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The Brief with Jim Sciutto
CNN International: Immigration Crackdowns in New Orleans and Minnesota; Trump Calls Somalis in Minnesota "Garbage"; No Major Breakthrough in Witkoff-Putin Talks; Ukrainian Delegation Prepares for Meeting with U.S.; Anthropic Reportedly Preparing for Largest IPOs Ever; CNN Investigates Fate of Gaza's Missing Aid Seekers; China's First Reusable Rocket Explodes. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired December 03, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR, "THE BRIEF": Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, and
you're watching "The Brief."
Just ahead this hour the Trump administration launches a new immigration crackdown both in New Orleans and in Minnesota. NATO Secretary-General says
the U.S. president is the only person in the world who can broker a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine. And China's first reusable rocket explodes
before it can return to earth.
We begin though in New Orleans, Louisiana the latest focus of President Trump's immigration crackdown and raids. Bystanders recorded agents
operating in a heavily Hispanic suburb west of the city. One agent says in the video they chased men onto a roof before taking them into custody.
Federal agents were also seen in a separate suburb detaining a man outside a Home Depot. Homeland Security is calling the crackdown Operation
Catahoula Crunch. Catahoula refers to the state dog of Louisiana a hunting and herding breed. DHS says they're going after, quote, "the worst of the
worst."
Similar operations in other cities have rounded up migrants who have no history of violent crime. We should make that clear. According to the DHS
they are looking for burglars, gang members, and rapists with a target of some 5,000 arrests in total. New Orleans City Council member Lesli Harris
says that number simply unrealistic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESLI HARRIS, NEW ORLEANS CITY COUNCILMEMBER: I don't think that there are 5,000 worst of the worst out there. What we're learning is that they are
targeting people who are here legally who have been deported who are mothers of children, high school students. So, New Orleans right now is in
a place of fear and anxiety over this planned Catahoula Crunch as they're calling it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: CNN's Ryan Young is in St. Rose, Louisiana and Ryan what do residents there say about exactly who have been the targets of these raids?
RYAN YOUNG, CNN SENIOR U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, yes, they are concerned about who will be the targets, but they're just
nervous in general. In fact, today, we haven't seen many people in the neighborhoods that they feel will be targeted. In fact, I'm going to walk
you this direction. We've been sort of driving our control room crazy because, Jim, we've been driving for over a hundred miles today
crisscrossing not only the city but outside the city.
Back on this road right here, this is a private street right here, but there's an ICE facility back this way. We believe this is where they'll
bring the detained people back there before moving them to Mississippi. The reason why we're here is because this is private property. And so, they've
kicked us out of that area. So, we can't even keep really track of who's coming in and who's going out.
They're not communicating with how many people they have arrested so far today. We do know that number 5,000 seems so large that many people
including those in law enforcement don't believe they'll be able to hit a number that high. If you think about the other states where they were in
Chicago, where they were in Charlotte, North Carolina and across the state, they were not able to get a thousand people. Add California to that.
But this operation is going to encompass some 80 different miles from here to all the way to Baton Rouge, a really large area. We were outside
restaurants that have closed for the last few days. There are restaurants that are passing out whistles so that people see ice they can start blowing
the whistle and every single night they're training people in the community to be able to set up an alert system to be able to shut this down
hopefully. But, you know, so far, they are concerned.
In fact, take a listen to the mayor-elect talk about what she's concerned about when it comes to all the citizens in this area.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HELENA MORENO, MAYOR-ELECT-OF NEW ORLEANS: What they're seeing on TV and reports that they're seeing is not that Border Patrol is going after the
most violent criminals. You know, it's not -- that's not what they're seeing. What they're seeing is what appears to be racial profiling of brown
people and then going after these individuals and treating them like they are these significantly violent offenders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YOUNG: Yes, Jim, you and I have covered many different law enforcement stories while we've worked here at CNN together for years.
[18:05:00]
And one of the things that stood out to me, there are local law enforcement officers who are very nervous about the idea that these masked agents could
be out there on the street. This is a concealed carry state. You don't have to have a permit. A lot of people are armed, and what they're worried about
is if someone jumps out with a mask, could someone sort of shoot toward one of these Border Patrol agents?
We do know the FBI, the State Patrol, has made it very clear here they don't want to see any interference from people trying to use their cars or
use their bodies to stop some of these arrests. That's another concern. We also know on Thursday, there should be another large protest at City
Council. You heard from the mayor-elect, but there's a lot of people in this community who are upset because the current mayor hasn't made any
strong statements about what's going on here.
Let's not forget this is a red state, so there's a lot of action here with a lot of lawmakers throughout the state helping these agents move through
the city. This is going to be something interesting to watch over the next few days, but that number 5,000 seems sort of astronomical and not
something that could actually be accomplished in the next few days. Jim.
SCIUTTO: And the other thing you and I know, Ryan, from covering law enforcement, is that those masks are unique to ICE agents. Other than law
enforcement agents in dangerous jobs, they don't wear masks. Ryan Young, thanks so much.
YOUNG: Anytime.
SCIUTTO: Well, one of the other states facing Trump's immigration crackdown is Minnesota. A new operation is targeting undocumented Somali
immigrants in the twin cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul. President Trump used extremely demeaning language to refer to all Somalis on Tuesday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I don't want them in our country. Their country is no good for a reason. Their country stinks. We could go one way
or the other, and we're going to go the wrong way if we keep taking in garbage into our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: He called people garbage. And he didn't stop there. Today, the president renewed his attacks on Somali-American congresswoman, Ilhan Omar
of Minnesota, saying she should not be allowed to serve in Congress.
Well, President Trump has a history, a long one, of singling out certain immigrant groups or ethnicities with personal and legal attacks, often
blaming entire categories of people for the actions of one or a few. Let's take a moment to remember.
In 2015, following a terrorist attack in San Bernardino, California, Donald Trump infamously called for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims
entering the U.S. In 2017, after his election, he issued an executive order blocking entry from several Muslim-majority countries, including Iran,
Libya, Somalia and Yemen. Later, what came to be known as the Muslim travel ban was expanded to include other countries, in part to get past legal
challenges. A ban on travel from 19 countries, mostly in Africa and the Middle East, remains in place today.
Just last week, following the shooting by an immigrant from Afghanistan of two members of the National Guard here in D.C., President Trump terminated
the processing of all immigration requests related to Afghan nationals, even Afghans who served alongside the U.S. military during the Afghanistan
war. The U.S. is also reviewing all asylum cases approved during the Biden administration, again, blaming and punishing many tens of thousands of
people from one country for the actions, in this case, of one.
And now, Somalia is his target. He called Somali immigrants garbage, as you heard there, and declared on social media that, quote, "Somali gangs are
terrorizing the people of Minnesota and billions of dollars are missing." The president announced he is terminating temporary deportation protections
for all Somalis living in Minnesota now. His justification, a fraud investigation involving several individuals.
We should note more than one in two Somalis in Minnesota were born here in the U.S. And, of course, the vast majority of them are accused of no
crimes.
Joining me now is Minnesota State Senator Zaynab Mohamed. Good to have you on. Thanks so much for taking the time.
STATE SEN. ZAYNAB MOHAMED (D-MN): Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here with you today.
SCIUTTO: So, I need to ask what your reaction was to hear the president of the United States refer to Somali Americans, all of them, as garbage.
MOHAMED: You know, horrible. You have the leader of this nation that is calling a small, small population of this community, of the United States -
- a small community that's a part of the fabric of this country garbage.
I think what is horrible about it is the fact that this is not only language, it is a -- it is rhetoric that will allow people to do things
that are violent. We know just last June, my leader, Melissa Hortman, was politically assassinated. And we know that the language people use in these
times can have a direct impact on what happens in their lives.
[18:10:00]
And I think it's really important that people understand that he's not just calling Somali garbage, that this president is inflicting violence on our
community.
SCIUTTO: The other issue, of course, is that he's taking legal steps now to target members of the Somali community there. Do they fear, members of
your community fear they may be kicked out of this country, maybe even have their citizenship revoked?
MOHAMED: Absolutely. And, you know, ICE was here, came yesterday in the morning. And what we saw on the ground, it's not that they are only
targeting people without legal status in this country or people who committed crime, we have seen them pick up two United States citizens who
identified themselves, who had their passport IDs with them.
And so, they're not just targeting people based on what their legal status is or what their immigration status is or whether they have committed
crime, they are targeting people based on what they look like, what language they speak and who they are. And I think that's creating so much
chaos and community and so much fear.
SCIUTTO: Who's coming to your defense? I mean, because the trouble is when President Trump is taking steps like this in the past, I mentioned the
Muslim travel ban, ultimately, it survived legal challenges. It's the law of this country today. Do you have confidence that the law will protect
members of the Somali community from bans, citizenship revocations? You know, you name it, there are so many things on the table right now.
MOHAMED: Yes. I mean, this is a nation that's built on laws. And I think we all have to follow those laws, including the president of this country.
Somalis who came who are in Minnesota and across the nation came through this country the legal way. They went through the process. They got their
documentation. And almost half of them are second generation, third generation Americans. So, these people are the at the fabrics of this
community.
And I think if we were to question whether people are truly citizens based on when they got their citizenship or not, we are really in trouble because
we are questioning the entire constitution of this country. We have Norwegians who came here six, seven generations ago. Are we also going to
look at their citizenship? Are we also going to consider whether we should revoke them based on the actions of one of their communities? That is just
unacceptable. This is political theater. The laws stand on their own. And I think if the president were to come out against legal citizens that are
Somalis, the courts will not stand for that.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Listen, as I would say, all of us in this country are the children, the descendants of immigrants. Just a question of when, right?
Just a question of when our people came, except, of course, the people who are here originally.
You heard the president today say that Ilhan Omar should not serve in Congress, should not -- and should be sent home to her country. What's your
reaction to hearing the president say that about a sitting member of Congress?
MOHAMED: You know, Congresswoman Ilhan Omar is my congresswoman. She is not just a member of Congress, she is a trailblazer. She is somebody who is
beloved across the nation globally, and she has contributed more to this country than the president himself. She had gone through a lot in her life
and she gained her citizenship the right way.
And if the president can go after one person, not just one individual, but somebody who's sitting member of Congress, what will he do to the average
person who doesn't have power, who doesn't get to walk around the walls, the halls of power, who doesn't have people coming to their defense? I
think an attack on Congresswoman Ilhan Omar is an attack on every single immigrant across the nation. That's how we see it.
SCIUTTO: State Senator Zaynab Mohamed, we here are genuinely sorry you have to listen to this kind of language, and we thank you for joining the
program.
MOHAMED: Thank you so much.
SCIUTTO: President Trump calls Tuesday's talks between the U.S. and Russia, quote, "a very good meeting." He says he believes Russian President
Vladimir Putin wants to make a deal for peace in Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He would like to see the war ended. I think he'd like to get back to dealing a more normal life. I think he'd like to be trading with the
United States of America, frankly, instead of, you know, losing thousands of soldiers a week. But their impression was very strongly that he'd like
to make a deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: We should note this comes after the meeting at the Kremlin ended without any compromise on a peace plan. Ukrainian President Vladimir
Zelenskyy says his delegation is now preparing for a meeting with White House officials.
In Brussels, the head of NATO has emphasized the role of the U.S. president in particular in potentially ending Russia's ongoing invasion of Ukraine.
[18:15:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MART RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: There is only one person in the whole world who was able to break the death lock when it comes to war in Ukraine,
and that is the American, President Donald J. Trump. And he did. He started in February to get engaged, and he is engaged up to and including today.
And his team is engaged, including Steve Witkoff, Marco Rubio, and all the key players on the American side. And that's crucial, because in the end,
U.S. is by far the biggest ally in NATO and the strongest nation on Earth. And it's really up to them first to break that deadlock and then make sure
that all is followed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: What remains unchanged, however, is Russia demanding territory in exchange for stopping the war it started by invading. In Ukraine, many are
divided, questioning if that is a price they're willing to pay to end the bloodshed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We have a constitution and we have territory. My parents are still in the occupied territory. So, how can we
say, we're giving up on you? That's impossible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Honestly, I think that we have already lost the territories we have lost. To prevent further losses of
other territories, we need to settle for what we have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Fear now in Europe is that Russia might expand its war. Moldova has faced multiple airspace violations by Russian drones during large-scale
strikes on Ukraine. The most recent incident happened just over the weekend. Moldova's president said, quote, "On their way to kill civilians,
Russian drones again violated Moldovan airspace, forcing its temporary closure. We condemn these attacks and stand with Ukraine."
Joining me now is the deputy prime minister of Moldova, Mihai Popsoi. He is also the country's foreign minister. Thanks so much for taking the time.
MIHAI POPSOI, MOLDOVAN DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: My pleasure.
SCIUTTO: So, you heard the NATO secretary general there saying that President Trump is the only leader in the U.S., is the only country that
could make peace in Ukraine. Do you agree with that?
POPSOI: I certainly agree. The United States and President Donald Trump, given his commitment to peace, is certainly in the right position to create
the right circumstances to make sure that the Kremlin realizes that this prolonged bloodshed must stop and Ukraine must make sure that their
sovereignty and territorial integrity is in place, albeit given the realities on the ground that we all are aware of.
SCIUTTO: I spoke to a Ukrainian member of parliament earlier this week who said that she, and she said that she and many Ukrainians do not trust
Donald Trump's main peace negotiator, Steve Witkoff. They fear that he is presenting proposals that are favorable to Russia. Do you trust the U.S. to
be a fair mediator? Do you have any concerns yourself about Steve Witkoff as negotiator?
POPSOI: I am convinced and I certainly would like to believe that this effort is going to bring peace. I have no reason to suspect otherwise. The
fact that the United States is so firmly committed to peace, it's evident and we of hope that peace comes sooner to our region and the effort of the
administration is genuine.
We firmly believe that President Trump wants peace and he sees this bloodshed that has been ongoing for almost four years now as being an
incredible waste of human life, the destruction of world heritage sites in Ukraine, the destruction of enormous economic potential, of course. And I'm
firmly convinced that President Trump is genuine in his efforts in wanting to bring peace. He's a peace president and we would love nothing more than
to see peace return to Ukraine and to our broader region.
SCIUTTO: You heard President Putin say yesterday that Russia is prepared for war with Europe. Were those empty words to you or do you believe that
Russia poses a genuine threat to including to Moldova?
POPSOI: It's hard to underestimate the Russian threat in light of the barbaric aggression that we've seen for almost four years now. The Republic
of Moldova, of course, has been affected by the drones that fall on our territory, by the economic repercussions. We've welcomed the largest number
of refugees per capita to Moldova or we've provided access to healthcare, education, labor market, like any neighbor and any friend should.
At the same time, of course, it's pretty clear that the Kremlin is not particularly keen on peace for the moment. But if the right leverage is
created and certainly, the United States and the European Union and the free world generally, with the sanctions regime, which is biting, can
create the fertile ground to bring peace to our region and to make sure that we no longer have this senseless killing happening on a daily basis.
[18:20:00]
SCIUTTO: Russian drones continue to violate European airspace including Moldova's airspace. Do you believe that Europe and that NATO have responded
sufficiently to those air incursions or do you believe that Europe must respond more strongly to deter those kinds of attacks?
POPSOI: Well, if there is any silver lining in all this horror that we have gone through, it is the fact that the European Union and European
member states have really woken up to the threat that the Kremlin and Putin presents and the investments in security and defense that the European
Union, the member states and candidate countries like the Republic of Moldova are doing are going to make all of us safer, the entire free world
safer and this is certainly a step in the right direction.
SCIUTTO: Moldova had elections recently despite severe Russian interference as you know and I think one can say defeated that interference
and was able to carry out free and fair elections. What can Moldova show to other European countries about resisting that kind of political
interference, because as you know, they attempted in many countries?
POPSOI: That is true and I'm proud to say that Moldova and Moldovans are a real case of resilience. We stood tall against Russian malign actions in
the Republic of Moldova. We withstood this avalanche of undermining our democracy, trying to sabotage and undermine and take away our sovereignty
from us but Moldovans have been able to resist that.
This is a testament to the resilience of Moldovan society but also to the incredible support and solidarity that we've seen from the International
Community, from the United States who is a trusted partner for the Republic of Moldova in consolidating our democracy, in building freedom in the
Republic of Moldova and of course the European Union.
We are proud that we've been able to withstand this avalanche and this onslaught against our democratic institutions and we have been able to
conduct free and fair elections like we've done before. And now, we are in a position to share those lessons learned, those experiences in defending
the rule of law and Moldova's sovereignty and ensuring freedoms in the Republic of Moldova while at the same time securitizing our informational
space, building our energy independence, doing away from our dependence on Russian gas and electricity.
So, even though Moldova is a country that can be considered small but Moldovans have a big heart and we have shown this resilience in this
election and we are happy to share that experience with other friends and allies so that they don't have to endure what we had to go through.
SCIUTTO: Mihai Papsoi, thanks so much for joining the program.
POPSOI: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Still ahead IPO or bust? Reports a major A.I. firm is now planning to go public despite growing fears of an A.I. bubble.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:25:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. In today's Business Breakout, U.S. stocks posted gains for the second straight session, the Dow up almost 1 percent.
Weakness, however, in Microsoft. Reports say the firm is lowering its A.I. software sales targets. Microsoft denies that report.
The Financial Times says artificial intelligence giant Anthropic is planning a massive IPO which could launch as early as next year. The report
says the parent company of the Claude chatbot is working with lawyers on a deal that could become one of the largest public offerings ever. The news
comes as more figures in the financial community warn, however, of an A.I. stock bubble. The head of the IMF said today that A.I. sentiment could,
quote, "turn abruptly and then damage the global economy."
The Bank of England fears a plunge in A.I. stocks could trigger a crisis in credit markets. All this amid rising competition in AI. Reports say OpenAI
CEO Sam Altman issued a code red alert to employees this week, warning that rivals are catching up to OpenAI's ChatGPT.
Joining me now, Paul La Monica, senior markets writer for Barron's. Paul, good to have you back.
PAUL R. LA MONICA, SENIOR MARKETS WRITER, BARRON'S: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: So, I mean, you've heard all the A.I. bubble concerns. Is this a good time for Anthropic to do an IPO? Is it perhaps feeling a bit rushed
that they want to beat any sort of bubble bursting?
LA MONICA: That's possible. I think that, you know, Anthropic does have a fair amount of momentum and their success might be one of the reasons why
Sam Altman issued that code red alert. There are concerns on the part of OpenAI that ChatGPT may be losing some momentum to Claude, but also to
Google and its parent company, Alphabet. The latest Gemini update for A.I. tools has really taken, I think, the market by storm. And you've seen
Alphabet stock surge lately, even as NVIDIA and Microsoft have cooled a little bit.
So, I'm not so sure it's necessarily the case that, you know, the A.I. bubble may be bursting and that's a problem for Anthropic as much as it
might be that, you know, ChatGPT and OpenAI is facing a lot more competition, may no longer be the darling it once was.
SCIUTTO: I wonder, could there be a benefit to a public offering for one of these firms? Because right now the valuations of these companies, I
mean, exist in the private equity space, not really tested by the markets, which tend to, they don't always, but they tend to look at things like
profitability and bottom line.
LA MONICA: No, and it's not just profitability in the bottom line, Jim. It's short-term profitability in the bottom line. Companies like Anthropic
and ChatGPT, OpenAI, they have yet to be subject to the whims of public investors, who may punish a company for reporting strong earnings, but they
may not have been good enough or beaten the so-called whisper numbers on Wall Street that are higher than the official estimates, let alone, then
you have to worry about what your outlook and guidance is going to be.
So, you could have a great quarter and then people punish you because your outlook isn't as fantastic as they thought. Alphabet has obviously already
learned to manage that, as well as Microsoft, NVIDIA, Meta platforms. But for Anthropic and OpenAI, it could be a rude awakening if they do go public
eventually.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Sam Altman's warning is specific to the Claude chat bot. I wonder what his concern -- sorry? Yes. And by the way --
LA MONICA: I think Gemini as well. Yes.
SCIUTTO: It's good for you and me, right? Because you want -- I mean, we want competition to produce better products. But I wonder what his and
other U.S.-based A.I. firms current concerns are about DeepSeek. Because you remember when China came out with that several months ago, there was
concerns, oh, hey, wait a second, they're catching up to all of us.
LA MONICA: Yes. I think it's a little bit more nuanced. The big worries when DeepSeek really kind of caused this market sell-off back in January, I
think the worries there were that you would have cheaper A.I. from, you know, Chinese companies and competitors that may make it more difficult for
a company like OpenAI to charge a premium price and be profitable. I think the market got past that.
[18:30:00]
And the bigger concern now for Sam Altman and OpenAI, one, how are they going to really monetize OpenAI and ChatGPT? They're still not selling
advertising on it. Alphabet is obviously a dominant company because of advertising revenue. And they really seem to have a more narrow focus. You
look at Claude and Anthropic, for example, their CEO has also been talking a lot about adding life sciences workers so that they can bolster, you
know, A.I. for healthcare. And that's actually, I think, an area where people are expecting some big advancements, particularly with regards to
drug discovery and, you know, biotechs being able to focus and hone in on specific diseases more closely. That could be a great benefit for AI. You
don't really hear as much about that from Sam Altman and OpenAI and ChatGPT. So, they might be losing ground there as well.
SCIUTTO: Paul LaMonica, won't be the last time we talk about it. Thanks so much for joining.
LA MONICA: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Coming up, a CNN investigation into the fate of missing Palestinians near an aid station in Gaza and the horrific allegations about
what might have happened to them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto, and here are the international headlines we're watching today.
The U.S. crackdown on undocumented immigrants has begun in Louisiana. In New Orleans, businesses shuttered as the Department of Homeland Security
said its operation there would, it says, restore law and order, and that it was going after what it called violent criminals. A lot of evidence of
that.
[18:35:00]
Democrats on the House Oversights Committee have released photos and videos from the island in the Caribbean once owned by the late sex offender
Jeffrey Epstein, including this video, which shows one of the suites at Epstein's home. Several other photos have also been released. The Democrats
call them, quote, "a disturbing look into the world of Jeffrey Epstein and his island."
The doctor who illegally supplied ketamine to actor Matthew Perry has been sentenced now to two and a half years in prison. The powerful sedative led
to Perry's death in 2023 at the age of just 54. Dr. Salvador Plasencia pleaded guilty to four felony counts of illegal distribution of ketamine.
Now, a CNN investigation based on videos, satellite imagery and eyewitness accounts points to the Israeli military bulldozing bodies of some
Palestinians killed near an aid crossing in northern Gaza. IDF whistleblowers who spoke to CNN point to a broader pattern of the Israeli
military mishandling bodies in ways that could amount to war crimes. The result, families in Gaza left searching for answers about loved ones who
went missing while seeking aid.
CNN's Jeremy Diamond reports from Jerusalem. We must warn you, some of the images here are disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My brother is missing. Anyone who saw --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My cousin went missing yesterday in Zikim.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ehab Adel Mansour, 16 years old, went missing in the Zikim area.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son went missing while going to the aid area in Zikim on Sunday.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Messages from desperate families all searching for loved ones who went out to seek aid
and never came back. Twenty-three-year-old Ammar Wadi was one of them last seen in June going to the Zikim Crossing in northern Gaza, where United
Nations food trucks entered. His mother is still desperate for answers.
NAWAL MUSIEH, AMMAR WADI'S MOTHER (through translator): I just want peace of mind, to know what his fate is. Even if he is a martyr, praise be to
God. I just want to know what happened to him.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Wadi's fate is still unknown, but a CNN investigation based on video, satellite imagery and eyewitness accounts
points to the Israeli military bulldozing the bodies of some of those killed near the Zikim Crossing. IDF whistleblowers who spoke to CNN also
point to a broader pattern of the Israeli military mishandling bodies in ways that could amount to war crimes.
Collecting humanitarian aid became a deadly reality in Gaza over the summer before the ceasefire took effect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They killed him on the spot.
DIAMOND (voice-over): More than 2,000 Palestinians were killed by Israeli fire while trying to get aid, according to the World Health Organization.
The Israeli military has acknowledged firing toward these crowds, but said it does not intentionally fire at civilians.
Hundreds, some dead, others still clinging on to life, were hauled away amid the mayhem, including here, near the Zikim Crossing. But amid the
clattering of gunfire, others were left behind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Gunfire, death, killing, martyrs, so many martyrs.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Six aid truck drivers told CNN they saw dozens of bodies near the Zikim Crossing. One shared these photos, showing partially
buried remains, surrounded by aid boxes. Some said they witnessed Israeli military bulldozers burying bodies. They've asked us to conceal their
identities, fearing retribution from Israeli authorities.
There are bodies everywhere, decomposed skeletal remains, one truck driver told CNN. Some are covered with dirt because the army cannot tolerate the
smell of decomposing bodies, said another. I watched Israeli bulldozers bury the dead, said a third.
This video appears to show the aftermath of Israel's bulldozing, alongside a crushed, overturned truck, partially covered bodies of several
Palestinians jut out from the earth. A paramedic at the scene said rescue workers managed to haul away 15 dead Palestinians. With the ambulance full,
some bodies had to be left behind.
CNN geolocated the video to this location near the Zikim Crossing. You can see the overturned truck here, alongside bulldozed roads and track marks
left by heavy machinery or armored vehicles. These are the roads where crowds of starving Palestinians swarmed aid trucks on a near daily basis,
where they were fired upon and at times killed by Israeli gunfire.
[18:40:00]
We geolocated multiple videos of people being shot and killed to these bulldozed areas. The same areas where Palestinians said some bodies were
left behind in the chaos.
On August 9th, 31 hours after crowds are seen here, evidence of fresh bulldozing appears in the exact same location. This video shows just how
close Israeli forces, including this D9 bulldozer, were to those crowds.
The soldiers came in front of us, eyes to eyes, and the quadcopter was 10 meters away from us. They were shot in front of us, and there is a martyr
that stayed over there, and no one could get close to him. We begged the soldiers to carry him back, but they didn't allow us.
We provided the Israeli military with GPS coordinates for the locations where bodies were likely bulldozed and a detailed list of questions. The
military said bulldozers positioned in the Zikim area are, quote, ""used for operational purposes, to deal with IED threats and for routine
engineering needs." It denied they were used to remove bodies, but did not address questions about burying them.
The military also declined to describe its protocol for dealing with bodies in Gaza. The Israeli military's apparent improper disposal of bodies of
Palestinians stretched far beyond Zikim.
We spoke with two Israeli soldiers on condition of anonymity due to fears of retribution. Both described bodies of Palestinians being buried in
shallow, unmarked graves in different parts of Gaza.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Essentially, the idea was to shove the body with a bunch of dirt, clearing the road, and push it to the sides.
DIAMOND: And that was it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was it, yes.
DIAMOND: The grave was not marked?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
DIAMOND: There was no identification process or notification process to any international or Palestinian organization?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not that I was aware of. Not in my unit. So, essentially, we were never given any protocol or any order of how to handle
any bodies. There was never once that anyone told us, if you have a body, this is what should be done.
DIAMOND (voice-over): By allowing the dead to become the missing, international law experts say bulldozing bodies into unmarked graves can
violate international law. If those bodies are mutilated or desecrated, the practice can rise to the level of outrages upon personal dignity, a war
crime under the Geneva Conventions.
As for Ammar Wadi, about a month after he went missing in late June, his phone was returned to his family. A message had been left on the home
screen. Forgive me, mom, if anything happens to me. Whoever finds my phone, please tell my family that I love them so much. A message that reads like a
young man's final words. Words that are impossible for a mother to accept without a body to bury.
Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: And no chance to properly mourn. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:45:00]
SCIUTTO: Should you trust people? Pretty big question. And it's the question asked in a new book from the founder of Wikipedia. The book, "The
Seven Rules of Trust: A Blueprint for Building Things That Last." In it, Jimmy Wales argues that trusting complete strangers was actually the key to
Wikipedia's success and maybe could offer a lesson for our current untrusting times.
Founded in 2001, Wikipedia is now available in almost 300 languages, claiming tens of millions of articles and thousands of volunteers. Joining
me now is Jimmy Wales. Good to have you.
JIMMY WALES, WIKIPEDIA FOUNDER AND AUTHOR, "THE SEVEN RULES OF TRUST": Oh, good to be on. Thank you.
SCIUTTO: So, as you know better than me, you basically built a system based on the essential trustworthiness of people, right? That they check
the facts of these posts, et cetera.
WALES: Yes.
SCIUTTO: I just wonder, in today's world, not just a political polarization, but also straight up misinformation and disinformation
bombarding us from every direction, if you still trust that model?
WALES: Yes, I definitely do. I mean, one of the interesting things about the Wikipedia community is that we're completely obsessed with the quality
of sources. And, you know, so a lot of the nonsense that flows around the world on social media and so forth, doesn't really, you know, come into
play for us. We're always looking for traditional media, for academic journals, you know, and it turns out people are still basically very nice.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Tell me your reaction to the attack you get from one of the most powerful and richest men in the world, including in the tech space, of
course, Elon Musk, who calls Wikipedia, Wokepedia. He's trying to make his own alternative to it. How do you respond to his charges that you're not
trustworthy, that Wikipedia is not, that it is somehow left-leaning?
WALES: Well, I mean, you know, Elon says we're Wokepedia, that we've been, you know, I don't know, hijacked by left-wing activists or whatever. This
is just not true. I mean, certainly, I know the Wikipedia community, I know the Wikipedians, bunch of nerds, not particularly political. But this is
all part of a wider culture war that's going on. And so, you know, I understand that.
But I always say, look, if people see something in Wikipedia they think is biased and they complain about it, our reaction should be, great, come and
talk to us. Come and let's work on it. Let's figure out what we can do better. Because that's really the spirit of Wikipedia.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Listen, in my experience with Wikipedia, first of all, I read it, but also like in my own posting on it, I see people that, you
know, they do their work to make sure stuff posted about me is correct. You know, they don't pretend not to get it wrong. Tell me how facts, right,
survive in the A.I. present and future, right, which is supercharging a lot of these old tools used for misinformation and disinformation.
WALES: Yes. I mean, it's a really going to be a very interesting and very challenging time. I mean, you know, a few years ago, we started to hear
about fake news. And I mean, you know, actual fake news websites, not, you know, news that someone doesn't like. And, you know, the ability to create
a fairly large and plausible looking website is greater than ever, which means it will fool people who are not sophisticated media consumers and so
forth.
I mean, for Wikipedians, it's really hard to fool them. Like they know all the sources, they know the names of the newspapers and all of that and
they're pretty obsessed with all that. But, you know, broader in society, I mean, I worry about the funding model for journalism is incredibly
important. I mean, we've already seen a real devastation of local journalism in the last 20 years. So, I think there's a lot of work to do.
SCIUTTO: Yes. So, let me ask you this, and I'm going to encourage people to read the book so they understand the seven rules of trust as you lay
them out.
[18:50:00]
But for folks listening or watching right now, who might say, man, trust is dead. Facts are dead. You know, we're all -- you know, the battle is
already lost. Give me one or two of those rules that can give people faith that actually the truth and trust can win out.
SCIUTTO: Yes. I mean, I think one of them would be rule number three from the book. It's about purpose. Have a good purpose. So, for Wikipedia, for a
lot of organizations, businesses, like one of the things that defines what you're doing is your purpose. And as long as you stick to that purpose, it
does guide you in a good way that can help to build trust with others.
I mean, I tell the story of Airbnb, which went through a very early crisis of trust and then managed to really double down and think really hard
about, oh, people need to be able to trust that they can put their apartment up for rent on Airbnb and it won't get trashed. So, that took a
lot of steps to do that.
And, you know, I think in a lot of areas of life, you know, it's pretty obvious. You know, another rule of trust is transparency. You know, make it
clear, make it open.
SCIUTTO: And I -- in my experience, I find that sometimes human beings' ability to tell fact from fiction is underestimated, right? You know,
people, they know.
WALES: I think so, yes.
SCIUTTO: They know what -- they often know what's real because they can see it, like they can experience it.
WALES: Yes. I mean, that's definitely true. And, you know, actually one of the things that I always caution people, it's quite common for people my
age, I'm in my 50s, to say, oh, well, young people, you know, we really need to educate young people about this. But if you look at studies, it's
like young people are sometimes better at it than we are. Maybe we grew up, you know, not used to digital technology and so forth.
And I think we shouldn't underestimate young people. They're very passionate about ideas, very passionate about knowledge, and they also love
their TikTok videos, and that's OK too.
SCIUTTO: Yes, even with my own kids, I know that they will say -- I feel like they'll dig deeper than we did, right? That we tended to be more
passive consumers. You know, you sit down and watch the evening newscast, that must be true, right? They'll be like, wait, where did this come from?
Anyway, maybe they and you will help lead the way. Jimmy Wales, thanks so much.
WALES: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Just after the break, this Chinese reusable rocket booster sadly didn't make it. The test flight comes as the country is racing to catch up
with American rivals already supporting reusable rockets such as SpaceX. We'll take a look next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: A potentially historic moment for China in the modern space race ended in failure earlier today. The private Beijing-based firm LandSpace
says the rocket did launch successfully. But its first stage, the part that propels it, at liftoff exploded and crashed back to Earth instead of softly
returning to Earth, as planned, you can see it off in the distance there.
[18:55:00]
This was the first trial by a Chinese company to recapture a rocket booster after launch, as China's commercial space sector is trying to catch up with
American rivals like SpaceX. We should note some of their early tests failed as well.
Before I leave you, picture this scene, a liquor store broken into, bottle smashed, and the perpetrator found passed out on the bathroom floor. Except
the suspect was, in this case, not a human being, an animal. A raccoon, in fact, fell through one of the ceiling tiles of the shop, went on an alcohol
fuel rampage afterwards. You can see the trail of destruction earlier, and this was the scene that greeted an employee. The suspect escorted to an
animal shelter where he recovered and was returned to the wild, though probably with a hangover. Well, hopefully he learned his lesson.
Thanks so much for joining us today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00]
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