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The Brief with Jim Sciutto
CNN International: Zelenskyy: "Principles" U.S. Peace Plan Can be Developed; Witkoff Advised RUSSIA on How to Pitch Ukraine Plan; FBI Seeks Interview with Dems in "Illegal Orders" Video; White House Vows to Continue Cases Against Comey and James; Colombia's Petro: U.S. Pressure on Venezuela is About Oil; Retailers Add In-Store Experiences to Draw Customers; U.S.- China-Japan Relations; China Launches Spacecraft on Emergency Mission. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired November 25, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR, "THE BRIEF": Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington and
you're watching "The Brief."
Just ahead this hour, Ukraine's President Zelenskyy says the principles of a U.S.-backed peace plan could be developed into a deeper agreement.
Colombia's president tells CNN that U.S. pressure on Nicolas Maduro has nothing to do with drugs or democracy and everything to do with oil. And
China launches an emergency mission to help return three stranded astronauts.
We begin with Ukraine and President Volodymyr Zelenskyy indicating he might be able to accept most of an amended U.S. proposal to end the war, most,
that's according to the British Prime Minister who took part in a meeting of the so-called Coalition of the Willing in support of Ukraine.
Recent days have brought a flurry of diplomatic activity. President Trump has ordered his top envoy Steve Witkoff to meet again with the Russian
President Vladimir Putin and sent U.S. Army Secretary Dan Driscoll to Abu Dhabi to meet with Russian officials there. President Trump says Driscoll
will meet with Ukrainian officials as well.
Yet in Moscow, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov accused Europe and Ukraine of trying to twist the original 28-point plan. President Zelenskyy
says he hopes deeper agreements may follow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Today we also worked with the Ukrainian negotiating team on the text of the document
developed with the United States in Geneva. The principles of this document can be developed into deeper agreements, and is our shared interest to
ensure that security is real. I'm counting on further active cooperation with the American side and with President Trump. Much depends on America
because it is American strength that Russia takes into account the most.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: A Ukrainian source with direct knowledge of the talks tells CNN's that while negotiators are making progress on some points in the new draft
proposal substantial differences remain. Among them the source says no decision yet on the key issue of whether Ukraine will surrender territory
to Russia and disagreements remain over a proposed limit to the size of Ukraine's army going forward to 600,000 troops. On the issue of Ukraine
abandoning its ambitions to someday join NATO, a source tells CNN this demand is unacceptable for Ukraine and Europe as it would hand Moscow a
veto over NATO, which of course Russia is not a party to.
Joining us now from the White House Kristen Holmes. And, Kristen, given that the differences that remain, based on our reporting, are the thorniest
ones, right? You know, pressuring Ukraine to give up territory, NATO membership the size of its military. Does the White House actually believe
there's real progress being made?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I mean, Jim, it's hard to answer that question because, yes, they do, and yes, they are
really pushing this optimism and it certainly sounds, from talking to these various U.S. officials and White House officials, that they feel they are
the closest that they have ever been but we have been in similar positions before. Generally, this has been foiled by Russian President Vladimir
Putin, which is why you've heard President Trump time and time again say that he is disappointed with him but it wouldn't be the first time that the
White House, that President Trump got out there said that they were in a really good position and then had to go back on that or that things just
clearly fell apart altogether.
I do think it's important to note what you just said, which is we know that at least some of the sticking points are things that both sides have really
taken issue with, and it's not just necessarily the NATO membership, we know that there are people that are pushing President Zelenskyy to kind of
let go of that concept, but even our European allies are saying that there need to be more security guarantees for Ukraine because that applies to the
entire region, that giving those security guarantees to Ukraine would help protect the entire area if Russia was to invade again. So, that is a huge
one, again, not just for Ukraine but also for our partners overseas. And then, the other one is territory.
[18:05:00]
And while we know that there have been some agreements on both sides at various points on ceding territory that they believe is theirs, it does
seem as though there is a line that neither side has been willing to cross, and that it's not clear why this time might be different.
I do think it's interesting that you have the Secretary of the Army going to meet with the Russians and Ukrainians. You also have Steve Witkoff going
to meet with Putin again. These are clear signs that the White House is moving forward here, and they're trying to have these meetings. I also
think it's interesting Witkoff is meeting with President Putin, not President Trump, which had been floated before, but was ultimately scrapped
when Trump said he didn't believe that Putin was in the right place or frame of mind when it came to ending the war.
SCIUTTO: What Witkoff hears from Putin. Kristen Holmes in West Palm Beach, thanks so much. Joining me now, Democratic Congressman from Illinois, Mike
Quigley, who is also co-chair of the Ukraine caucus in the House. Congressman, thanks so much for joining.
REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL): Glad to be back. Thank you.
SCIUTTO: So, to me, you called the initial plan revealed on Friday an embarrassment to the U.S. Do you believe the Trump administration has now
sufficiently altered its proposal to be at least a fair starting point or outline for peace?
QUIGLEY: Well, look, I think even if they went along with some of these changes, it's still a major victory for Putin. It's still an extraordinary
reward for him invading and committing war crimes. There's nothing here of substance right now that's really different in my mind from the Alaska
summit, from the deal that the Russians gave Witkoff in April.
You know, those still those big issues that matter the most. Security guarantees, giving Russia a veto power over NATO. Tell them how big their
army can be. Never mind all the other things that matter to them, accountability for those war crimes. Rebuilding Ukraine after the fact.
And I guess finally, does anyone think that Trump would actually follow up and fulfill security guarantees that he promises here? Mercurial president
who changed his mind every month.
SCIUTTO: Well, I mean, that's quite a charge there. I wonder, do you hear similar skepticism from, for instance, U.S. allies in Europe as to whether
a U.S. security guarantee under Trump actually means what it might say it means?
QUIGLEY: Why would anyone believe this president? I mean, he has said there are six deadlines now that he let Putin pass on. You know, he has
said he's going to do this, that, and the other thing, and they just haven't happened. This notion of bringing up the Tomahawk missiles. It
never happened. And this is also a president who tariffs his friends, who is basically told NATO they're on their own at various times, and it
switches back month by month. So, why would anyone believe this president, and frankly, our country at this point in time, when it really matters?
SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, because even going back to the Biden administration, I spoke to U.S. officials then who wouldn't say so
publicly, but they would say privately that at some point Ukraine might have to concede that it's not getting all the territory taken by Russia
back, particularly in the context of Crimea.
And, you know, we heard, for instance, former CIA director Leon Panetta say today that on NATO, he believes that Ukraine should focus on the EU for
now, that he's saying, in effect, that NATO might be too long of -- a bridge too far at this point. I mean, is there some reality check in there
that, yes, Ukraine's going to have to agree to some of this at some point?
QUIGLEY: It's hard to tell the Ukrainians that after they basically fought alone the battle that matters most to NATO. You know, this is the same
reason we fought the Second World War. Now, we're telling them, hey, you're going to have to take one for the team. I just can't tell them that they
have to do that. It's beyond frustration.
Had we helped sooner, had we given them the materials they need, and more importantly, that President Trump has done virtually nothing, I think he
stood in the way of help that would have mattered so much, you know, giving them the weapons they need, seizing their assets. These are things that
would have made a fundamental difference at a critical time. Now, because of our inaction and unwillingness to help, we're telling them that, you
know, too bad, you're going to lose territory. I just can't stand to watch America do that.
[18:10:00]
SCIUTTO: So, in the midst of this, Bloomberg is reporting that Steve Witkoff, who as I just reported, has been dispatched back to Russia to meet
with Vladimir Putin by Trump, that he was communicating to the Russians the ways they should approach Trump, in effect advising them on how to get to a
deal. I'm quoting from the Bloomberg story now. He says, "You know, me to you, I know what it's going to take to get a peace deal done, Donetsk and
maybe a land swap somewhere. But I'm saying instead of talking like that, let's talk more hopefully."
I mean, what's your reaction to hearing the U.S. president's envoy give advice to Russia?
QUIGLEY: Yes, I have to say nothing surprises me. I mean, the fact that our Secretary of State isn't at the head of these negotiations, and that
they have to tell them that they have to treat our president a certain way if we're going to get to a deal, just because they know the president has a
very unique personality, and you have to watch out for his ego, as frustrating as it can possibly be at this time.
SCIUTTO: Do you believe Russia and the Russian leader, crucially, Vladimir Putin, he's the man that matters here from their perspective, has any
sincere interest in a negotiated peace, or does it still believe it's winning, or maybe it signs a deal and just violates it later, as it's done
with previous peace agreements?
QUIGLEY: Well, certainly the latter, but I'll say this. What has Putin ever said that gives anyone any hope? Where has he -- when has he ever
backed off his maximalist demands for this? You know, and Lavrov said as much, if we sway away from Alaska's summit, you know, there's not going to
be any deal. The attacks that have taken place in recent days, it just shows that this is a president who, oh, by the way, just spoke last Friday
to his national security and said, we are happy, he used the word happy, to continue this fight and to beat Ukraine militarily.
He knows the advantage he has in a war of attrition, the fact that he's running his economy at 40 percent to fund this war, and that he's willing
to treat his troops like cannon fodder, he can find a way around the sanctions that were done so far. And the fact is he recognizes one thing,
he recognizes strength, and he hasn't seen it in Trump, and he knows that he can continue to move on and eventually move those borders toward where
he wants in an ultimate victory if we don't do more.
SCIUTTO: If Trump gives in, in effect, to Russian demands here, does Congress stand in the way? I asked your Republican colleague Don Bacon
yesterday. He said he believes that Republicans and Democrats together might have the votes to force a vote to impose new sanctions on Russia. Do
you agree? Do you see that moving forward?
QUIGLEY: We came really close last week. You know, members like Mr. Bacon and Fitzpatrick and others have shown a willingness to try to build a
bipartisan, bicameral coalition. I thought we came close last week. I think Mr. Meek's bill is a better bill, but I don't think we can pass it in the
Senate. I think that Mr. Fitzpatrick's bill can pass in the Senate. We can do more. I just don't see an appetite yet.
Maybe some cracks and fissures from challenging this president that came from, of all themes, Epstein. Maybe that will pave the way for some more
opportunities. But a few more of them have to step up. It can't be the same old standbys.
SCIUTTO: Congressman Mike Quigley, thanks so much for joining. We wish you and your family a happy Thanksgiving.
QUIGLEY: The same to all of you. Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Well, back here in the U.S., the FBI is now looking to interview six Democratic lawmakers who, you may remember, posted a video urging
military and intelligence officials to disobey orders if they are illegal. Their video does not say exactly what illegal orders they might receive,
but their message may have been spurred by the Trump administration's strikes on suspected drug vessels, deadly strikes, or perhaps its
deployment of National Guard troops in U.S. cities.
In response to the inquiry, the four House members in the group accused President Trump of, quote, "Using the FBI as a tool to intimidate and
harass members of Congress."
Joining us now to discuss are Arlette Saenz. So, we already saw this possibility of calling one of them right back to military service so he
could be court-martialed. What does this mean here? Do we know how serious these FBI interviews are?
[18:15:00]
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All we know right now is that the FBI has requested interviews with these six Democratic lawmakers. It's unclear,
though, what exactly those interviews are for, whether there's a separate investigation or if this could be related to what you were referencing with
the Pentagon and Senator Mark Kelly.
The Pentagon has said that they're conducting an investigation into allegations of serious misconduct. That's the description that they've
used, which could potentially lead to him being recalled to active duty so he can face a court-martial or administrative punishment. I think we're
still waiting to learn what exactly these FBI requests will entail.
Now, what we do know is that the FBI put in this request to U.S. Capitol Police, and then they refer that to the House and Senate sergeant-at-arms,
and each of the offices has concern that they've received this request. We don't know if anyone's actually going to sit for interviews at this point.
And it was noteworthy that in Senator Elissa Slotkin 's post on this this afternoon, she said that the FBI's counterterrorism division appeared to
open an inquiry into her over this video. So, that gives you an idea of where this might be coming from within the FBI, but we're still waiting to
learn more details.
SCIUTTO: So, that's interesting because Trump accused them of high treason, right, which he said, and notably to some, you know, consternation
that that would bring the death penalty. If it's the counterterrorism division, does that mean they may be pursuing another legal pathway here?
SAENZ: It could potentially, but we really don't have, like, too many other details right now. The House minority leader was on CNN in the last
hour and said that he doesn't think there's any basis for this investigation, that basically President Trump has directed his
administration to pursue and look into additional information relating to this video. But he said ultimately, it's going to be up to the lawmakers
whether they're going to sit for this interview or not.
SCIUTTO: So, in other words, they could refuse and say, I'm not showing up?
SAENZ: With their lawyers, they could decide that, but I'm not sure what the path will be.
SCIUTTO: Well, listen, this won't be the first time when there's been some questions about that. Arlette Saenz, thanks so much.
Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro today marched through Caracas with his supporters. This as U.S. officials say that President Trump is now
considering direct talks with Maduro. That's even though the Trump administration designated him and his allies as members of a foreign
terrorist organization on Monday.
Colombia's president says the Venezuelan leader's big problem is called democracy. In an interview with our colleague Isa Soares, President Gustavo
Petro said U.S. pressure, though, has nothing to do with democracy or drugs. It is all about Venezuela's oil.
Isa joins us live from Bogota, where that interview wrapped up just a few hours ago. That's interesting, because that is the suspicion in the region,
is it's not, that this is really, you know, it's an oil grab.
ISA SOARES, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, that's exactly right. This is something we have been hearing repeatedly, of course, from voices
within the region. And he didn't hold back, Jim, quite honestly. I thought this would be an opportunity to lay out some sort of olive branch, of
course, to President Trump, given, of course, the relationship between them both, which is clearly deteriorate in the last six months or so over those
strikes off the coast of Venezuela.
But President Petro basically said, look, this is not about democracy. You know, Trump's actions or interests in Venezuela is not about democracy,
it's not even about drugs, which he says there's very little of in Venezuela. It is, in fact, he says, about oil. And he gave the example, you
only need to look at what's happening in Ukraine and the interests there from President Trump. Have a listen to this little exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUSTAVO PETRO, COLOMBIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): A negotiation about oil, I believe that is Trump's logic. He is not thinking about the
democratization of Venezuela, let alone the narco-trafficking. They are going to get the oil almost for free, because that's what the anecdotal
evidence suggests. Trump is not negotiating with Maduro when it comes to drugs, because Trump is not a fool.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, it was hinting there, Jim, that any sort of negotiation, if there is one, when it starts, that you were saying Trump is not a fool. He
will be seeking some sort of Venezuelan interests. And those Venezuelan interests lie, of course, in its world's reserves, oil reserves, the
largest oil reserves in the world, which have not been exploited due to, some say, mismanagement by the Maduro government, by sanctions, as well,
just crippling infrastructure.
Although, importantly, the Chinese and the Russians have put a lot of effort and indebted much of Venezuela, so it's huge interest there. We also
heard from President Petro, when I asked him, of course, how he sees Nicolas Maduro, whether he should get on a plane out -- be allowed to get
on a plane out of Venezuela, he said, yes, he should, but he should face due process, given, of course, the accusations by the United Nations of
crimes against humanity.
[18:20:00]
He didn't go as far as to say, Jim, interestingly enough, that he was a dictator. I pushed him on that a couple of times. He said, look, the
question, the problem of Venezuela is the lack of democracy. But he fell short of calling him, one, a dictator. And he fell short, and basic, very
clearly said, he's not the head of narco-trafficking, he's not a narco- lord, which is what we heard from the United States. And he's not the head of the Cartel de los Soles, which we have seen the United States go after
him, attack him, and actually, in fact, designating him just in the last 48 hours or so, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Listen, it wouldn't be the first time President Trump has explicitly connected mineral rights, right, to what is beautifully a
national security issue, think of Ukraine and mineral rights there. Isa Soares, good to have you in Bogota, thanks so much.
Still ahead, consumer spending slowdown. New data shows Americans in a cautious mood as the holiday season kicks off. We'll see how Macy's is
hoping to get shoppers still into its stores.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back in today's Business Breakout. A third straight day of gains on Wall Street. The Dow rose almost 1.5 percent, as odds seem to
be increasing for a Federal Reserve interest rate cut next month. Investors now see more than an 80 percent chance for a cut. Tech stocks advance as
well, despite a drop in the shares of NVIDIA. Meta is reportedly looking at buying billions of dollars' worth of A.I. chips, not from NVIDIA, but
Alphabet. That's raising questions about NVIDIA's ongoing market dominance.
New numbers out today show U.S. consumer confidence fell sharply this month, and that retail sales rose at a weaker-than-expected pace. As more
Americans worry about the higher cost of living, stores will need to work harder to attract shoppers this holiday season. Vanessa Yurkevich visited
the Macy's flagship store in New York to find out how the company is still hoping to lure customers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NATA DVIR, CHIEF MERCHANDISING OFFICER, MACY'S: You want to throw some hoops?
VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Yes.
DVIR: OK.
YURKEVICH: Are we going one-on-one?
YURKEVICH (voice-over): A friendly game of hoops with Macy's chief merchandising officer, Nata Dvir.
DVIR: Very good.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): This is Macy's NBA experience at their New York flagship store. It's one of a half-a-dozen interactives, including an
exclusive Disney partnership.
DVIR: Very cute.
YURKEVICH: And their first national Santa tour.
YURKEVICH: He's an O.G. balloon.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): That Macy's hopes will lure customers into stores this critical holiday shopping season.
[18:25:00]
YURKEVICH: Is it not enough just to have Macy's be an experience in itself that you want to have extras?
DVIR: We want to make sure that we have experience in all the different ways the customers are looking for it.
YURKEVICH: More Americans are going to be shopping online this holiday season than in store, but Macy's says they still expect a lot of their
business to come from in-store shopping because of experiences and unique experiences, like this one. This is Holiday Square. It's like a little
Christmas market that you see outdoors, but it's indoors.
DVIR: When you see how customers are shopping, there's still a lot of traffic happening in the malls and in-stores for the convenience of having
the delivery. Speed is incredibly important, but customers still want to touch and feel things and smell things too. And so, those are the things
that we want to make sure that we're really showcasing in our store.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): Macy's is a legacy brand, around since the 1850s. But like every retailer, it's navigating an unpredictable holiday season,
with shoppers being more careful with their money. Wells Fargo expects three and a half to four percent holiday sales growth this year, not
adjusted for inflation. So, actual spending could be flat.
YURKEVICH: What are the biggest challenges that consumers are facing this holiday season?
LAUREN MURPHY, MANAGING DIRECTOR, WELLS FARGO RETAIL FINANCE: Consumers are facing the tariff in prices, right? So, they're seeing that across the
board. Inflation has still not come down. So, everything across the board is up to three, four percent.
YURKEVICH: What about for a legacy retailer who has to compete with online shopping, really fast shipping, and fast fashion? How do they stand out
this holiday season?
MURPHY: I think brick-and-mortar still has a place in people's hearts this holiday, right? And you look at the winners and losers in retail, and it
really comes down to merchandising and that customer experience when they walk in.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): Macy's merchandise comes from over 25 countries, so it's subject to President Trump's tariffs. To keep prices as low as
possible, Macy's has split the cost among vendors, the company, and customers.
YURKEVICH: What are those categories that people can expect to pay a little bit more?
DVIR: Toys, which is one where we saw the prices go up. I think sweaters was another place where we saw it. But I think the value that they're going
to see is going to warrant where those ticket increases are.
YURKEVICH: Is that even avoidable?
DVIR: You know, at some point, some things aren't.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): Macy's is doubling down on stores, upgrading hundreds, part of its current turnaround plan following years of slumping
sales. The company recently posted its first sales growth in three years, but still plans to close dozens of underperforming stores.
YURKEVICH: There were some complaints, you know, few years ago that the stores felt messier. They lost their luster. How much has that been part of
the turnaround?
DVIR: We're taking that seriously. We spend a lot of time, not only in our stores with our teams, but also making sure that we're listening to the
customer to see that we're making progress. And we're not yet where we want to be, but we're making a ton of progress to get towards where we'd like to
go.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): Vanessa Yurkevich, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Checking some of today's other business headlines. HP says it will cut up to 6,000 jobs in order, it says, to streamline operations. The
computer maker says it will use A.I. to speed up product development and boost productivity. The company also lowered its earnings outlook due in
part to the effective higher U.S. tariffs.
Sources tell CNN President Trump delayed the release of a new health care proposal on Monday due to opposition from Republicans. Reports say the
president was expected to announce a two-year extension of Affordable Care Act subsidies to prevent a spike in premiums for millions of Americans.
Remember, that's what Democrats were fighting for in the shutdown. Proposal was also said to include other Republican friendly health care reforms. The
White House said late today the president is not considering a straight two-year subsidy extension. Quite a disagreement.
U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent says President Trump could announce his choice for the new Federal Reserve chairman before Christmas. Bessent
said the search has now narrowed to five candidates. Bloomberg News reports that White House economic adviser Kevin Hassett is now the front runner for
the job. Jerome Powell's term as Fed chair ends in May.
Coming up on "The Brief," President Trump reached out to Japan's leader shortly after he spoke to China's leader, touting strong U.S.-China
relations. What does all this signal for Japan and also, crucially, for Taiwan?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto, and here are the international headlines we're watching today. President Donald Trump says
there will be no meeting with the Ukrainian president or his Russian counterpart until a deal to end the war is final. A Ukrainian source tells
CNN that no final text has yet been agreed to, though. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov says an amended peace plan must reflect the spirit
and letter of the Trump-Putin summit in Alaska back in August.
French police say they have detained four more people they say were involved in the heist at the Louvre. Two men and two women are being held
in addition to four others already in custody in connection with the brazen theft. Last month, these broke into one of the most famous museums in the
world in daylight, mind you, and made off with priceless jewelry, which, crucially, has yet to be recovered.
The capital of Bangladesh was rocked by a massive fire on Tuesday evening. The blaze swept through a slum in Dhaka's city center, home to some 80,000
people, including many migrants. Fire officials said 16 fire engines responded, the cause of the fire not immediately known.
President Trump held a phone call with Japanese Prime Minister Sanae Takaichi, who recently angered Beijing by saying that Japan might respond
militarily if China were to attack Taiwan. The White House confirmed that the call took place, did not give any details. This comes after the U.S.
president's conversation on Monday with the Chinese leader, Xi Jinping. China's foreign ministry says that Trump told Xi that the U.S. understands
how important the Taiwan question is to China.
Following that call, President Trump praised U.S.-China relations on social media, saying he's going to visit the country in April. He did not mention
Taiwan. Joining me now is Daniel Kristenbrink, former U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs, as well as former
ambassador to Vietnam. Good to have you.
DANIEL KRISTENBRINK, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO VIETNAM: Thank you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: You know better than anyone that the way leaders talk about Taiwan and the exact phrasing they use is parsed, and it means something to
folks in Asia.
KRISTENBRINK: It means a lot.
SCIUTTO: So, for China to say the U.S. quote, "understands how important the Taiwan question is to China," do you read that as Trump moving closer
to their position on Taiwan?
KRISTENBRINK: Well, Jim, thanks for having me on. Look, it's hard to tell because what you're reading is the Chinese readout of the president's call
with Xi Jinping. Of course, in the president's own readout, he doesn't mention the word Taiwan.
[18:35:00]
China, of course, is well known for spinning their readouts in ways that support their interests more than anyone else's, obviously, and being very
selective in how they do so. My worry about that readout is that given that the president was silent in his readout and all we have to go on is what
the Chinese have put out, I think that could make some friends in both Tokyo and Taipei a bit nervous.
SCIUTTO: We've seen this administration do different things with regards to Taiwan. For instance, they've been selling weapons, right, and that's
something that China certainly doesn't like, and that supports, you know, in theory, Taiwan's defense. But going back to his first administration, I
spoke to former Trump administration officials who said that from his point of view the U.S. really has no business defending Taiwan. It's just too
much of it. It's an uneven fight, in effect, in his view.
In the region, do people believe that a United States of America under President Trump would come to Taiwan's defense, or that that's a question?
KRISTENBRINK: Well, look, the -- you know, even though it's not explicitly U.S. policy, strategic ambiguity really has been the U.S. goal for decades,
right? And you don't want to say explicitly what you will or will not do in any contingency because I think what everyone recognizes is this peace and
stability across the Taiwan Strait, the absence of conflict over Taiwan is in everyone's interest. I think even friends in Beijing would recognize
that.
So, I think the key to this current situation, Jim, is whether we can keep things on an even keel and whether we can control escalation. You know, the
Chinese escalated right out of the gate after Prime Minister Takeichi made her comments, implemented a number of coercive economic punitive measures.
Japan's been quite actually measured thus far in its response. We'll have to see where that goes.
But again, the reason why we're talking about President Trump here is the U.S. has always played the traditional security guarantor role when it
comes to cross-strait peace and stability and when it comes to Japan's security. And so, the relative silence in Washington, I think, has unnerved
friends a bit in Tokyo and Taipei.
SCIUTTO: OK. So, let's talk about Tokyo specifically because when Takeichi took power, Trump, of course, welcomed her. And the impression was that he
views her as the successor to his old and sadly late friend Shinzo Abe, fellow conservatives, et cetera. Are Japanese leaders now concerned about
the depth of the U.S.-Japan ties under Trump? I mean, was this a worrisome signal that Trump's not coming out to defend Japan, for instance?
KRISTENBRINK: Well, Jim, you know, maybe early on there were some of those concerns in Tokyo. I think more recently friends in Tokyo have been more
reassured. Look, I thought the president's trip in October was actually quite successful. And particularly his stop in Tokyo probably could not
have gone any better -- you know, even better than they could have scripted it themselves. He said all the right things about the U.S.-Japan alliance.
He and Prime Minister Takeichi clearly got on very well.
So, I do sense that Japanese friends probably would have liked to have seen more coming out of Washington in the last few days. But Ambassador Glass in
Tokyo has been quite forceful. The State Department deputy spokesperson did issue a statement. And then maybe most importantly, it took a little bit of
time, but President Trump did pick up the phone and called the prime minister. And according to, again, the prime minister's readout, the call
went quite well.
So, I think Japanese friends would probably like to see more. But right now, I think they're generally satisfied with where we are.
SCIUTTO: OK. The beginning of the year when you and I were talking was the start of a trade war that Trump declared, Liberation Day, you remember all
of that. Where does that stand now in Asia? Do they believe that the U.S. president is backing off a trade war?
KRISTENBRINK: Well, I guess what's most striking to me, Jim, is if I were to describe the first several months of this administration, I would use
terms like disruption and generating leverage for negotiations. If I were to describe the last few months of the administration's priorities, I would
focus on deal making and stability, particularly highlighted by the president's trip.
I'm not sure I know too many friends in Asia who are happy with, you know, having between 15 and 20 percent tariffs on them. But those levels are
generally uniform across the region, and they're certainly much lower than what we saw on Liberation Day. So, I'm sensing a certain sense of relief in
the region that things have stabilized a bit. But I think this China-Japan spat shows that, you know, nothing is guaranteed and there will be ups and
downs and challenges. But things are definitely better than they were in the first half of the year.
SCIUTTO: You were recently in China. Does China believe it won the trade war? You told me previously that China believed it could eat more
bitterness than the U.S. in a trade war. Do they believe they've come out on top?
KRISTENBRINK: I think some do, Jim. I think, you know, what actually is most striking to me in the current moment is the level of Chinese
confidence and swagger. It's probably at a level that I haven't seen for some time. I think the Chinese leadership feels, again, they fought this
trade war with the United States to a standstill. Unlike the rest of the world, they stood up to the United States, fought tooth for tooth, you
know, eye for an eye, and they're feeling quite confident about that.
[18:40:00]
And one of my concerns would be, you know, Chinese overconfidence could lead them potentially to overplay their hand, including on this Taiwan-
related issue with Japan. I think that's something that we have to pay attention to.
SCIUTTO: Right.
KRISTENBRINK: Chinese friends right now are probably happy to have a modicum of stability in the U.S.-China relationship. That's what both sides
have. Will they be tempted to try to push their advantage in the new year? I think we have to pay very close attention to that.
SCIUTTO: Actually, it's exactly the dynamic I hear about in Europe with regards to Russia and Ukraine. It's like, do they push or sense
opportunity? Dan Kristenbrink, thanks so much for joining us.
KRISTENBRINK: Thank you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Just after the break, the oldest survivor of the Tulsa race massacre has now died, remembering her legacy in the fight to recognize one
of the worst racist episodes in American history.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Viola Fletcher, one of the last remaining survivors of the Tulsa race massacre, has died at 111 years old. Fletcher took her traumatic
childhood and turned it into a life of action, pursuing justice for one of the worst episodes of racist violence in American history. CNN's Omar
Jimenez sat down with Fletcher multiple times during her final years.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VIOLA FORD FLETCHER, 111-YEAR-OLD TULSA RACE MASSACRE SURVIVOR: You know, that's just what we're here for, is for justice.
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She was known as Mother Fletcher, the oldest living survivor of the Tulsa race massacre, Viola Ford
Fletcher was seven years old at the time. But the memory, even over a century later, never faded.
JIMENEZ: What do you remember about the time?
FLETCHER: People getting killed and houses, property, schools, churches and stores getting destroyed with fire. It just stays with me. You know,
it's just the fear that I have lived in Tulsa since, but I don't sleep all night living there.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): In 1921, a rumor a black man assaulted a white woman ended in a white mob destroying Tulsa's Greenwood neighborhood, a thriving
black owned business district at the time. Thousands of black residents were arrested, while others were robbed, beaten and killed. Fletcher was
born in Oklahoma, and in the decades since the massacre, she's largely stayed silent, fearful of retaliation for even speaking of the violence
that changed her life forever. But those years of silence eventually powered her voice.
FLETCHER: I'm asking my country to acknowledge what happened in Tulsa in 1921.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): And she sat with CNN multiple times over the years.
FLETCHER: People getting shot and falling dead.
[18:45:00]
JIMENEZ (voice-over): She and the other living survivors at the time were pursuing a lawsuit against the city of Tulsa and other related departments,
alleging they were complicit in the 1921 massacre and that its effects were still being felt today. They argued they should be compensated by the city
for damages.
HUGHES VAN ELLIS, VIOLA FORD FLETCHER'S BROTHER: Make us whole, that's all we ask for.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): Fletcher's brother, Hughes Van Ellis, died waiting on that justice in October 2023 at the age of 102. The Oklahoma Supreme
Court dismissed their case in 2024.
Now, 111-year-old Lessie Benningfield Randle is the only living survivor. When she learned the news of Fletcher's passing, she said, that breaks my
heart. I will miss her dearly. God bless her, as was relayed to CNN by her granddaughter. And Fletcher's grandson, Ike Howard, told CNN in part, maybe
she was given more years so she could bear witness. So, she could help us all understand and heal.
The last time I sat with her, her hearing wasn't always perfect. But as we wrapped up --
JIMENEZ: You look great, you sound great.
FLETCHER: Well, I'm good.
JIMENEZ: Oh, you heard that? That was --
JIMENEZ (voice-over): Viola Ford Fletcher, 111 years old.
JIMENEZ: And those smiles come with a pain, her family says, she could never truly escape. And one they hope this country never forgets. And yes,
her legacy will go on through work of the Viola Ford Fletcher Foundation. But that feeling is also captured in the title of the memoir she wrote with
her grandson, "Don't Let Them Bury My Story." And I want to read just a quick bit of it, because I think it captures a lot of who she was. Saying,
it's easy to be consumed by the darkness, to feel small in the face of adversity, but you are not small. It goes on to say, hold on to hope, stay
true to yourself, and never let anyone bury your story.
Omar Jimenez, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: A lot of history in that life. Coming up, China launches its first emergency space mission to help try to get Chinese astronauts back to
Earth. We'll have the story in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: In Rome, an 800-year-old medieval tower is undergoing renovations, but partially collapsed earlier this month, killing one
worker. Weeks later, authorities are still investigating exactly what happened. From Rome, Ben Wedeman reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The fire brigade was on hand after part of the tower had caved in, when another
section of the 800-year-old structure in the heart of old Rome collapsed in a cloud of dust.
For more than 15 years, the Torre dei Conti was left abandoned until 2022, the city began to renovate this medieval landmark. The tower's collapse in
November killed one Romanian worker, badly injuring another.
[18:50:00]
WEDEMAN: Because a worker was killed in the partial collapse of the tower, a special investigation has been launched. And as part of that
investigation, all work on this brand-new metro station, which is just down the street from the tower, has been halted.
WEDEMAN (voice-over): It happened in an area undergoing massive underground work. Down the boulevard in Piazza Venezia, a metro station for
the new sea line is being dug 11 floors below the surface.
According to a statement from Rome's city prosecutor provided to CNN, among the hypotheses being examined is vibrations from the metro sea construction
sites, but the central question remains about human error during the renovation. When asked for comment, the municipality issued a brief written
statement. The city is cooperating in the ongoing investigation and refrains from comment until the outcome of the judicial investigation into
the partial collapse of the tower.
Earlier this year, officials said structural surveys and load tests confirmed it was safe to start the latest phase of work last June.
TOM RANKIN, ARCHITECT, DIRECTOR OF BORROMINI INSTITUTE: But it's not a city that needs more architecture.
WEDEMAN (voice-over): Architect Tom Rankin has lived and worked in Rome for decades. Part of the problem, he says, is that the city's bureaucrats
don't share their plans with the public.
RANKIN: The lack of transparency about what's actually being designed, where I think that should be participatory. Like, urban regeneration works
best when it's participatory, where other people can weigh in on it, and that just doesn't happen here.
WEDEMAN (voice-over): In a city that counts its history in millennia, old habits die hard.
Ben Wedeman, CNN, Rome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: A mission to return stranded Chinese astronauts in space is now underway. China launched the unmanned Shenzhou 22 spacecraft on Tuesday.
You see it there. Its mission returned three astronauts who arrived on November 1st aboard the Shenzhou 21. Their craft was used to return a
separate crew whose spacecraft had sustained damage to its window. This current crew is expected to return sometime in 2026.
Joining me now, astronautical engineering professor and former NASA astronaut himself, Garrett Reisman. Thanks so much for joining.
GARRETT REISMAN, ASTRONAUTICAL ENGINEERING PROFESSOR, USC AND FORMER NASA ASTRONAUT: My pleasure, Jim. Good to be here with you.
SCIUTTO: So, how do you read China's space agency's response to all this? They had to get the first crew back. They had a crack in their windshield.
That's dangerous. Get them back down. Now, you have the other crew up there. Are they effectively having to wait? I mean, was there a plan in
place prior to take care of them as well?
REISMAN: Well, they were fortunate in that they were able to launch another rescue ship very quickly. So, I think they were only up there for
11 days without a way to come home. And that's not entirely true because they had the Shenzhou 20 vehicles there with them the whole time. It just
had a little crack in the window. And that's not something you really want when you're flying back from space, to have a crack in your window. But it
may or may not have survived. And if they had a real emergency in that interim period of about 11 days, they would have used it. So, they weren't
completely stranded, but they certainly didn't want to risk it if they didn't have to.
SCIUTTO: China developed this space station after it was excluded from the ISS, the International Space Station, because of U.S. national security
concerns. China's space program, it's run by its military. What's the view of their safety measures? Are they up to the same standards that the U.S.
and its partners follow?
REISMAN: Well, this is the very first time they've been really tested with an emergency situation like this. And I think they acquitted themselves
quite nicely, to be honest. It's not completely without precedent. Now, certainly you never want to be up there without a way, an assured,
guaranteed way to come home safely, but it's happened before.
In fact, it happened to me when I was aboard the International Space Station. My lifeboat was a Soyuz spacecraft. And we had the previous Soyuz
spacecraft come home with my commander, Peggy Whitson, and a couple other cosmonauts. And they had a very bad time home. In fact, it was nearly fatal
because of a failure of a part of the spacecraft. We didn't know if our lifeboat that was docked, that was our way home, had that same problem. So,
I was up there with a vehicle that was suspect as well.
I think it was maybe not quite -- it didn't have a crack in the window. So, maybe it wasn't quite the same severity, but it was a very similar
situation.
SCIUTTO: Yes. And as I remember, I mean, it wasn't long ago you had U.S. astronauts stuck up there for months on end, right? So, it sounds like this
is something they've got to deal with longer-term.
[18:55:00]
REISMAN: This is a recurring problem. Although, I have to say, in the case of Butch and Suni, there was always a plan to get them home, whether that
be in the Starliner or actually we modified a Dragon spacecraft to add more seats. So, they always had some backup plan.
SCIUTTO: That's good to hear. And I'm sure that means a lot to you when you're floating around in orbit. Garrett Reisman, thanks so much for
joining.
REISMAN: My pleasure, Jim.
SCIUTTO: In today's Good Brief, as many Americans begin to embark on travel for Thanksgiving, the U.S. Transportation Secretary is asking
passengers to dress a bit better at the airport. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN DUFFY, U.S. TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: I would encourage people to maybe dress a little better, which encourages us to maybe behave a little
better. Let's try not to wear slippers and pajamas as we come to the airport.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Slippers and pajamas, I have seen them. Secretary Sean Duffy is appealing for more common courtesies as well. The Federal Aviation
Administration says over the last six years, there has been a 400 percent increase in in-flight outbursts, ranging from disruptive behavior to actual
violence. Now, the Department of Transportation is launching what it calls a civility campaign to promote better behavior on flights and in airports.
I think we'd all like to see that.
Thanks so much for joining today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00]
END
