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The Brief with Jim Sciutto

Spain: At Least 57 People Die In Ceuta Border Rush; Spain: MOST Migrants Who Crossed From Morocco Have Returned; Trump Acknowledges Gaza Disarmament Deal Will Face Hurdles; Officials: U.S. Planning New Iran Strikes As Soon As This Weekend; Anthropic: A.I. Models Hacked Three Companies During Testing; New Russian Campaign Targets Ukrainian Gas Stations; U.S. Justice Dept. Admits Reflecting Pool Project Was Flawed; World-Renowned Mountaineer Missing. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired July 31, 2026 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR, "THE BRIEF": Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, and

you're watching "The Brief."

Just ahead this hour, tens of thousands of migrants who crossed into the Spanish territory of Ceuta have now returned to Morocco. The chaotic scenes

prompting Italy and France to tighten border controls. Ukrainian civilians increasingly targeted by Russian drones, specifically at gas stations. This

as President Trump says he is now considering, reconsidering rather, allowing Ukraine to build Patriot missiles. And the search underway for a

world-renowned mountaineer missing after an avalanche on one of the world's highest mountains.

A tiny piece of North Africa has become a flashpoint in the European migration debate. More migrants tried to cross into the Spanish enclave of

Ceuta today. They were met by soldiers looking to send them back. This after a deadly rush to the border on Thursday. Authorities report at least

57 people have died.

Many crossed by land, overwhelming border guards. Others chose to make a dangerous trip by sea. In all, it is estimated some 50,000 people tried to

enter from Morocco this week. Spain says that most of them have now been returned. Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez is facing a political

crisis. Italy is suspending its border-free Schengen deal with Spain, and France says it will order extra checks along its southern border. Nada

Bashir has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This was the chaotic scene on Ceuta's coast on Thursday as tens of thousands of migrants stormed the

border separating the tiny Spanish territory and Morocco. Thousands are said to have braved the sea in a desperate attempt to reach the enclave's

coastline, some even climbing through barbed wire. Many of them were young men, seen here celebrating. Two hours at sea, he says, pulling his little

brother close.

But among them are also families, women and children seeking a better life in Europe. This man stops in a moment of prayer, relief mixed with

exhaustion. The crossing, while short, is far from an easy feat, and not all were successful. Many are reported to have been killed in the perilous

endeavor, an all-too-familiar fate for migrants searching for salvation across seas.

The reason behind the surge in migrants attempting to illegally cross Ceuta's border is not immediately clear, although Spain's prime minister

has accused human trafficking rings of exploiting a Supreme Court ruling issued in July, which prohibits Spanish authorities from immediately

returning migrants who arrive by sea without due process.

I understand why they come. They're told that there's a future in Spain, that there are jobs here, this young man, a migrant already living in

Spain, says. And the truth is, there are. But when they arrive, they're faced with the harsh reality that they have nothing, and people treat them

as if they were nobodies.

And it is not long before that harsh reality becomes apparent. Thousands of migrants are reported to have already made their way back into Morocco,

according to the Spanish government, some returning through the border crossing under the careful watch of Spanish troops, others crawling through

breached fences along the coast.

Additional troops were deployed to Ceuta, according to Spain's Interior Ministry, to help respond to the crisis. Spain's Prime Minister Pedro

Sanchez vowing on Friday to dedicate additional state resources to guarantee the region's security.

PEDRO SANCHEZ, SPANISH PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Ceuta is a Spanish city, and what happened yesterday deserves our full reproach, our

full condemnation at the strongest possible level of rejection, condemnation, and consideration as deplorable the violation and the attack

on the territorial integrity of a Spanish city, namely the City of Ceuta.

BASHIR (voice-over): But the prime minister is also facing backlash for his long-standing open-arms approach to immigration, allowing migrants access

to all of Europe.

[18:05:00]

His Italian counterpart, Giorgia Meloni, has called for Spain to be expelled from the E.U.'s visa-free travel zone. France's interior minister,

meanwhile, has pledged to strengthen the country's border with Spain.

And while the summer months have long proven a key pressure point in Europe's efforts to secure its borders, this latest crisis is further

galvanizing the right in its hard-line approach to tackling illegal migration.

Nada Bashir, CNN in London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Joining us now is Jeremy Konyndyk, president of Refugees International. Jeremy, good to have you.

JEREMY KONYNDYK, PRESIDENT, REFUGEES INTERNATIONAL: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: So, first, can you tell us why, from your perspective, this happened now and in such great numbers?

KONYNDYK: Well, as your colleague was saying, it's not entirely clear what prompted this. There is some reporting that -- including in The New York

Times earlier today, that Moroccan border authorities were in some ways facilitating this were encouraging people to make a run for it now.

But I think what's interesting is the way in which so many right-wing, anti-immigration voices in Europe immediately pounced on this as validating

their agendas before it was even really clear what was going on. So, you see Giorgia Meloni, who's famously anti-migration, talking about changing

Spain's participation in the Schengen open movement -- free movement agreement.

You know, there were some reports including from the Ukrainian foreign minister that Russian internet bot farms were pushing the imagery of this

on social media to try and stir up dissent within Europe. You know, so it does seem to be that every anti-migration actor is jumping on this to try

and sow division and validate their agendas before we even really know quite what happened here.

SCIUTTO: Well, let me ask you this. So, amplifying it as it happens and after the fact, but are you saying you suspect that there was state actor

involvement prior that, that facilitated this?

KONYNDYK: I'm saying we don't know, but there is some indication including from interviews that The New York Times has done with some of these

migrants that they were being facilitated and encouraged by Moroccan border guards.

It is a little hard to understand how this went from a trickle to 60,000 people crossing in just a matter of days without at least the tacit

cooperation of the Moroccan government. Normally, the Moroccan government would not have allowed this sort of thing to flow out of their borders.

SCIUTTO: Well, in your experience, what has been Morocco's policy as relates to immigration to Europe, including to the Spanish enclave on the

North African continent?

KONYNDYK: There are some precedents for Morocco encouraging outflows or facilitating outflows when they want to put pressure on Spain. It's not

clear that's what happened this time. There's some speculation that perhaps this was prompted by a recent visit by the Spanish prime minister to

Algeria, which is something of a rival of the Moroccan government.

Not -- again I think it's a little too early to say. But we don't have the facts, and I think that is the key thing. It's very hard to say what the

right policy response to this should be before we actually know what the real backstory is and what prompted it. But you don't see any reticence

from the far-right voices in Europe. They are happy to pounce on this and amplify it as much as they can to validate their anti-immigration agenda

before they actually know the facts.

SCIUTTO: Are there weaknesses, in your view, in terms of how Europe controls such migration? Obviously, there's enormous economic incentive,

right, for people to attempt to move north, much as there is here in North America. Are there holes, right? Are there things, in your view, that need

to be addressed? Folks have pointed to a recent court ruling in Spain which limited its use of border rejection rules that would've allowed for

immediate expulsion.

KONYNDYK: Yes. And that's been one of the things that right-wing voices are pointing to as potentially a trigger for this. I think it's important to

underscore none of these people would've been eligible for that policy. That did not apply to new entrants. That only applied to people who had

already come -- you know, who were already resident in Spain.

But more to the point, you know, what Spain is doing here is trying to create some legal pathways to address the fact that, A, there are a lot of

people who want to seek economic opportunity in Europe, and B, Europe's economies actually need a lot of those people.

And I think one of the failings that Europe has had over the past decade is they are not bringing their immigration policy into line with the economic

reality and the population level reality that they face, which is that they need more migrants.

[18:10:00]

And so, if their economy is creating a demand for migrants, but their immigration laws are not allowing that, then it's when you get this kind of

chaos.

SCIUTTO: Listen, it's not dissimilar to what's happened here in the U.S., right? I mean, in fact, there was bipartisan legislation to create legal

pathways, but in the current environment, that's not going anywhere.

But before we go, what is your read of how this is driving politics in Europe right now? Because, as you well know, right-wing parties use this

kind of event like this and just broader discomfort with migration flows to drive -- you know, drive their political fortunes, but also a right-wing

agenda.

KONYNDYK: Yes. Well, one thing we know is that voters anywhere do not like to see chaos on their borders. And so, this sort of imagery, even though,

you know, within a day, virtually all of these people were back in Morocco, this kind of imagery is seized upon by right-wing forces to create this

perception of chaos and push for a fortress Europe sort of mentality.

And again, similar to what we see in the politics here in the United States, that's out of step with the economic needs and it's out of step

with the fact that, you know, the chaos is in part a reflection of a failure to create legal pathways. But that all points in a right-wing

direction politically because they block the pathways, they get the chaos, the chaos in turn enhances their political fortune. It's sort of a self-

licking ice cream cone.

SCIUTTO: Yes. A vicious cycle. Jeremy Konyndyk thanks so much for joining.

KONYNDYK: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: President Donald Trump acknowledging the deal he announced Thursday about disarming Hamas actually has a tough road ahead. Israel

insists it will not withdraw its forces from Gaza before the militant group disarms. Hamas says Israel must uphold its obligations under the October

ceasefire deal to withdraw from the territory and also stop military operations there. Many in Gaza are skeptical this deal will lead to any

real change.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I am not optimistic at all. The war continues. People are devastated. There is no delivery of humanitarian aid

or basic life necessities and everything is completely destroyed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We want to end all this. It has gone on too long. We hope both sides will implement the agreement. We don't

want one side to carry it out while the other reneges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well, here's what President Trump said about making the most important part of the Gaza ceasefire a reality.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Will it go through? It's ups and downs. It's a very complex situation over there. The people are very complex and

difficult. Many cases wonderful and many cases not so wonderful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Kristen Holmes is live at the White House. And, Kristen, I wonder, I mean, we've seen a lot of deals announced by this White House before they

were fully baked, so to speak, Saudi nuclear deal being one of them, including a whole host of trade deals. Is this announcement coming with the

confidence of White House officials that all the parties are signed on or is it more of a wishful event?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: They certainly believe that this is a done deal, but there are a lot of caveats here. I

mean, one of the things to keep in mind is that while we did hear from a senior Hamas official that said that they had reached an agreement to

disarm, there were a litany of things that Israel was going to have to do.

And just to give you some of them, they would have to cease all fire, stop all targeted killings in Gaza, withdraw troops from the so-called yellow

line and allow a surge of humanitarian aid that was consistent with the October ceasefire agreement, as you mentioned.

Now, on the other side, that would have to obviously have Israel's full consent. It is unclear if Israel fully consents to this. And we have had no

real public official statements, particularly from the prime minister. And then just an hour before President Trump's announcement, this official,

this Israeli official kind of downplayed or objected to some of the key components that I just listed out.

So, there are still a lot of questions as to how exactly this would play out. Who would have to do what first? Would Israel have to remove first?

Would they agree to doing that, or would Hamas disarm first? This seems to be, at this point, not a completely done deal. But according to the White

House, these sides have signed off, and they do think it's moving in that direction. We'll obviously have to see.

I mean, Jim, the actual ceasefire on the Israeli-Israel-Gaza war was months and months and months ago. This is the first time we're kind of seeing some

concrete steps come out of that, other than the ceasefire itself. And these were listed out. And this really would be critical. It would be lay the

foundational work for a new government. It would really change the dynamic that we have seen at play for years and years.

But I do think that some of these things often take up much longer than this White House, and particularly this president, believe that they will.

[18:15:00]

SCIUTTO: True statement. Kristen Holmes at the White House. Thank you. Joining us now is CNN global affairs analyst Karim Sadjadpour. Karim,

always good to have you.

KARIM SADJADPOUR, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST AND SENIOR FELLOW, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: Likewise. Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: So, are you confident this is the real deal?

SADJADPOUR: You know, Gaza is such a humanitarian tragedy that you want to applaud people for their efforts to try to make people's lives better. But

no one has ever won money betting on a lasting Israeli-Palestinian peace deal.

In this particular case, there's a big debate about sequencing. The Israelis say, yes, we'll withdraw once Hamas disarms, and Hamas says we'll

disarm once Israel withdraws. I'm reminded of an observation which Henry Kissinger made many years ago.

He said that when he was -- before he went into government, when he was secretary of state, he was a professor at Harvard. And he said before he

went into government, he thought that history was driven by impersonal forces, meaning the individual doesn't really matter profoundly. He said

after he served in government, he reached the opposite conclusion, that the individual profoundly shapes history.

And the reason I bring that up is that I'm skeptical we will see any lasting Israeli-Palestinian peace deals absent different leadership, both

in Israel, with different prime minister, other than Prime Minister Netanyahu, and, likewise, different Palestinian leadership.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, though, because what will not change are national security interests of each party here. And is it possible Israel

will at some point cede control of Gaza or make a judgment that actually we're fine being out of Gaza, not operating there, given the events of

October 7th and so on?

And will Hamas ever truly disarm and say that it could function as a political body without weapons, given its history, present and history?

Those two things, even with different leadership, can you see either side getting over that?

SADJADPOUR: Well, by different leadership, I mean other than Hamas, because I think you're absolutely right that Hamas's entire identity is premised on

fighting Israel. So, I think you would need totally different leadership other than Hamas.

When it comes to Israel, I think the trauma of October 7th still lingers very strongly in Israel, and it probably will be a while before -- you

know, I think that viewing Gaza as a national security threat is probably a consensus view among Israeli political parties.

SCIUTTO: From the U.S. perspective here, this shares something in common with the Iran war, in that it seems that President Trump's calculation is

that he can pressure -- some would say bully -- all sides into submission, right? With Israel, he will often say, they'll do what I say. With Hamas,

he'll say, well, I'll give Israel the OK to pummel them, or perhaps we get involved. Does that dynamic work in this situation?

SADJADPOUR: It hasn't. I mean, in both contexts, Israel-Palestine and the U.S.-Iran, we are talking about decades-long conflicts, which President

Trump would like to quickly conclude. And here, the Kissinger observation about leadership also applies, because Iran's leadership -- well, we

removed the supreme leader, Ayatollah Khamenei was assassinated. You now have empowered this kind of revolutionary faction, which -- their priority

is revenge and fighting the United States, so they're not keen to do a deal anytime soon.

And I was struck by something Maggie Haberman of The New York Times said, which is that the president is actually spending perhaps 70 percent of his

time not thinking about the Iran war, but the reconstruction of the White House.

SCIUTTO: That's quite a different priority. There were other steps, of course, in the ceasefire, one of which is this international stabilization

force. It seems like the commitment so far is for a couple hundred troops from Morocco and Uganda, given the size of -- well, the size of Hamas,

Israeli forces, et cetera. I mean, that's another important ingredient, is it not? Because the Board of Peace was looking for a kind of regional buy-

in, but also regional investment, and not just in dollar form, but in their soldiers. Is that going to get any bigger than that, anytime soon?

SADJADPOUR: Again, it goes back to leadership. When you speak to the potentially largest donors, which are the Gulf leadership, they will say,

listen, we're not going to invest major money, so long as it's Hamas, which is ruling Gaza, and it's Prime Minister Netanyahu. We don't have a lot of

confidence.

And then, likewise, those -- and particularly the Islamic countries that have the potential to send men, to send troops, they don't want to do it if

the prospects for peace, you know, don't look very plausible.

SCIUTTO: Understood. And, of course, they don't want to lose large numbers of forces.

SADJADPOUR: Of course.

SCIUTTO: There's that. Karim Sadjadpour, always good to have you. Thanks so much.

SADJADPOUR: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, it has happened again. Another A.I. firm says that its A.I. models escaped testing environments to attack other companies.

We're going to discuss what appears to be a growing security threat.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:20:00]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. In today's Business Breakout, U.S. stocks finished out a volatile week of trading with across-the-board gains. The NASDAQ was

the best performer of the session despite fresh losses for a number of big chip manufacturers. Amazon shares rallied 15 percent after reporting strong

AI-related cloud revenues. Apple shares, though, tumbled. It says memory chip shortages will continue to weigh on its bottom line.

OpenAI is not the only big tech firm grappling with serious A.I. security issues. Anthropic has now revealed that some of its clawed models hacked

into the computer systems of three firms during testing. The attacks appear to have begun as far back as April. Anthropic's not saying who those models

targeted, but it says the firms have been contacted. That's not all. Reuters is reporting that OpenAI has found evidence that more of its A.I.

agents escaped containment too.

Joining us now, tech journalist Jacob Ward, a CNN contributor, author of "The Loop," and host of "The Rip Current" podcast. Jacob, good to have you.

JACOB WARD, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, TECHNOLOGY JOURNALIST AND HOST, "THE RIP CURRENT" PODCAST: Hi, Jim, great to be with you.

SCIUTTO: All right. So, we already knew about OpenAI. Now, OpenAI says more of its models escaped. Anthropic says it would not have found out about its

own incidents if it didn't learn of the OpenAI stuff. I just wonder, I mean, is this, is it sort of like you look under every rug and you're going

to find escapes like this?

WARD: I mean, it does feel a little reactive, right? This isn't, I think, how either of these companies want to spend the last couple of weeks. I

mean, I think, you know, what we know is that the spirit of software development is you believe that scale will solve your problems. The more

you release of a thing, the more you'll sort of work out the kinks.

And what we're, of course, now discovering is that as these pieces of software have real-world effects, and in this case, a break-in at Hugging

Face, this beloved shared A.I. lab that OpenAI's products attacked a couple of weeks ago, you know, now we're suddenly in a world where I don't think

anybody would sort of take comfort from the idea that we're going to sort of figure this stuff out after the fact.

And what's really interesting, Jim, is that there is, in fact, a protocol at OpenAI that says that once an A.I. that they've developed gets to a

place where it can do what's called a zero-day exploit, that's an unprecedented kind of hack without any human help, then in theory, they're

supposed to stop development on that.

[18:25:00]

And the company says that they've pulled that model down, but they haven't said whether that bright red line has been crossed. And so, it's very

unclear, I think, to everybody watching this, you know, how concerned should we be about this, how concerned are these companies about that, and

to what extent do they actually know how much of this has been going on and how much could go on in the future?

SCIUTTO: I mean, yes, this Anthropic case goes back to April. So, they at least didn't know for several months. Let me ask you this, just for

clarification, because some experts will say, well, this is happening in a testing environment, a so-called sandbox, therefore it is contained. Is

that entirely true?

WARD: Well, this is what these companies are at pains to describe right now, is they say that it's not quite accurate to say that these models got

out onto the open internet, but they did definitely use internet connectivity to go and attack Hugging Face. in this particular case, and it

sounds like many more companies, as we're learning hour by hour here.

And so, you know, it is certainly not the case that these things were simply held on a local network and couldn't go anywhere. They did figure

out how to get out into the world and seek what they were looking for. And so, this is very squishy terminology, and it doesn't exactly make anybody

more comfortable as they take this sort of pains to say, well, it wasn't really the open internet, yes, but it did attack this other company. All of

that, I think, makes everybody a little nervous right now.

SCIUTTO: But let me tell you what also makes me nervous, what you just said, is that the A.I. models figured out how to get out. I mean, is that a

feature or a bug? I mean, is that just, as they get smarter, does that mean they're kind of unlimitable?

WARD: Yes. I mean, it's important, I think, to remember what these things are doing is exactly what these companies have been promising customers for

a long time. A few months ago, there was a creation in the United States called OpenClaw that was essentially this kind of, this bot that you could

download onto your laptop and then just turn it loose on your life. You'd give it a email address, you could give it banking information, and just

let it run wild.

The guy who launched that, and, you know, hundreds of thousands of people potentially used it in their lives, he got hired by OpenAI to build agents

that can go out and do things. I mean, the whole point of agentic A.I., as they call it, is for it to go off and do things without checking in with

you first.

And so, I think feature is the word here. The problem is, in this particular case, right, these were things given the task, not necessarily

of going and hacking anything, but figure out this thing, not, they weren't told to go attack Hugging Face, they were told, figure out this thing, and

they realized, in some way, that going into Hugging Face would give them the answer they wanted.

So, whether it's doing it to Hugging Face, or doing it to make dinner reservations for you, the technology is the same here, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Goodness gracious. All right. Well, let's hope they figure it out. Jacob Ward, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Well, Russia has a deadly new tactic for sowing chaos in Ukraine. The new danger facing Ukrainian civilians and first responders, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto, and here are the international headlines we're watching today.

Spain says most of the 50,000 migrants who crossed into its territory from Morocco this week have now returned. They had poured into a Spanish enclave

in North Africa, triggering a political crisis and prompting Spain's prime minister to rush to the scene himself. The Spanish government says at least

57 migrants died in the chaotic crossing.

Smoke billowing at a U.S. Marine Corps base in California today. One of the most advanced fighter jets in the world crashed and burst into flames at

Miramar Air Station in San Diego. The F-35 stealth aircraft went down just short of the runway. The military says the pilot ejected and was taken to

the hospital. The cause of the crash is under investigation.

FIFA's plan to sell stakes in its competitions to private investors is threatening to tear apart the organization's leadership. The senior adviser

to FIFA president Gianni Infantino has resigned, and FIFA's chief operating officer is condemning the bid to inject private cash into tournaments,

including the World Cup. He says that even if he loses his job, at least he'll be able to sleep at night.

Russia has now found yet another way to terrorize Ukrainian civilians, bombing their gas stations. Since June, there have been hundreds of Russian

attacks on fuel stations across Ukraine. Some Ukrainians believe this is payback for drone strikes on Russian refineries and energy infrastructure.

More now from CNN's Nick Paton Walsh.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Even stopping for gas in Ukraine can now be lethal. More than 200 fuel stations

have been attacked by Russia since June. That's about three a day. In a country where the war has shut down commercial flights, they are a lifeline

with a huge role in a vast country.

The pumps, now a place to listen out for the buzz of drones and know where the bomb shelter is. In Zaporizhzhia, policeman Mikhailo ran in to help

after a drone struck one station, but then he heard a second.

MYKHAILO TSYPLIAKOV, PATROL POLICE OFFICER (through translator): When I heard the drone was already descending. I saw a flash, got up and saw

injuries to my arm, legs. Maybe Russia is doing this to intimidate, to sow fear and create panic.

WALSH: We've verified 30 of the estimated over 200 attacks in June and July. They fall across Ukraine, but most are close to occupied areas, the

cities of Kramatorsk and Kharkiv worst hit. All in reach of Russian drones and intensifying fuel trucks and containers targeted on a simple level,

impeding the war effort by making it hard to get gas, but also sowing fear far away from the front lines. The growing range of Russian attack drones

making one safe areas part of the kill zone.

YAROSLAV STAROVOITENKO, PRESIDENT, OIL AND GAS ASSOCIATION OF UKRAINE (through translator): Gas stations became these key points of refuge as

people tied the war. Then Russia tries to cause an intentional blackout, cutting off electricity and heating to freeze out in the winter. And has

stations became the first facilities to be 100 percent equipped with generators. These were places where people could drink hot tea, fill up

their cars, warm up, and even prepare milk for their babies.

WALSH: Near Kyiv, that hasn't always worked.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): There's always a risk. No one knows where the attack will strike.

[18:35:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I was discharged from the army after being seriously wounded. If a strike comes here, what's the

difference? It didn't kill me on the frontline, so it won't kill me here.

WALSH: But many see this as a Russian response to the fuel crisis and queues imposed in Russia. By Ukrainian drone strikes on refineries, Putin's

escalation inflicting the same back. Russia's elite drone units make a public point of their strikes on Ukraine, releasing a video here of nine

being hit.

The damage is real, unexpected and growing. Another sign absolutely nothing is off limits in Moscow's invasion of choice.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Another reversal on Ukraine from U.S. President Donald Trump. He now says he is not sure about allowing Ukraine to manufacture Patriot

missiles under license. Ukrainian leaders have been asking for that license to build missiles in order to improve their air defenses, desperately short

of air defense missiles. Trump suggested this month at the NATO summit that he was ready to help. At the White House this week, Ukrainian President

Zelensky was hopeful the approval would come to be. But here's what Trump had to say today at his cabinet meeting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: These weapons are incredible. We have to be very careful about letting somebody build them. You have to be very

judicious, but you have to be very careful. Now, we have not agreed to that. We're talking about it. But it's a hard thing to give away that kind

of technology. And I don't think this would ever happen. But, you know, those people that you give that technology, they can someday turn on you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now is Ukrainian Parliament member Halyna Yanchenko. Good to have you back.

HALYNA YANCHENKO, MEMBER OF UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT: Hi, Jim.

SCIUTTO: First of all, I know that right now you're under new air raid warnings there. But first, I want to make sure you're safe where you are.

And please do go if you're not safe.

YANCHENKO: Well, I don't feel really safe. As we are talking, I can hear explosions in the background. And probably some more residential houses

were ruined just when we are talking now. But let's talk about it and let's tell more Americans the truth about what is going on and what U.S. can

actually do now, what American citizens can do, what American president can do. And ask why this assistance is yet -- the assistance that we need so

much is yet not provided.

SCIUTTO: Yes. So, what's your reaction? There was hope when President Trump said just a few days ago, we've agreed to share that technology. And now,

he says no. Do you feel abandoned?

YANCHENKO: I feel confused to tell the truth. Because everyone, it seems that everyone knows, at least in Ukraine, but also everyone else who is

interested in the security and their own security, actually. Everyone knows that the Patriot system is very important for global safety because this is

about an only air defense that can actually tackle Russian ballistic down. As well as everyone knows that there is a very, very limited production of

this Patriot interceptors in the world.

So, basically, they can do about only 60 missiles a month. This is probably the amount that Ukraine needs for three nights to tackle down Russian

ballistics. And by the way, as we are talking, there are more Russian ballistics flying to Ukraine and to Kyiv where I'm talking -- where I am

now.

So, everyone knows that their production is limited. And the opportunity to provide licenses to Ukraine to boost the production is of interest of

Ukraine, but also of U.S. and of global security. Therefore, for me, it's absolutely confusing to see that the decision is still under the question.

Because it's of interest of everyone. Ukraine and U.S. and the world.

[18:40:00]

SCIUTTO: You know, the end of President Trump's comments also caught my ear, because he raised this possibility that if the U.S. were to share the

technology with Ukraine, that someday Ukraine might turn it against the United States. What's your reaction to hear that from President Trump?

YANCHENKO: This is actually a really weird statement, because when we are talking about -- gosh, you can probably also hear the explosions in the

background.

SCIUTTO: Please stay safe.

YANCHENKO: Yes. So, this is what we are also talking about.

SCIUTTO: Of course.

YANCHENKO: Like we are talking about some -- I don't know, some risks that will never happen, but there is risk that is happening right now, like

these minutes. And that is why joint production could be an option, should be an option. It would allow the United States to produce more missiles and

more interceptors, including for its own needs, by the way, because as we said, the production is limited, and the production to actually fulfill the

American needs is also not enough.

SCIUTTO: Are you safe where you are right now? Halyna, are you sure you are safe where you are now?

YANCHENKO: I'm not sure that I'm safe, but it will take me, I don't know, maybe 10 minutes to actually get to the shelter somewhere in the

underground. So, I won't still be able to make it to the shelter. So, we can only pray. Pray God and also pray that the U.S. makes the right

decisions on time.

This is very important for the safety of civilians, of millions of civilians, of dozens of Ukrainian families who are currently under attack

of Russian occupants and Russian missiles.

SCIUTTO: Well, listen --

YANCHENKO: So, the best I can do is not to go to the shelter, but actually talk to you and explain why it is so important. Because another thing that

we in Ukraine, but also a lot of Americans are confused about is not only the license to actually produce more interceptor missiles for the Patriot

system, but also, we don't understand why there is some confusement about opportunity to provide Ukraine opportunity to actually buy more

interceptors for Patriot now.

There is a discussion about procurement of Ukraine and Europe for Ukraine 300 interceptors that Ukraine desperately needs to actually protect

ourselves from Russian ballistic now.

SCIUTTO: Listen, Halyna --

YANCHENKO: This decision is important as we are moving toward the winter, because Russia will simply attack the civilian infrastructure. They will

attack power plants and electricity infrastructure, basically putting millions of Ukrainian families to the mercy of Russian occupants who will

be able to target civilians almost like targets at the shooting range.

SCIUTTO: Well, listen, you're one of those civilians right now, Halyna. So, I want to make sure you get to safety. As always, I appreciate you sharing

the stories of Ukrainians on the ground there. Please stay safe, and I wish you some peace this evening.

YANCHENKO: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: That is life as a Ukrainian under constant Russian barrage.

Well, President Trump repeatedly blamed vandals for damage to Washington's reflecting pool before the Lincoln Memorial. Now, the Justice Department

has admitted, well, that wasn't true, that the cause was actually bad renovation. We'll have the details coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:45:00]

SCIUTTO: This just in to CNN. The U.S. Justice Department has now dropped criminal charges against David Hearn, the former Olympian, that it accused

of damaging the Lincoln Memorial reflecting pool. In a new court filing, the DOJ has admitted that President Trump's $14 million renovation project

itself was flawed. The Trump administration, you'll remember, accused Hearn of vandalism. He maintained he only touched a piece of the pool's lining

that had already detached.

Katelyn Polantz, joins me now. And, Katelyn, in this filing, is the DOJ, is the Trump administration admitting that whole story was false?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Correct. They're admitting, the Justice Department is admitting now, that they know that the

vandalism that they allege David Hearn had taken part in, that they prompted a grand jury to indict him for, that that was not the cause of the

damage to the liner of the reflecting pool. It was because of failures during the process of installing the lining in the reflecting pool.

There are a number of different parts of the federal government that Jeanine Pirro, the U.S. attorney and the prosecutors from her office, are

blaming, essentially, for this mess up, for erroneously prompting the indictment of David Hearn.

One of those groups, her office is saying, is the Department of Interior, that they had not provided the U.S. attorney, the prosecutors, the records

that they needed to provide before Hearn was indicted in July, just before July 4th, and that at the time, the U.S. Park Police and the Department of

Interior were telling the U.S. attorney, the Justice Department, that nearly all of the damage to the reflecting pool was done by vandals,

including people like Hearn. That's obviously not the case.

And now, in this court filing, it's being documented that the installation itself was the problem, and part of the reason it was such a problem was

because this reflecting pool, Trump wanted to have done, finished, looking really good with blue across the bottom by July 4th. They were doing this

work in May and June. There was weather that disrupted things. It was rushed. There were crews that had to be sent over to the White House for

the UFC fight that Trump wanted on the White House lawn, and all of that contributed to the fact that the installation of the reflecting pool liner,

that was the problem here, and that is what caused all of that damage of the liner lifting up in June and July when people like David Hearn went to

look at it there on the National Mall.

SCIUTTO: A rushed job, and it appears a lie. Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much.

Coming up on "The Brief," a major avalanche in Asia, hitting a multinational group of climbers, some of them extremely well-known. We're

going to have the latest on the search efforts coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:50:00]

SCIUTTO: Desperate search and rescue operations are underway in Pakistan after an avalanche struck a group of 10 climbers including world-renowned

mountaineer, Nirmal Purja. They're believed to have been on Broad Peak. That's the 12th tallest mountain in the world. Officials say four bodies

have been discovered so far.

Joining me now Ben Ayers. He's a National Geographic Explorer and a reporter at Outside Inc. Ben good to have you on.

BEN AYERS, EXPLORER, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC, REPORTER, OUTSIDE INC. AND FOUNDER, EVEREST.LIVE: Thanks for having me Jim.

SCIUTTO: So, first let me ask if you can give us the latest as you understand it on rescue and recovery operations.

AYERS: Yes. The latest kind of news came in yesterday evening Pakistan time. Right now, it's a little bit before 5:00 a.m. in Pakistan. So, when

rescue operations concluded because of dark and weather basically they had discovered three -- the remains of three climbers. An American named Sarah

Geis, a Nepali climber named Pur Bahadur and an Omani woman named Mrs. Al Harthy.

Otherwise, the remaining seven climbers have been -- some of them have been spotted by drones. But as of now, nobody's reached the bodies on the

mountain.

SCIUTTO: Can you tell us what you're hearing about conditions on Broad Peak as this happened as the expedition was going up?

AYERS: Yes. It's been a tough year for climbing in the Karakoram. Broad Peak is a part of the Karakoram mountains. And there's a growing interest

in climbing these mountains as people try to follow Nirmal or Nim's porges sort of -- he made it very famous to climb all 14 8,000-meter peaks.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

AYERS: The season is in the summer in Pakistan, but this year it's been particularly snowy and there's been a string of bad weather which has a

double function of making the conditions on the mountains more dangerous but then also putting pressure on expeditions to get to the top before the

season ends and sometimes that can affect decision making on the mountains.

SCIUTTO: Nim, as he was known of course, extremely well-known in climbing circles. You're well connected in those circles. You knew some of the

people on this expedition yourself?

AYERS: Yes. I knew a number of them, and I knew Nim's very well. You know, He -- I would -- I considered him a close friend. So, unfortunately, this

has been a huge blow to the climbing community. It brings up a lot of questions about sort of the growth of the industry and, you know, we've

really lost one of the most iconic climbers of modern times.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And I didn't want to ask that question --

AYERS: Well, but I also want to caveat that we haven't -- we don't have confirmation --

SCIUTTO: Of course.

AYERS: -- you know, that Nim or anyone is deceased. But the tragedy has affected him.

SCIUTTO: We should wait for that. And I didn't want to ask the bigger picture question because it is so early. But given your experience, what is

your level of concern about just how broad, how commercialized the climbing industry has become?

[18:55:00]

AYERS: It's a tricky one. You know, it's -- I have -- you know, there are high levels of concern in the sense that the more people on the mountains,

the more common and the larger these types of accidents will be.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

AYERS: Mountaineering has a lot of inherent risk, and that's some of the appeal to it. But the more people that are drawn into it, the more

accessible it becomes, the more often we'll see these types of tragic events. And of course, that's concerning.

Part of the draw of mountaineering is the freedom of it. I think a lot of people are brought into it because there's a huge level of self-reliance,

and that sort of runs counter to heavy regulations or the type of structures put in place to prevent these things happening. So, I think

unfortunately this is a trend that may continue for some time.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And it's, of course, given the nature, the danger, it's hard to find folks in the industry, in the sport, who haven't experienced or

known someone who's experienced a tragedy. Ben Ayers, our thoughts to you given your ties to some of those involved here and we certainly send out

our thoughts and prayers for safe return if possible. Thank you, Ben.

AYERS: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: And thanks so much to all of you for joining. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay with CNN.

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[19:00:00]

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