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The Brief with Jim Sciutto
CNN International: WH May Fire Thousands of Federal Workers Amid the Ongoing U.S. Government Shutdown; Federal Employees Working Without Pay; U.K. Synagogue Attack; Meta to Use A.I. Data for Ads; Putin Warns Europe and Mocks Trump; Trump Considering Supplying Tomahawk Missile to Ukraine. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired October 02, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, and you're watching
"The Brief."
Just ahead this hour, the White House says it may fire thousands of federal workers amid the ongoing U.S. government shutdown. Police in the U.K. say
the suspect behind a deadly synagogue attack is a British man of Syrian descent. And Meta says it will offer people more personalized content and
ads based on what they talk to their A.I. chatbot about.
We begin here in D.C. where the axe is hanging over thousands of federal jobs. U.S. President Donald Trump and White House Budget Director Russ
Vought are deciding who faces mass layoffs and furloughs during the government shutdown. The shutdown is likely to drag on now into next week.
Senate Democrats are expected to block a Republican funding bill on Friday and the Senate is not expected to be in this weekend. The House minority
leader lambasted Republicans for refusing to negotiate, particularly on health care.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Already, we are willing, we are able to sit down with anyone, anytime, anyplace, including the president and the vice
president to try to find a path forward, to reopen the government, enact a spending agreement that actually meets the needs of the American people,
while at the same time addressing the Republican health care crisis. Unfortunately, Republicans have shown zero interest in even having a
conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: On social media, the president warned that so-called Democrat agencies are in the firing line. And we should note, the president quite
openly acknowledged that the man who is in charge of these job cuts, OMB Director Russ Vought, is, in the president's words, of Project 2025 fame.
It's true. Vought co-authored the conservative policy blueprint Project 2025, which included big cuts to federal agencies, but which then-Candidate
Trump denied any knowledge of in the run-up to the election.
Compare today's post to his comments on Project 2025 on the campaign trail, quote, "I know nothing about Project 2025. I have no idea who's behind it."
He said that out loud.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Some on the right, severe right, came up with this Project '25, and I don't even know. They are extreme. I mean,
they're seriously extreme. But I don't know anything about it. I don't want to know anything about it.
I have nothing to do with Project 2025. That's out there. I haven't read it. I don't want to read it purposely. I'm not going to read it.
Project 2025, I've said a hundred times, I know nothing about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Fact is, they turn out not to be true. Joining me now from the White House, Alayna Treene. I wonder, does the White House acknowledge that
the president, in fact, was lying on the campaign? I mean, given that he appointed one of the authors of Project 2025 to run the OMB, and now
carrying out that agenda quite openly.
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, I actually sat down and spoke with one White House official about it today. They dismissed it. They
argued that the president was trying to, quote, "troll people" with that, get them riled up, because he knew that would incite some controversy.
Look, I mean, I remember us talking about this at length, Jim, when I was covering the president's campaign. I mean, he did everything he could to
distance himself from that very conservative and a lot of people called almost radical agenda that was Project 2025. So, the fact that he brought
that up today, of course, garnered a lot of attention.
And I do think, too, the thing that's notable about it is that in that policy platform that, as you mentioned, Russ Vought, the White House budget
chief, was a part of, he laid out, there was a vision for how they wanted to shrink the size of the federal government, how they wanted to slash
funding, cut certain benefits. And that is exactly the type of conversation they are having now and trying to do when it comes to this government
shutdown.
[18:05:00]
And I want to bring in as well, Jim, just some of the things I heard about today, because I know we've heard a lot about, you know, the mass layoffs
that are potentially coming. People have questioned, would they be permanent layoffs? Would they just be temporary, which is normal during a
shutdown? But they are planning to fire people. And we heard from the press secretary this morning that it is going to be thousands of people who are
impacted.
I'm told that the White House already has a list of agencies that they are looking to make these cuts for. And we could hear where those cuts are
going to be as early as tomorrow. And so, all of that kind of ties in to the Project 2025 stuff. But mainly, this is a goal that Russ Vought has
been working on. This is something he has been planning on for a very long time. And they see this as an opportunity to try and enact some of it.
SCIUTTO: And to be clear, they don't have to be fired, right? I mean, in a government shutdown, typically they're furloughed. And then when the
government is un-shutdown, they return to work and get back pay.
TREENE: Yes. No, I think it's not even that they don't have to be fired, which they don't. This is something that is unprecedented. There have been
multiple shutdowns in past administrations, including the former -- including president's former administration, his first term. This has never
been done before, what the White House and the broader Trump administration is planning with this. They want to try and reshape the government and use
this opportunity to kind of push the bounds of the president's executive power.
They have been doing that, of course, for some time now. They have also engaged in mass firings earlier in this administration, notably, then it
was a couple of months ago during -- under DOGE and under Elon Musk's leadership of that agency. But this is something that is unprecedented. No
one has done this in history. No president has done this in history in prior administrations. But it's something that they argue this shutdown
provides them with an opportunity for.
And just so you know, the way that they're trying to strategize this, because this was something I was trying to wrap my head around today, Jim,
is why do they see this as an opportunity? And their argument is, one, that the government really, you know, there's no budget right now. There's no
money coming in. And so, they need to triage in some sense. They're trying to look at, you know, which workers are essential, which are non-essential.
That is normal during a government shutdown. But they're saying that these firings are a way for them to also enact the president's agenda. And that's
the part of this that is not normal.
SCIUTTO: Alayna Treene at the White House, thanks so much. Joining me now is Bobby Kogan, a former official at the U.S. Office of Management and
Budget, a senior director now of federal budget policy for the Center of American Progress -- for American Progress. Thanks so much for joining.
BOBBY KOGAN, FORMER OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET OFFICIAL UNDER BIDEN AND SENIOR DIRECTOR OF FEDERAL BUDGET POLICY, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS:
Hey, Jim, thanks so much for having me on.
SCIUTTO: So, government shutdown, that means you can't pay employees. In the past, you furloughed them, as we were just noting there. Is it legal to
fire them?
KOGAN: It's an open question about whether you can fire them. I would say the work necessary to conduct the firing is extremely illegal. During a
government shutdown, there is no funding. The White House has actually acknowledged that. They called it an accepted activity. Accepted means that
there is no funding.
And they claimed there are four categories of things you can do, even if there is no funding. You do it without pay, and eventually you get back
pay. What -- the thing that they claimed is that this falls under the exception for if it is a constitutional power or duty. That's the sort of
thing like, if we shut down in the middle of the census, you would still keep doing the census because the Constitution says you have to do the
census.
It's a total lie -- I mean, it's absurd to claim that the Constitution charges the president with doing mass firing. So, it is illegal. It's an
Anti-Deficiency Act violation. It carries a criminal penalty. But the White House won't prosecute itself. So, it's just more lawless budgetary actions
from a president who's done a lot of illegal budgetary actions so far.
SCIUTTO: Does this fall under the larger umbrella of this administration, in effect, refusing to implement spending authorized by Congress, which,
you know, from my reading of the Constitution, though I'm not a constitutional scholar, Congress has the power of the purse.
KOGAN: Yes, that's right. You are not allowed to ignore spending laws in the same way that you're not allowed to ignore tax laws and you're not
allowed to ignore normal criminal laws. If you fire a whole bunch of people and then you never rehire, that is an illegal impoundment. That's where you
are not spending in the way that you are supposed to.
Obviously, Russ Vought, the OMB director, just the other day announced that he would be canceling a bunch of grants. This administration, since day
one, has been illegally not spending money. That's actually Russ Vought's section on Project -- in Project 2025 is all about how he wants to
illegally not spend. So, I would just say this is part of a broad, broad effort in the Trump administration to break a whole bunch of budget laws.
SCIUTTO: There have been challenges in court, are any of those challenges holding any of this back?
[18:10:00]
KOGAN: There is an emergency challenge to the -- to this mass firing. And in general, there have been tons and tons and tons of cases around some of
the illegal impoundments. They are working their way through the courts on the merits. In some cases, the courts have really slowed things down. And
in other cases, they've allowed them to continue while they work their way through TBD on this.
Obviously, the court was -- you know, it's heavily tilted in the Republican favor. So, TBD on this. But I would just say, you know, plainly, whether
the court greenlights it or not, this is something that is plainly illegal. When Nixon impounded, he lost every single case that was decided on the
merits, every single one of them. And his -- before the Supreme Court, he lost unanimously. So, regardless of what the current courts decide, this
this is something that was kind of settled precedent.
SCIUTTO: There's another strategy the administration's carrying out now, and that is to deny funding specifically to states run by Democrats. I
mean, you saw that they took $18 billion of congressionally approved infrastructure funding away from New York. Is that legal?
KOGAN: You normally can cancel grants. The United States government gives itself the authority to cancel grants. It's not necessarily wise. And in a
lot of cases, it doesn't save any or much money because you're still on the hook for a whole a whole slew of costs. But you normally can do it.
What I would say is that this betrays a core -- you then have to spend it in some capacity. But I would say this betrays a core American value,
right. Americans believe that regardless of who the president is, that person is supposed to work for the American people, not just the people who
voted for that person, but for the American people.
When George Bush lost to Bill Clinton, he wrote President Clinton a note and he said, you are now our president and your successes are now our
country's success. And I think we all believe that. And I would just say this sort of like kind of petty going after the people who didn't vote for
you really, really goes against the core American value.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, listen, I mean, when you had the president deny the results of an election and still do a lot of that went out the window.
Final question. Does this belie the claim that President Trump knew nothing about Project 2025, given so many elements, elements of it are playing out
right before our eyes?
KOGAN: Yes, I would encourage everyone to read Russ Vought's section of Project 2025. It's just a few pages. If you control F for apportionment,
you will find it. It has happened to a T, right. Russ Vought's section of Project 2025 was all about using the White House to constrict -- to
illegally constrict spending to do exactly what the president wanted, and that's what we've seen. And President Trump has lifted up Russ Vought's
actions.
So, whether or not Trump read it, I don't actually think he's much of a reader based on some of his comments. He clearly was very happy with what
Russ Vought was doing to carry out Project 2025. And I think that just couldn't be more clear.
SCIUTTO: Bobby Kogan, thanks so much for joining.
KOGAN: Thanks so much for having me on, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Now, to that devastating attack on the U.K.'s Jewish community. A man killed two people, injured four others outside a Manchester synagogue
in a combined stabbing and car ramming. Police say they are now treating the incident as an act of terrorism. Officers shot and killed the suspect,
now identified as 35-year-old Jihad Al-Shamie. He was a British citizen of Syrian descent. At least three other people have now been arrested
following the attack. It took place as worshippers observed the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur. Nic Robertson is on the scene in Manchester. A
warning, part of his report includes graphic pictures.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody out. Get back.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): As the injured lay in the street, armed police shout at the alleged attacker, whom
they say was wearing what appeared to be an explosive device.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has a bomb. Go away.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Then shoot as he refuses to comply. The deadly events unfolding early Thursday morning outside a synagogue in the northern
city Manchester, on the holiest day of the year for the Jewish community, Yom Kippur.
ASST. COMMISSIONER LAURENCE TAYLOR, HEAD, U.K. COUNTER TERRORISM POLICE: Two people have died. The attacker has been shot dead by the police. We
have also made two further arrests. And based on what we know, counter- terrorism policing has declared this as a terrorist incident.
[18:15:00]
ROBERTSON (voice-over): A little earlier in a quiet residential street, a quarter of a mile from the synagogue, a heavy police presence as two men
seen here in this exclusive CNN video arrested and taken away. Events of the day, shocking witnesses.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our neighbor across the road, he goes to the synagogue and he was telling us what was going on. And it's just absolutely
frightening because I'm scared for my own safety and my mom's safety.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Police also praising the public for their quick actions, preventing even more bloodshed.
CHIEF CONSTABLE STEPHEN WATSON, GREATER MANCHESTER POLICE: There were a large number of worshippers attending the synagogue at the time of this
attack. But thanks to the immediate bravery of security staff and the worshippers inside, as well as the fast response of the police, the
attacker was prevented from gaining access.
ROBERTSON: The attack so serious, the British Prime Minister cut short a trip to Denmark, returning in a hurry to the U.K. to chair a meeting of his
top security officials.
KEIR STARMER, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I'm already able to say that additional police assets are being deployed to synagogues across the
country and we will do everything to keep our Jewish community safe.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): For some, it will feel too little, too late. Across the U.K., antisemitic attacks have been on the rise. So, too, the
fear that something like this could happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do have Orthodox people on this road. They're probably not safe now. And we have lots of children. For somebody to know
today is Yom Kippur, I just feel this has been definitely planned.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Well, hope sadly is fading in Indonesia. Officials are making the difficult decision to move from rescue to recovery as they search through
the wreckage of Monday's boarding school collapse. Five survivors were pulled alive from the scene Wednesday. Officials there believe up to 59
people are still trapped under the rubble. At least five have been confirmed dead. Ivan Watson has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A rescue from the ruins. Indonesian emergency workers have been digging and cutting
in a desperate effort to find dozens of boys trapped since their school suddenly collapsed on Monday. This mother's prayers answered when rescuers
plucked her son from the rubble.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I thought there was only a 20 percent chance he'd make it. But I kept saying in the name of God, my child
is strong. My child is strong. I kept reciting praises for the prophet.
WATSON (voice-over): But for too many other families, an agonizing vigil that's now turned to despair. Officials bring in heavy machinery and
announce they've detected no more signs of life. Parents line up to give DNA samples to help identify bodies of young victims.
This woman's 17-year-old son, Ahmed (ph), is among those missing. My hope is fading, she says. I need them to find his body soon so that he can be
buried beside his father's grave.
The Al-Khoziny Islamic boarding school was a four-story building in the Indonesian city of Sidoarjo. Students were gathering for afternoon prayers
on Monday as construction workers were reportedly pouring concrete on the roof of the school. That's when the building collapsed. A top Indonesian
government official now calls this a wake-up call. Authorities say they've launched an investigation into the cause of this deadly disaster.
Ivan Watson, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: A truly sad story there. Well, coming up on "The Brief", your chats with Meta's A.I. will soon be turned into personalized ads. Well,
they're listening. What it means for your privacy, that's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:20:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back, and this is your Business Breakout. Wall Street showing little concern over the ongoing U.S. government shutdown. All three
major indices set new all-time highs. The NASDAQ boosted by heavyweight tech firms, including A.I. chip giants. NVIDIA hit another record high.
Checking some of today's other business headlines, Tesla sales surged to a record in the third quarter. The company sold nearly 500,000 vehicles
worldwide from July through September, this driven in part as American buyers rushed to buy EVs before a federal tax credit expired September
30th. Despite those strong sales, shares of Tesla fell more than 5 percent today.
Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway is buying OxyChem for nearly $10 billion. It is Occidental Petroleum's chemical division. This is Buffett's
biggest deal in three years. The 95-year-old oracle of Omaha, as he's known, announced in May that he will step down as CEO of Berkshire at the
end of this year.
Employers' hiring plans here in the U.S. fell to their lowest level since 2009, that according to outplacement firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas.
American companies announced hiring plans for about 205,000 roles through September, down almost 60 percent from last year. The data shows an ongoing
trend in the U.S. labor market, low hire, low fire.
Meta is announcing it will use users' conversations with A.I. chatbots for personalized ads and content, starting in mid-December. Meta says its A.I.
now has more than 1 billion monthly users. It is accessible across Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp, and standalone Meta A.I. app as well. Shares
of Meta up 1.4 percent following that announcement.
Joining me now, Bob O'Donnell, founder and chief analyst at TECHnalysis Research. So, Bob, we already know our phones watch what we do, right,
because if I look at a post about jogging, you know, I get sneaker ads. I mean, everybody watching is familiar with it. So, now your conversations
with A.I. are going to generate ads as well?
BOB O'DONNELL, FOUNDER AND CHIEF ANALYST, TECHNALYSIS RESEARCH: Yes, apparently so. And, you know, the big concern, of course, is the fact that
we've seen a lot of people start using these things, I mean, in extreme cases as therapists, right? So, you've got people sharing a lot more
personal information in these chatbots even than they do in their web searches. And so, that's a big issue.
I mean, look, Meta is an advertising-driven company. You've got to understand at some point they're probably going to do this. They're
spending a fortune, billions and billions of dollars to build the infrastructure to power this stuff. So, there is that business model
question of how do you pay for this? And this is the effort. I mean, I have some concerns, needless to say.
SCIUTTO: Yes, I mean, me too. Now, Meta says it will not target ads based on health, as you mentioned, religion or politics, but you and I know the
track record of companies such as Meta is not great on that. I mean, just listen to some of the whistleblowers' testimony, you know, on Capitol Hill.
Should we be confident that those rules are hard and fast?
O'DONNELL: Well, I think it's going to be tough because there's going to be a lot of very gray areas when a certain conversation kind of veers one
way and certain comments are made. It's going to be hard to decipher that.
[18:25:00]
The other big thing is because -- and as you pointed out, you know, people forget that Meta has control of a lot of different platforms. And the A.I.
capabilities are being embedded into those platforms. So, it's also not going to be clear to people is what parts of their interactions with all
these various tools are actually going to be relayed through the A.I. engine into this advertising recommendations.
You know, and it's really early on, right? There's a lot of other chatbots on there -- out there and a lot of choices that people have. So, to be
honest with you, I'm a little surprised they're doing it this quickly because I think it could drive people to other platforms, OpenAI, you know,
and some of these other tools that are out there that I'm sure are going to jump on this and say, hey, we're not doing that, you can trust us.
SCIUTTO: Yes, I mean, if they do, right? We don't know how they're going to behave.
O'DONNELL: Yes, if they do it, exactly.
SCIUTTO: I imagine some of this is on us, right? As with your personal data online, you can -- and I know, listen, everybody sees the user
agreements and who reads them, but I mean, some of it is up to what information you share and talk about.
O'DONNELL: It is, absolutely. But the other part of the problem, I think, is there's not a lot of clarity. Like you said, yes, there may be these
agreements, we've never read them. There needs to be more clarity across the board about what types of information are actually being captured and
when. I mean, we've all had the experience, not only the obvious jogging thing that you mentioned, but, you know, you're talking about a topic with
a friend and all of a sudden, you know, later that day, like it wasn't even -- like you weren't even talking to your phone and that stuff kind of comes
up.
So, I think there's a need for more disclosures in terms of all of these different platforms, what they're listening to, what information they're
taking, and then, obviously, giving people control. One concern also is that apparently, Meta says you will not be able to opt out of this. Many
other platforms that have some of these types of things do let you opt out. So, that's going to be something to watch as well.
SCIUTTO: That's really interesting, right, because, you know, you do get a lot of opt-outs these days, whether people use them or not is another
question. All right. So, I'm going to watch closely. Thanks so much.
O'DONNELL: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Still to come on "The Brief," Russia's president issues a warning to European countries and mocks the U.S. president. We'll tell you why
next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto, and here are the international headlines we're watching today.
On the second day of the U.S. government shutdown, Congress remains at an impasse over, in particular, healthcare spending. Lawmakers are not on
Capitol Hill due to the Yom Kippur holiday. Senators are scheduled to hold a vote Friday on a short-term fix. Not a lot of chances that gets through.
British police have identified the suspected attacker in today's tragedy at a Manchester synagogue. Two worshipers were killed. Four people taken to
the hospital after a car ramming and knife attack on what is the holiest day of the Jewish calendar. Police have now named the suspect as 35-year-
old Jihad al-Shami, a British citizen of Syrian descent, although they say formal identification is yet to take place. Other suspects are in custody.
Hopes are sadly fading in Indonesia to find more survivors of Monday's boarding school collapse there. Five teenage boys were pulled alive from
the wreckage Wednesday. Officials have now made the agonizing decision for the rest of those still missing to move from rescue to recovery.
Authorities say up to 59 people remain trapped in the rubble. Five have been confirmed dead.
Russian President Vladimir Putin warned Europe today that he will respond with countermeasures if, as he said, Russia is provoked. He told a
gathering in Sochi that it would be a new stage of escalation if the U.S. supplies longer-range Tomahawk missiles to Ukraine. He mocked U.S.
President Trump's description of Russia recently as a paper tiger. He claimed all of NATO is fighting Russia over Ukraine and that maybe it poses
the empty threat.
Many European officials suspect Russia is behind recent drone incursions over E.U. airspace, something Putin denied. E.U. leaders gathered today in
Denmark and backed plans to build a defensive, quote, "drone wall." The network would include detection and interception systems built on the
capabilities of each country. One security measure includes NATO surveillance flights along Europe's eastern flank. CNN's Fred Pleitgen was
invited on board an eight-hour flight. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A quick takeoff from an airbase in Western Germany. We're on a NATO E3 Sentry
surveillance plane on a mission deterring Russian incursions into NATO airspace.
PLEITGEN: The reason why these flights are so important is that this plane has a massive radar on top, and it can see really far in all directions,
about 650 kilometers for higher flying objects, a little less for lower flying objects. But that means that it can see planes and other aircraft
coming towards NATO airspace long before they get there.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): While Moscow is praising what they say are improved relations between Russian leader Vladimir Putin and U.S. President Donald
Trump, it's also been testing NATO's readiness. NATO jets recently scrambling to shoot down several Russian combat drones that crossed into
member state Poland's airspace.
And in late September, NATO says Russian MiG-31 fighters flew over Estonia's airspace for 12 minutes while alliance interceptors were rushed
to escort them back out, even though Russia denies its planes ever crossed into NATO territory.
This is part of the U.S. and its allies answer, more surveillance flights, the operation named Eastern Sentry. Captain Jacob Anderson says if Russian
jets come close, they'll see them.
CAPT. JACOB ANDERSON, U.S. AIR FORCE: At that point, we probably have been watching that for a while. So, we're pushing them over the military
tactical data links. So, it's not just us that are aware of it, it's the whole theater is aware that this track is approaching the airspace.
PLEITGEN: If we go back and look at the map, you can see that we're cruising around Eastern Europe right now. This is Kaliningrad, that part of
Russia. You have Belarus down here. So, the plane is situated here, but can still look very far into territory even beyond the borders of NATO.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): And the E3 needs to stay in this area for hours, only possible thanks to U.S. Air Force tankers providing gas to extend the
mission. Air-to-air refueling a plane the size of a commercial jetliner is extremely challenging, the pilots tell me.
[18:35:00]
MAJ. JASON SANCHEZ, U.S. AIR FORCE: Essentially, the power management, the lateral management, ensuring you feel nice and comfortable in your closure
to and from a certain position.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): Crew members come from various NATO member states, all of them with the same stake in the mission success. Lieutenant Colonel
Stephen Wahnon tells me.
LT. COL. STEPHEN WAHNON, U.S. AIR FORCE: It's not one nation, it's all of NATO that's represented on this aircraft right now. So, when we are
patrolling these borders, they're our borders, right. So, it means a lot for us to be here to defend our borders.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): And NATO says surveillance, seeing possible threats before they get close, is key to keeping those borders safe.
Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Geilenkirchen, Germany.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Joining us now, retired U.S. Air Force Lieutenant General Dave Deptula. Thanks so much for taking the time.
LT. GEN. DAVE DEPTULA, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): You bet, Jim.
SCIUTTO: So, we've now seen multiple airspace violations by Russia, both drones, fighter jets over Estonia, which most NATO leaders call deliberate.
How do you rate the NATO response? Has it been strong enough?
DEPTULA: Well, I think it's developing. The E.U. leadership is finally getting serious about the threat that Russia is directly presenting them.
And as a result, they're planning stronger defenses to deal with these Russian threats. I think you mentioned earlier that today was the seventh
meeting of the European political community in Copenhagen, and E.U. security was at the top of that agenda. They discussed things like building
a drone wall, plus issued an announcement on providing Ukraine with a technical advantage over Russia.
And the other thing I wanted to bring to your attention is, I think you're aware of it and probably reported it today, the U.S. announced that it will
be providing targeting information on Russia for Ukraine. So, that's a huge move. And I think they're moving toward understanding the reality that
Putin only respects strength and it's time to start showing some of that.
SCIUTTO: Yes, I was going to ask you about that intel sharing and also this consideration apparently of supplying Tomahawk missiles. Do you see
that as a substantive change in this administration's approach to Russia?
DEPTULA: Yes, absolutely. And what I'd say is, finally, the fact of the matter is that NATO, led by the United States, needs to stop providing
sanctuary to Russia's forces by removing all restrictions on the use of deep attack weapons that the allies have provided Ukraine.
The Russian energy sector, as a result of Ukraine's own weapon development and uses imploding with a 38 percent loss in refinery capacity, and it
stands to cascade failure if Ukraine can thrash the surviving refineries to halt their output. So, the U.S. provision of advanced cruise missiles, such
as Tomahawks, could help them do that and they ought to be provided to Ukraine immediately.
SCIUTTO: I wonder when you join those things together, you've got a lot of damage to Russia's oil infrastructure and that is manifesting itself in
declining oil revenue. You have Russian progress effectively stalled on the battlefield, and you had a Russian effort to attempt to swing the Moldova
election, right, that failed. I mean, these are multiple ways that Russia tries to exert influence in Europe. Do you see the tide turning against
Russia?
DEPTULA: You know, absolutely, I do. I mean, the Russian disinformation that is so prevalent across social media and other means that they're in
the driver's seat is simply that, it's propaganda. They're losing, they know they're losing and we need to help them in accelerating their loss or
at least putting on sufficient pressure that they realize that continuing their aggression really is not in their best interest.
So, yes, I think we've already seen the tide turn. I just wish we'd made this realization and help Ukraine to a greater degree three years ago
instead of waiting till today. But the fact of the matter is Russia's losing, they're not going to win. And we need to accelerate the stop of
this war by stopping providing sanctuary to the Russians and take this fight to the heart of what means the most to Russia.
[18:40:00]
SCIUTTO: I suppose the next question is, does Putin believe he's losing? Because if he doesn't, he sticks with it and, you know, might increase the
risk of escalation with Europe.
O'DONNELL: Yes, no, it's an excellent question, Jim. And you know what? No one knows except Putin himself. And remember, you know, one of the biggest
mistakes the West make -- makes is in mirror imaging. And Putin does not think like your average Western diplomat or military leader. So, it's
difficult to tell.
However, I would suggest to you that Putin's escalation rhetoric is really a bluff to intimidate and to divide us. Remember, he was a KGB operative.
So, he is a master in terms of misinformation. He talks about escalation because he knows he's losing on the battlefield, you know, whether he
acknowledges it or not, because if he thought he was winning, he wouldn't be threatening. And the reality is, every time NATO has stood firm, Putin's
backed down. So, he does understand deterrence and he respects strength.
So, if we let his rhetoric dictate our actions, we hand him the very victory that he can't achieve militarily. So, the real danger isn't
escalation, it's self-deterrence.
SCIUTTO: Lieutenant General Dave Deptula, thanks so much for joining.
DEPTULA: Have a great evening, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Just ahead, the drone manufacturer Draganfly has signed a deal with the U.S. Army. I'm going to speak to the CEO about the future of drone
warfare. It's moving fast. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. The drone manufacturer Draganfly has just signed a deal with the U.S. Army. The company will supply its FLEX first-person
view, or FPV drones, to overseas bases. Draganfly's products are popping up at hotspots around the world, from the U.S.-Mexico border to the front
lines of Ukraine. It comes as the drone industry is quickly expanding into everything from emergency response to package delivery, of course, to
warfare.
Joining me now, CEO and President Cameron Chell. Thanks so much for taking the time.
[18:45:00]
CAMERON CHELL, CEO AND PRESIDENT, DRAGANFLY: Thanks for having us.
SCIUTTO: So, first, in terms of your partnership with the U.S. Army, are these drones primarily for defense or also for offensive operations?
CHELL: Well, I think the mission set's somewhat sensitive, but I can say that what's probably most important about this particular initiative is
that the U.S. Army is looking for the capability to modify and have multiple mission sets available to them. So, whether they're defensive,
offensive, logistics, search and rescue, that's the capability that they want as close to the front line as possible, and why we've been lucky
enough to be engaged in this opportunity.
SCIUTTO: What's the significance of training U.S. forces to build, equip, and modify those drones closer to the front line? Because that's certainly
something we've seen in Ukraine, I mean, where you have these kind of drone labs right there, and they're building it and sending it out the next day.
CHELL: Yes. Well, Draganfly is the oldest dual-use drone manufacturer in the world. We actually put out the first what was called then Flying Camera
in 1998. And as an example, we've been active and boots on the ground in Ukraine since 2022, initially delivering insulin into besieged cities with
our equipment, but then moving more and more into things like national defense and learning the tactics that the fine fighting Ukrainians have.
So, the lessons from that area have given us some capability and experience in being able to relate that back to Allied, NATO, and U.S. 5i included
forces about, you know, what are the techniques to modify, do maintenance, change your mission set instantly. And so, Secretary Hegseth's incredible
initiative to get that decision-making process down into the command level is what's driving, I believe anyway, organizations like the U.S. Army to
work with companies like Draganfly that have experience in the field and boots on the ground so that these capabilities can be executed within
hours, not within years of procurement cycle.
SCIUTTO: One interesting phenomenon in the Ukraine war, beyond seeing drone warfare advance enormously, is that while the initial framing of this
war, right, was Ukraine depending on the West for weapons systems, that Ukraine's made so many advances that really the West, the U.S., Europe have
a lot to learn from Ukraine at this point. And I imagine you've seen that as well with your own experience there.
CHELL: Our greatest -- you know, so in the 27 years of manufacturing and solution provision in drones that we've done, the work in particular that
we've done in Ukraine, and that we've learned by being there in place in front of those fine fighting individuals, and the ingenuity and initiative
because they're in the heat of battle every day, having to learn, having to adapt, being under-resourced, what we are now learning back is of
exponential value compared to what we can bring to the table, other than, of course, the resources and industrial strength that we have.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Who has the advantage right now in drone technology when -- beyond the battlefield of Ukraine, when you think of Russia, China is
certainly, we saw that on display during the Beijing military parade recently, the U.S., every U.S. commander and division chief is talking
about drone technology in some way, and they're all training in it, integrating them into their exercises, et cetera, but does any one of the
world powers have a particular advantage at this point in your view?
CHELL: Well, in my opinion, and it's somewhat informed, the Chinese by far are the dominant force in drones, not just in terms of size, but also in
terms of capability and technology, and a commitment to resourcing into drones. That is the real threat, and that is the industrial might that I
believe the United States and its NATO and 5i allies have to bring to the table to combat.
So, whether it's anything from civil defense or supply chain protection, or actual things like battlefield tactics, theaters of engagement, the Chinese
completely dominate it right now, and that's the real risk. In many respects, unfortunately, the Ukraine theater has given us a wake-up call in
order to be able to answer and put our military, our commercial, our civil, and our patriotic capabilities in front of what the incredible industrial
Chinese complex has put in place. It's an imperative right now, and it's probably, in my opinion, our biggest threat.
SCIUTTO: Yes, there's such a scale aspect to it too. Cameron Chell, Draganfly, thanks so much for joining.
Windsor Castle and Britain's Prince William, a new TV show revealing the royal's personal struggles as well. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:50:00]
SCIUTTO: Britain's Prince William is opening up about his family and sharing some intimate details about his life in a new television interview.
While meeting at Windsor Castle with the actor Eugene Levy, the prince called 2024 the hardest year of his life. He described his family's cancer
treatments, and the royal also spoke about missing his late grandparents. Max Foster has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At Windsor Castle, history and ceremony are everywhere. But for the Canadian actor Eugene
Levy, the royal encounter that awaited him was anything but traditional.
EUGENE LEVY, ACTOR AND HOST, "THE RELUCTANT TRAVELER": This is your mode of transportation.
PRINCE WILLIAM, PRINCE OF WALES: It is right here.
LEVY: On the grounds?
FOSTER (voice-over): It was meant to be part of a bucket list filmed for his travel series on Apple TV+. They were looking for someone to give them
a tour. They aimed high and got a yes from the future king, who it turns out has seen Levy's classic movie, "American Pie." Who knew?
FOSTER: The tone was set in a way, wasn't it, by Prince William turning up on a scooter. Then you go on this tour and he admits he doesn't really know
his way around. And then you go into the history part.
FOSTER (voice-over): And what follows is a vulnerability the prince rarely shows in public.
LEVY: Do you ever get overwhelmed just by the sheer history of the place?
PRINCE WILLIAM: When you say it like that, it sounds like I should say yes.
LEVY: OK.
PRINCE WILLIAM: But no, I wouldn't say history overwhelms me. Other things overwhelm me, but not history, no. Because I think if you're not careful,
history can be a real weight and an anchor around you. But also, I think if you're too intrinsically attached to history, you can't possibly have any
flexibility. And I like a little bit of change.
LEVY: I guess what you're saying is you want to open up some --
PRINCE WILLIAM: I want to question things more.
LEVY: That's it.
PRINCE WILLIAM: That's what I'm saying.
LEVY: OK. Do you miss your grandmother?
PRINCE WILLIAM: I do, actually. Yes, I do miss my grandmother and my grandfather. Yes, it's been quite a bit of change. So, you do sort of --
you think about them not being here anymore.
LEVY: Yes.
PRINCE WILLIAM: And particularly being in Windsor, for me, Windsor is her. So, she loved it here. She spent most of her time here. Showing you around
today is very much the case. I'm trying to make sure I'm doing it the way she'd want you to see it.
FOSTER (voice-over): Inside the nearly 1,000-year-old castle, William spoke of the late Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, his school days and
his children racing through its halls, but also the stresses that come with being a father and a husband.
FOSTER: It does take this turn into something I'm not sure if you expected to go there. He talks about being overwhelmed by the family stress. And
then you go deep. You talk about the princess' cancer diagnosis and how last year was the worst year of his life.
LEVY: Yes.
FOSTER: Do you think he's changed coming out of that?
LEVY: It changes what's kind of truly important. And he seemed to indicate that it did kind of alter his way of thinking.
[18:55:00]
FOSTER (voice-over): We learned the prince and princess juggled their jobs with a daily school run, and kids waking up in the night. The conversation
turned more personal still at a Windsor pub over a pint, talking about learning that his wife Catherine and father, King Charles III, both had
been diagnosed with cancer.
PRINCE WILLIAM: I'd say 2024 was the hardest year I've ever had.
LEVY: Are you optimistic?
PRINCE WILLIAM: I am optimistic. I'm generally a very optimistic person, especially when I'm with someone like you, Eugene. You know, life is sent
to test us as well, and it definitely can be challenging at times. I'm -- you know, I'm so proud of my wife and my father for how they've handled all
of last year. My children have managed brilliantly as well.
LEVY: Well, I'm hoping every other prince I run into is as nice, open, and human as you.
FOSTER (voice-over): A remarkably candid glimpse into life behind castle walls, and the very relatable pressures that its inhabitants experience.
Max Foster, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: A royal scooter as well. Thanks so much for joining us today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay
with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00]
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