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Table For Five
Socialist Score More Wins Across America As MAGA Splinters; Book: Trump Said He's More Powerful Than Mao, Stalin, Hitler; Barack Obama Says He Occupies A "Suite" In Trump's Head; Duffy Advices To Have More Kids Instead Of Career, Education Focus. Aired 10-11a ET
Aired June 27, 2026 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:00:33]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Today, socialism is rising.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES CARVILLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: These people hate Democrats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: MAGA is splintering.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, "THE TUCKER CARLSON SHOW": Shut up (BLEEP). I don't take you seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Why? A decade of American politics may be turning upside down. Plus, behind the scenes of the Trump sequel, the president is comparing himself to history's most notorious despots.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does, I think, want to be a Napoleonic type of figure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Also, Barack Obama says Donald Trump can't quit him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, 44TH U.S. PRESIDENT: I obviously, you know, have a room in his head.
STEPHEN JACKSON, HOST " ALL THE SMOKE" PODCAST: Rent free. (END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And a new episode of "Family Matters," why a cabinet member says young people focused on their education and careers have it all wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN DUFFY, SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION: This is the dumbest advice that they could ever get.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Here in studio, Cari Champion, Arthur Aidala, Leigh McGowan and Noah Rothman. It's the weekend. Join the conversation at a Table for Five.
Hi, everyone. I'm Abby Phillip. Are America's politics imploding? Or like "Stranger Things," venturing into the upside down? That's how Axios framed events this past week and this year.
Here are just some of their points. Republicans are engaged in a civil war, as many MAGA true believers say Donald Trump keeps breaking his promises, whether it's Epstein or the war with Iran. American critics of Israel are getting louder from both the left and the right. Both sides of the aisle are fearful of AI and are speaking out against wealth inequality just at the same time that Elon Musk hits a trillionaire status on paper. And the populism movement that helped give rise to Trump and MAGA is now apparently taking over the Democratic Party establishment.
Liberals are in shock after a wave of winds by socialists all across America, whether in mayoral races or in House primaries.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Understand, these people do not like Democrats. Not only are they not Democrats, they wish Democrats poorly.
I'm done. I'm not in a (BLEEP) political party.
REP. JOSH GOTTHEIMER (D-NJ): Socialists are socialists. They should form their own party. They try to crash our party, the Democratic Party.
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): We have literally found ourselves in a situation where we just don't have people who understand the moment and understand what leadership means.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It is one of those moments where it feels like, yes, the -- we're in the shoehorn phase of this thing where all of the plot lines are converging. And it's also at the same time upside down world in which, you know, Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly are throwing Trump under the bus and the Democratic Party is infighting with itself. Is this just where we are 10 years into, you know, this new era of Trump and Trumpism?
LEIGH MCGOWAN, PODCAST HOST, "POLITICSGIRL": I mean, I think the Democratic Party is ripe for this to happen. I honestly think this is exhausting. I think that the people are trying to tell the Democratic establishment, the Democratic leadership, over and over again that they want to have representatives who represent them and not billionaires and not lobbyists and not centrist medal of the aisle people, that they're watching what's happening to their country. They don't like it and they're looking for fighters. So the fighters happen to come from the Democratic socialist team when they are in New York.
If they happen to come from somewhere else when they're in Virginia, then those are the people that people are going to vote for. And I think the Democratic establishment is freaking out, but I don't think the Democratic voter is. I think the Democratic voter is quite excited that we're finally seeing people with a fight.
And I think that it's not far left, this idea that it's far left for us to have some form of universal health care, that's not far left. We just -- we're having the World Cup right now. Every single country in the World Cup has universal health care except us. Like, that's not a far left position. That's a pretty general world position.
It's not far left to be able to say I want to work a job and be able to afford a place to live and food. It's not far left, right, to say that you want to stay home with your baby when they're born and take care of them and have paid family leave and affordable school when they are grown up. That's not far left. That is pretty standard for the rest of the world.
PHILLIP: Well, it's -- sure. But that's -- those are not the positions, I think necessarily being -- causing these to be characterized as far left. It's a lot of the other stuff, you know --
NOAH ROTHMAN, SENIOR WRITER, NATIONAL REVIEW: What other stuff? Like --
PHILLIP: -- let's like eliminate prisons.
ROTHMAN: Let's eliminate prisons. Let's seize -- they're, quote unquote, "let's seize --
PHILLIP: There's a lot of other stuff, frankly, some of it.
ROTHMAN: Yes. Let's say (inaudible) that's -- "let's seize the property from landowners," quote unquote. "Let's eradicate America," quote unquote. "Let's bring violence to America's streets," quote unquote. This is not me just making this up.
[10:05:09]
This is in writing and these are the candidates who are winning elections in this country. And it's not just New York City.
MCGOWAN: No, it's not candidates. You're naming three candidates, but you're particularly -- ROTHMAN: No.
MCGOWAN: -- naming the ones from one candidate.
ROTHMAN: So let's name Chris Rabb who said that Zionists did the Bondi beach massacre. He's in Pennsylvania. Let's do Graham Platner, who has said a lot of things, including the fact that "I am a communist," quote, unquote, in writing. This is a national phenomenon now on the left.
And one of the things that I see now from Democrats, and I love that montage, there are a lot of Democrats who are trying to push back, take their party back. But I see Chris, I see Cory Booker, I see Chris Van Hollen, I see Chris Murphy making their accommodations with their new socialist overlords and saying, listen, this is where the party is going to go. So, yes, if they were going to show any backbone, any instinct towards self-preservation. They would have looked at the DSA when it attacked the Democratic National Committee in November of 2023 violently. Representative from Illinois, Sean Casten said, we were rescued by police and it could have been much worse.
If the Democratic Party had any instinct to self-preservation, they would have said, listen, these people want to do us physical harm. They do not belong in our party. You're comfortable with it? I wouldn't be.
PHILLIP: You know what's interesting -- you know what, you know what --
ROTHMAN: They're coming for you, too.
PHILLIP: -- interesting, I think that the socialism thing for people like you is enough. But clearly the White House and the president don't think it's enough. Here's President Trump on Friday and he's framing this as the biggest threat to the country since its creation. But notice the word that he uses. It's not socialism.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These are not Social Democrats. These are hardcore godless communists. They're godless communists. All communists are godless. They don't believe in God.
This is the most serious threat to our country since its existence, in my opinion, 250 years ago. This is a major threat to our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, let me -- let me --
PHILLIP: I don't know. What is it? I mean, what does it say --
AIDALA: OK.
PHILLIP: -- that is -- have they given up on the socialism thing because --
AIDALA: Well, let me --
PHILLIP: -- socialism is becoming more popular for some Americans?
AIDALA: -- just tell you from a legal point of view, something that really upset me yesterday, that the mayor of the city of New York, Mamdani, said very publicly, very, you know, he made a speech about it. He said, we're not going to adhere to the Supreme Court's ruling. And to show --
PHILLIP: We were on what topic?
AIDALA: On the immigration ruling that came down. I believe it was on Wednesday. Now, I was on with you a couple of weeks ago when they took down Donald Trump name off the Kennedy Center. And I said, that's a beautiful American thing that's happening right now because the executive branch clearly doesn't want it taken down. But the judicial branch said it has to be taken down and they didn't get in their way.
Now you have the executive of New York City saying, I'm not following the law. I'm going to pick and choose which laws I'm going to follow and not follow. And I don't care that the highest court in the land said that these people can no longer stay here. I'm going to allow them to stay here. That's where Trump is correct.
Once we -- once that breaks down because the judiciary has no army. The judiciary has no enforcement power except the faith that we have in the judiciary. So if the executive branch, whether it be the president or the mayor stops adhering to the laws that the Supreme Court of the United States lays down, then that's the beginning of the end.
MCGOWAN: Can I ask you, though, you said that the Supreme Court has no army, the judicial system has no army.
AIDALA: Correct.
MCGOWAN: And they only have worth based on how we feel about them and how much value we give their words. I think my problem is, is that the Supreme Court itself has degraded its own power by appearing to be one arm of a political party rather than a blind justice. And I think it's happen so many times in a row that we're at the point now where people are saying like, where are we? If the Supreme Court itself can override the Constitution, then where are we? And what the Supreme Court --
AIDALA: But we can't override.
PHILLIP: They can't override that.
AIDALA: They can't override the Constitution.
MCGOWAN: Well, it's questionable.
(CROSSTALK) AIDALA: And just say --
MCGOWAN: Questionable if you were watching.
AIDALA: -- I'm saying about 70 percent of the Supreme Court decisions are unanimous. There's just that little -- they're unanimous. Everybody agrees that this was the law and it was misapplied. There's just a part that we read about in the headline. I mean, how many of the face New York?
MCGOWAN: The ones that change all of our rights. The ones that change all of our rights.
ROTHMAN: Yes, yes.
AIDALA: No, no. No the other 70 percent --
MCGOWAN: Yes.
AIDALA: -- change our rights toward where they reinforce us.
MCGOWAN: No, they don't.
AIDALA: But they do.
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Abby, Abby --
MCGOWAN: You're speaking to two women in the table.
CHAMPION: -- can I just -- can I go back to what you're -- what we initially started talking about. And I want to point out something you said that I think is really interesting. These three progressive candidates, what I noticed while researching them is that they all were very clear about one thing, and that was Israel. You talked about what you felt was dangerous, about how they wanted to do different things.
ROTHMAN: I think everybody should be afraid of the attack.
CHAMPION: But however, the -- what the voters want, and that's what the Democrats need to pay attention to, they were very clear about their position on Israel. I'll speak specifically about Brad Lander. He said this, as a Jewish man, I do believe the way that they are handling things in Palestine is incorrect. However, I still want to make sure that I'm here for the Jewish people. It was a yes and.
[10:10:03]
It wasn't an either or, it was a yes and. It's almost like when you want to talk about someone, you don't have to degrade the other person. You can say what you like about one and what you like about the other without picking a side. And he was saying very clearly he hoped that he can bring people together. And I think that if, in fact, this is what the voters are interested in and if this is what they care about Israel, Democrats need to pay attention and be very clear about where they stand and what they want to do, because that is what we saw happen with all of these socialists that people were afraid of. They spoke to people who wanted to hear about that issue in particular.
AIDALA: So your point though, only 7 percent, seven, one, two, three, four, five, six, 7 percent of people who are eligible to vote just voted in the primary in New York. That's disgusting on every level.
PHILLIP: Well, isn't that common in the primaries?
AIDALA: Nuts. No, it's usually a 10 or above. Now it's even -- it was even less. It was 7 percent. I mean, 7 percent. That means 94 percent of people --
CHAMPION: Well, we'll see. We will see.
AIDALA: -- were like, we don't care.
CHAMPION: We will see.
AIDALA: I mean, that's
CHAMPION: That doesn't matter. We will see.
AIDALA: -- the apotheon on a level.
CHAMPION: There's still more time. We still have time.
PHILLIP: Well, yes. And I mean, I think that's an indictment. Not -- I mean, I don't know who exactly it's an indictment of, but it certainly doesn't say much about the incumbent candidates, the establishment candidates.
CHAMPION: I have been there.
PHILLIP: I mean --
CHAMPION: That have been voting about --
PHILLIP: -- everybody is responsible for getting people out to vote.
MCGOWAN: How much of Israel in this country feel like their vote really matters? I think that's also something people have disconnected from policy.
PHILLIP: Yes, fair enough. The Israel issue is a big one, and it's one where both the left and the right are converging on a much more critical stance of the Israeli government and Netanyahu specifically. It's not just the three candidates in New York. There are a lot of people on the right now, including you -- look at the comments made by JD Vance over the last couple of weeks that are widely viewed as Vance taking a tougher stance on Israel in part because he sees the tea leaves on the right, the MAGA base turning, the younger vote -- younger -- MAGA voters turning against Israel in numbers.
ROTHMAN: Yes, I'm skeptical of J.D. Vance's political instincts generally. And that in particular because I don't see. Well, I mean, I love both sides. I'm captain both sides. But what we talk about when we talk about the rights anti-Semitic --
PHILLIP: I didn't say -- I mean --
CHAMPION: Yes.
ROTHMAN: There are. There are. There are.
CHAMPION: She didn't say that.
PHILLIP: Yes. But I'm not --
ROTHMAN: But let's explore that.
PHILLIP: -- I just want to be clear because I think this is a -- these are different things, right? There's anti-Semitism and then there is criticism of Israel. And I think what we're talking about is pretty simple.
ROTHMAN: Yes. (Inaudible) let's put it that. You just had at the outset in that, in the montage. Who is there?
PHILLIP: Yes.
ROTHMAN: Tucker Carlson and Marjorie Taylor Greene. Marjorie Taylor Greene is gone, so is Thomas Massie. Donald Trump is at war occasionally when he wants to be with Tucker Carlson, J.D. Vance isn't, but the president is and the president isn't sapping support from the Republican coalition. Whereas the Democratic Party is electing a lot of people who went to municipal offices, to state level offices, to organizational offices, a lot of whom identify with the DSA. And some of them, including this one woman in Brooklyn who's now a DSA elected official who says you should go check out Henry Ford's the International Jew to a reporter and say, go read -- go get your rabbi if you want to talk to me about this.
This is disgusting stuff. And the Democratic Party needs to confront it.
PHILLIP: Yes. Listen, I -- listen --
ROTHMAN: And Republicans do that.
PHILLIP: -- hold on, I agree with that. But I mean, you have to acknowledge, Noah, I mean, we -- we've shown the polling before, younger Republican voters are shifting in their support away from Israel. If you look at the overall American population, support for Israel has dropped since, since October 7th.
It's not just the Tucker Carlsons and the Marjorie Taylor Greenes and the Megyn Kellys. Listen to JD Vance. He says Israel doesn't have any friends in the world but us, and they need to stop bombing people.
ROTHMAN: This is where I'm questioning his political.
PHILLIP: So I'm just saying, I'm just saying the anti-Semitism piece is one thing, but you can't deny that this is part of the -- this is a growing part of the political for Republicans.
ROTHMAN: It is a universal phenomenon and mania that is cresting across the country. And it's incumbent on all of us address that.
PHILLIP: You refuse to disentangle criticism of Israel from anti- Semitism.
MCGOWAN: But I think -- I think I will say there is that setting --
ROTHMAN: No, no, no, because what we're not -- we're not describing criticism -- we're not describing criticism of Israel when we're saying that the Zionist entity controls the banks.
PHILLIP: That's not what I'm talking about.
ROTHMAN: But that is what you hear from the Democratic socialist America.
MCGOWAN: But you keep growing (ph) --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But that's not -- but that's not -- he's right. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who are responsible of their actions.
MCGOWAN: That's not what she's saying. What she's saying is younger voters are saying, why are we so in bed with Israel? Why do we send billions of dollars?
AIDALA: Because we all need --
MCGOWAN: Why do we send -- can I just -- why do we --
AIDALA: The answers are easy.
MCGOWAN: No, they're not.
ROTHMAN: The answers are silly.
MCGOWAN: Let me -- let me --
ROTHMAN: They're strategic.
MCGOWAN: The answers are not easy. Listen, why are we in bed --
CHAMPION: Answers is right (ph).
MCGOWAN: -- these are younger voters. This is my own perspective. Why are we in bed with a foreign entity where we send them billions of dollars, but we tell our own people we don't have enough? Why are we letting a foreign entity, a foreign country, a foreign nation --
AIDALA: Because --
ROTHMAN: You know why? MCGOWAN: Why are we letting a foreign nation --
ROTHMAN: Because they're the most tactical -- the most tactically capable ally we have in the region.
MCGOWAN: No, we're not. We're not. If this is -- if this was France, if it was Ireland --
ROTHMAN: Which is an ally.
MCGOWAN: -- if it was Canada that was telling --
ROTHMAN: Ally.
MCGOWAN: -- us how we were going to do our foreign policy, people would be like, why are we letting Canada decide our foreign policy.
AIDALA: I know, I know --
MCGOWAN: If we were sending billions of dollars to Ireland --
ROTHMAN: Democratic Party doesn't say that to Canada.
MCGOWAN: -- it would be questionable. And it doesn't -- you don't have to tie --
CHAMPION: She's right.
MCGOWAN: -- anti-Semitism to it. You have to say, why are we allowing a foreign nation to make our decisions?
CHAMPION: You have (inaudible). And that's not fair.
[10:15:00]
MCGOWAN: That's a logical question. It has nothing to do --
PHILLIP: That's enough.
MCGOWAN: -- with anti-Semitism.
AIDALA: Because then the only thing --
ROTHMAN: And to say that Israel makes our decisions for us --
AIDALA: Yes, try this --
MCGOWAN: Why are we -- literally --
CHAMPION: Why are at war with Iran? Why are we at war?
MCGOWAN: -- why are we in war with Iran? Why are we at war?
PHILLIP: OK.
ROTHMAN: Because Iran has killed thousands of Americans. MCGOWAN: No.
PHILLIP: No.
MCGOWAN: Because Benjamin Netanyahu --
PHILLIP: (Inaudible) in the show.
MCGOWAN: -- came to the White House --
PHILLIP: And convince President Trump --
MCGOWAN: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- to go to war.
MCGOWAN: It's in that new bood.
ROTHMAN: Why did the DSA --
PHILLIP: OK.
ROTHMAN: -- hold an --
PHILLIP: All right.
ROTHMAN: -- anti-Israel rally on October 8th --
PHILLIP: All right.
ROTHMAN: -- as the attack was ongoing?
PHILLIP: Noah, Noah, I feel like -- listen, I understand your point, but I'm just -- I just -- I see you pivoting away from the conversation we're having at the table, which is about the -- there's a real policy question about the United States relationship with Israel. And that policy question is not anti-Semitic in nature.
ROTHMAN: And to clarify --
PHILLIP: And so that's what I'm -- so I get --
ROTHMAN: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- like there are vile anti-Semites on the left and on the right. But the conversation that now is in the center of our politics is actually about where do -- what should we be doing in terms of --
ROTHMAN: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- government policy.
ROTHMAN: And to clarify my frustration -- just to clarify my frustration a little bit is that we don't even hear it when we talk about it. The degree to which we say, well, Israel's dictating terms to us in our policy, that's not true. And it arises from (CROSSTALK) --
MCGOWAN: War because of the (inaudible).
ROTHMAN: -- allow me to finish the sentence. It arises from a perception that Americans are controlled by Israelis and Israeli interests and maybe even Israeli money.
MCGOWAN: And that's not a question worth asking?
ROTHMAN: And I wonder where that comes from. And that's not a foreign policy question or a political question. It's pre-political.
PHILLIP: All right. We'll leave that one there.
Next for us, a new book makes startling revelations about the Trump White House, including how he sees himself as more powerful than Hitler, Mao and Stalin. Plus why Barack Obama says that Trump is different to his face and is obsessed with him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:21:22]
PHILLIP: MAGA gets upset when liberals use Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler in the same sentence. But it turns out Trump's been doing that behind the scenes himself in a new book about the second term by Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, the reporters interviewed Trump. And at one point the president showed them a document arguing that he was more powerful than some of the most feared leaders in history.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN SWAN, AUTHOR, "REGIME CHANGE": The people it compared him to, as you mentioned, Mao, Stalin, Hitler. There was no moral dimension to it. It was just expressed in terms of raw power. And he was reading it out to us. He was sitting -- we're sitting across the Oval and he's like, relish it.
He's like Napoleon.
MAGGIE HABERMAN, AUTHOR, "REGIME CHANGE": It was delayed (ph).
SWAN: Wow. You know, and it was -- it's very clear that what he wants to do is reshape, reshape both America but also the world. He does, I think, want to be a Napoleonic type of figure.
JON STEWART, HOST, "THE DAILY SHOW": Has he read the whole book, though? I mean, it doesn't end that great for --
HABERMAN: No.
SWAN: But we're still talking about Napoleon, aren't we?
HABERMAN: But --well, that's true.
(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: Turns out that document that Trump showed those reporters was from Gary Player's golf caddy, not a historian. I think we are all -- Jon Stewart is wondering, huh? Like, I mean, who reads about Hitler and Napoleon and Mao and Stalin and says, you know what, I want to be like them. Who does that?
ROTHMAN: From what I understand about this document, it was like a material comparison of the assets that Trump has available to him, compared historically, and therefore -- look, the guy has totalitarian instincts, authoritarian instincts. He said as much. And the obstacle to that is the Constitution, which is why I'm not especially worried about him assuming the Napoleonic powers. I mean, if anybody remembers before the 2024 campaign, he said we should cancel the Constitution. He literally said those words because that's the obstacle before him.
And it's an immovable obstacle. It's an insurmountable obstacle, which is the genius of our system why I'm reassuring.
PHILLIP: He's also said he wants to cancel elections and he's the head of the executive branch.
AIDALA: And you --
PHILLIP: And they do have quite a lot of power, a lot of things, a lot of miss stuff (ph).
AIDALA: I mean, let me -- just being about human beings, I would have to say that since at least Truman with a nuclear weapon. Every president has had to lie down in bed and assess themselves and be like, wow, I'm the most powerful person or amongst the, I don't know, seven, eight most powerful people who have ever walked to the earth because I have the ability to say, let's blow the whole thing up. I'm sure people self-reflect. The only difference is Donald Trump says it out loud. Other people are more humble.
They do it behind closed doors.
CHAMPION: Yes, but no one in their right mind is going to say, hey, guess what a presidential historian wrote this about me.
AIDALA: Well, that's --
PHILLIP: Yes, but also like --
CHAMPION: And he's a golf caddy.
AIDALA: That's OK.
OK. CHAMPION: So what is that? Let's talk about that.
PHILLIP: I think -- I think you're totally right. But I also think that, yes. I mean, you sit in bed and you're like, there are so many important figures in history. Which ones do I want to be like?
AIDALA: Well --
PHILLIP: Which one?
AIDALA: -- because he did -- he did hang Ronald Reagan's --
PHILLIP: Which one comes to mind?
AIDALA: He did have Ronald Reagan's portrait moved --
PHILLIP: Is it -- I mean --
AIDALA: -- right next to his desk in the Oval Office. So it's obvious who he would like to be like.
PHILLIP: Because they're obviously good guys and bad guys. Why is he so fixated on the bad guys?
AIDALA: Because they did -- they killed a lot of people. They did a lot of bad things. They had a lot of power.
MCGOWAN: Because they were -- they were powerful.
AIDALA: Right. A lot of power.
MCGOWAN: And I do not think Donald Trump lies in bed. And I think he might be one of our only presidents that doesn't lie in bed at night and assess how he's doing. I don't think he's self-critical at all. I don't think he has that about himself. I think that's why he's one of the only presidents that hasn't visibly aged while doing the job.
If you look at every other president --
AIDALA: I'm not sure of that.
MCGOWAN: -- that goes gray because I'm sure it's a lot to take in, he is not. He is having a good old time.
[10:25:00]
CHAMPION: He's having the time of his life.
MCGOWAN: He's starting wars. He can send army men. He can do this. People say yes sir, no sir. They have parts in that book that say that his aide follows him around and tells him nice tweets and shows him nice letters and glowing reviews and things that say, you are all that matters to me. Like, he's thrilled. That's in that book as well, right?
PHILLIP: Yes. This is -- this is Natalie Harp, who's one of his closest advisors. The book also says that Trump thought about putting the --
CHAMPION: Arch de Trump.
PHILLIP: -- yes, the magnificent arch. I don't know what you're supposed to call it. He showed off models to a visitor one day in October, and he puzzled over the details, including whether the arch should include a platform to take the view -- take in the view. Privately, he'd also been asking confidants what he should have on top of the arch. Should it be, he mused, a large replica of his fight, fight, fight fist?
CHAMPION: You know what I think, and I think all of us at this table have to be honest because we're gaslighting people. He is unwell, right? In a lot of ways. Like who sits around and says, what about a large replica of myself? And the only reason why I said arch de Trump, because I just came back from Paris.
PHILLIP: Arch de Trump.
CHAMPION: Yes. And I was just like, it sounds that way to me. This obsession with gold, also in that same article, he literally is walking around with superglue putting gold fixtures around the White House. Like, that's just not something that the president should be doing.
PHILLIP: All right, next for us, Barack Obama says Trump is obsessed with him and he calls out the president for how he acts one-on-one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:31:08]
PHILLIP: Welcome back. Is Donald Trump obsessed with Barack Obama? Well, his predecessor definitely thinks so.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I obviously, you know, have a room in his head.
JACKSON: Rent free. You do everything with grace.
OBAMA: A suite in his -- in his head. When I was president, the last thing I had time to do was worry about what --
JACKSON: Somebody said.
OBAMA: -- somebody said or what the --
JACKSON: Did.
OBAMA: -- my predecessor did.
JACKSON: Yes.
OBAMA: They're gone. I've got work to do.
JACKSON: You locked in.
OBAMA: The idea that I'd be worrying about --
MATT BARNES, HOST "ALL THE SMOKE" PODCAST: Came before.
OBAMA: -- who -- somebody who came before and me trying to measure, you know, like, what's he done today? Look, constantly worrying about that is a strange thing to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The former president went further criticizing Trump for being a different person one-on-one than he is in public.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I believe in face to face. I believe in conversation. So if this, whoever you were talking about was in front of me, which has happened a couple times, he don't talk like that because he knows better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, would you believe me if I told you that there was only one day this week since Monday that Trump has not mentioned --
CHAMPION: I would not believe you --
PHILLIP: -- Barack Obama.
CHAMPION: In fact, I would not.
PHILLIP: OK.
CHAMPION: OK.
PHILLIP: Well, let's play it because here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said you had a guy who was going to do it in a week for about a million dollars.
TRUMP: Well --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's been two months still in a half million dollars.
TRUMP: Yes. OK, ready? Barack Hussein Obama. Have you ever heard of him?
Barack Hussein Obama. Have you heard of him? Have you heard of Barack Hussein Obama?
Barack Hussein Obama. Have you heard of him?
When Barack Hussein Obama did the JCPO, see, if you look at that, Barack Hussein Obama. Have you heard of him?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AIDALA: Well, that's --
CHAMPION: I've heard of Barack Hussein. PHILLIP: I mean --
CHAMPION: That's his thing.
PHILLIP: I mean --
CHAMPION: And the middle name is really -- I mean, it's really toxic (ph).
PHILLIP: He's not beating the allegations at all.
CHAMPION: At all. He is upset. And I think that was interesting. Again, to Barack's point to -- I watched the entire interview with Stack and Matt -- and Matt and I thought that they did a really good job. I think that he did a really good job or did a really good job of not making it about making them feel as if they were important.
He made some really valid points. I am the president of the United States. I should be focused on the job at hand. I should not have any time to be worried about what anyone else did or I shouldn't be spending most of my time trying to undo what someone had done. We've often asked why are they so fixated.
And it's clear it's because he will never be regarded like Barack Obama and he hates it. They live in his mind consistently and he tries to smear their name and who they are and what they've done. And all I know is since they've been out of office, they've been focused on what matters to them and why they care. They don't even have time. In fact, in fact, I'm still talking, in fact, the one time we did see them chatting it up, people were mad at Barack for being friendly with Trump because Trump has been criticizing him the whole time at Carter's funeral. And they were like, what is this?
What are you doing?
ROTHMAN: OK, well, but we all know that that's not true, right?
CHAMPION: OK, give me --
ROTHMAN: I mean, it's --
CHAMPION: -- give me, give me --
ROTHMAN: It's a lie. For those of us who have living memory of 2019. That's how that's been.
CHAMPION: I have no memory.
ROTHMAN: OK, well, here -- here's what happened to those of us who were there.
CHAMPION: That's a lie. What's happen?
ROTHMAN: The president never stopped talking about George W. Bush.
AIDALA: True. ROTHMAN: He drove this car to the dish. We're going to give the keys back to those guys drove it in the ditch.
CHAMPION: I can't remember that.
ROTHMAN: He's talked about him ad nauseam. And the only reason why he didn't have to worry about George W. Bush's criticism is because to George W. Bush's inestimable credit, he was silent throughout the entirety of Barack Obama's presidency.
Listen, Donald Trump has very high self-regard. He's a little inadequate, he is a little insecure, but --
CHAMPION: A little?
ROTHMAN: -- man, if he has -- if he has anybody who has as high self- regard as he is and there's competition in that department, it is Barack Obama.
[10:35:00]
AIDALA: Barack.
MCGOWAN: But listen, he's a reality star. He started as a reality star. He needs a villain, he needs a nemesis, he needs someone to be against. He --
CHAMPION: Life to distract.
MCGOWAN: He has to. It's part of the game. It's part of the show. Like the fact that we do what about -- what about is when Obama spoke about -- but it'll be -- we're talking about what about. I know, but the thing is what we're talking about --
ROTHMAN: (Inaudible).
MCGOWAN: I know, but the thing is what we're talking about is Donald Trump's obsession with Barack Obama. And I think it's --
CHAMPION: He's obsessed.
MCGOWAN: -- it's obsession. And it's -- I think it's a you hate me because you ain't me kind of a situation.
CHAMPION: One thousand percent.
PHILLIP: And speaking of obsessions, you can watch our new streaming show called Confessions and Obsessions, where a group of us reveals some things that we can't stop thinking about and a few things we need to get off our chests. Go to the CNN app to watch now.
Plus up for us next, Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy says that young people should focus on finding love and starting a family. And it's dumb to prioritize careers and education. We'll have that debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [10:40:39]
PHILLIP: For conservatives, family values have long been one of the main talking points of their agenda. But now it's hit a new level as many are lecturing Americans, specifically women, to have more children. The latest is Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy at the D.C. State Fair.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUFFY: Modern culture has told our young people that they shouldn't look for love. They shouldn't have a family. They shouldn't have kids. Instead, focus on their education, focus on their careers, focus on their bank accounts. This is the dumbest advice that they could ever get.
What fills the human heart? What gives us purpose? We should look for love, get married and have lots of kids, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's not quite clear who exactly is preaching not to have families or to find love at all. But many young people who don't have families blame the high cost of living and that they can't afford kids. And might I add that if you are a woman and you're just hoping and praying that, you know, you'll find a man who's going to be loyal to you, and when you have their kids, they're not going to divorce you and you're going to be just fine having never had a job. Good luck to you.
ROTHMAN: I mean --
PHILLIP: OK. It's the 21st century, and women have a right to decide that they want to protect their futures and their children's futures as much as they want to have kids.
ROTHMAN: OK. So, Abby, you just asked the rhetorical question, where are these cultural messages coming from? Right there. You just articulated them. And I guarantee you, we all know people in the -- in the 20s, late 20s, early 30s, who believe they have to be financially established.
PHILLIP: What's wrong with women saying, I need to have a financial underpinning for myself in addition to my husband having that?
ROTHMAN: I didn't say it's wrong.
PHILLIP: What's wrong with that?
ROTHMAN: Secretary Duffy said it's bad advice, and he's correct.
PHILLIP: Why is that bad advice?
ROTHMAN: I know. I will tell you because --
MCGOWAN: We don't know, seriously. ROTHMAN: -- because the early family formation yields better financial outcomes.
PHILLIP: Let me ask you question.
ROTHMAN: And it is consistent across debate (ph).
PHILLIP: Why is this bad advice for women to work?
ROTHMAN: Nobody said that.
AIDALA: He wasn't talking to women. He literally said young people. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Why is it bad advice for women to get an education?
ROTHMAN: Abby, I'm --
MCGOWAN: Listen, when did we start having the government tell us it was a bad idea to get an education and get a job?
ROTHMAN: Nobody said that.
MCGOWAN: That is literally what Sean Duffy said.
AIDALA: He said prioritize. I said prioritize.
MCGOWAN: He just said that.
ROTHMAN: That anxiety, that apprehension when nobody said that is exactly what's stopping --
AIDALA: He said prioritize.
MCGOWAN: Here's the thing, here's the thing, you are both men who will not have to stop their career to have a baby, who will not have to stay home with a baby, who will not have their --
ROTHMAN: My wife made more money than me until my career was established and we both are better off for it.
CHAMPION: You're missing --
MCGOWAN: You are absolutely missing the point.
CHAMPION: You're missing the point.
MCGOWAN: You're -- when someone has to stop --
ROTHMAN: The point is very abstract as opposed to what he said.
PHILLIP: Do you mind me asking --
ROTHMAN: Which is early family --
PHILLIP: Do you mind me asking -- MCGOWAN: Wow. (CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: When did you and your wife -- (CROSSTALK) when did you and your wife have kid? What -- how old were -- was she -- how old were you?
ROTHMAN: I was 30, so she was 28.
PHILLIP: OK. So in other words, she actually established her career for at least what, seven years before she had a child?
ROTHMAN: Yes.
CHAMPION: The opposite of what --
MCGOWAN: And you had money in the bank when you had your children.
PHILLIP: That's the exact opposite --
CHAMPION: -- you suggested.
PHILLIP: Sean Duffy had said that. (CROSSTALK)
AIDALA: Hold on. May we show on Duffy talking to women? I would say the same thing to men. You prioritize your bank account, you prioritize your position in society, not finding a person to share your life with, to grow with, to love, I mean, who's going to go against love? He said you should focus on love and not money.
MCGOWAN: Who's (inaudible) that's love.
AIDALA: He said it. He said your priority should be love.
MCGOWAN: In that -- you guys, in that same speech, he said we shouldn't be having hookup culture. We should be getting married young.
AIDALA: He's right.
MCGOWAN: We should be having --
AIDALA: We should have hookup culture. I agree with him. I agree with him we should have hookup culture.
ROTHMAN: And better outcomes as well as more self-fulfillment. There's nothing wrong with any of what he said.
PHILLIP: So here's -- this is obviously a big hobby horse --
MCGOWAN: Oh my God, this is exhausting.
PHILLIP: -- of a -- right now.
ROTHMAN: Unless you read, there is sub text, an impose things on --
PHILLIP: Katie Miller, Stephen Miller's wife, who just had a baby recently she posted this, Imagine how much propaganda it took to convince women that this is oppressive. Who is she talking about?
CHAMPION: Who is she talking about? Who is she talking to?
PHILLIP: Who is she talking about?
CHAMPION: No one has said that they don't want that. And then they went on to talk about I -- he -- Sean Duffy goes, I have -- I married this woman. Thank you for choosing me. We have nine lovely children. We are so happy.
Who can afford nine children in America today?
AIDALA: I don't know. Justice Scalia --
CHAMPION: And so that is the point --
AIDALA: -- who was a professor in school taking no money.
CHAMPION: But here is my point, he -- you can't tell somebody what they should do with their lives. They have a choice to pick and decide. And so it's free will.
[10:45:00]
AIDALA: My father was dead poor -- dead poor. He went to high school, college and law school.
CHAMPION: It's free -- but Arthur, it doesn't mean -- look, I don't --
AIDALA: And his family had no money.
CHAMPION: Arthur, I --
AIDALA: None, zero.
CHAMPION: -- disagree with you --
MCGOWAN: Is he alive today?
AIDALA: Yes.
CHAMPION: -- but you cannot -- you cannot --
AIDALA: Of course his alive today. His birthday is --
CHAMPION: Arthur.
AIDALA: -- tomorrow, 88 years old.
MCGOWAN: Trying to buy a house.
AIDALA: Eighty-eight years old. He bought a house.
MCGOWAN: Trying to buy.
AIDALA: He -- listen, that's all that about it. He's -- MCGOWAN: Because it is really exited.
AIDALA: We prioritize monetary thing.
MCGOWAN: No, we have to.
PHILLIP: Hold on, hold on, hold on.
MCGOWAN: We have --
PHILLIP: Arthur --
MCGOWAN: We have to prioritize monetary in a world like this.
PHILLIP: -- you understand Arthur and Noah, that it is more expensive to buy a house, have a child, pay for college, pay for law school. What it costs your father, grandfather to go to college is what it costs to buy textbooks now --
CHAMPION: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- for students to go to college. It's a fraction of the cost.
Noah, how many kids do you have?
ROTHMAN: I have two.
PHILLIP: OK. Why don't you have more kids?
ROTHMAN: Because we didn't want more kids.
PHILLIP: Oh. Oh.
ROTHMAN: And it has nothing to do with finance.
PHILLIP: OK.
ROTHMAN: Wait a minute.
PHILLIP: Well, no.
ROTHMAN: Wait a minute.
PHILLIP: I mean, I'm --
ROTHMAN: We're talking about personal and individual choice. Are you shaming me?
PHILLIP: No, I'm not. I actually --
ROTHMAN: How dare you.
MCGOWAN: No, OK.
PHILLIP: No, I applaud you. MCGOWAN: That's your choice.
PHILLIP: I applaud you.
ROTHMAN: What we're saying is --
PHILLIP: But the message --
ROTHMAN: -- that we put all these --
PHILLIP: the message from Sean Duffy is we have nine kids. You should have nine kids, too. Here's Erika Kirk. Here's what she says.
CHAMPION: Nine kids.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIKA KIRK, CEO, TURNING POINT USA: Have more babies than you can afford.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTHMAN: Yes.
PHILLIP: OK. Great. That sounds -- that sounds like a great little bumper sticker. But a lot of people choose to have the number of children that they want to have, just like you guys did, for whatever reason.
ROTHMAN: Yes.
PHILLIP: Sometimes it's because they want to provide a certain life for their kids. Sometimes it's because they themselves can't handle more than two children or more than any children.
MCGOWAN: Can I ask why -- can I ask why --
ROTHMAN: She's looking directly -- let me just respond real quick. What she's saying -- what I think Sean Duffy is saying, and I want to put words in his mouth like we all have been doing, is that if you look at all of life and you say, well, I need the house, I need the education, I need this degree, I need that degree, I need the job, and then I can't have kids. You won't have kids. And that's the problem, is the message that we're sending to everybody is your life needs to be 100 percent intact before you have a child.
MCGOWAN: Let me ask you, though -- let me ask you, though, this is the same question I want to ask. Your party will not help people who have children.
ROTHMAN: I'm an independent.
MCGOWAN: So listen, your party will not help people that will have children. The right wing, the conservative wing. So if I have nine children and I cannot afford them, and I say, I need food stamps, I need WIC, I need some help with this, I need my education system -- CHAMPION: No.
MCGOWAN: -- and my public schools to be good.
AIDALA: They still exist.
MCGOWAN: None of those problems --
AIDALA: They exist.
MCGOWAN: -- all of those, they're all being cut.
AIDALA: They exist.
MCGOWAN: Right now they are cutting from WIC. They just passed it in the House. They're cutting from WIC fruit and vegetables vouchers for pregnant women, breastfeeding women and children under five. So you tell me how many children I'm supposed to have. And I will tell you, Abby, I have one child and I have one child deliberately because we could not afford to have another.
ROTHMAN: You could lower on the -- on the scale.
MCGOWAN: We lived in a city.
ROTHMAN: Have more children --
MCGOWAN: No. They cannot --
ROTHMAN: -- than people higher up --
MCGOWAN: -- because they can't afford birth control and healthcare.
PHILLIP: You know, interestingly data -- interestingly --
ROTHMAN: All the statistics belie this conversation.
PHILLIP: Hold on, hold on, hold on.
ROTHMAN: Yes.
PHILLIP: No, actually, it's an interesting point because that's -- that is actually changing. That increasingly when you look at family formation and how many kids people are having, it's now educated people who are making a lot of money who tend to have more children per family unit than poor kids. It used to be -- it used to be what you're saying, but that is changing partly because teenagers are having fewer children --
ROTHMAN: And (inaudible) property.
PHILLIP: -- partly because -- well, yes, partly because people who are poor now have choices and they don't -- they're not just popping out kids because they have no choice. They are family planning. And now if you're rich, like in New York, this is a huge phenomenon in New York, if you're rich, you can afford to have a lot of kids. And they do. They have three and they have four kids.
Maybe this message is really -- it really is for men.
CHAMPION: It's for men.
PHILLIP: Because men --
AIDALA: I just -- I said that,
CHAMPION: It's for men. This message is for men. Because it's definitely not for women.
PHILLIP: You're right. Maybe -- I mean --
AIDALA: I said they're not --
PHILLIP: -- I'm not sure why Erika Kirk keeps preaching to women about this, but maybe we do need to talk to men.
CHAMPION: It's about --
PHILLIP: Because we've been talking for months about a crisis with young men where they're aimless, they don't know where they're going, they're attaining education at lower rates than women. They're obtaining jobs at lower --
AIDALA: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- rates than women and they're not ready to start families. They --
CHAMPION: That's the conversation to have.
PHILLIP: -- are not ready to serve them.
AIDALA: Because everybody at home. They're still living at home until all day.
CHAMPION: You got it.
AIDALA: Their mom's --
PHILLIP: Also not --
CHAMPION: Friends. Friend. No, no.
AIDALA: Their mother is ironing their underwear.
CHAMPION: But he might be right. He might be honest --
AIDALA: They don't want to leave.
CHAMPION: He might be onto something.
AIDALA: They're living at home with their mom.
PHILLIP: Next for us, the panel's unpopular opinions. What they're not afraid to say out loud.
[10:49:21]
Quick programming note. In a divided country, what does patriotism really mean? Watch a new episode of Craig Ferguson's "American on Purpose," Saturday at 9:00 p.m. on CNN and the next day on the CNN app.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for your unpopular opinions. Arthur, you're up first.
AIDALA: The World Cup. I'm happy it's here. I'm happy the bars are full. I'm happy they're bringing in money. But it's boring.
Unless you --
CHAMPION: Oh my God.
AIDALA: Unless you had got a horse in the race. It's 90 minutes of guys running, running. One second, it's a goal and it's over. I'm bored with it.
CHAMPION: I love it. Sorry, my unpopular opinion just came back from France. It is really hot there if anyone's been paying attention. Sadly, people are actually dying because of this. But I believe that moving forward they need to make it mandatory to have AC.
I know they don't have it there, but it should be a code of conduct or shut your business down because it was unbearable. AC mandatory. A law for that matter.
MCGOWAN: Might be the future of Europe, unfortunately.
[10:55:00]
My unpopular opinion is that Aperol spritzes are disgusting.
CHAMPION: What?
MCGOWAN: I know. Everyone loves them. Everyone loves them. You go to every single bar in the summer and like --
AIDALA: I like.
MCGOWAN: -- would you like an Aperol spritzer? And I'm like, I don't.
AIDALA: I like it.
CHAMPION: I love that.
AIDALA: It's overrated.
MCGOWAN: Yes. I do know all them.
PHILLIP: You know, I think they are overrated.
CHAMPION: Yum.
MCGOWAN: I think they're overrated. Thank you.
PHILLIP: I've told you French 75 is a superior drink. Anyway, go ahead.
ROTHMAN: Very unpopular opinion. Gen X has an inferiority complex. And I came to this on this show because we were talking about the super nanny thing and in that I was total non sequitur was, well, the boomers did it wrong and the millennial doing it wrong. We're awesome. I can't tell you how often I encounter the self-affirmations that I hear from Gen X. And I must conclude that they spend a ton of time thinking about us, we don't spend any time thinking about you.
PHILLIP: Dang. All right. Everyone, thank you very much. And thanks for watching Table for Five. You can catch me every weeknight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern with our NewsNight roundtable.
But in the meantime, CNN coverage continues right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
