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The Brief with Jim Sciutto

CNN International: Kristi Noem Grilled by Lawmakers; U.S. House Lawmakers Question DHS Chief on Global Threats; Kilmar Abrego Garcia Released from ICE Custody; Disney-OpenAI Deal; U.S. To Take Seized Oil Tanker to American Port and Keep Oil; Machado Collects Nobel Prize; Ukraine's Plan for Peace. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired December 11, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR, "THE BRIEF": Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, and you're

watching "The Brief."

Just ahead this hour, U.S. Homeland Security Chief Kristi Noem heckled and even urged to resign at a fiery hearing into global threats on Capitol

Hill. Ukraine's plan for peace, security guarantees, membership in the EU, new elections, all proposed by partners currently attempting to come to an

agreement. We're going to hear reaction from a Ukrainian lawmaker. And is Hollywood's hang up with A.I. potentially softening? Disney has signed a

billion-dollar deal with OpenAI. That story and plenty more coming up.

We do begin with a contentious hearing on Capitol Hill. What is normally a routine briefing on global threats to the United States. Today's event,

however, took a particular focus on DHS tactics here inside the U.S. DHS Secretary Kristi Noem and other top officials answered questions from a

House Committee about foreign cyber-attacks, but also the risk of Antifa and this administration's expanding deportation policy. There was intense

criticism from Democrats. Ranking member Benny Thompson got straight to the point.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS), RANKING MEMBER, U.S. HOUSE HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE: You have systematically dismantled the Department of Homeland

Security, put your own interests above the department and violated the law. You are making America less safe. So, rather than sitting here and wasting

your time and hours more with more corruption, lies and lawlessness, I call on you to resign, do a real service to the country and just resign.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Of course, she did not answer that call. The condemnation, however, did not just come from lawmakers. There were anti-ICE protesters

who disrupted Noem's opening statement. The secretary, we should note, left the hearing early, saying she had to make another meeting, which, in fact,

had already been canceled. FBI Director Kash Patel did not bother to show up at all.

Annie Grayer joins me now. Some quite intense moments here where we're in effect. Noem was called to task, right? Evidence brought by Congressman

Magaziner, for instance, to contradict her previous statements.

ANNIE GRAYER, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: That's right. Democrats brought personal stories to the to this hearing where they just -- where they were

pushing back on Noem's deportation efforts, saying that this is not just going after criminals or bad guys, but that you are actually also deporting

mothers and children and veterans. And Congressman Magaziner even had on Zoom an individual to contradict Secretary Noem's perspective there.

And Democrats were holding Noem's speech to the fire on a number of issues. They say that she's been misappropriating congressional funds and using

them for her own personal benefit. They said that she's been ignoring congressional oversight for a large part of this year and were very

frustrated that she left this hearing early.

There was another exchange where the individual who was representing the FBI would -- FBI, as you mentioned, FBI Director Kash Patel wasn't there,

was talking about Antifa being the greatest threat in the -- in this country. And then in an exchange with the Democrats could not could not

specify further anything more about that threat, leaving more questions than answers there.

But this hearing really put on display the divisions on these issues, where if you were to hear Republicans in that hearing, they were largely giving

Noem support. They were praising her for the deportation efforts, which is, of course, something that President Trump ran on, talking about the low

border crossings and wanting to talk about events in the future, such as FIFA World Cup next year or the Olympics looking ahead to 2028 or America's

250th anniversary next year and how the secretary is working to better secure the country for those events.

But Democrats were furious in this hearing. They made it known that they are not going to give up on their oversight efforts, even though they feel

like that they are being blocked and really tried to poke holes throughout this hearing about ways that Noem's efforts are contradicting what they say

she set out to do.

[18:05:00]

SCIUTTO: Annie Grayer, thanks so much. So, to our point during the hearing, Secretary Noem asserted falsely that the administration has not

deported any U.S. military veterans. Congressman Seth Magaziner came with the goods. He proved her wrong, inviting one such veteran to join the

hearing from abroad via Zoom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. SETH MAGAZINER (D-RI): Madam Secretary, we are joined on Zoom by a gentleman named Sae Joon Park. He is a United States Army combat veteran

who was shot twice while serving our country in Panama in 1989. Like many veterans, he struggled with PTSD and substance abuse after his service. He

was arrested in the 1990s for some minor drug offenses, nothing serious. He never hurt anyone besides himself, and he's been clean and sober for 14

years. He is a combat veteran, a Purple Heart recipient. He has sacrificed more for this country than most people ever have. Earlier this year, you

deported him to Korea, a country he hasn't lived in since he was seven years old. Will you join me in thanking Mr. Park for his service to our

country?

KRISTI NOEM, U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Sir, I'm grateful for every single person that has served our country and follows our laws.

MAGAZINER: And can you please tell Mr. Park why you deported him?

NOEM: -- every one of them needs to be enforced.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Congressman Magaziner joins me now. I wonder if you could help me understand, and maybe we don't know, what legal standard DHS is currently

using to carry out deportations. I mean, is it literally any crime or even accusation of a crime?

MAGAZINER: Yes. I mean, listen, this is the important thing for people to understand. Secretary Noem and Donald Trump have lied to the American

people. They said that they were going to go after the worst of the worst, violent criminals and drug dealers. But that's not what they are doing. The

vast majority, by their own data, the vast majority of the people they have detained or deported have no violent criminal record. Many of them have no

criminal record at all. Many of them never even entered the country illegally.

In addition to Mr. Park, the combat veteran who took two bullets for our country who she deported, another man who is at the hearing today, a guy

named Jim Brown, his wife, Donna, is a legal green card holder, has lived in the United States for more than 40 years. She's been in prison for four

months. Her only crime is that she wrote two bad checks for $80 10 years ago. And a legal resident of the United States has never done anything

illegal except write a couple of bad checks. She's been in prison for four months and is facing deportation.

There are so many examples of the Trump administration just going after people, hardworking people, patriotic people, veterans, children, people

who haven't done anything wrong, in order to meet Stephen Miller at the White House, his artificial quota of trying to deport 3,000 people a day.

And the real tragedy of this, beyond the human tragedy of all the good, innocent people whose lives are being shattered by this cruelty, is that

they are also not focusing the full extent of their resources on the real threats.

Because there are bad guys out there who are trying to do harm to the United States. But the problem with this administration is that they don't

seem to know the difference between the good guys or the bad guys or care.

SCIUTTO: So, you cite the cases, and this has been fairly well established, that it's folks without violent crime convictions, et cetera.

But you're saying there are people who have been deported who have no criminal record whatsoever. So, what is the legal justification for those

deportations?

MAGAZINER: Well, listen, I mean, under the law, the administration has broad discretion to deport any non-citizen for, you know, essentially at

will. But there still has to be due process. And this is where they've really -- one of the ways that they've really overstepped is that the law

is clear that everyone in the United States, citizen or not, is entitled to due process under the law. And they have violated that due process time and

time again.

And due process exists for a reason. It's so that they don't accidentally deport the wrong person, deport U.S. citizens. They've made mistakes over

and over and over again because of lack of due process. And so, again, our concern here, one of our many concerns, is that they can't tell the good

guys from the bad guys. They have no regard for the law or due process. That's in addition to the rampant corruption that we're seeing at DHS.

But fundamentally, for any law enforcement leader, the most important thing to be able to do is tell the difference between the good guys and the bad

guys. And in this case, they can't. They are locking up and deporting Purple Heart recipients, combat veterans, children, kids with cancer. They

deported a four-year-old U.S. citizen with cancer. In what world is that U.S. citizen child, that four-year-old, a threat to national security?

They're not.

SCIUTTO: Well, you also have numerous cases of where U.S. citizens with no criminal record whatsoever have been detained by federal agents when the

agents demand that they present proof of their citizenship.

MAGAZINER: That's right.

[18:10:00]

SCIUTTO: On what legal basis are they doing that? I mean, theoretically, they could stop you or me. And if we don't happen to have our passport on

us at the time, right, they can take us away and say, we just want to prove that you're a legal resident.

MAGAZINER: I mean, by their own admission, they are openly racially profiling people, right? They are locking people up based on their

appearance and saying, well, you know, it's no harm, no foul. We release them a week later. Well, my God, like, you know, put someone in prison for

a week.

You know, they recently locked up a police officer for two weeks. Do you have any idea how dangerous it is to be a police officer in prison? And

then they released him after two weeks and he's back on the job and they say, oh yes, you know, our bad. So, incredibly dangerous.

And particularly when you're dealing with young people, with families being torn apart, this is going to traumatize people for the rest of their lives.

And listen, by all means, look, I represent a district that Donald Trump got 47 percent of the vote in. And, you know, by all means, people in my

district want the bad guys, want the drug dealers, the terrorists out of our country, but they don't want this. They don't want masked men

terrorizing American cities, locking up innocent people, including citizens, on a whim with no due process.

SCIUTTO: Listen, we saw some of that in the outcome of the votes, for instance, in New Jersey and Virginia, where support for Republicans among

Latino voters in particular fell off a cliff. You know, you mentioned due process. First of all, that's enshrined in law. But courts have ruled since

the start of the second term of the Trump administration that they must respect due process. Are you fearful that courts have insufficiently

enforced due process or that just this administration is openly defying the courts?

MAGAZINER: Well, it depends on the jurisdiction. I mean, one of the things that you've seen the administration do is if a district court in one state

tells them to change the way they're operating, well, then they just focus on a different state or a different jurisdiction, and they sort of hop from

place to place to try to find places where the courts will let them.

SCIUTTO: Yes, friendly judges, yes.

MAGAZINER: Yes, friendly judges, friendly governors, mayors, et cetera. But, you know, at a certain point, like there's going to be a reckoning

here in the sense that public opinion is shifting against this administration on every issue, but including on immigration.

And it's because, again, they see this administration going too far, trying to hit arbitrary targets, going after innocent people, and using tactics

that are totally irresponsible, firing tear gas at children. This is not the America that most of us know and love under this administration.

SCIUTTO: One more question before we go, because they claimed that Antifa is the number one domestic terrorism threat. For years, even going back to

the first Trump administration, as you know, consistently, the FBI and others have identified white supremacist groups as not the only, but the

primary threat. Are you fearful that they're skewing the data and intelligence to mold it to a political message and goal?

MAGAZINER: Well, first of all, you saw under questioning today -- first of all, these worldwide threats briefing that we had today, the Homeland

Security Committee has had this every year since 9/11, and this, I believe, is the first year that the FBI director didn't show up, Kash Patel. He

sent, you know, someone more junior to go, you know, be the fall guy.

And under questioning, he took the administration line that Antifa was the biggest domestic threat, but he couldn't name who runs this purported

organization, where they're based, how many members they have, because it's a boogeyman, right? It's a way for them to rile up their base.

What we do know is that domestic extremism is on the rise. Over the last five or six years, domestic extremists from the far-right have been more

violent than on the far-left. There have been some of both, and all of it is unacceptable.

So, by all means, whatever the motivation, whether it's left, right, or nonpolitical, we should go after domestic extremists that are committing

violent acts or plotting violent acts, but we should not be going after veterans, children, gardeners just trying to make a living, daycare

workers, so that the Trump administration can brag about some arbitrary number of actions, even when they're not justified.

SCIUTTO: Congressman Magaziner, we appreciate you joining the program.

MAGAZINER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Thanks so much. Well, now to some breaking news in one of the most controversial immigration cases brought by the Trump administration.

Kilmar Abrego Garcia has now been released from ICE custody. This is in the State of Pennsylvania. If you remember, Abrego Garcia was wrongfully

deported to an El Salvador supermax prison, then returned to the U.S. in June under enormous pressure from the courts, we should note. He had been

in custody on alleged human trafficking charges.

Earlier today, a federal judge ordered him to be released immediately. The judge wrote that this administration's, quote, "conduct over the past month

belies that his detention has been for the basic purpose of effectuating removal," and that, quote, "Abrego Garcia should be held no longer." The

Trump administration responded by criticizing the district judge and vowed not to give up.

[18:15:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The White House, the administration opposed this activism from a judge. As you saw from the

Department of Homeland Security, they issued a statement saying they'll continue to fight this legal battle in court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Garcia's attorney says his legal team will pick him up from the Pennsylvania facility where he was held and return him home to Maryland. A

little earlier, CNN spoke to Democratic Congressman James Walkinshaw of Virginia. He serves on the House Oversight Committee. He called this,

quote, "a huge victory for the rule of law.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES WALKINSHAW (D-VA): It's a huge loss for the Trump administration. I think it's a stinging rebuke, not just of the way that

they've treated Mr. Abrego Garcia, but of the lawless approach they've taken to the mass deportation effort writ large. It's been characterized by

cruelty and incompetence. And the Abrego Garcia saga typifies both.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now, immigration attorney David Leopold. He's a partner at the firm Thompson Hine. Thanks so much for joining.

DAVID LEOPOLD, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY AND PARTNER, THOMPSON HINE: Hi, Jim. How are you?

SCIUTTO: This, as you know, has been a long legal battle. The administration has lost multiple times, but it hasn't given up. They say

they're not giving up now. Is his legal journey over?

LEOPOLD: Well, of course it should be. I mean, this is a guy who was -- the Trump administration, number one, ruled that he should not be removed

to El Salvador originally back in 2019 because he faced imminent threats. This was the Trump administration. And when he was mistakenly picked up

almost a year ago now, he has been through hell. He's been through the gulag down in El Salvador, the CECOT prison and elsewhere. It should be

over. It should be over. The administration has lost. Due process has won today. This is a major victory.

The judge, Judge Xinis, did the right thing by releasing him. He shouldn't have been locked up in the first place. But unfortunately, we can tell from

the comment of McLaughlin, Judge McLaughlin, that they're going to keep this fight going.

SCIUTTO: Yes. One issue in this case, of course, was that the administration initially denied -- or defied, rather, a court order before

deporting him. And it seems there have been other cases where the administration moves forward, even when told otherwise, kind of begging for

consequences that don't quite seem to come. I mean, has that issue been corrected? I mean, are the courts effectively enforcing their orders?

LEOPOLD: You know, this is bigger than Abrego Garcia -- Kilmar Abrego Garcia. This is about the rule of law. This is about making sure that this

country is run by law, not arbitrary decisions by politicians in Washington.

And this case typifies that. Yes. I mean, here in this particular case, if you read the decision, Judge Xinis is frustrated, and she's right to have

been frustrated. Here, the administration basically is telling her lies. They're saying, well, we can't deport him. We're having trouble deporting

him. Meanwhile, Costa Rica would have taken him. It's just all over the place, the chaos here. And that's the problem.

We've got an attack on the rule of law. We've got an attack on due process. These are core American principles, Jim, core American values. And the good

news is they lost him.

SCIUTTO: To your point about Costa Rica being willing to accept him, Trump administration has persisted in trying to deport him to Liberia. Why? I

mean, is that deliberately punitive?

LEOPOLD: Deliberately punitive. That's the best way to put this. There is no reason, there would have been no reason to deport him to Liberia, to any

other country that they were talking about in Africa. Why? His family's here. His family is here in the United States. He's worked. My God, he was

picked up when he was driving his child is when he was picked up by Immigration and Customs Enforcement and then mistakenly deported.

You know, we are at a crossroads in this country. This is not what our founders, this is not what we imagined our country would be, where people

can be picked up, mistakenly picked up by masked men and women taken into unmarked cars and disappeared. This has got to stop. This is not what this

country is about. This is not about protecting the borders. This is an attack on the rule of law, an attack on the core principles of our country.

SCIUTTO: Well, it remains to be seen what's going to stand in the way of it going forward. David Leopold, we appreciate you joining.

LEOPOLD: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, one of the most storied names in Hollywood has struck a partnership with Artificial Intelligence, OpenAI, to be specific.

Why Disney's deal with the parent company of ChatGPT could upend the entertainment industry.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:20:00]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. In today's Business Breakout, a mixed day on Wall Street. The S&P and Dow rose to yet more record highs. Tech stocks,

however, pulled back after disappointing quarterly results from Oracle. Its sales and profit outlooks are fueling new fears about an A.I. bubble.

Oracle shares ending the day down 11 percent.

Global entertainment firms have grave concerns over exactly how artificial intelligence will transform their industry. But one Hollywood heavyweight

says it is now ready to embrace the technology. Disney announced today it is taking a $1 billion stake in OpenAI, the parent company of ChatGPT.

Under this new licensing deal, users of OpenAI's Sora app will be able to generate images and videos involving -- using more than 200 Disney

characters. That includes characters from the Marvel, Pixar and Star Wars franchises. It's a lot.

Groups working to cut children's screen time are blasting the move. One organization, FairPlay, says the agreement, quote, "betrays kids." It's

also concerning content creators. The deal comes as Time magazine names OpenAI founder Sam Altman and other major figures in the world of A.I. as

its person or persons, I suppose, of the year. Time calls them the architects of A.I.

Joining me now, Richard Quest. So, Richard, as you know, there's been concern in Hollywood for a long time about A.I. scriptwriting, you name it.

I mean, that was one of the core issues in the strike that we had a little while back. Bob Iger today says they have no reason to fear. In fact, it's

respecting and valuing our creativity because there's a license fee associated with it. I mean, is that a sufficient answer?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Look, you've got to decide, Jim, which angle do you want to look at this deal from? Just look at it

from Bob Iger and Disney. This is either genius, in that you're finally putting yourself and future-proofing yourself, or you're dancing with the

devil. You're actually gutting and doing something with an organization that could potentially ruin you long-term.

So, Bob Iger has taken this, what I think is brave, some say courageous, step in doing this deal, and he's doing it in a very structured way.

[18:25:00]

Yes, it's a billion to OpenAI, and it gives OpenAI's Sora limited rights to various Disney characters. But I asked ChatGPT, I always think it's best to

ask, you know, the opposition itself, what they think of the whole thing. I asked them what the deal's about, and it says the deal does not, it does

not give OpenAI ownership of Disney characters, it does not allow deep faking of real Disney actors, it does not allow users to generate entire

movies, et cetera, et cetera. What it does do is give Disney a leg up, in a sense, and puts them at the heart of this new generative video.

SCIUTTO: I kind of feel like it's someone saying, oh, talkies won't threaten, you know, our beloved silent movies. I mean, just --

QUEST: Yes. But when Al Jolson --

SCIUTTO: -- that opens.

QUEST: But when Al Jolson did that movie in "The Jazz Singer," there was a revolutionary change and it happened, and it's the same thing here. So,

which is why I say, you've got to look at -- decide where you're looking at it from.

If you're Bob Iger, you don't really like this deal, but you know you got to do it. If you're Hollywood, you'll worry about, well, you know, how

strong are these guardrails? No deep fakes, no real actors, no blah, blah, blah. No, this is a thin edge of the wedge, no question.

SCIUTTO: Yes. I mean, I guess with licensing, they're going to get some money out of it, right? There's a fee. So, that's something. Richard Quest,

thanks so much.

QUEST: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Checking now some of today's other business headlines, U.S. Senator Elizabeth Warren wants NVIDIA CEO Jensen Huang to testify before

Congress over chip sales to China. The White House has now given NVIDIA permission to sell advanced A.I. chips to China after a three-year ban,

surprise to many. Warren is blasting the move, saying it endangers America's national security. She also says it threatens U.S. technological

leadership. She's not alone.

First time, U.S. jobless claims posted their largest increase in almost four and a half years last week. The data comes just one day after U.S.

Federal Reserve cut interest rates again, citing what? Concerns about the job market. Economists point out that jobless claims are more volatile than

usual this time of year. The U.S. government is now set to release its November jobs report next week after it was delayed by the government

shutdown. Lots of folks are going to be watching those numbers.

Elon Musk today confirmed numerous reports that SpaceX is looking to go public in the new year. Musk called the reports quote, "accurate." The

private space firm could be looking to raise more than $25 billion in a blockbuster IPO, valuing the company at what? More than a trillion dollars.

That would make it one of the largest IPOs in history.

Coming up next, vowing to return to her country no matter who's in charge. The opposition leader of Venezuela, Maria Corina Machado, has collected the

Nobel Peace Prize in Oslo.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto and here are the international headlines we're watching today.

U.S. lawmakers grilled Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem on Capitol Hill today as part of a hearing on worldwide threats to the U.S. Noem and

other Trump officials defended the administration's policies, particularly its deportation policy. Officials testified on the consistent cyber-attacks

from nations such as China and Russia as well.

Heavy rain in the U.S. Northwest could be ending soon, but as many as a hundred thousand people in Washington State still face potential evacuation

as rivers hit severe flood stage. Officials also report dozens of road alerts and closures statewide due to water, like you're seeing there, and

debris. Floodwaters rushed through the streets of Sylvana, turning roads into rivers. Near Seattle, one person had to be pulled off the roof of

their car, another lifted from a tree.

The man best known in the U.S. as the My Pillow Guy says he's entered the race for governor of Minnesota. Mike Lindell is a fervent supporter of

President Donald Trump, one of the chief propagators of the lies that the 2020 election was stolen. He wants to win the Republican nomination there

to challenge the current Democratic governor, Tim Walz. Lindell says his experience of business will help him tackle addiction, homelessness and

fraud in government programs.

Tempers flared today in Washington and Caracas after U.S. authorities seized an oil tanker near Venezuela. Venezuela called it an act of

international piracy. The White House says the ship was carrying sanctioned Venezuelan crude oil and will travel now to a port in the U.S. There the

U.S. will take control of that oil. Here's how the press secretary defended the move.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: The Trump administration is executing on the president's sanction policies. We're not going to stand by and watch sanctioned vessels sail the

seas with black market oil, the proceeds of which will fuel narco-terrorism of rogue and illegitimate regimes around the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: The White House says President Trump is not worried about the ties between the leaders of Venezuela and Russia who spoke on the phone

earlier today. With me now, former NATO Supreme Allied Commander Admiral James Stavridis. Good to have you on, sir.

ADMIRAL JAMES STAVRIDIS, FORMER SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER, NATO: Great to see you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: So, I have a question. I mean, currently more than a fifth of the United States Navy is on and around the coast or off and around the coast

of Venezuela. Does the U.S. need this enormous show of military force to conduct what is in effect a Coast Guard drug interdiction seizure or oil

interdiction seizure?

STAVRIDIS: Absolutely not. You know that as well as I do. I mean, to put it in another context, this is the largest military buildup in the

Caribbean since the 1960s and the Cuban Missile Crisis. You don't need this to smack a few drug boats, however you feel about those particular

operations.

Here's a way to think about what's going on in the seizure of this Venezuelan oil under sanction. Tactically, first, you got to kind of

congratulate the Coast Guard. They did this extremely smoothly, very professionally. These aren't Navy SEALs. These are the guys who come and

rescue you when your speedboat runs out of gas on Memorial Day. The Coast Guard, look at them. I'm really proud of them. Operationally, this puts a

lot more pressure on Maduro.

To your point, Jim, this is all about ratcheting up the pressure, boiling the frog in the pot and hoping Maduro will jump out of the pot. Maybe he

will, we'll see.

Strategically, I'll tell you the two capitals that I'd be watching this the most closely. Moscow and Beijing. This is where a lot of Chinese oil comes

from.

[18:35:00]

And this is Moscow's current raison d'etre. The way they move oil is the Shadow Fleet. They ought to be very concerned because I'll close with this.

U.S. Coast Guard, they are worldwide deployable. We send them where they need to go.

SCIUTTO: Well, you mentioned the Russian Shadow Fleet. I spoke to Senator Sheldon Whitehouse yesterday and he asked the question, why hasn't the

Trump administration used that force to go after Russian -- excuse me, Russian tankers? I mean, is this more of a threat than the massive sale of

Russian oil to finance the war in Ukraine?

STAVRIDIS: I have written -- you and I have talked about it, Jim. This Russian Shadow Fleet is what is keeping Vladimir Putin, you'll permit the

pun, afloat with oil flowing. And I have said for a long time, I think a lot of observers have, this would be a pretty good modus operandi to apply

to Russians hauling oil all around the world.

And by the way, these tankers get underway. They're carrying like this one, a million, two million gallons of oil. They turn off their transponders.

They go dark. They're crummy old beat-up ships because nobody respectable would want to haul this oil. They're an ecological disaster waiting to

happen. And yes, we ought to be taking this model that you've just seen, I think successfully employed off the coast of Venezuela. Let's do it in the

Black Sea. Let's do it in the Baltic. Let's do it in the Persian Gulf.

SCIUTTO: Now, I wonder if you were watching this and you're Maduro, President Trump has been threatening, threatening military action directly

against Venezuela, including on the ground, operations on the ground. He said multiple times, yes, you know, could happen any day. Hasn't happened.

Would you read this as something of a sort of a step short of military action with a U.S. president hesitant to order it and say, well, I could do

this if I'm not going to do that?

STAVRIDIS: In the military, we always think about, and you know, this vertical escalation in the ladder of conflict. So, here we are. We're doing

a lot of counter narcotics operations against very small boats. Now, we've stepped it up. We're going after two million barrels of your oil floating

around in a tanker that, frankly, you direct.

What's next on that vertical ladder of escalation? Jim, I think it is strikes ashore. So, I would say that the Trump administration is signaling

Maduro, look, we're serious. We're not just going to schwack a bunch of small drug boats, we can take your tankers out. What's the next step? We

can come after your military ashore. Maduro, we can come after you. I hope Maduro is listening so we can avoid further violence.

I think, again, he's a frog in a pot. The temperature is getting hotter and hotter. I think in the end, he jumps out.

SCIUTTO: So, I mean, it's a question, right? Because that's the essential offer, if you want to call it that, from the U.S. to Maduro. And that seems

to be the substance of the conversation that Trump had with Maduro when they spoke on the phone. But as you know, that's an offer that the U.S. has

made in the past to, you know, Saddam Hussein and others. And they ultimately decided, to their own detriment, right, that that's not a great

that's not a great plan B for me.

I mean, do you do you believe, given your long experience following conflicts such as this one, that that is a genuine possibility? He just

pieces out?

STAVRIDIS: If I were advising Maduro, and I assure you, I am not. But if I were advising Maduro, I'd say, take a look at what happened in Noriega in

Panama. Take a look at what happened to Saddam Hussein, your example. When a U.S. president determines, ultimately, we're going to apply the full

measure of U.S. power doesn't turn out well for the dictator, typically.

And reportedly, and who knows if this is accurate or not, what Maduro wants is about 100 of his senior people himself, control of 10s of billions of

dollars in assets, a nice hacienda outside of Havana. That's kind of the deal that another dictator, Bashar al-Assad ended up taking out of Syria. I

think in the end, this is really a negotiation, not a question about how it ends.

SCIUTTO: Admiral Stavridis, always good to have you on. Thank you.

STAVRIDIS: Thanks, Jim.

[18:40:00]

SCIUTTO: Well, the winner of this year's Nobel Peace Prize is hailing President Trump for decisive action on Venezuela. Maria Corina Machado, who

has been in hiding since last year, says the U.S. helped get her from Venezuela, in hiding, to Oslo to receive that award. She's promising to

return to her country, though, one day with that Nobel Peace Prize. Isa Soares has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ISA SOARES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Under the cover of darkness in Oslo, a moment many thought wouldn't happen. Maria Corina Machado,

Venezuela's most prominent opposition leader stepping onto a hotel balcony waving to supporters and ending months in hiding.

Below her, crowds surged forward chanting brave and freedom in Spanish. Hand on her chest, Machado joined them in singing Venezuela's national

anthem before heading down to meet them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): After all these months in which she's been in hiding and her life's been in danger I think seeing her

together with the entire Venezuelan diaspora is a pleasure and a reassurance that she's safe, and it's also a way for the Venezuelan cause

to stay alive and a way to put more pressure on the regime so that there can be a transition in Venezuela.

SOARES (voice-over): Hours earlier, her daughter accepted this year's Nobel Peace Prize on her behalf. The Nobel Committee said Machado had done

everything in her power to attend but warned her journey carried extreme danger.

MARIA CORINA MACHADO, VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION LEADER: Certainly, the regime would have done everything to prevent me from coming. They did not know

where I was in hiding in Venezuela so it was hard for them to stop me. It was rude, nonetheless. And yes, we did get support from the United States

government.

SOARES (voice-over): Machado went into hiding after last year's disputed election when President Nicolas Maduro's government cracked down on

dissent. Officials banned her from travelling abroad and said she would be treated as a fugitive if she ever tried to leave the country.

Hours before the opposition leaders arrived on Oslo the United States dramatically seized a sanctioned oil tanker off Venezuela's coast.

Washington said the skipper had been involved in illicit trade with Iran and sanctioned the ship in 2022. Maduro swiftly responded to the incident

calling it an act of international piracy.

In Oslo, Machado vowed the Venezuela would soon be democratic and free as she has spent decades pushing for what she calls ballots over bullets.

MACHADO: It is very dangerous to leave when you are being looked for and persecuted and accused as I have been, as thousands of other Venezuelans

right now. But it's certainly worthwhile because I think that this is a moment that has -- is a turning point in our history. Venezuelan people are

feeling right now that the world is behind us and that we are not alone. And it's a decisive moment, certainly.

SOARES (voice-over): Now, in Oslo, the Nobel Peace Prize has thrust the Venezuelan opposition movement back into the spotlight.

Isa Soares, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Still to come tonight, Ukraine has delivered a revised peace proposal back to the U.S. There are a lot of proposals going around and

some of the points, well, they're interesting. We speak to a top lawmaker about the big issues on the table.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:45:00]

SCIUTTO: European leaders are this weekend set to finalize a peace proposal for Ukraine. This after Kyiv submitted its own updated plan back

to the U.S. You may remember that original 28-point proposal widely criticized as favorable to Russia. Well, those points have now been reduced

to 20. Diplomats say that among those points we're learning it calls for security guarantees for Ukraine in line or similar to NATO's Article 5,

which means mutual defense among NATO allies.

It proposes E.U. membership for Ukraine by 2027, new elections in Ukraine, and, and this is notable, formal U.S. recognition of some Russian-occupied

territory. Just moments ago, President Trump spoke about the prospects for agreement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I thought that we were very close with Russia to having a deal. I thought we were very close with Ukraine to

having a deal. In fact, other than President Zelenskyy, his people love the concept of the deal. You know, we threw something out --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a four-part deal, isn't it?

TRUMP: Well, there's four or five different parts. It's, you know, a little bit complicated because you're cutting up land in a certain way.

It's not the easiest thing. It's sort of like a complex real estate deal times a thousand, right?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well, it's a country's sovereignty at stake. To get more from Ukraine itself, joining me is Alexander Merezhko, chair of the Foreign

Affairs Committee in the Ukrainian parliament. Thanks so much. Good to have you back.

ALEXANDER MEREZHKO, CHAIR, FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT: Thank you for inviting me.

SCIUTTO: So, first of all, I want to run through some of the points in the proposal as my colleagues and I at CNN understand what's in there. For one,

it has a security guarantee, which President Trump said a short time ago that the U.S. would help with. To your knowledge, does that security

guarantee meet Ukraine's understanding and needs to feel secure from any future Russian invasions?

MEREZHKO: Well, I haven't seen yet the official text of this proposal, peace proposal. I have seen only what was published in the press, including

Ukrainian press, of course. But from my perspective, at least, there is only one realistic and reliable security guarantee. It's NATO membership

for Ukraine.

As for Article 5-like kind of security guarantee, to me, it doesn't make much sense for a very simple reason, because Article 5 cannot work

separately from NATO itself. And for this reason, I don't see any reliable security guarantees provided in this document.

SCIUTTO: The -- one of the points, as we understand it and reported last night, is that Ukraine would join the E.U. by early 2027. One, do you think

that's realistic? And two, would that, in your view, provide some protection for Ukraine by being an E.U. member?

MEREZHKO: Well, first of all, of course, it remains our strategic goal, which is enshrined in our constitution to join not only NATO, but also the

European Union. And I view it as a security, sort of security guarantee, because within the European Union, we have solidarity between the

countries.

But at the same time, yes, it's a very ambitious and very important goal to join -- Ukraine to join in the year 2027. But I'm not sure whether it's

realistic enough for a very simple reason, because it's a decision taken by the European Union itself, taken by its member states.

[18:50:00]

And we haven't started yet official negotiations with the European Union to join. So, this decision doesn't depend on the United States. It doesn't

depend on the will of the American president. It depends on the European Union, and it might take, unfortunately, longer than just a few years.

However, I would like to emphasize for us, this date, 2027, looks -- well, it's very important and hopefully we can do our best to join as soon as

possible the European Union.

SCIUTTO: Another point in here, which is particularly controversial, is the possibility of the U.S. officially recognizing some of the territory

occupied, Ukrainian territory occupied by Russia by force. Would that be acceptable in your view?

MEREZHKO: Of course, it's absolutely unacceptable for Ukraine, and I hope, I'm even convinced that it will never happen, because it will go not only

against American national interest, but it will go against international law, and it will be against American law, American legislation. That's why

if it happens, it can be challenged within the United States before American court.

SCIUTTO: Fair point. OK. You heard President Trump there in his comments say everybody loves the deal except Zelenskyy and his people, and more and

more President Trump has been zeroing in on Zelenskyy with criticism similar to what we heard in the Oval Office back in February, right? You

have no cards, it's time to make a deal, et cetera. And in this agreement, Ukraine would agree to hold new elections. Do you think President Trump is

trying to force Zelenskyy out of power?

MEREZHKO: Unfortunately, from my perspective, the whole idea about holding elections in Ukraine in violation of our legislation, which means that we

can hold elections only after lifting the martial law, the whole idea belongs to Russia.

And I'm afraid that our American friends are manipulated, are used by Russia with only one goal in mind, which is to destabilize Ukraine from

within. Because Putin, he would like to remove President Zelenskyy. He's afraid of President Zelenskyy. And unfortunately, in this situation, he

might be using even American president.

The second reason why this idea is absolutely unacceptable is that it might be an attempt by Putin to legitimize, in a way, territorial gains made by

Russia and occupied territories. So, it's absolutely impossible under the circumstances.

SCIUTTO: Alexander Merezhko, Ukrainian parliament. Thanks so much for joining.

MEREZHKO: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: And we will have more news just after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:55:00]

SCIUTTO: About camera in Hayward, California. Capture the moment. A gas explosion flattened the structure just across the street. The scene close

up shows the extent of the damage. Fire officials say six people were taken to hospital for treatment. The person who recorded the footage said it was

like watching a war movie.

And before I leave you, the U.S. Powerball jackpot has now risen to, well, a ridiculous $1 billion after nobody won the grand prize in Wednesday

night's drawing. It has steadily been growing since September, when two winning tickets split the last jackpot, almost $1.8 billion, which was the

second largest, just the second largest in Powerball history. The next drawing will be held on Saturday.

Thanks so much for joining us today. I'm Jim Sciuto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay with CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:00:00]

END