, than this president in narrowing the issues

between these two countries and bringing the sides close to a deal. The Russians have put a peace proposal on the table. It involves Donetsk. It

may not be something that the Ukrainians can take.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: It's Ukrainian sovereign territory. President Trump has vowed once again to apply heavy economic sanctions on Russia if it does not stop its

ongoing invasion. However, we should note, he has made that threat before while repeatedly extending the deadline.

This week marks the fourth anniversary of the completion of the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, a chaotic exit, the repercussions of which

continue to be failed today. The last U.S. troops left Afghanistan on August 30, 2021, five days after a suicide bomb attack at Kabul's Abbey

Gate that took the lives of 13 U.S. service members, as well as some 170 Afghan citizens.

The troop pullout led to this defining image at Kabul Airport, hundreds of people running alongside a U.S. Air Force jet as it departed the country.

Some clinging to the plane's fuselage in a desperate attempt to escape.

The withdrawal was seen by many as a major Biden administration foreign policy failure. However, it was the Trump administration which first set

the events in motion when it negotiated a withdrawal agreement with the Taliban back in 2020 and began reducing U.S. troop levels there

dramatically. The departure of U.S. troops allowed the Taliban to return to power quite quickly. They continue to control Afghanistan today. Their rule

has led to, among other things, an ongoing humanitarian crisis. Afghans trying to flee the country have been denied asylum and neighboring

countries such as Pakistan and Iran.

Joining me now is Jason Howk. He's a veteran of the U.S. war in Afghanistan. The director now of the nonprofit organization, Global Friends

of Afghanistan. Jason, good to have you back.

JASON HOWK, DIRECTOR, GLOBAL FRIENDS OF AFGHANISTAN AND AFGHAN WAR VETERAN: Hey, good to see you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: I know these anniversaries sting for you and other veterans of the Afghan War, and I know you were in touch with many of them. Just as you

question, I imagine, your sacrifice there. It's been four years. How are you doing and how are your fellow fighters there doing four years later?

HOWK: Yes, as you can imagine, been checking in on a lot of people today and a lot of people have been checking in on me. People are still reeling

from this. It's still hurting, especially the veterans who were on the ground as they've seen their partners get killed over these four years. The

Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Haqqani, they're all hunting these folks down and killing them, you know, dropping bodies in front of their family homes

after they're done with them. So, it's been kind of a crushing couple of years. And it's just doesn't get any better.

SCIUTTO: Yes. The pipeline of getting those folks out, the folks who fought along alongside the Americans in Afghanistan as has virtually stopped.

HOWK: I lost you. Jim.

SCIUTTO: Can you hear me now? Just checking. Can you hear me now, Jason? We're going to have to check the audio with Jason and come back to him.

Jason Howk, director of Global Friends of Afghanistan.

Meanwhile, will Chicago be the next U.S. city to see National Guard troops patrolling its streets? The Illinois attorney general has said that if that

happens and local leaders are not consulted it would be, quote, "another step toward authoritarianism." He joins me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

SCIUTTO: Jason Howk, Afghan veteran, back with me now. Corrected the audio issues. Jason, I was asking you about how the ability of Afghan allies,

former Afghan allies of the U.S. to get out of the country is just virtually stopped at this point. What happens to them now? And is there any

hope for those folks now as they remain there and the Taliban, as you say, hunts them down?

HOWK: We're not seeing much hope, unless we start moving some of the people out of these third nations they're sitting in. But, you know, most of the

NATO nations have either stopped taking anybody or reversed and started sending people out. So, we're in a tough spot here. People who are

completely vetted that, you know, bled and took wounds beside our guys are just stuck there and their families. So they're -- many of them still

running around, moving from place to place trying to hide. But the Taliban, Haqqani, Al-Qaeda, they're -- they spend their days looking for them,

hunting them down.

SCIUTTO: When U.S. troops withdrew, you and other vets warned that terror groups would again begin training there. And that, in effect, we're laying

the groundwork for another 911. Now, one of Trump's own counter terror advisers, Sebastian Gorka, is saying that the Taliban has been cooperative

in terms of fighting terrorism. What's your reaction to that? Any evidence of that?

HOWK: We're not sure what this cooperation is. I've spoken with a lot of folks from the intel community and the special operations community. This

is -- this sounds like pretty naive talk is what most people are saying. The Taliban are very good at pulling people in. They're always looking for

useful idiots. And it sounds like that's where they're heading again. They talk the great game.

But, you know, these terrorist organizations, they change sides. They move people around. Fighters jump from one place to another. They settle old

scores and tell the U.S. that, you know, they're taking out some bad guy for us when we know that's not the case. You know, they are -- they have a

suicide bomber unit in the Taliban, Haqqani Army. You know, that's what they're thinking about.

SCIUTTO: Is there evidence, in your view, that those groups might attack abroad again? is that their ambition?

[18:45:00]

HOWK: I think it is, and many people I've have spoken to think it is. That is -- they are moving. It's the headquarters for terrorism internationally

now. That entire space, the size of Texas is the training center. Every madrasa, every school has been turned into a training center for

terrorists. So, this not about securing Afghanistan, there's a reason they're still poking the Pakistan who sponsored the Taliban.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Before we go, your organization makes an effort to highlight the needs and suffering of Afghan women and girls, frankly, since the

Taliban took over again. Can you describe what the Taliban return has meant for women and girls in Afghanistan?

HOWK: It's basically meant anybody above the sixth grade is a prisoner in their home and has to be supervised at all times if they are caught

outside. There's no school after the sixth grade. There's no work for women anymore, unless it is something very minute, the Taliban will allow, and

usually it's hidden. If they're caught outside the Taliban, you know, deems them to be un unfit or immoral woman. They will take them, torture them,

beat them, impregnate them. They've, in cases, had women in prison get pregnant, give them abortions, get them pregnant again, kill them and throw

them on their family's front steps.

SCIUTTO: Good lord.

HOWK: So, this the organization we're working with. It's very dangerous and naive to think they're any kind of counterterrorism partner. They are a

terrorist organization.

SCIUTTO: Oh, just awful accounts there. The other phenomenon, of course, is that the Taliban is getting closer to Russia and China. Both Russia and

China have resumed diplomatic relations with them. I mean, is the U.S. in effect losing Afghanistan to Russia and China?

HOWK: Absolutely. You know, all the trillions of really important mineral wealth that sits under Afghanistan and has sat there for decades, China and

Russia now plan to take that out cheaply. They don't have to pay the terrorists much to get it out of the ground, and of course, they'll use

their own people. So, Pakistan, China, Russia, they are all just picking at the bones of what was Afghanistan. And the terrorist regime is happy as

long as they get paid. They're enriching themselves. They don't care about feeding the people. So, this the perfect storm. We gave up a great ally on

the war on terrorism, and we've given up a chance for an incredible, you know, trade group between to the west and Afghanistan, and we've given it

to Russia and China at a really dangerous time.

SCIUTTO: Jason Howk, thanks so much for joining and giving us a sense of the situation on the ground there. And I'll have more news right after the

break.

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[18:50:00]

SCIUTTO: New comments just now from Vice President J. D. Vance about the president's use of the National Guard, how long he could deploy them in

U.S. cities. Vance told USA Today that President Trump does not want the troops to remain on the streets, quote, "indefinitely." Added that the

administration, quote, "Just wants to make those streets more safe." The National Guard is now patrolling parts of Washington, D.C. Chicago could be

next, even though state and city officials there say they don't want them.

Illinois Attorney General Kwame Raoul joins me now live from Chicago. Thanks so much for taking the time.

KWAME RAOUL, ILLINOIS ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: Now, you've said that if this happens, that this would be, quote, "another step towards authoritarianism." Now, just this week, as you know,

the president signed an executive order to create a National Guard rapid response force justifying this based on a need for ensuring public safety.

Do you believe that a deployment in Chicago is now imminent?

RAOUL: I don't know. This a president that can change his mind on -- in the course of a few minutes, if not a day or a week. And so, I don't know

exactly what to predict, but we're preparing for if there is an unlawful deployment of the National Guard. So, I can't predict what this president

will do from one week to the next.

SCIUTTO: We've now seen the president deploy troops in L.A. We see them here now in Washington, D.C. We have this executive order that seems to

give him the power he claims, right, to do it in other cities. What can the state of Illinois do, if anything, to reliably prevent this or is it

effectively a fait accompli?

RAOUL: Well, federal law lays out the framework for when the National Guard can be federalized and they're certain prerequisites. One would be a

foreign invasion. The other would be a rebellion. And the third is if there's a reason that a federal action, federal law cannot be enforced

because of some emergent reason. And none of those circumstances exist.

We do have a continued great collaboration with federal law enforcement partners through our local special agents in charge, and they're

collaborating with our local law enforcement in my office on gun trafficking, gun crimes, and violent crimes and organized retail crime in

various criminal activity.

And so, if the president wants to help, I would say steer resources towards those collaborative efforts that are already working instead of having an

untrained -- a National Guard that's untrained to do local law enforcement deployed against the American people.

SCIUTTO: Governors and attorneys general from blue states, Democratic run states have been communicating with each other to coordinate their

response, not only to the potential deployment of National Guard but other federal power grabs in effect. I mean, there's even been talk reported of,

quote, "soft secession" with, for instance, states refusing to send federal government funds they collect on Washington's behalf.

I mean, do you find that kind of coordination and that kind of response to this, a genuine responsibility if the president continues to expand the

powers he claims?

RAOUL: Yes. Well, I'm not going to be one to suggest withholding funds that we're supposed to be sending to Washington. However, as you indicated, I

and my colleagues, other Democratic state attorneys general have been collaborating on fighting federal overreach. And every lawsuit -- and I

think we filed some maybe about 35 lawsuits thus far. It's not just because we have policy differences, it's because our constitution and federal law

has been violated.

And so, yes, we've put our heads and our staffs have worked together for some time collaborating against unlawful acts of the federal government.

SCIUTTO: The president is insisting that crime is rampant in Chicago. Tell us the facts there.

RAOUL: The facts are the crime -- crime is on a decline. Do we have crime? Do we have crime that bothers and worries me? Absolutely. There's no

disputing that.

[18:55:00]

However, as I indicated earlier, what has worked -- and I became attorney general during President Trump's first term, and we had tremendous

collaboration with the FBI, DEA, ATF, HSI, Secret Service, and other agencies on fighting crime. And that should be our focus. You know, I don't

mind the president saying that he wants to help with crime in cities, and there's a way he can do so. He can start -- stop conditioning funds for

victims of crime. He could restore money for community violence interruption. He cannot redirect agents of these crime fighting agencies

towards immigration enforcement and have them do what they're trained to do, is fight crime. And so, we would welcome that type of help.

I don't -- I won't fight against a really well-reasoned effort for the federal government to help us in a collaborative way.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Kwame Raoul, we appreciate you joining.

RAOUL: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: And thanks so much to you. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please stay with CNN.

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