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The Brief with Jim Sciutto
CNN International: Australian PM: Bondi Beach Attack Apparently Inspired by ISIS; Mourners Lay Flowers and Pay Tribute at Bondi Beach; Video Follow-Up Strike on Alleged Drug Boat Will Not be Released to Public; Providence Police Release New Enhanced Video and Images of Suspect; Nick Reiner to be Charged with First Degree Murder; Jimmy Lai Faces Possible Life Sentences. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired December 16, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR, "THE BRIEF": Hello, and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, and
you're watching "The Brief."
Just ahead this hour, Australia's prime minister says the gunmen accused of carrying out the deadly shooting on Bondi Beach were, they believe,
inspired by ISIS. The son of Hollywood director Rob Reiner is facing first- degree murder charges now after his parents were found dead. And the daughter of media tycoon Jimmy Lai tells me the family is grieving after
his conviction in Hong Kong on national security charges.
We begin with the investigation into the massacre at Sydney's famed Bondi Beach. Australian authorities say now that the attack appears to have been
inspired by ISIS. They say improvised explosive devices and homemade ISIS flags were found in the vehicle registered to 24-year-old suspect Naveed
Akram. Police believe he launched the deadly rampage alongside his father, 50-year-old Sajid. Sajid was killed in a shootout with police. Naveed is
now recovering from his injuries, will face serious charges.
This, as the investigation is now spread to the Philippines. That is where the pair are suspected to have undergone military-style training just last
month, this according to Australian media. Philippine authorities say they listed their final destination as Davao on the southern island of Mindanao,
a region that has been plagued by Islamist extremists and insurgencies.
On Sunday, 15 people were killed, dozens more wounded when the two gunmen opened fire on families celebrating the Jewish festival of Hanukkah.
Joining me now from Sydney is Will Ripley. And we just showed those pictures there of that group of people on the beach there in a moment of
silence in tribute to the victims. The investigation now shows that this appears to be an international plot to some degree. What are we learning,
Will?
WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there's a lot of pieces that investigators are still trying to put together, Jim. You've
laid out some of it, and I'm going to bring you more of it in a moment.
But I just want to set the scene of where I am right now. This is the Shabbat of Bondi. This is where the funerals are going to be held very
shortly from now for two of the rabbis, the two rabbis who were killed in the attack on Sunday. They're expecting very large crowds out here. There's
been extensive security.
This entire road is blocked off. We had to have all of our equipment and bags checked, multiple layers of security to make sure that these events
are safe, because obviously, given the amount of hate aimed at this community, not only during this attack, but also in the preceding years,
they say, with anti-Semitism on the rise in Australia, they're very concerned about more violence.
At the same time, there are 22 people remaining hospitalized, nine of them in critical condition. But when it comes to this investigation, they are
still now trying to figure out how large this operation was to radicalize these two men, this father and son.
The father came from India. He moved here to Australia in 1988. He was a licensed gun owner, not a citizen of Australia, but believed to be an
upstanding resident of this country, not on any watch list, even though his son was questioned by government investigators back in 2019.
And we have some startling new video that is emerging of the very initial seconds, perhaps, of this attack. And you can see the father, and he was
actually confronted by two members of the Jewish community here who tried to stop the bloodshed. But ultimately, those efforts failed. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RIPLEY (voice-over): New dash cam video reveals the first minutes of the Bondi Beach massacre and two bystanders bravely trying to stop the attack.
A husband and wife confront the older gunman, the father, Sajid Akram, leaving his car, rifle in hand. Watch closely. The man in the purple shirt
drags the attacker to the ground, wrestles for control, rips the gun out of his hands, swinging it almost like a bat. The gunman takes another rifle
from his car, opening fire on the man and woman. Australian media is identifying them as possibly the first two victims of Sunday's attack.
[18:05:00]
The video also reveals a crucial piece of evidence. Look at the windshield. You see that black flag bearing what appears to be the logo of the Islamic
State.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: It would appear that there is evidence that this was inspired by a terrorist organization, by ISIS.
RIPLEY (voice-over): Investigators are now looking beyond Australia. Police say the shooters recently traveled to the southern Philippines, a
region long plagued by ISIS-inspired violence. Philippine officials say the pair arrived on November 1st for military-style training, leaving nearly
four weeks later. Returning to Australia just over two weeks before opening fire on Bondi Beach.
RIPLEY: More than 24 hours after the shooting, Bondi Beach remained an active crime scene. You have police tape blocking off the whole area.
There's this outdoor cinema where people basically dropped their stuff and ran. The whole area kind of feels eerily frozen in time.
NAVEED AKRAM: This will come for you on the day of judgment.
RIPLEY (voice-over): Video is also emerging of the younger gunman, the son, Naveed Akram.
AKRAM: Allah will reward you for whatever actions you do in his cause. Inshallah this will save you on the day of judgment.
RIPLEY (voice-over): A Sydney-based Islamic street preaching group confirms Akram appeared in a handful of videos in 2019, handing out
pamphlets during public outreach. The group says Akram was just 17 at the time. They insist they've had no contact with him since. In a statement,
the group says it's horrified by the attack and appalled by the actions of both father and son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're allowed to have strong views, but to go into that, well, it's just wrong.
RIPLEY (voice-over): Lockheed (ph) told CNN affiliate 9 News he's a former co-worker of the younger shooter he calls Nav. He says Nav quit his
bricklaying job about a month ago and often talked about his love of hunting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looked like he could handle a gun. Yes, yes, well, he had. We used to talk about going shooting down at Crookwell, and he'd
say that -- he actually said to me once, I said, oh, we should go for a shot down there one day. One day he goes, oh, I don't know if that'd be
good for you. And I said, well, OK, that's a bit weird. But he's a bit of a weird cat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RIPLEY (on camera): That surviving suspect is believed to be awake from a coma, still remaining in hospital, still waiting to be formally charged.
But, Jim, just take a moment here. The hearse has just arrived with the bodies of one of the rabbis. (INAUDIBLE) a moment to take this in.
Everyone is silent here. They're going to be heading inside in a few minutes, and we'll be bringing you more coverage from this first of 15
funerals being held here. People very emotional, very heavy. You can just feel the sorrow in the air here, Jim.
SCIUTTO: No question. And as you say, that they're just one of the 15 victims of this awful attack. Will Ripley in Sydney. The funeral's just
beginning.
Well, the U.S. defense secretary says there are no plans to release the full video of the military strike on alleged drug boat on September 2nd to
the public. This is the subject of that double tap strike that has caused so much concern. Pete Hegseth and U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio
briefed lawmakers on Capitol Hill today, but did not show them the unedited version of that video of the second strike.
The Trump administration publicly released a clip of the initial strike, but not the follow up strike, which members of Congress have seen behind
closed doors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: This has been a highly successful mission that's ongoing and continued, and we're pleased to be here today to
update Congress on how that's developing and how that's moving forward. As I said, I believe it's our 22nd, 23rd such engagement, certainly been at
least a fourth or fifth that I've been involved in, and those will remain and be ongoing.
PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: In keeping with longstanding Department of War policy, Department of Defense policy, of course, we're
not going to release a top secret full unedited video of that to the general public. Haskin-Saskin appropriate committees will see it, but not
the general public.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The briefing follows new U.S. strikes against three, there's one of them, alleged drug trafficking boats. These in the Eastern Pacific
defense officials say eight people were killed in these strikes.
Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy is on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, and he joins me now. Thanks so much for taking the time.
REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL), MEMBER, U.S. HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: Thank you so much for having me.
[18:10:00]
SCIUTTO: You were in the briefing today. Can you help me understand how Rubio and Hegseth explain why this administration quite publicly releases
many videos of the initial strikes, but not, and only, the only exception is the video of the second strike that has caused and raised so many
questions about the legality. Did they explain that seeming contradiction?
KRISHNAMOORTHI: No, and I think that this is, you know, one of those areas where they have a lot of explaining to do, and we should be able to see the
video. The American people need to see how lethal force bordering on a war crime potentially is being done in their name.
And I have to say that their explanation or their justification for not releasing it, namely that they don't want to release, you know, information
leading to sources or methods, seems to contradict the release of all the other videos that they've done. And so, I think that it's time to release
that video so the American people know exactly what's happening, and there can be some accountability for what's being done in their name.
SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, because the fundamental question about that second strike raised by, as you know, Democrats and Republicans, was
striking that boat with deadly force when there were survivors in the water, seemingly, and I haven't seen the video, but by some accounts,
simply attempting to survive, was that legal? Did you hear anything in the briefing that gave you any further clarity as to how the administration
defends that legally?
KRISHNAMOORTHI: No. And I think that the problem that we have here is that the law of war manual, which is basically the set of rules and regulations
that govern how the U.S. Navy or other U.S. military conduct themselves, says that if you have the opportunity, you should actually try to rescue
the survivors of the shipwreck.
Instead, what happened here is the opposite. And these survivors were eliminated, were killed. And so, it raises deep questions about whether a
war crime was committed. Now, the reason why we have these is not just because we're nice people, but because, you know, God forbid, Americans are
in the water. You don't want them to be treated in a way that would suggest that they would be murdered.
And remember, in World War II, this was kind of a common practice of the Nazis and the Japanese. We can't stoop to that level. That's not who we are
as Americans. And so, that's why we need to have accountability from an administration which really seeks to act almost with impunity at this
point.
SCIUTTO: Yes. I mean, listen, you look at World War II movies, and the bad guys in those movies in American films shoot at survivors in the water. As
you know, Susie Wiles, the president's chief of staff, in her quite candid interview with Vanity Fair, she raised questions about the intent of
military action around Venezuela and suggested Trump was actually pursuing regime change in Venezuela via these attacks on boats as opposed to drug
interdiction. Would that be a legal use of such military force to try to pressure the Maduro regime to leave office?
KRISHNAMOORTHI: I don't think so. It starts to sound more like a war. And remember, the president should act in an emergency to protect the best
interests of America, and he or she should be able to use the force necessary to protect America. And that is perfectly acceptable.
However, in a situation such as this, where it appears that we are laying the groundwork for a war against Venezuela, you need to come to Congress.
You need to get the consent of the American people. And that's where the War Powers Act came from.
Remember, after Vietnam, after all the secret wars, the American people said, this is our prerogative to declare war. You must come to us. We will
then deliberate through our representatives, and then you can request an authorization for the use of military force. And if it's granted, then you
can take such action as necessary, flowing from that AUMF, just as we did in the past. But that's not what's happening here.
SCIUTTO: Senators from both parties said they left the briefing without a clear sense of exactly what the administration's goal is with these
strikes. Did Rubio or Hegseth attempt to give any further explanation of the ultimate objective here?
[18:15:00]
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Look, I can't get into the classified details, but the gist of their justification is going after narco-terrorists, being in an
armed conflict with narco-terrorists. But the problem is, it seems to fly in the face of what the president did just the other day in pardoning a
narco-terrorist, namely the former president of Honduras, who has caused untold harm and who was convicted in an American court of law for narco-
terrorism.
So, what is it? Why are we there? I have no -- I don't understand exactly why we're doing what we're doing. Dozens of people have been killed at this
point. There have been dozens of boat strikes. And, you know, if we're moving toward a war, come to Congress right now, because people are on both
sides are very concerned.
SCIUTTO: The trouble is, though, Congress isn't doing anything about it right now. I mean, of course, granted, the Senate and the House are
controlled by Republicans. But if you're saying that Republicans and many Democrats have reservations, particularly about war powers, et cetera,
where is the action?
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, War Powers Act resolutions have been introduced. I think people should now basically jump on board, especially on my
colleagues on the other side, because, look, at the end of the day, President Trump -- even Rand Paul said this in the Senate the other day.
President Trump was somehow hired to prevent endless wars. That's what he campaigned on. But now we're about to, it appears, embark on another war in
Venezuela in the name of the American people. And the American people, I can tell you, don't want that. Certainly, Illinoisans and my constituents
don't want that. But we need to speak up and we need to do so with one voice.
SCIUTTO: Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi, thanks so much for coming back on the show.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Thank you so much, sir.
SCIUTTO: Well, the manhunt for the Brown University shooter is growing in urgency tonight as authorities release more information, more images as
well, in hopes of capturing the suspect who killed two students and injured nine others in the weekend attack.
Providence Police released enhanced zoomed in surveillance video, which they say shows the masked person of interest casing the residential
neighborhood hours before the shooting on Saturday. This is how the FBI describes the suspect. Five foot eight, stocky build, who walks with a
distinctive gait. Officials are now asking that the public take a look at these images and share them widely.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLONEL OSCAR PEREZ, PROVIDENCE POLICE CHIEF: You want to focus on the body movements, the way the person moved their arms, the body posture. It
all comes from the residential walk of Waterman Avenue. Power eyes in Hope Street. It is those residential areas that we're asking the public to look.
If you have any camera systems or any Tesla's, like I mentioned, that you look at that footage and that you can reach out to us and --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The chief says the police have already received nearly 200 tips, which they're now investigating. This as the manhunt stretches into a
fourth day and the community understandably anxious.
Joining us now from Providence, CNN Correspondent Brian Todd. You know, consistent question for the police. Brian, we heard that again in the press
conference this afternoon is you're saying on the one hand, you've got to find this guy and understandably they do, but at the same time that there's
no credible specific threat of another attack. Did the police provide further explanation of that seeming contradiction?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They really did not, Jim. They said that, again, there is no credible threat that since the shooting on Saturday,
they've received no credible threat to the city. But they -- we repeatedly pressed them in this news conference and we have pressed them since the
shooting. Do you know if he's in the state? Do you know if he's in the area? All we're told is we're investigating that.
I just pressed Chief Oscar Perez again, do you have any name that you're looking at, even a name that you're not telling us, a name that you're
keeping to yourselves that you're looking at? The answer to that, no. They don't have a name. They have no -- they seemingly don't know where this
person is. So, is that a cold trail? We don't know that really yet.
As far as this video, there was also some extraordinary new information in this news conference, Jim, and also what the chief told me personally after
the news conference.
[18:20:00]
In this video that you just referenced and you may have just played, the chief, Oscar Perez, said that from that video and other indications that
they've had, this person of interest was in that neighborhood for about five and a half hours before the shooting, the entire time. They said he
was there from about 10:30 in the morning until the time of the shooting and then a little bit after that. I then later on asked Chief Perez, what
do you believe he was doing there? Chief Perez said, we think he was casing it out. That's what criminals do.
Later on, after the news conference, I spoke to the chief personally. I said, did he leave and come back? You know, he was there at 10:30. Did he
leave and come back? And the chief told me, no, we believe he was there the entire time, casing out this place. I then asked, do you believe -- given
that, do you believe that he was a local person or maybe he was not local and he needed to case it out? The chief said, we're investigating that.
But, Jim, this is really the headline of that news conference and the information we just got. This person who they're still calling a person of
interest and not a suspect was there for five and a half hours minimum casing out this place.
SCIUTTO: Question for you, Brian, all this video is prior to the shooting, have the police shared much video post-shooting that then gave them an
indication as to which direction he went afterwards?
TODD: They have not shared that, Jim. They have told us that their indications from what they've seen and pieced together, and I don't believe
this is video that they've released to the public, that they, quote, "lost sight" of him around Governor Street not long after the shooting. I'm going
to have to look at a map and figure out where Governor Street is in relation to the shooting. It can't be far away, clearly, but they did lose
sight of him a short time after the shooting.
There is one piece of video, Jim, which shows him walking by a police cruiser that's pulling up with its lights flashing, seemingly responding to
the shooting. So, we have seen that piece of video.
SCIUTTO: Wow, remarkable, gosh. Brian Todd in Providence, thanks so much. Well, still ahead, a long-delayed jobs number report shows the U.S. economy
is losing momentum. We're going to have the very latest, what it all means, right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. In today's Business Breakout, a mixed day on Wall Street. Tech snapped a three-session losing streak, but blue chips fell
after the release of data delayed by the U.S. government shutdown.
[18:25:00]
Jobs report shows the U.S. economy added 64,000 jobs last month, but lost more than 100,000 jobs in October. That's a net loss in those two months.
The unemployment rate rose to 4.6 percent in November. That is a four-year high.
To make matters worse, wage gains have stalled and are barely outpacing stubbornly high inflation. One economist says the U.S. economy is now in a
hiring recession. Noting that it has added hardly any new jobs on average since April.
Vice President J.D. Vance, however, says the problems go back further. He blamed the Biden administration for America's economic ills.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: If you look at every single affordability crisis that we talk about in the United States of America today, it's
because we inherited a nightmare of an economy from Joe Biden.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What grade would you give the economy today?
VANCE: A plus, plus, plus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Tell that to the American people. All this as millions of Americans face a sizable jump in their health care premiums for the coming
year. U.S. House Speaker Mike Johnson today blocked a vote on a measure that would have extended tax credits for people covered under the
Affordable Care Act.
Joining me now, Natasha Sarin, president of the Yale Budget Lab, professor of law and finance at the Yale Law School. Natasha, nice to have you.
Thanks so much for joining.
NATASHA SARIN, PRESIDENT, YALE BUDGET LAB AND PROFESSOR OF LAW AND FINANCE, YALE LAW SCHOOL: Thanks so much for having me.
SCIUTTO: I mean, these jobs numbers are not good when you not just for the last two months, but when you look at the graph over the course, we could
put this up on the screen over the course of the last year and going back a number of months. Do you agree with the assessment that this is America in
a hiring recession?
SARIN: I think what you're starting to see in the labor market and you've seen for the last many months is we are in this sort of no hire, no fire
type of market where unemployment is ticked up, it's up to the highest point that it's been, as you were pointing out, over the course of the last
four years. You're also in a situation where essentially outside of health care and education, there has not been job growth over the course of the
last many months.
And in some sense, it's actually not that surprising work that my colleagues and I have done at the Budget Lab at Yale, that's been tracking
a bunch of the administration's economic policies, including these tariffs, points out that tariff levels at the highest rate that you've seen in the
last century lead to a smaller economy and cost hundreds of thousands of jobs. And I think that's what you're starting to see, along with the host
of actions relating to DOGE and the federal government firings, which are showing up in the October data as well.
SCIUTTO: Yes. And we've heard from a lot of business owners, both small and big, that tariff uncertainty has led them to push off decisions because
they're not quite sure where they'll stand in a few weeks or a few months' time. I noticed The Wall Street Journal recently published a story saying
that even these anemic job numbers might overstate job growth and that the nation might actually be losing jobs consistently month to month. Do you
see any evidence of that?
SARIN: Yes. And you saw Chair Powell's gesture at that as well last week. The sort of concern is that we've had delayed government data because of
the shutdown and real concerns about being able to have access in real time to this picture of what we're seeing in the labor market. Another concern
that we've known over the course of the last many years is that government data tends to have a harder time capturing business openings and closures.
And so, if you're not being able to capture the fact that small businesses might be closing as a result of these types of tariff pressures, then
you're going to overstate employment such that you're painting a rosier picture that is then ultimately revised downward over the course of the
next many months when we get better data. So, I think that actually is a real concern.
And I think this uncertainty you're pointing out is a real concern as well. The effective tariff rate has changed more than 60 times since President
Trump took office in January. And that's just an impossible situation for businesses to plan for, for the American consumer to plan for as they think
about, you know, what Christmas presents they can buy their kids this year.
SCIUTTO: No question. Question for you again. I'm not the economist. You know this better than me. Inflation stubborn. Yet the Fed has been lowering
interest rates and typically remember from my econ classes that that if you loosen money in the midst of an inflationary environment that that might
actually make inflation worse. And I wonder, are you seeing that in your data?
SARIN: The Fed has this like really difficult task and frankly, has had a really difficult task over the course of the last many years. Because as
you know, as a result of the pandemic in the post-pandemic period, we saw a really substantial uptick in inflation for the first time in decades in
this country. And the Fed has been kind of trying to pull inflation back to its 2 percent inflation target for months and months, even before President
Trump took office.
[18:30:00]
And they were making real progress on working that way. But then what happened is you saw the president come into office and ignite the most
inflationary policies in our lifetimes with these tariffs.
So, as they were starting to make progress towards the last mile, they then got a massive boost in inflation. And they're also having this cooling
labor market where it's hard to find jobs and you're starting to see stilted labor growth. And those things push in opposite directions, and
that's why you've seen so much division at the Fed.
Should they be cutting interest rates? Should they be lowering interest rates? Should they be holding steady? It's a little bit hard to tell from
their perspective based on all the indicators they're watching.
SCIUTTO: Yes, and then that dreaded word stagflation you keep hearing about as well, at least the prospect. Natasha Sarin, Yale Budget Lab,
thanks so much for joining.
SARIN: Thanks so much for having me.
SCIUTTO: Still to come on "The Brief," the son of Rob and Michele Reiner is now facing two counts of first-degree murder. We're going to have a live
report on this just heartbreaking story from Los Angeles coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto. And here are the international headlines we're watching today. The investigation into the
Bondi Beach massacre in Australia is now stretching all the way to another continent. Police say the suspected gunman had recently traveled to the
southern Philippines, that in a region plagued by Islamist insurgencies. Authorities believe they may have undergone military style training there.
They say Sunday's attack in Sydney was apparently inspired by ISIS.
There was now a new image of a person of interest in the deadly shooting at Brown University. Police in Rhode Island released this photo in hopes of
identifying the person, you see there, wearing what appears to be a face mask. Two students were killed in Saturday's attack, nine others injured.
The search for a suspect is now in its fourth day.
[18:35:00]
The White House chief of staff reportedly says U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi has mishandled the Jeffrey Epstein case. Susie Wiles also told Vanity
Fair in a wide-ranging interview that Vice President J.D. Vance has long believed in conspiracy theories. Wiles is calling the profile a
disingenuously framed hit piece. However, there are recordings of her answers.
Now, to murder charges filed against Nick Reiner, the son of the legendary film director Rob Reiner and his wife Michele. They were found dead on
Sunday. Just a short time ago, the L.A. district attorney announced that Nick Reiner will face two counts of first-degree murder. Reiner now being
held without bail. Attorney Alan Jackson, who has taken a number of famous clients, says he will now represent Nick Reiner, adding that his client had
not been medically cleared to be transported to the courthouse earlier.
Josh Campbell is standing by in L.A. at the Hall of Justice. Josh, this is just an awful story to report on and cover. Tell us what we're learning
about Nick Reiner prior to this. Our understanding is he was living in his parents' guest house?
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's right, living in the guest house. And we know based on interviews that he had previously given
that he had struggled with addiction issues. Authorities are working to determine whether that may have been at play here.
We do know based on a CNN source that the night before the bodies of Rob and Michele Reiner were found, the family was at a holiday party hosted by
television host Conan O'Brien, and witnesses described the son fighting, arguing with the father. So, that was, you know, something that was of
interest there, because there is a question about what actually transpired in the moments up to this alleged murder.
We did get some additional gruesome details from prosecutors, and that is that the murder weapon in this case was a knife that was used to conduct
what they're calling stabbings that resulted in the death of the couple. Now, authorities haven't said if they've recovered the murder weapon or any
other type of evidence. I asked the prosecutors if Nick Reiner had given any type of confession. They said they're not prepared to talk about that
right now. That will come whenever the case actually continues to trial.
Now, as you mentioned there, we're waiting for him to be brought in front of a judge here in Los Angeles, and that's because, as you said, his
attorney mentioned that he's not medically cleared. We don't know if that means he was injured during the course of the arrest by the Los Angeles
Police Department, or if, again, this comes back to some type of mental health issue that he's dealing with. But we expect charges to be filed
shortly, and again, he'll be presented into court, as you mentioned, being held on no bond.
SCIUTTO: Josh Campbell, thanks so much for staying on top of it.
CAMPBELL: You bet.
SCIUTTO: Just ahead, Hong Kong democracy activist Jimmy Lai now faces years, possibly life, in prison following his conviction. Coming up, my
conversation with his daughter, Claire Lai, and a member of his legal team. You'll want to hear this. It's right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:40:00]
SCIUTTO: Former Hong Kong media mogul and activist Jimmy Lai was convicted this week in his national security trial. One of Beijing's most high-
profile critics, he was charged under the sweeping security law imposed on the semi-autonomous city five years ago following a massive wave of pro-
democracy protests in Hong Kong.
Lai ran the newspaper Apple Daily until it was forced to close in 2021. The 78-year-old now faces a possible life sentence. I spoke to Jimmy Lai's
daughter Claire and his lawyer, Jonathan Price.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CLAIRE LAI, DAUGHTER OF JIMMY LAI: The national security law is extremely vague and extremely draconian and arbitrary. And it's -- it has an
extremely high conviction rate. So, that is what we expected. And as much as we expected it, I mean, we're still grieving.
But, you know, if -- and one thing that our father has taught us is that we should face any adversity and any sort of difficulty with a certain amount
of cheer and a certain amount of spirit. So, that's what we try to do.
SCIUTTO: I know that you grew up studying law and even admiring Hong Kong's legal system. What has it been like to watch it change over time
under increasing pressure from Beijing?
LAI: It's been extremely heartbreaking watching -- actually, a lot of my father's cases have been at the forefront of the rule of law breaking down.
Hong Kong is a place -- you know, we don't -- we never had structural democracy. So, you know, it made the protection of certain fundamental
rights all the more important.
And in really a judgment -- in a case that is about so many different rights and one of free press and despite the national security law saying
that it protects those rights, there was no engagement with it in the 850 pages of the judgment. So, that is disappointing to say the least.
SCIUTTO: Well, Jonathan, this was a trial heard by three judges handpicked to hear this case under the national security law, no jury. In your
experience, did this represent in any way a fair trial for Jimmy Lai?
JONATHAN PRICE, LAWYER OF JIMMY LAI: No. I mean, this is the culmination of a performative process that's been going on for five years since Jimmy
Lai was arrested in August 2020. For five years in which he's been in prison, mostly in solitary confinement, a trial process that started in
December 2023, in relation to this national security law trial, took two years, 156 days of sitting time in court, 52 days of that Jimmy Lai himself
was giving evidence, and the product of which is this extraordinary 855- page judgment, which says virtually nothing.
The legal reasoning is scarce, to say the least, if not nonexistent. It doesn't engage with key human rights or rule of law principles at all. It
simply trots out the evidence that was put before the court by the prosecution and comes to a predetermined conclusion that he's guilty on all
charges.
SCIUTTO: Claire, I know you and I know your brother have long been concerned about your father's health during his confinement for all these
days. You've said he's shrinking to nothing. Tell us how he is right now.
LAI: He was strong and robust. And, you know, now, he's lost a dramatic amount of weight. I mean, in the last less than year, he's lost more than
10 kilos, and that's after having lost a lot in the last -- in the previous four years. And, you know, he's diabetic. He now has heart issues. He has
high blood pressure. I mean, he has a failing eyesight. His hearing is failing. He has waist and back pains. He has nails that are turning colors
and falling off and rotting teeth.
[18:45:00]
I mean, he has just such a myriad of health issues that are just extremely worrying and are just immediately visible to people who see him.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Jonathan, I hate to ask this question, but China has already held him for hundreds of days. Now, he's been convicted of charges that
could potentially carry a life sentence. Is it your view that it's the Chinese government's intention for him to die in prison?
PRICE: The range of sentences is a minimum of 10 years for offenses of the gravity for which he's been convicted, but precedent suggests he'll get at
least 15 or 20. The maximum is life in prison, and they could impose that. He was 78 last week. So, any one of those sentences amounts in effect to a
life sentence, and we'll see him die behind bars.
However, we see strong political will on all sides to have him released. As I've said, it does no benefit to China to see him die in prison. In fact,
it's only upside for them if they can get him on a plane and fly him out of Hong Kong. Everyone agrees that Xi and Starmer and Trump need to get
together and find a way of getting Jimmy Lai out of Hong Kong and back to his family in London.
SCIUTTO: Claire, I have to understand that hearing Jonathan describe the potential dangers here has to be just so difficult for you. President Trump
has said that he would ask President Xi to discuss Jimmy Lai's case, your father's case with the Chinese president. Does that give you hope that that
could lead to his release?
LAI: Absolutely. I mean, this is a case -- I mean, after sitting through almost every single day of the trial, it was very clear that this was not
going to be solved in, you know, the once promising but now highly compromised Hong Kong legal system.
Just, I think, around a month ago, over 30 senators signed a letter to President Trump asking him to raise my father in his talks with President
Xi during the trade talks. And it was later reported that my father was indeed raised. And we're so grateful for his -- for him to show ongoing
concern now that he's wrongfully convicted, really gives us a great amount of hope.
SCIUTTO: Jonathan, I wonder if, in your experience, you believe that to be true, that international pressure, including perhaps a phone call from the
U.S. president, could conceivably give him his freedom?
PRICE: Generally speaking, in this sort of cases, and I act in many, that is welcomed by clients. I mean, bringing focus to the cases is an absolute
key ingredient of the strategy. But it's right for two reasons. One, because it can be strategically important, but two, because it is important
to all of us to shine a light on these huge injustices.
SCIUTTO: Claire, before we go, I just want to ask you personally, how you, how your brother, how the rest of your family is doing through this. It's
already been an ordeal of years, and now you face the prospect of more.
LAI: We are, of course, heartbroken by the verdict, and especially the tone taken in the verdict was -- came as quite a shock. But you know, our
father, he is a man who -- when he was a boy, he came to Hong Kong -- he went to Hong Kong guided by the love of a half-eaten bar of chocolate. And
he met his greatest loves, you know, God, truth and family. And, you know, his story is one of rags to riches. And if he can do that, I think we can
deal with this setback and we can keep fighting.
SCIUTTO: Well, here's to your hope. We do send our best to you and your family. Claire, Jonathan, thanks so much for joining.
LAI: Thank you so much for having us.
PRICE: Thank you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: A spokesperson for Hong Kong's government responded to our interview saying Jimmy Lai's medical treatment while in custody was, quote,
"adequate and comprehensive." The government also strongly denied that Jimmy Lai was on trial for his political views or beliefs, saying the
territory, quote, "is a society underpinned by the rule of law."
To our discussion about whether U.S. President Donald Trump might influence Lai's possible release, the Hong Kong government responded saying it,
quote, "strongly demands foreign countries to immediately stop acting against the international law and basic norms of international relations
and interfering in China's internal affairs and Hong Kong affairs," end quote.
The Chinese foreign ministry responded separately saying, quote, "Hong Kong affairs are purely China's internal matters. The media should respect the
rule of law in Hong Kong and refrain from interfering in ongoing judicial cases," end quote.
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I'll be right back after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: This just in, President Donald Trump writing on social media words directed at Venezuela and the government of Venezuela. He says,
quote, "he has designated Venezuela's regime as a foreign terrorist organization and has now ordered a total and complete blockade of all
sanctioned oil tankers going into and out of Venezuela." We'll continue to follow developments in Venezuela with that story.
Well, the dictionary definition of bigotry is, quote, "the stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed belief or opinion that differs from one's
own." Given that dictionary meaning, consider the following comment Monday from a sitting U.S. Senator Republican Tommy Tuberville. Quote, "Islam is
not a religion. It's a cult. Islamists aren't here to assimilate. They're here to conquer. Stop worrying about offending the pearl clutchers. We've
got to send them home now," his use of all caps, "or we'll become the United Caliphate of America," end quote.
The spark for his comment appeared to be the shooting in Australia targeting Jewish people. However, Tuberville's foes did not distinguish
between Muslims of which there are some 2 billion worldwide, 4 million here in the U.S. And Islamists broadly defined as those who support Islamic
fundamentalism or the terrorists who carried out that awful Sydney attack. As it happens one of the heroes of that shooting was a Syrian-born Muslim.
I asked Tuberville's team if he was distinguishing between Muslims and Muslim fundamentalists who support violence or is he demanding that all
Muslims leave this country. His team said he means Islamists who practice Sharia law. So, I then asked how many Muslims does he believe follow Sharia
law and if all Muslims are members of a cult? I've not received an answer to those questions yet.
However, his social media post and this knee-jerk reaction to terrorism have precursors including from President Trump who said the following in
2015 following a terror attack in San Bernardino California.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, THEN-U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States
until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Once elected he invoked a travel ban via executive order on seven Muslim majority countries. It was then expanded to other nations and Trump
in fact today just expanded it further to some 39 countries with full or partial restrictions. Most of those countries we should note in the Middle
East and Africa.
[18:55:00]
Remember bigotry is defined as stubborn intolerance of others belief, and as we just recounted there those are the quite public positions that we
shared of some of the leaders of the highest office holders.
Thanks so much for taking the time to join us today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay with CNN.
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