Return to Transcripts main page

The Brief with Jim Sciutto

CNN International: Trump: Justices "Not the People I Interviewed"; Opposition Leaders Eye Return to Venezuelan Politics; U.S. Budget Watchdog: Iran War Set to Cause Inflation Spike; Lai's Son Appeals for Father's Release Before Trump-Xi Meeting; Europe on Edge Amid Russian Attacks. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired September 15, 2026 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR, "THE BRIEF": Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, and

you're watching "The Brief."

Just ahead this hour, President Donald Trump lashing out at Supreme Court justices after the Supreme Court blocked him from changing mail voting just

ahead of the midterm election. The push for new elections in Venezuela. I'll speak to opposition leader Leopoldo Lopez about the future of his

country. And my conversation with the son of Hong Kong democracy advocate Jimmy Lai. He will share how his father is doing in prison and his hopes

for his release.

We begin with President Trump attacking his own Supreme Court appointees over the court's decision to block his efforts to restrict voting by mail

less than two months before crucial midterm elections. His executive order would have given the U.S. Postal Service unprecedented power to withhold

potentially millions of mail ballots. The president wrote on Truth Social, the decision has, quote, "Really let our country down." Adding, "These are

not the people I interviewed to serve the United States Supreme Court. They are merely a shell of their original selves."

As is often the case, Justice Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito were dissenters. It's worth noting the president has piled up a series of

significant victories on the emergency docket, as it's known, since he returned to power in 2025. A CNN analysis of cases reveals he has secured a

higher share of wins than his Democratic predecessor. That includes approval to continue building the president's massive ballroom at the White

House and a ban on transgender service members in the military. President Trump has won more than 70 percent of the emergency cases filed by his

Department of Justice during the second term.

Kristen Holmes is at the White House. And Kristen, I want to play what Todd Blanche said, of course, the attorney general, following this decision and

about the administration's plans going forward and ask you a question about what exactly that means. Here's his answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TODD BLANCHE, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We want to make sure that there is safe voting and that there is integrity, free and fair elections, and that

there is one person placing one vote and that that person is eligible to vote.

And so, you saw part of the decision was the timing and that we ran out of time because of the litigation in part. And so, our efforts and President

Trump's efforts to make sure that we have free and fair elections are not going to stop just in November or after -- or thereafter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: I mean, it sounds like he's telegraphing there an effort to challenge, perhaps, the result of elections based on what have often been

debunked claims by this president as advisers of stolen elections or people voting illegally.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're clearly parsing words when it comes to the response from the Supreme Court,

talking about timing, talking about chaos bred by the short amount of time between now and when those elections actually happen.

And I will note, Jim, one of the things we've been reporting on is that election officials were terrified that this was going to go through and

that the Supreme Court wasn't going to reject and it was going to cause an enormous amount of issues with mail-in ballots, particularly when you take

into consideration that in a place like North Carolina those ballots have already gone out.

So, Attorney General Todd Blanche made no secret that they plan on trying to push forward some kind of election reform after this midterm election

with, again, looking at the Supreme Court as part of that decision, being timing, saying, of course, they'd have a longer runway. They did this in

November or shortly after the midterm before the presidential election.

Now, the other thing that was so fascinating to see here was this attorney general giving a press briefing. It's the second press briefing we've had

since Karoline Leavitt, the press secretary, left. The first was Vice President JD Vance. And he was kind of straddling these roles between being

attorney general and being a press secretary.

And he specifically asked about the remarks that President Trump has made, these accusations, these verbal lashings that he has given the Supreme

Court. And he said that President Trump has every right to be frustrated and angry. He said that President Trump has publicly celebrated or showed

appreciation for the Supreme Court when they do rule in his favor, but it's just one branch of government criticizing another branch of government.

[18:05:00]

Of course, there are other questions here as to what this does for the court, for their reputation, for the perception of the court in the

public's eye. One other part of this that he did answer was he was asked specifically as to whether or not all this back-and-forth over mail-in

ballot voting was going to confuse voters. He said he didn't think that voters were paying that much attention. Unclear. I don't think we're going

to know until those mail-in ballots actually go out in all states.

SCIUTTO: Kristen Holmes at the White House, thanks so much.

Speaking of elections, we turn now to Venezuela and the country's political future. The possible return of opposition leader Maria Corina Machado is

gaining fresh attention now that her close collaborator Omar Gonzalez Moreno has ended his own exile from Venezuela. Machado, who, of course, won

the 2025 Nobel Peace Prize, has repeatedly said she intends to return. That would have major implications for Venezuela's pending political transition

and the opposition's role in any future elections.

Joining me now is another member of the opposition, Leopoldo Lopez, former district mayor of Caracas. Leopoldo, good to have you back on the program.

So, first, Leopoldo, I want to ask about progress or plans to hold elections in Venezuela. It's been a number of months since the U.S.

operation to remove Nicolas Maduro. As you've heard, President Trump, he has said in his view Venezuela's not ready for elections. Is it ready? Will

it be ready soon? And do you expect that elections are coming soon?

We're having an audio problem there. Let me ask my team to correct it, or maybe you're muted or just try the mute button. OK. OK. Hold that thought.

We're going to get that fixed and we'll come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: We're talking now about plans for elections in Venezuela. Joining us once again, opposition leader Leopoldo Lopez. We had some audio problems

on our first try. Leopoldo, you hear me OK?

LEOPOLDO LOPEZ, VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION POLITICIAN AND FORMER DISTRICT MAYOR OF CARACAS: I can hear you perfectly, thank you.

[18:10:00]

SCIUTTO: OK. Great. So, I'll ask the question again. President Trump says Venezuela is not yet ready for elections. Delcy Rodriguez says elections

will take place in Venezuela when it's prepared. In your view, is Venezuela ready and prepared for elections? And if not today, when?

LOPEZ: So, the people of Venezuela are ready for elections. And it's been proven. We had an election in 2024 that there was a landslide that Maduro

lost. And then it was stalled. So, the Venezuelan people are not only ready, but are eager to have an election.

However, the institutions to have not just the election, but to have the transition that will come after that election is what needs to be worked

out. And in order to shape that path forward, there has been rounds of negotiation between the National Assembly of 2015 that is being led by the

Democratic opposition and the regime. And the focus is to have a new Supreme Court and a new electoral board that will lay out the timeline for

elections in Venezuela.

So, the institutional process is being negotiated that will require an important change. Having a new Supreme Court is a significant change after

25 years of absolute control of the institutions. And having a new electoral board will be the guarantee that elections take place and that

the results are respected and not stolen in the way they were in 2024.

This week, there is going to be the second round of negotiations. The delegation of the National Assembly of 2015, it's already in Caracas. The

negotiations will focus on continuing the discussion of the Supreme Court and the political warranties for all of the players, not just the

legalization of political parties, but also the qualification of anyone that could be able to run for elections.

SCIUTTO: President Trump has spoken a lot about Venezuela's oil, about how good a deal it is, not just for Venezuela, but for the U.S. Are you

convinced that elections are a priority for the U.S. president? Because he's already talking about repeating the Venezuela model for Iran,

potentially, and in his words, take Iran's oil as well.

LOPEZ: Well, it's been very clear by Marco Rubio, who has been in charge of the policy towards Venezuela, and it's not contradicting President

Trump. But Rubio has said that there is a process for transition and that these institutional changes need to take place. I think it's unsustainable.

It's impossible to think the midterm or the way forward in Venezuela without an election.

Venezuela is not Iran. Venezuela is a country that had democracy. We've been fighting for democracy for 25 years. And it's impossible to think of a

Venezuela in five, 10 years or less, of course, without an election. So, elections will happen. I have no doubt that that is the path that we are

going to take.

We need to continue not just to push for these elections, but to have the adequate institutional framework for when these elections take place. There

can be a peaceful handoff of power. This is very significant and that there can be guarantees for those who participate in the elections.

SCIUTTO: When President Trump speaks about this oil deal that he's negotiated with the current leaders of Venezuela, he speaks of the U.S. in

possession of Venezuelan oil. He talks about the U.S. making a fortune. He talks about the U.S. keeping Venezuelan oil.

Are you comfortable with the outlines of this deal? And are you concerned at all that this is the U.S. in effect appropriating Venezuela's and the

people of Venezuela's natural resources?

LOPEZ: So, let me tell you what I agree with. I agree that Venezuela urgently needs a way forward to promote investment and production in

Venezuela. Venezuela has the largest resource of oil and we are a marginal producer today. Venezuela was producing 3.5 million barrels of oil when

Chavez came to power. Today it's around 1 million and we can be producing way more than that. In order to do that, there needs to be investment. So,

I agree that the reserves underground are worthless. The reserves need to be produced. So, I think that it's important that there is a push forward

to promote investment and production.

With regards to the deal, there are still many things that are unknown. The details of the oil deal are to date unknown in different terms. It's

unknown exactly what the government take is going to be. It's unknown the timeline for this oil deal.

[18:15:00]

So, I hope that all of this information it's made public. So, it can be a transparent deal for the Venezuelan people. But what's important, and I

think that the Venezuelan people are very aware of this, is that we need to produce more energy. We need to produce oil. We need to produce gas.

Venezuela has a huge potential in conventional crudes, in heavy crudes, in natural gas, in alternative energies. But unfortunately, none of that is

being taken to market and to the benefit of the Venezuelan people because of decades of destruction, of mismanagement, and not doing the right thing.

SCIUTTO: Leopoldo Lopez, it's good to hear your voice. And it's nice to have you back on the program. Thanks so much for joining.

LOPEZ: Thank you very much, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, in today's Business Breakout, Wall Street closed lower once again. All three major indices extended their losses, this as the benchmark

10-year U.S. Treasury yield rose to its highest level since 2007, reaching above 5 percent. Oil prices also went up, with Brent crude crossing $108 a

barrel.

The U.S. war on Iran is expected to keep spiking inflation at least into early next year, largely driven by those higher energy costs, this

according to the Congressional Budget Office. In a new report, the CBO says the first five months of the war have cost some $38 billion. That does not

include the price of repairs to damaged U.S. facilities and bases in the region.

Earlier, lawmakers on a House panel grilled Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent about the war, its cost, and the impact on the U.S. economy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. AYANNA PRESSLEY (D-MA): When Donald Trump launched the unnecessary and unconstitutional war with Iran, how long did he say that would last?

SCOTT BESSENT, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: I don't recall.

PRESSLEY I'll jog your memory. Four to five weeks. It's been six months. So, he lied, and we're all paying the cost. Since the war started, gas

prices are up 52 percent. Yes or no, are you aware of that?

BESSENT: Gas prices up --

PRESSLEY: Gas prices are up 52 percent since the war started. Are you aware of this issue? Yes or no?

BESSENT: From what to what? I think that's not a good number.

PRESSLEY: OK, I'm going to take that as a yes. You're playing like you don't know, but you know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well, what are the actual numbers? CNN's David Goldman takes a closer look at Bessent's responses to lawmakers' questions about rising

bond yields, growing U.S. debt, and those higher fuel costs.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID GOLDMAN, CNN BUSINESS SENIOR REPORTER: Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent was on the Hill and had some pretty interesting things to say about

the economy, among them that the United States has the most powerful and the best performing bond market in the world, which is a little bit

surprising to see when yields are at a 19-year high, yes. Since 2007, we haven't seen this kind of rates above 5 percent.

So, that doesn't sound that great. That was the global financial crisis. Well, yes, there is a tremendous amount of interest still in the U.S. bond

market. It's the bastion of safety. But there are certainly some concerns that inflation is going to make people's investments less valuable over

time. They're demanding more yield. Any interest that Scott Bessent has had in lowering yields really hasn't worked. And so, this is something that

we'll have to continue to watch for quite some time.

Another issue, obviously, is the debt, $40 trillion. And President Trump's efforts to pay all adult Americans $5,000 dividend checks is going to add

significantly to that by the tune of $1.3 trillion. So, what did Scott Bessent have to say about that? Well, he said, well, not necessarily. That

wouldn't necessarily add to the debt. It just might mean that there's another way that we can pay for this without adding to inflation or the

debt. I don't know about that. We'll have to continue to watch that as well to see what he's talking about there.

And then the third thing is gas prices. He was asked about, well, isn't it true that gas prices are significantly higher now than they were before the

war? Less than $3 before the war, more than $4 after the war. He said, yes, but it depends on how far back you want to look. Because under Biden,

President Biden had $5 gas. And that is true that we haven't yet hit those highs.

But what about diesel? Because diesel, you and I might not fill up our cars with it, but trucks do. And everything that we buy comes on a truck. Diesel

at a record high. This is significantly higher than we saw in 2022. It was under $4 before the war.

[18:20:00]

So, yes, it depends on how you look and it depends on what you're looking at. So, a lot of back and forth between Congress, Scott Bessent, certainly

not the kind of conversation I think he was looking to have a lot more to say and do about this. Back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Numbers don't lie. Checking some of today's other business headlines, the U.S. Senate has rejected a cryptocurrency bill backed by

President Trump. Four Republicans joined all Senate Democrats voting against. The bill aimed to create a regulatory framework for digital

assets. Crypto companies say that would put them on a more solid legal footing. Democrats and those Republicans said the bill contained ethics

loopholes.

The U.S. Census Bureau says the official poverty rate fell last year to 10.2 percent of the population, the lowest percentage since it began

tracking that measure. The bureau says it amounts to 34.5 million people. The median household income increased to $87,000.

L'Oreal has now become France's most valuable listed company. The cosmetics group surpassed Louis Vuitton owner LVMH as high end luxury companies

remain under pressure. L'Oreal's market capitalization is now $235 billion. Shares of the company are up 5 percent this year. Still to come this hour,

growing security concerns in Europe.

Poland is now shoring up its borders as trains in Ukraine and the civilians on those trains become Russian targets. I'll speak to a survivor of the

attack you're seeing right there on your screen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto, and here are the international headlines we're watching today.

President Donald Trump lashing out at the Supreme Court for blocking his attempt to change mail-in voting rules just ahead of the midterm elections.

The U.S. attorney general said the Trump administration will continue to push for changes to those rules, although he admitted it ran out of time to

impact this election.

[18:25:00]

A Republican lawmaker is pushing to impeach Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. The move by Thomas Massie is purely symbolic, as is an effort by a

Democratic lawmaker, Al Green, to impeach President Trump. However, ahead of what's going to be a seven-week recess, the House is now confronting

dueling impeachment votes for members who will not be in Congress next year and have proven to be somewhat out of the control of their party leaders.

On Capitol Hill, the U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent was questioned about rising bond yields and what they mean about the economy in the U.S.

Scott Bessent appeared before the House Financial Services Committee. Democratic members grilled him on rising oil prices, inflation, and the

growing national debt, all of which have helped push those yields higher. Bessent said the U.S. Treasury's bond buying operation has kept borrowing

costs down.

The U.S. Congressional Executive Commission on China is set to hold a hearing titled "A Son and Daughter's Appeal to Xi Jinping to release their

dad, Jimmy Lai." This comes just ahead of the Chinese leaders' summit with President Trump here in Washington next week.

Lai, who we should note is a British citizen, was a prominent critic of the Chinese Communist Party, then sentenced to 20 years in prison earlier this

year. He was arrested shortly after Beijing imposed Hong Kong's new national security law back in 2020. He was then found guilty of two

national security charges as well as a charge of sedition.

I spoke with his son Sebastian Lai beginning the interview by asking him about his father's declining health behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEBASTIEN LAI, SON OF HONG KONG MEDIA PUBLISHER JIMMY LAI: It just keeps getting worse and worse, as one would expect. He turns 79 at the end of

this year. And by the end of this year, he would have spent six years, all of which in a maximum-security prison, in solitary. So, you know, besides

the very real mental health damage that does to a person, there's a very real physical health damage as well.

And I heard that he now has heart palpitations, heart issues. His nails are falling off, his teeth are rotting. He has trouble even getting up. I mean,

the weather in Hong Kong goes to 30, 40 degrees Celsius in the summers. And he's in a little concrete box, so he more or less bakes in there.

SCIUTTO: Not air-conditioned at all? I mean, it's more than 100 degrees, you know, in terms of Fahrenheit, but there's no air conditioning?

LAI: From my understanding, there isn't.

SCIUTTO: Wow. President Trump raised your father's case directly with Xi Jinping, as you know, during the summit in Beijing. But Trump said that

based on the reaction he got from Xi, that it was going to be a tough one to get him freed. Are you confident that the president will raise your

father's case again?

LAI: I think -- I don't think the president is a man who gives up. And I think, you know, as they say, the hard fights are the ones worth having.

And so, I think the president said in an interview as well that this is something he cares about, that he will keep on raising. So, I am confident

and obviously incredibly grateful for the support that we've received from the president and --

SCIUTTO: Why do you think the Chinese government is so interested in keeping your father behind bars?

LAI: At this point, it's almost irrational. Multiple countries want him out. The president of the United States has stated multiple times in front

of Xi Jinping as well that he wants my father to be freed. Other world leaders have gone over and asked for him to be freed. The G7 issued

statements. Many countries around the world, the European Parliament, the European Union, have called for my father's release.

He's already been in there for almost six years. His health is failing. They had, you know, an incredibly long amount of time to prove his guilt,

given 20 years. But all they've essentially found is that he's guilty of journalism. He's guilty of something that is, you know, at least until very

recently in Hong Kong, was completely legal. A man who has sacrificed everything that he has for liberty, for beliefs that underpin most of the

democracies in the world, or all the democracies in the world.

SCIUTTO: And which did for a long time in Hong Kong. I mean, I live there, and Apple Daily and other newspapers were quite comfortable criticizing the

Chinese government.

LAI: Exactly. And that's what made Hong Kong, this place where many people want to go to.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

LAI: Because you could have those freedoms that were respected. China obviously signed a joint declaration with the United Kingdom promising

these freedoms to be respected.

[18:30:00]

So, at the end of it, they have this man who, for many people around the world, is a symbol of liberty. Is a symbol of the cost of liberty. And is a

reminder of a broken promise by the Chinese government to the United Kingdom, but also to the people of Hong Kong. So, killing him would just be

cruelty. There's no upside, it's all downside from here.

SCIUTTO: When you say killing him, you mean allowing him to die in prison?

LAI: I mean, given the conditions he's in, and given the fact that he's completely innocent, and it's not just my opinion, it's the U.N. Working

Group on Arbitrary Detention, completely objective body, as well as many countries, it is killing him. They're killing innocent men.

SCIUTTO: Your father recently decided not to appeal his conviction, and 20 years sentence. Why? Why did he make that decision?

LAI: Appealing the -- I can't exactly speak on his behalf, but appealing it is essentially trust in the Hong Kong legal system. As a fair legal

system.

SCIUTTO: Right. As a fair legal system.

LAI: Exactly, as a fair legal system.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

LAI: And this is a legal system that's given him multiple sham sentences, you know, including a year, for example, for lighting a candle and saying a

prayer to Tiananmen Square vigil. I think anybody listening to this will know how insane that is. For a lease violation, he got five years, nine

months. And for journalism, he got 20 years. For his refusal to give up his conscience, for his refusal to give up his conscience, for his commitment

to his beliefs.

SCIUTTO: Is it basically the decision not to appeal a realization that if he's going to be freed, it's going to be because President Xi decides to

free him? As a diplomatic gesture, or a humanitarian gesture, or something along those lines?

LAI: I mean, at this point, you know, the truth is the humanitarian gesture wouldn't even be an excuse. It would just be because he is

unfortunately dying. And again, it's a very easy thing for Hong Kong and China to do. To put a 78-year-old man on a plane and send him back to the

U.K., the U.S.

And yes, I think it's just we have no faith in the Hong Kong legal system. I think if there's a -- you know, Hong Kong's not going to go back to what

it used to be with a rule of law. But freeing my father would be a step in the right direction, at least.

SCIUTTO: Your family's already been through so much. You recently got the news that your sister Claire has been diagnosed with cancer.

LAI: Yes. Yes, it's actually my little sister.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

LAI: Yes. It's heartbreaking.

SCIUTTO: Do you hope that the Chinese government, that Xi Jinping might look at that and say, well, that's another reason for a humanitarian

release for your father?

LAI: I would hope so. I mean, look, it's obviously the hardest time in both her life but the life of my parents, you know, having a child go

through this horrible disease. And I think my sister would like nothing more than to just have my father by her side.

SCIUTTO: Does your father know?

LAI: From my understanding, he does. And obviously -- yes.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

LAI: It must be really scary.

SCIUTTO: That's the worst.

LAI: Being there and just --

SCIUTTO: Worst thing for a parent, right, is to know their child is going through suffering.

LAI: Yes, yes, yes. So, you know, I hope that because his health is failing and because, you know, nobody deserves what he's going through,

especially not someone who gave everything he has for the freedom of others, that he will be free, that the president manages to free him.

SCIUTTO: If you could make an appeal directly to Xi Jinping, what would you say to him prior to this summit?

LAI: I would say that what the Hong Kong government is doing to my father is not in anybody's benefit. It's not in benefit of the countries I want to

have, but it's not in benefit of China. It's objectively cruel and irrational. There's no upside in keeping him there. And if he dies, they

would make a martyr out of this man. And for what? Because he criticized the Hong Kong government, advocated for democracy, all of which were

promised under the joint declaration.

[18:35:00]

He's a 78-year-old man. And all he wants is, you know, to be there for his family, hold his daughter's hands, see his grandchildren. I mean, it's not

a lot to ask.

SCIUTTO: Not a lot to ask. You're testifying on the Hill on Wednesday. Do you expect or are you expecting or are you getting support from Congress in

your case?

LAI: We've always been incredibly grateful for the support that we've been getting on an incredibly bipartisan basis. I think it's in the American

spirit that inherently understands that freedom dies with the last person willing to defend it. And so, my father has always gotten a lot of support

in both Congress and Senate and by the president himself. I've just been very grateful for that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Hong Kong's government gave us a familiar response to those comments, calling Jimmy Lai by his birth name. It says, quote, "All cases,

including Lai Chee-ying's case and all other cases on offenses endangering national security are handled strictly on the basis of evidence and in

accordance with the law." Regarding his health and prison conditions, the government said, quote, "The correctional services department has been

ensuring that the custodial environment for persons in custody is safe, humane, appropriate, and healthy in accordance with the law. These include

adequate lighting and good ventilation as well as appropriate and timely medical support."

And about the claim that the sentence is punishment for journalism, authorities wrote, quote, "Over the years the defendants were using

journalism as a guise to commit acts that brought harm to our country and Hong Kong. He had also repeatedly colluded with foreign forces to beg for

sanctions and engaged in hostile activities against the central government and the Hong Kong government." End of the statements. We'll be right back

after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Poland is now beefing up security at its border with Ukraine as concerns spread among many in Europe that Russian aggression will soon

spill far beyond Ukraine. This comes the day after a Russian drone struck a train in Ukraine over the weekend, just moments after a diplomatic train

carrying among the many passengers, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, former CIA Director David Petraeus and others.

[18:40:00]

Hours ago, NATO fighters shot down a drone over Lithuania for the first time. Ukraine blamed a drone on Russia. Joining me now is Clara

Kaluderovic. She was on the train, had to evacuate multiple times as that attack was underway. She's also the co-founder and CEO at Mental Health

Group and a non-resident fellow at the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Center. Clara, good to have you on. Thanks so much for joining.

CLARA KALUDEROVIC, EVACUATED TRAIN AFTER DRONE STRIKE AND NONRESIDENT FELLOW, ATLANTIC COUNCIL'S EURASIA CENTER: Thank you so much for having

me.

SCIUTTO: So, first, I want to ask you about your experience on that train. You said you had to be evacuated multiple times. Just how close did this

strike come?

KALUDEROVIC: The first time we were taken by surprise, it was roughly midnight, and we were at the checkpoint after the Ukrainian border. I've

done this trip many, many times. We all were relaxed, thinking that nothing could happen at this point where we were in Ukraine. And we got an

evacuation notice from our conductor who comes running in and says, get off the train, evacuate. You know, we kind of all get off slowly.

And then we hear several minutes later something in the distance making a loud noise. So, everyone, you know, picked up the pace, ran around the

station. We stood there for about 20 minutes, got back on the train, sat on there for two more hours, had the same thing happen again. And the train

woman runs in, says, evacuate. There is a Shahed nearby. This time we all got off.

And within maybe 30, 40 seconds of us getting off in the roughly minute to get off the train, we saw something hit at the far end of the station,

which the next day, it turns out, was one of the locomotives that was left there. This happened again at 9:00 a.m. the following morning where we're

still in the same train station, stranded. We're once again told to evacuate. And this is, you know, again, a rush of primarily women that are

elderly children and a few of us foreigners that were on this particular train getting off.

And this time we got off and we saw flying over us very low, one of the new Russian Geran 5 drones, and it hit at the far end of the station. And

everyone turns around and you see that kind of infamous video now of everyone running away from the train. So, it was a very, very close call

for everyone that was traveling that day.

SCIUTTO: Listen, more than one strike. Russia said it was targeting just railway infrastructure, but they know who travels on this train. And I'm

sure they knew that there was a major conference taking place in Kyiv, so there were a lot of dignitaries, others, experts like yourself there.

In your view and the view of your contacts in Ukraine, was this a deliberate strike, a deliberate message, a deliberate threat to the people

on that train?

KALUDEROVIC: We all viewed this as a very strong message. As I said, you know, we've all done this train ride many, many times. This is over 30

times for me taking this route. This has not happened before, but we see in a time where Russia is really stepping up the hybrid warfare, the tasks and

the probes of NATO responses.

And, you know, they happened for the first time to hit this particular border crossing area with a train that just passed with, you know, Boris

Johnson, national security advisers from other European countries, and the particular one we were on with other foreigners traveling out as well. All

of us viewed it very loud and clear as a strong message and a test to see what the collective response to it is going to be.

SCIUTTO: You are in regular touch with Ukrainian officials and European officials as well. As Russia quite deliberately expands this hybrid war on

Europe with attacks like the one that you witnessed, you were an eyewitness to. Do you believe, do your contacts believe that Europe, Europe's response

has been strong enough to deter Russia from expanding this war?

KALUDEROVIC: No, frankly, particularly those who are eyewitnesses with me, men who know Russia very well to former CIA station chiefs that have been

stationed there. Immediately, once this happened, we all, you know, kind of sat down once we were able to cross the Polish border and we discussed this

and what we thought was happening.

And our very strong viewpoint is that this is a test to see what the collective response will be. And if it is poor, it is going to lead to

further escalations, further attempts to probe and test, and possibly at some point to try to take more territory and see what will happen. Because

right now the response they see is they still see, you know, F-16s going up to counter drones that Ukraine is able to take down with cheap systems that

they've developed well.

[18:45:00]

So, hopefully, this will lead us to see a more strong response from European allies, from the United States to further work with Ukraine to

pull in their best practices for taking down drones, to technology share, to pull Ukraine into the Eastern Sentry Program that they're working on for

drone defense. All of this is going to lead to a stronger response when Russia continues to test this, because those of us going in and out and

following the Russian historical patterns of this quite closely feel that this is not an isolated incident, and this is not something new. It is a

test to see what our response will be.

SCIUTTO: Yes, not even ancient history, right? Just history of the last several years. The U.S. president has issued, at least I haven't heard even

a blip of protest to these widening attacks on Europe. In your view, does President Putin view that as a pass, in effect, that the U.S. is not going

to get involved in this fight?

KALUDEROVIC: Absolutely. I think especially after we saw, you know, in the last few weeks, the visit from the CIA director to Moscow to have

conversations, which we all speculated were related to, you know, toning down the attacks on NATO countries. And then we see such a big message so

close to traveling dignitaries, including Americans and Europeans. It certainly doesn't seem by accident that this happened.

And I think over the last few weeks, we've continued to see the ramp up on border crossings, on drones accidentally straying into these territories.

Today, there was a threat called in at Warsaw Airport that there was a bomb. It turned out to just be left behind luggage, but somebody did call

it in.

So, you're seeing these upticks of things that are increasing panic, which the Russian side is obviously loving because as they're able to do their

hybrid warfare, they also like the panic and the response that they're getting across Europe.

SCIUTTO: Clara Kaluderovic, thanks so much for sharing your experience and we're glad you're safe.

KALUDEROVIC: Thank you so much. Good to see you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up just after the break, the U.S. military publicly confirming for the first time it has weapons in space. We'll discuss the

significance of that revelation right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Well, it might sound like something out of a sci-fi movie. The U.S. Air Force Secretary confirming the U.S. has now deployed weapons in

space.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TROY MEINK, U.S. AIR FORCE SECRETARY: Today, we continue to ensure we remain ready to meet the challenges of evolving threats wherever they

exist. This is why the United States now has on-orbit space control weapons capable of defending the joint force against hostile adversary action.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: It's a big revelation. Secretary Meink did not elaborate on exactly what kinds of weapons the U.S. has deployed in orbit.

[18:50:00]

CNN has previously reported the Pentagon was closely monitoring tests and satellites carried out by and launched by Russia and China.

For more now, I'm joined by Clayton Swope, Deputy Director of the Aerospace Security Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

Clayton, thanks so much for joining.

CLAYTON SWOPE, AEROSPACE SECURITY PROJECT DEPUTY DIRECTOR, CSIS: Nice to be here.

SCIUTTO: So, I've done a lot of reporting on this, and I know you know the subject well going back years. We've known for years that Russia and China

have tested and deployed a whole host of space weapons, kamikaze satellites, kidnapper satellites, directed energy weapons, et cetera.

Do we know what categories of weapons that the U.S. is deploying now? And are they purely defensive or might they be offensive weapons too?

SWOPE: The disclosure from the secretary of the Air Force is very ambiguous. There's not much information there. We could guess, but it's

really a range of weapons. It could be anything from a satellite that launches a projectile to damage or destroy another satellite. It could be

something like a jammer or a spoofer. It could be even something like a laser, maybe a laser that's meant to dazzle a satellite that's taking

pictures of the Earth. So, there's really a range of things. And we don't know from what the secretary said what we're really talking about when he

says there are weapons on orbit.

SCIUTTO: The worrisome thing is that if you do damage, physical damage to a satellite in orbit, that spoils the space for everybody, right? Because

if you have hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of pieces of that satellite, given collisions at orbital speeds, that makes the runway, as it

were, the orbits uninhabitable for everybody. I mean, is it -- are we at a dangerous inflection point here?

SWOPE: Yes, Jim, that's the rub. When you think about any weapons that you're using in space, things like low Earth orbit, where there are

thousands of satellites, many doing things like providing broadband to people around the world, many things that we take for granted are in orbit,

like GPS systems helping us get from point A to point B.

When you have a weapon that creates debris, you have the potential to make it really difficult to operate any satellites in. So, this is why, in a lot

of ways, the U.S. has been moving away from a notion of weapons that would create debris in space, having a moratorium on testing of weapons that are

launched from Earth that could create debris in orbit.

So, you know, there are reasons to think, well, maybe the U.S. isn't thinking a destructive weapon. Maybe it is something more like a jammer.

It's meant to disrupt. It's not meant to destroy and create that environment that makes it really difficult for other satellites to operate

in.

SCIUTTO: The sad fact is that Russia and China are already doing this, right? And to some degree, as I understand it, North Korea and perhaps

Iran, but not to the degree of Russia and China. Is there any discussion even of a space treaty, right? Because just like cyberspace, you know, it's

the Wild West. I mean, there are no -- I mean, we used to have nuclear weapons treaties, but those are disappearing between the U.S. and Russia.

I mean, one could imagine leaders sitting down and saying, this is bad for all of us, potentially, given the enormous dependencies we have on space

assets, both for military use, but also for civilian use.

SWOPE: Yes. There certainly has been talk, mostly from Russia, mostly from China, about the idea that there could be some kind of treaty that

prohibits or ban broadly space weapons. But at the same time, it's hard to not realize that at least since the 1960s, the Soviet Union was developing

weapons in space, weapons on orbit that would launch projectiles at other satellites and trying to disable and destroy them.

And the Soviet Union and Russia, there are thoughts that they're developing space-based jammers. So, it's hard to see those attempts really as

credible. And I think one thing that has been difficult throughout the history of these efforts to find a way to do arms control in space is

really, how do you define what a weapon is?

You know, in the case of something like a jammer, really a jammer is just any kind of radio that is transmitting. So, you could have an antenna that

is serving a purpose. It is transmitting radio signals. Someone is receiving those signals. But at the same time, that same transmitter could

be used as a jammer. So, you have a situation where there are just dual-use technologies in space. A satellite that is used to remove debris from orbit

or service another satellite, that could be used as a weapon.

So, that definitional challenge has really plagued efforts it's space-armed controlled since really, we started talking about that in the 1980s.

[18:55:00]

You know, what you could see looking forward, though, is nations thinking, well, what are the things that we're trying to prevent that we don't want

anyone to do in space? And maybe kind of we're getting a sense of what that could be now as we look over the horizon.

SCIUTTO: I mean, listen, China, what Space Force calls a kidnapper satellite, China, they say it's just a maintenance satellite. That little

arm there, it's only to do some repairs. Clayton Swope, thanks so much for joining.

SWOPE: No, thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: Finally, tonight, a novel idea in Singapore that aims to turn the page on brain rot. The country has launched a national campaign that pays

people to read. By gamifying the habit, Singapore hopes to encourage citizens to pick up a book. Organizers say reading strengthens attention,

critical thinking and imagination, and keeps people from mindlessly scrolling on their phones. Bookworms beware, however, the pay is minimal.

People need to read 50 days to earn one Singapore dollar, or about 80 U.S. cents. Not sure that would work for my teenagers.

Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:00:00]

END