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The Brief with Jim Sciutto
CNN International: President Trump to Meet China's Xi Jinping in a Few Hours; Kevin Kiley Breaks Logjam, Forces U.S. House Vote on Ukraine; U.S. Wholesale Prices Jump; Kevin Warsh Confirmed as Fed Chair; Russia Attacks Ukraine with Hundreds of Drones; Murdaugh Murder Convictions Overturned; Princess of Wales in Italy. Russia's War On Ukraine; Alex Murdaugh's New Trial; Princess Of Wales Goes To Italy. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired May 13, 2026 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR, "THE BRIEF": Hello, and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, and
you're watching "The Brief."
Just in this hour, Donald Trump and Xi Jinping are set to meet in just a few hours with Iran, Taiwan, and trade all on the table during their two-
day summit. The U.S. Senate has confirmed Kevin Warsh as the new chair of the Federal Reserve, and cheering crowds welcome Princess Kate to Italy on
her first overseas trip since being treated for cancer.
We do begin in Beijing, where President Trump and his delegation are now preparing for two days of talks with the Chinese leader, Xi Jinping.
China's Xi scheduled to greet the U.S. president in the Great Hall of the People just about four hours from now. On the table, talks on trade,
tariffs, technology, and Taiwan. The four T's, easy to remember.
Earlier, China rolled out the red carpet for President Trump's arrival. Lots of pomp and circumstance. 300 children in uniform waving American and
Chinese flags. The president offered a fist pump, as he's want to do, before joining the motorcade. Other Trumps in attendance, the president's
son, Eric, and daughter-in-law, Lara. Also, present, some dozen high- profile business leaders, including Apple's Tim Cook and Tesla CEO, Elon Musk.
Kristen Holmes is traveling with the president. She joins me now. It's a big time for President Trump, given the number of issues he would like to
make progress, progress on with the Chinese leader. Can you tell us what his priorities are on this trip?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: What they really want out of this, Jim, is some kind of economic deal. They want any kind of
either private sector deals or public deals that they can tout as a success out of this trip. And it's likely they're going to get it, because both
China and the U.S. want to come out of this with something. And they've already been laying the groundwork.
We know that Secretary of Treasury Scott Bessent has really been kind of priming for this meeting, laying all the groundwork for economic deals.
They're going to talk about agriculture potentially China buying some soybeans as well as commercial jetliners, and technology. That's going to
be a big point of conversation.
But, you know, overall, there are a lot of questions as to what President Xi is going to really want out of this. Does he want to talk about Taiwan?
Is that going to be his number one agenda? What does he want in terms of business deals? Because from every analyst that we're talking to, he really
has more of the cards right now than President Trump does, and that's because of the war in Iran.
And we should note, Jim, and we've been talking about this for weeks, President Trump did not want to come here with the war in Iran still
looming. That's why he delayed this trip six weeks. He thought it would be over by now. Obviously, it's not. Not only is it not over, it seems to be
possibly even ramping up, with President Trump now seriously considering going back in with more combat missions.
But President Trump needs President Xi's help when it comes to dealing with the Iranians. They have a close relationship. It seems as though Iran is
China's biggest partner and closest ally in that region. They get a nu- enormous amount of their oil and gas from Iran. So, President Trump is
going to ask President Xi to try and get the Iranians to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, as well as potentially even sign a peace deal. The question is,
what does President Xi want in exchange for that?
SCIUTTO: No question. It's a lot of asks coming from the U.S. president. Kristen Holmes in Beijing, thanks so much. Of course, the timing of the
summit notable, as Kristen noted, the war between the U.S. and Iran continues, and the resulting global energy crisis continues as well, with
peace talks still at an impasse.
My next guest believes some kind of energy deal, or at least those new commercial contracts Kristen was discussing, could emerge from these
meetings. He also says, U.S. allies are going to be watching quite closely, especially Taiwan, waiting to see whether the island's political status and
crucial arms purchases will come up between the two leaders might change.
Joining me now, Daniel Kritenbrink, former U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs. Dan, good to have you back.
DANIEL KRITENBRINK, FORMER U.S. ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE, EAST ASIAN AND PACIFIC AFFAIRS AND FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO VIETNAM: Hey, Jim.
Thanks for having me.
[18:05:00]
SCIUTTO: So, from a power dynamic perspective, who has the upper hand in these talks? Who believes they have the upper hand?
KRITENBRINK: Well, the interesting thing, Jim, is probably both sides think they have the upper hand. You know, I take Kristen's point in her
really excellent lay-down, that in some ways, President Trump probably didn't want to come into Beijing with the Iran war looming over his trip
and, you know, potentially creating the optic that his leverage has been undermined.
But the reality is, if you focus on what's happened between Washington and Beijing in the last year, both sides proved that they have the means to
hurt one another. Both sides stared into the abyss of what a full-on trade war and hard decoupling would look like, and they didn't like what they
saw.
So, I think despite the Iran overhang of this visit, I think the real focus for the two leaders is on stability and maintaining this so-called fragile
truce that the two of them agreed to last October in Korea.
SCIUTTO: OK. How about those deliverables that Kristen was talking about? Buy some pulling jets, you buy some soybeans. I mean, I suppose the issue
with that is China has made promises in the past to buy a lot of soybeans and not bought all those soybeans. I mean, Are these, you know, written in
stone?
KRITENBRINK: You know, what's interesting to me, Jim, is if you listen to U.S. officials, they said the reason why they're not focused on structural
trade talks is they don't believe they can trust the Chinese and they don't believe the Chinese will implement a structural trade deal. In other words,
a deal that would require the Chinese to change their economy or their laws and regulations.
But what U.S. officials have said is they believe if you focus on a narrowly tailored commercial deal and secure a commitment to buy planes,
grains and some other things, that that's more easily enforceable and the Chinese are more likely to deliver. And also, that kind of a short-term
gain is easier to sell at home for the president as well.
SCIUTTO: How about with regards to the Iran War? President Trump would like China to pressure Iran to open the Strait of Hormuz. Is that something
he's willing or able to deliver on?
KRITENBRINK: Well, it's quite interesting. If you look at the president's cabinet, Secretary Hegseth, Secretary Rubio and others have said that the
intention is to put pressure on China to do more to press Tehran to open the Strait of Hormuz. If you listen to what the president said as he was
getting on Air Force One, he said he didn't think Iran was going to be central because he has the Iranians where he wants them.
I think the reality is probably in the middle. It won't surprise me if the president puts some pressure on Xi Jinping to talk to the leaders in Tehran
to press them to do the right thing. And look, this is a place where I think China can play a positive role.
But one reaction I would have, I think the Chinese have been incredibly unsentimental regarding their ties with Iran. It's actually quite
extraordinary. They were having this summit under these conditions. We're in the middle of a war with Iran. And here comes -- here goes President
Trump to Beijing. And Iran was supposedly one of Iran's -- Iran was supposedly one of China's closest partners in the region. But quite
frankly, China hasn't done very much to stick up for them.
SCIUTTO: So, let me ask you this, because China does suffer from higher energy prices, buys a lot of oil from Iran.
KRITENBRINK: Yes.
SCIUTTO: But it also sees the U.S. bogged down in the Middle East once again, and I imagine see some benefit in that in their own cost benefit
analysis. Do they gain more or lose more from the war continuing as it is?
KRITENBRINK: It's really hard for them to figure this out. I think, Jim, one of the reasons why China has been so cautious on the war in Iran is I
think they find the situation to be very difficult. Yes, there is some benefit for Beijing. Washington's bogged down yet again in the Middle East.
Washington is now seen as being the source of instability in the international system. And somehow Beijing is seen as the responsible power.
But, you know, Beijing also has to balance its other interests in the Gulf. It has to worry about what are the GCC countries, I think many of them who
are being attacked by the Iranians, right? And China is very hesitant to take on any real risk for this conflict. So, I think our asks of Beijing
have to be moderate and modest. I think they probably will be.
SCIUTTO: Tell me the level of concern, particularly in Taiwan, that the U.S. president seeds ground there that he might not see as crucial, but is
very crucial to Taiwan.
KRITENBRINK: I think the level of anxiety is pretty significant. Look, it's interesting. You talk to friends across the region. Most American
allies and partners want to see stability between Washington and Beijing, but they don't want to see things to be too good between the two countries.
And they certainly don't want to see the United States into accommodating a posture. I think that's the fear.
So, whether it's on Taiwan or tariffs or tech, I think U.S. allies and partners will be looking to see what does the president do. If he's seen as
giving away too much, that could increase concerns about the credibility of the United States, the reliability of the United States.
And specifically, on Taiwan, I do think this is a potential wild card in the visit. If you listen to some of the briefings that the president's
officials have given in advance of the visit, they said, don't expect to see very much here. But I still think there's a possibility that the
president might show some flexibility, and that could have a really significant impact on the way the region views the United States.
SCIUTTO: What will he get in return for that? I mean, will China be offering some sort of quid pro quo for --
KRITENBRINK: Well, that would be the question. It's hard to tell. And quite frankly, I think we won't know until the two leaders sit down. But
look, Chinese friends as well, they know that this is a risky play, too. And so, we'll have to see. Does Xi Jinping actually push the issue?
[18:10:00]
They know that, for example, any U.S. concession on Taiwan would probably elicit a backlash on Capitol Hill. And also, you know, China normally
doesn't negotiate over issues like Taiwan. So, we'll have to see. But there is a temptation, longstanding temptation on the part of the Chinese, to see
if they could get the U.S. to shift its policy ever so slightly and thereby undermine confidence in the United States.
SCIUTTO: Well, we know the people of Taiwan are watching very closely. Dan Kritenbrink, always good to have you. Thanks so much.
KRITENBRINK: Thank you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Well, an independent lawmaker has now tipped the scales in the U.S. House, becoming the final signature to force a vote on giving more
U.S. aid to Ukraine. Democrats were joined by a small block of Republicans who defied their own leadership, but that only got them 217 votes, one
short of what they needed.
My next guest, a newly independent lawmaker, former Republican Kevin Kiley, was the final signature to break that deadlock. And California Congressman
Kevin Kiley joins me now. Thanks so much for taking the time.
REP. KEVIN KILEY (I-CA): You bet. Thanks for having me.
SCIUTTO: So, you, of course, were the deciding vote to force this Ukraine bill onto the House floor. Given that the president is very much opposed to
this, where does this go from here? Does it have an actual chance of becoming a reality?
KILEY: I think it does. And I think at the very least, it gives us momentum, it gives us some leverage in order to enable a diplomatic
solution. And I think that this is the right time for Congress to assert itself.
You know, we've seen Ukraine make significant gains in recent weeks. Last month, Russia, for the first time, had a net loss of territory. Russia's
position is weakened. The Russian public is disaffected. And yet, this recent ceasefire just fell apart, and you have renewed hostilities.
And so, what I think that shows is there is an opportunity here for a diplomatic end to this conflict, a durable peace consistent with the
interests of the United States and our allies. But we need to have leverage to make that happen. And Congress has the ability to provide that leverage
through this bill.
SCIUTTO: It was notable that Vladimir Putin, during his Victory Day celebrations, which of course he had to ask for a ceasefire to hold them
because of concerns about attacks by Ukrainian drones, that he uttered some language there about the war possibly coming to an end soon. Do you -- did
you consider that significant?
KILEY: Well, I think it reflects his weakened position. Of course, we know that he's made many statements before that, you know, hold out the
possibility of some sort of end while all the while seeking to drag it out. So, that's why that in order to seize the opportunity, the opening that I
think is there, we need to have as strong a hand as possible. And I think that to the extent the president is playing a role in mediating an end to
it, it actually strengthens his ability to do so.
If we have Congress behind -- saying in a unified way, in a bipartisan way, that we are not going to tolerate Russian aggression going forward, that
we're going to provide support for Ukraine going forward, that we're going to assure the interests of the United States and NATO and our allies are
protected going forward.
SCIUTTO: The bill, as you know, slaps new economic sanctions on Russia. This administration, which suspended sanctions on Russia in the midst of
the Iran war to try to help push down oil prices, do you believe -- do you have confidence that the administration is going to reassert those existing
sanctions or do you think they're giving Putin a longer-term pass here?
KILEY: Well, I think that's necessary. And I think that, you know, to the extent that Russia is not participating in a serious effort to end this
conflict, that there needs to be, you know, further action by the United States, which is exactly what this bill does. It has a very sweeping set of
new sanctions that it would impose and would also say that Congress would have to approve of any of those sanctions being suspended in the future. I
think it's well past time that Congress exercises its constitutional responsibility here. In fact, I think that's what's going to be necessary
in order for the peace here to be durable.
And one more thing, by the way, when it comes to Iran, you know, reports also show that Russia has been providing information to Iran, enabling them
to target U.S. military assets. And so, I think that this is also about sending a message that that will not be tolerated when they're putting U.S.
personnel at risk.
SCIUTTO: Yes, remarkably, the president has not held Russia to account for that. I want to talk about China, if I can, given that the president is now
in China. Perhaps you heard my earlier conversation there that there is concern in Asia, particularly in Taiwan, that the president will cede
ground on U.S. support for Taiwan, perhaps up to it, including saying the U.S. no longer or that the U.S. now would oppose independence for the
island. Do you fear that he will make undue concessions such as that on Taiwan?
KILEY: Well, that's certainly not something that I would support. And I think, you know, the president is aware of what is at what's at stake
there. And that is, you know, just one of a number of issues that I know are going to be part of these talks.
[18:15:00]
I mean, there's obviously immense geopolitical concerns vis-a-vis Iran and other conflicts going on in the world. There's the issue of fentanyl
precursors.
There's also, I think, an area where we really need to find common ground is around A.I. This is also often viewed through a geopolitical lens. But
there are risks associated with advanced systems that are sort of humanity- level problems, not nation-state-level problems, that I hope will be part of those talks as well.
SCIUTTO: On the Iran War, when you speak to your constituents and they ask you, when is this war going to end, how do you answer it? And do you
believe the U.S. president has a plan to end the war definitively?
KILEY: Well, I think that ending the war definitively on acceptable terms, consistent with our objectives in an endurable way, similarly requires
congressional engagement as well. Because even if the president manages to work out a great resolution, if you don't have buy-in from Congress, if you
don't have buy-in for our allies, then those objectives, if we achieve them, will not necessarily be durable.
So, take nuclear weapons, for example. Even if we get a commitment that's satisfactory with respect to developing nuclear capability, if you don't
have the means to enforce that going forward, then we could end up back in the exact same position. So, I think that, you know, we will be a lot
better off if Congress engages through the budget process, through when they're coming to us with a supplemental, being very clear about how those
funds can be used and what the objectives are going forward, as well as through oversight.
I think that that's how we'll get to a point where we can bring this to a resolution as quickly as possible, consistent with our interests in the
region, and in a way that will bring down costs for Americans, which has become a huge issue as this conflict has gone on. We've, of course, seen a
big increase in gas prices, and in my state of California, we have by far the highest gas prices in the country.
SCIUTTO: Yes, and no sign of those coming down anytime soon. Congressman Kevin Kiley, we appreciate you joining us.
KILEY: Of course. Thanks for having me.
SCIUTTO: Well, speaking of the Iran war, CNN's Matthew Chance is now on the ground there. We'd like to note that CNN only operates in Iran with the
permission of the Iranian government as required under local regulations, however, maintains full editorial control over what CNN reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're on a long drive towards the Iranian capital, but we've had to stop because we've
come to a bridge that was struck by a U.S. or an Israeli airstrike during the recent bombing campaign.
You can see a whole section of it has fallen into the river, and if you look around over here, all the cars and trucks have had to go around on
this detour. When you consider all the other roads and bridges that have been hit, it's added hours to the journey time.
Well, before we arrived in Iran, some Iranians told us, don't go in, it's too dangerous, the war could resume at any time, especially amid growing
tensions over the closure of the Strait of Hormuz and the failure of the U.S. and Iran to reach a compromise over nuclear activities.
But with President Trump on that state visit to China, both the U.S. and Iran seem to be looking to Beijing as a possible way out of their deadlock.
Iran is China, well, China is Iran's major trading partner. China buys most of Iranian oil, has a shared interest with Washington in getting the energy
supplies unblocked.
Meanwhile, here in Iran, we're glimpsing how the country is being shaped by the conflicts and the pressure it's under. From crowds of Iranians at the
border we've just been to, hauling cooking oil across from Turkey where it's much cheaper, an acute cost-of-living crisis, remember, sparked
nationwide protests late last year that ended in horrific violence. To the words of one Iranian father who told me that what he called Trump's war had
silenced people and made the Iranian government stronger, in his words, at least for now.
Matthew Chan, CNN, on the long road to Tehran.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Still coming up on "The Brief," inflation pressures intensifying in the U.S., a day after hotter than expected consumer price data,
wholesale prices, now adding to those concerns. We'll have the details next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:20:00]
SCIUTTO: Now, to Wall Street. The S&P and NASDAQ closed at record highs, despite a hotter-than-expected read on wholesale inflation. Chip stocks
rebounded from Tuesday's losses with Micron Technology up almost 5 percent. Six of the so-called Magnificent Seven tech stocks posted solid gains as
well.
The U.S. Senate has confirmed Kevin Warsh as new chair of the Federal Reserve. He was approved in a largely party-line vote with the support of
just one Democrat. Warsh is, of course, exceeding Jerome Powell as the Fed confronts stubborn inflation. New data shows that inflation at the
wholesale level was much worse than expected last month. Producer price index jumped 6 percent on an annual basis in April, the biggest increase
since December 2022.
Joining me now, Jason Furman, former chair of the U.S. Council of Economic Advisers, now a professor at the Harvard Kennedy School. Jason, good to
have you back.
JASON FURMAN, FORMER CHAIR, U.S. COUNCIL OF ECONOMY ADVISERS: Good to be with you.
SCIUTTO: So, I think that, you know, when we talk about inflation, the word transitory should be banned forever. But are we seeing in these
numbers, the CPI and the PPI, that this inflation problem is sticky? Sticky, you know, both with the Iran war and energy prices, but even its
stickiness prior to the Iran war.
FURMAN: Look, five years ago, I did not think it was transitory from the beginning. Now, I'm a bit less sure. We were -- inflation was coming down.
Everything was looking good in the economy. And then we had two big shocks. The first big shock was tariffs. That raised inflation by a half a point to
a point. And now, we have an even bigger one, which is the Iran war. And those are classic temporary inflation things. It doesn't make it any less
painful. But I'm also worried because it can change the psychology. And we've been five years into it. We shouldn't be adding these types of logs
to the fire at this stage.
SCIUTTO: As you know, President Trump is gunning for interest rate cuts. He has his man now the chair. Of course, there's division on the board as
to the way forward. But do these inflation figures, have they just killed the chance of a rate cut anytime soon?
FURMAN: I mean, two things have killed the chance -- two things should have killed the chance for a rate cut. And I think probably will kill the
chance for a rate cut. I think the committee will be very rational. The first is this sky-high inflation.
And then the second is what you were talking about in the lead up to this. The stock market is booming. So, the economy is actually getting a lot of
stimulation already. It doesn't need any more from interest rate cuts. And Kevin Warsh himself in the past has talked about how when stock prices are
rising sharply, is a bad time to cut interest rates. I hope he sticks with that view when he's in the seat.
[18:25:00]
SCIUTTO: A lot of that stock market rise driven by A.I. and A.I. related investments. When you look at the headline or the top line, you know, GDP
figures in the fourth quarter, the first quarter of this year, they're not great, right? And then you add inflation. I mean, is that -- is the economy
healthy in your view? Is it struggling?
FURMAN: To me, the most important is the labor market. The unemployment rate is pretty low, but there is things that are starting to look scary,
especially if you look at youth unemployment rising. A lot of the reduction in job market flows. People are calling it a frozen labor market. No hire,
no fire. So -- but overall, you know, to have an unemployment rate in the low fours is a pretty good place to be.
Now, in terms of GDP growth, one of the biggest things that's hurting GDP growth is that we just don't have very much immigration into the United
States. And without immigrants, our population is getting older. People are retiring. And so, we're not going to have much job growth. And we're going
to have a challenge to generate economic growth. One of the real assets in the U.S. economy is our ability to attract people from all over the world
and really actually create jobs for them and have them create economic performance and benefits for all of us.
SCIUTTO: Sure. In your view, is the A.I. investment something of a sugar high for the economy? I mean, listen, A.I. is booming and we're seeing
applications in so many ways. It's not all imagined, right? But a lot of money is being spent in a lot of places where it's not clear, you know,
where the return is. Do you have concerns about that, about there being an A.I. bubble in an economic sense as opposed to just a stock market sense?
FURMAN: Look, there's two things here. One is, is it a miraculous technology? Yes. I think if we didn't have any more progress, but we just
figured out how to use what we have now, we could coast off that for a decade in terms of pretty good productivity growth. And I think we'll learn
more.
Then there's a second question of can you monetize it? The investment will only pay off not just if it adds to productivity, but if the companies can
figure out how to pay back the enormous cost, the enormous cash reductions they've seen. And that's where I have much more of a question mark.
And in part, the commoditization of it and the ease of switching between different systems makes it unlike some of our previous digital
technologies, which were much stickier, locked you into, say, the Apple ecosystem and let them, you know, in my case, profit off me to this day.
SCIUTTO: Jason Furman, always good to have you. Thank you.
FURMAN: Good to see you.
SCIUTTO: Checking some of today's other business headlines. Fans in New York City will pay a bit less to take the train to World Cup matches. New
Jersey Transit says a roundtrip ticket to the stadium will now be $98. It was originally $150, then $105, still well above what it normally is. New
Jersey hosts eight World Cup matches, including the final.
Samsung Electronics, the world's largest maker of memory chips, is facing a potential strike. Contract talks mediated by the South Korean government
failed to reach an agreement. The union now plans to go on strike May 21st, and the government has called an emergency meeting. Semiconductors
accounted for 37 percent of the country's exports last month.
A record nine NFL games will be played outside of the U.S. across seven countries this coming season. That includes the first ever regular season
games in Australia. That's a long way away. And France. The NFL's debut in Australia will feature the San Francisco 49ers and Los Angeles Rams in
September, both West Coast teams. Of course, the Pittsburgh Steelers will face the New Orleans Saints in France in October.
Just ahead, Russia hits Ukraine with hundreds of drones. It forced one NATO member to scramble fighter jets, while another has now summoned Russia's
ambassador. The attacks came very close to NATO territory. We're going to break it all down.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:32:20]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to THE BRIEF, I'm Jim Sciuto. And here are the international headlines we're watching today.
President Donald Trump is in Beijing ahead of pivotal talks with the Chinese leader. He's set to meet Xi Jinping in the coming hours. The
summit's agenda, certain to include the war with Iran, tariffs, technology and US arms sales to Taiwan.
US Vice President JD Vance says negotiators are still making progress in peace talks with Iran. This despite President Trump saying he's unsatisfied
with Tehran's responses so far. Vance says the administration is "laser- focused" on ensuring that Iran can never obtain a nuclear weapon.
A longtime member of Keir Starmer's cabinet is set to challenge him for the job of British prime minister. Health Secretary Wes Streeting is reportedly
planning to resign and launch a bid to replace Starmer as Labour leader. Streeting must get the support of at least 81 Labour members of parliament
to trigger a leadership vote.
Russia launched one of its longest and biggest attacks at Ukraine on Wednesday, sending a salvo of some 800 drones, this according to the
Ukrainian president. Zelenskyy added that Russia targeted the western portion of Ukraine, close, of course, to Ukraine's border with NATO
nations.
Poland responded by scrambling fighter jets. Hungary's government summoned the Russian ambassador. Joining me now is Sergey Lagodinsky, a member of
the European Parliament from Germany, also part of its delegation for Eastern European partners, including Ukraine. And he joins me now. Thanks
so much for joining.
SERGEY LAGODINSKY, EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER, GERMANY: Thanks for inviting me.
SCIUTTO: So first, your reaction to this attack. I mean, we had this brief ceasefire but of course the moment the ceasefire is over, Russia is
attacking again but notably quite close to NATO. Was that intentional?
LAGODINSKY: I think it's always intentional what Russians do, and Russia is doing what Russia has been doing for the past four years, provoking,
killing and massacring in Ukraine. And that shows how serious it is and that we should continue our support for Ukraine both in the United States
and in the EU.
SCIUTTO: So you've been in the US now for three weeks and meeting with lawmakers from both parties. Do you sense or do you hear any movement on
Capitol Hill in terms of restarting US military assistance to Ukraine?
LAGODINSKY: I hear there is good intent on the Hill and there is the resolution which was introduced now bipartisan resolution in this
direction. But what I hear at the same time is, it is all about one person and the decisions of one person on the top of the chain. And this is
President Trump.
[18:35:07]
And unfortunately, our experiences with this administration and with this President is, it's very difficult to count on any certainty regarding his
plans. We have seen and have witnessed now his threats to withdraw 5,000 and more troops, American troops, from Germany, and also to cancel on the
plans to position Tomahawks and other missiles that we strategically need to close the strategic gap that we have in Europe in order to be able to
protect Europe in the future.
It's unfortunate, and this is something that does not contribute to our trust relationship and trust we need for an alliance that would be
efficient.
SCIUTTO: So does Europe, does Germany, does NATO have a plan to fill those gaps?
LAGODINSKY: We do have those plans, but those plans take a long time. And unfortunately, it's very serious and it's sad to say this in public, but
this is public information. Even if we go on with plans to have something like Tomahawk missiles made in Europe, it will be in the 2030s. So there
are some information, there is information that Russia is planning an attack on EU soil in 2029, so we definitely will not be ready until then.
We know that Russian missiles, ballistic missiles, are positioned in Kaliningrad, which is basically on the border with the EU and we don't have
a response without that cooperation with American friends.
SCIUTTO: It's interesting now that particularly during the Iran war and in the wake of it, that a whole host of countries are now reaching out to
Ukraine for help because Ukraine has proven it has the drone technology to defend and to attack, frankly. Can Ukraine, oddly enough, help Europe
defend itself now?
LAGODINSKY: You know, Ukraine is already doing that. I mean, the resistance, the defense that Ukraine has been showing, it's defending our
eastern borders. And if Ukraine would have fallen, we would be next. And our Polish friends, our Baltic friends, are saying precisely that. That's
why Ukraine and support for Ukraine important.
And you're absolutely right in terms of innovation, in terms of being kind of a firsthand experience. It's the only Western nation now that is testing
and experiencing this new type of wars and is exposed to this new type of wars with drones and others. That's why Saudi Arabia is reaching out, and
that's why we, Germany, my country, is also, for example, concluding a strategic agreement with Ukraine in order to learn from them and not only
to help them.
SCIUTTO: President Trump, as he goes to China and not just there, often says that the US is respected again in the world, that the world respects
American power. We had a guest on earlier who said that actually China feels quite confident in its meeting with President Trump. What is the
perception of American leadership and power in Europe today? Is it stronger or weaker?
LAGODINSKY: I think looking at it from the European perspective, this power is eroding. I mean, this is something that I don't understand strategically
in terms of a long term strategy. America was there, it was respected, it was counted as a friend and an ally. And we depend on the United States.
We've been depending on the United States for decades. And breaking this dependence, turning this dependence into vulnerabilities, and by that,
scaring away the former allies, forcing them to talk about sovereignty, you know, cutting ties away from Americans. I don't think this is in the
interest of the United States in the mid and long term.
And unfortunately, this administration is not thinking this way. And I think it's a shame.
SCIUTTO: In terms of the Iran war, seeing the President having some difficulty extracting himself and the country from the Iran war. As you
know, the President criticized European allies for not supporting the US enough and not supporting reopening the Strait of Hormuz today. From your
perspective, did Europe dodge a bullet to some degree by not getting involved in this war?
LAGODINSKY: We can discuss whether it was diplomatically or strategically wise to say something, some of the things that were said. I do think that
it's right to keep us away from a war in which preparation and plans, if there were any plans. We were not -- we had not been involved.
We are not those who should, you know, submit ourselves to any wish from the White House. These are sovereign countries. The EU is a sovereign
union. And from that perspective, I think that our countries are preparing to help if necessary, after the war is over. For example, on demining the
Strait of Hormuz or giving other possibilities to work together.
[18:40:10]
However, it was not our war. And our leaders are right in saying this because this was not the war which was discussed with us prior to that. And
there is no strategy that we can recognize in this war. So why would we join this war?
LAGODINSKY: This is not the case of Article 5 of NATO. There was no attack, immediate attack on one of NATO members. So there is no obligation to join
this war.
SCIUTTO: Sergey Lagodinsky, we appreciate you sharing your point of view.
LAGODINSKY: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Thanks for joining. Now to the Philippines where gunshots were fired today inside the country's Senate building. This after a senator
wanted by the International Criminal Court barricaded himself inside.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
SCIUTTO: You hear the gunshots there and you can see and hear witnesses including journalists fleeing. Details of the shooting remain unclear. The
Philippines Interior Secretary says, an unidentified armed man or men fired those shots. No casualties have been reported.
His murder trial over the deaths of his wife and son captured attention around the world. Now, a US court says Alex Murdaugh was denied a fair
trial. The reason why and what comes next ahead on THE BRIEF.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: The attorney general of South Carolina says that his office will retry Alex Murdaugh for murder. A jury had found the former lawyer guilty
three years ago of killing his wife and 22-year-old son. The state supreme court overturned that conviction, however, on Wednesday.
In a unanimous ruling, it said Murdaugh was denied a fair trial because of "improper influence" of a county clerk who worked on the proceedings and
later wrote about it in a book. Joining me now is Michael Moore, former US attorney and a partner with Moore Hall, a litigation firm in Atlanta.
Michael, good to have you back.
MICHAEL MOORE, FORMER US ATTORNEY: Glad to be with you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: So you've been in the courtroom a lot of times. And as I, you know, reading going back three years, reading about how this clerk kinds of
things she said in the courtroom to jurors, et cetera, it seemed unusual to me but you're far more experienced than me. Do you think it was right to
overturn this conviction?
[18:45:05]
MOORE: Yes. Well, I am glad to be with you. I don't think the court had much choice in this case. And I think if you sort of realize that the clerk
of court is oftentimes seen as almost a representative or the extension of the judge. I mean, oftentimes that's who the jurors have the most contact
with, and the clerk helps them get in the jury room and handles their paychecks and this kind of stuff.
And so jurors can mistake things that a clerk says for directions from a court. So when, in this case, the clerk reportedly said something about
watches, mannerisms, demeanor, and how he testifies this kind of thing, that's something the judge has to say in his charge. So before a jury goes
out to make a decision, the court, a judge, will give a jury charge, telling them what the law is and how to apply that law to the facts.
Here, the clerk of court's comments, I think, really invaded that province of the judge and brought her feelings into the deliberation room. And
that's improper and denies. No matter what you think about this defendant or this case or anything else, that kind of conduct would deny anyone a
fair trial.
SCIUTTO: Originally denied this new trial called the clerk's comments fleeting and foolish, but argued that the evidence against him was
overwhelming. Do you agree that in another trial he's likely to be convicted or might, you know, might he run free?
MOORE: I think there was a lot of evidence against him in this case, and that's going to be interesting. One thing that we would have to wait and
see until the next trial would be whether or not he would testify. You know, he testified in this case, and I think it hurt him. And so, the
question will be now in a new chance, he's getting sort of a redo and then call the last one a mulligan.
Is he going to take the stand again, or did his lawyer see how bad the jury reacted to him? The other thing is the state in this case, they brought in
a lot of evidence about motive, but the problem is they went too far. They -- instead of talking about the financial motives that he may have had to
do this, and clearly they needed to explain why somebody would kill his wife and son with guns, they were trying to say, look, he had these
financial reasons.
But then they went into things like how those financial crimes impacted victims in the financial cases, not in this murder case. And so you sort of
saw where the Supreme Court said, look, we're not making an evidentiary ruling on that now, but you need to know you went a little far. So this was
a case of where, in my mind, where the states, you know, we say, you know, pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered.
This is a case where the state was a hog and they really tried to get in too much information. They should stick to the facts, stick to the case.
And I think, you know, retry them and they'll have a good chance at conviction again.
SCIUTTO: And I should have known, as you did, that he's still serving decades in prison for those financial crimes. But given all the endless
cover coverage here non-stop, you know, media coverage over years, can he find -- can -- can the court find an impartial jury to retry him?
MOORE: That's going to be a tough question. And I think you'll see the jury selection process last weeks and weeks, which you don't often see in the
state court system. And it will really be a matter of letting -- the judge is going to have to let the lawyers really dig into the perceptions and the
feelings that prospective jurors may have about this case and what they've heard or not heard any, if they have heard something.
Can they still say, look, we're going to keep an open mind, you know, as a prospective juror. This to me is something that I can still set aside, that
I heard something, you know, come across my media channel. But -- and I'll listen to the facts and base my decision solely on the facts and the law.
But the judge is going to have to give both sides some latitude given sort of the notoriety and the press conference that's going on with this trial.
SCIUTTO: Michael Moore, appreciate you having you.
MOORE: Great being with you, Jim. Thank you.
SCIUTTO: She stepped out of the spotlight after doctors diagnosed her with cancer. Now the Princess of Wales is on her first official international
trip since undergoing cancer treatment. We're going to go live to Italy for details.
[18:49:19]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: The Princess of Wales getting a warm welcome as she visits Italy on her first official overseas trip since she was treated for cancer.
Catherine is on a two day solo working trip with a charity she launched to raise awareness about the importance of early childhood education. She
chose to visit Reggio Emilia to highlight the town's creative hands on approach to preschool education which has been emulated around the world.
Royal correspondent Max Foster is in Reggio Emilia, Italy, joins me now. How's the visit?
MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's interesting, you know, this is a tentative first step, really back onto the global stage for the
princess. She's been out of action for a couple of years now, really just doing limited engagements. And what I was told is that, you know, she faced
this life-threatening experience and she's coming back from that still in recovery. But she looked at that time and thought, well, when I go back to
work, I really want to throw myself into this particular issue.
And it's all about early learning and how the brain develops in that time and how you can resolve many issues that people have later in life if you
can get that bit right. And she was just really impressed by what she'd heard about this city and this system that they have, and she wanted to
visit it. And she brought this huge spotlight, of course, with her Jim.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: Chants echoing of "Ciao, Kate" as the princess starts her comeback tour in Northern Italy, her first official overseas trip since undergoing
cancer treatment. Thousands cramming into the piazza at Reggio Emilia to welcome her.
Princess greeting all the well wishes that turned out here in Italy. A princess coming to town doesn't happen every day, so much excitement about
that. She has been in recovery, of course, from her cancer treatment. So this is a huge moment for her. The palace saying she's trying to balance
her public work with her recovery.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It has been an honor to meet her.
FOSTER: What was your reaction when she came over?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's amazing. I can't believe it's my highs.
FOSTER: The Princess is here to learn about the internationally recognized Reggio approach, a philosophy of early childhood education built around
creativity, relationships and hands on discovery.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I gave her a present. It was a little rose which will last five years because it has been stabilized. It was in a small box and
she was very happy. And then she said that my heart was very glamorous.
FOSTER: Palace aides describe this trip as an important step in the princess' recovery journey, adding that she takes great joy from this work.
The visit also marks Catherine's first official trip to Italy, a country she previously spent time in before university. Though she admitted it, she
needed to do work on her Italian.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The way she has approached the city and the experience shows a real interest, not just something facade, something deep, which is
incredible.
FOSTER: The princess believes early learning should be creative and prioritized in the same way as climate change. This is a global mission for
someone coming back to the world stage with renewed vigor after a life changing health event.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: So it was a bit of a test case really, coming without a husband and doing a project which she wants to spearhead going forward. I'm told that
she felt like it went really well, so now they're actually looking for other similar projects around the world and genuinely want to create a
global movement around this idea.
[18:55:07]
And it is a fascinating sort of about face on traditional education, really, where you don't have the teacher telling the children what they
should think, what they should do. It's about putting them in an environment, allowing them to understand it and play with objects, and
listen to them using all of their senses.
And I think actually what really impressed people here is that, she had recognized a jewel in their crown, if you like, and helped shine a light on
that. And they're having inquiries now from all over the world about this project. But she's going to take that idea back and we're going to see her
more on the global stage as a result of what happened here today. But we do have another day tomorrow, Jim.
SCIUTTO: That sounds a little like a Montessori approach to some degree. Max Foster in Italy, thanks so much.
Before we go, we want to show you scenes from the Iranian capital. Huge crowds in Tehran to wish their football players well as they head to the
2026 World Cup. Despite the ongoing war with the US, the Iranian national team is headed to the US, to Los Angeles, in fact, for the competition.
Iran's first match will be against New Zealand on June 15th.
Thanks so much for joining. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, you've been watching THE BRIEF. Please do stay with CN.
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