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Table For Five
President Trump Proposes Renaming Lake of Ontario to Lake of America in Midst of Trade Dispute with Canada; Country Singer and Songwriter Dolly Parton's Legacy Remembered; Social Media Company Meta Agrees to Pay $18 Billion Lawsuit Settlement and to Implement Safety Measures for Underage Users of Its Platform; Entertainers Jelly Roll and Kacey Musgraves Criticized by Conservatives for Comments about President Trump and Immigration. Aired 10-11a ET.
Aired August 29, 2026 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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[10:00:00]
PHILLIP: Today, Donald Trump sharpens his midterm message.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: We have a gulf and we have a lake. Now all we need is an ocean.
PHILLIP: The president denies reality and goes to war with an ally.
DOUG FORD, ONTARIO PRIME MINISTER: I have a lot of real estate on my ass, so he has a lot of room to kiss my ass.
PHILLIP: Plus, America says goodbye to its sweetheart. Was Dolly Parton the last bipartisan hero?
Also --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That means I've lost an entire Donald Trump.
PHILLIP: MAGA erupts when celebrities use their First Amendment rights but erupts in cheers if the celebrity is on their side.
And the Zuck pays up. Is Meta's mental health settlement a watershed moment, or is the water already too deep?
Here in studio, Kara Swisher, Cari Champion, Denver Riggleman, and Lauren Wright.
It's the weekend. Join the conversation at a "TABLE FOR FIVE".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Hi everyone. I'm Abby Phillip.
Less than 70 days before the midterms and Donald Trump has turned into a stuntman while his presidency takes a juvenile turn. He declares mission accomplished in his war with Iran even though it's clearly not, especially by his own objectives. He ranked himself as the greatest president ever while his approval hits a record low. He continues to throw out tired names for Democrats, from Pee-wee Herman to Alfred E. Neuman, and he's sharing grievance lists -- a grievance list about the party that he actually leads. And he's going to war with one of Americas greatest allies. The president escalated his trade war with Canada, which will no doubt hurt Americans and many American industries. He's even trolling our northern neighbor to the naming Lake Ontario Lake America.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: We have a gulf, and we have a lake. Now all we need is an ocean.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: But what's really interesting here is how hard Canada is fighting back against this. The Canadians admit that they smell weakness with Trump and his current standing inside of America.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELANIE JOLY, CANADIAN MINISTER OF INDUSTRY: We'll always call it Lake Ontario. period.
I really think that, while all these shenanigans are happening, we'll just be smart and we'll be strategic and well fight back.
DOUG FORD, ONTARIO PRIME MINISTER: I'm not going to comment, but he wasn't against that.
And I have a lot of real estate on my ass, so he has a lot of room to kiss my ass.
(LAUGHTER)
FORD: I don't respond to a dictator like President Trump, a bully like President Trump. As I said before, he's the type of guy in school that would take your lunch money one day, take your took (ph) off your head the next day, and then steal your running shoes. But I'm not going to take any advice off a guy that's the king of bankruptcies. And he's actually tariffing his own people, taxing his own people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Canada does seem like they are more than willing to call Trump's bluff. And meanwhile, Trump is just out here playing reindeer games.
KARA SWISHER, PODCAST HOST, "PIVOT" AND "ON": Yes, reindeer games. Yes. Well, we're in the last season of "The Apprentice". I don't know if any of you watched it like I did.
PHILLIP: I feel like every couple of years we feel like we're in the last season. SWISHER: Well, no, it's the last season when the, when the, when the
ratings went down. And so you had to do stunt after stunt. And that's what it is. It's a stunt presidency.
And he, and I think he's entertaining himself more than anything. And then using online quite a bit, he put up, you know, a Dolly Parton meme, all kinds of things. Whatever he can do to garner attention, he's going to keep doing. And these kind of things do take off from a viral point of view, except they're not anymore. That's the issue.
PHILLIP: Not as viral.
SWISHER: No, it's just lost its interest.
PHILLIP: I also think the American people, they're bored of it, because, I mean, I get the argument that this is just a giant troll, right? That like, Trump is the troller in chief, and it's about poking the media. I totally get that. But there is this unintended consequence of, like, the American people actually watching all of this happen and not liking it. And that's not happening at a good time for Republicans.
DENVER RIGGLEMAN, FORMER VIRGINIA REPRESENTATIVE: No. And speaking as a former Republican, it's just chaff. You know, when I was -- somebody asked me the other day, they're like, Denver, how do you, what are the words that you use for the type of trolling that you see going on? And I say, what are the words that you use as a parent, you know, when your three-year-old is playing in their own diaper, right? You get to the point you don't really know how to actually define what's happening with words anymore.
And I think -- I was just in Canada. I've been from, my goodness, I've been from Ottawa, I've been all the way through to Toronto to Vancouver.
[10:05:03]
I was in Canmore and Banff and Nelson and New Denver, because my name is Denver, but I went to New Denver. And I think what you're seeing is they love Americans still. You know, when I was over there, like Denver, you know, how are you guys actually putting up with this? And I said, well, you know, we're really not. And I think it's actually reflected in polling. But I think what you're looking at is really chaff.
The last thing I'll say is this. While this is happening, though, you're looking at the United States Postal Service and you're looking at what's happening with the Supreme Court, and you're looking at what I think is almost an insider threat. You know, you have the president, you know, he has a legitimate access, right, to the voting system, and he's trying to use it for illegitimate solutions. And I think the ambiguity and the chaos that's happening right now, even with voting coming up to the midterms, that's what people should be concentrating on and not all this nonsense with Lake America or whatever he's doing, you know, right now with the kind of stuff. PHILLIP: So a former U.S. trade representative, Ed Gressner, he says
this in "The Wall Street Journal" today, on Friday, "The states that are most reliant on Canada as an export market are often the northern tier states, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and New Hampshire. Canada is trying to show the Republican Party that there's a systemic cost to doing this sort of thing." And if you're paying attention, you also know there are a bunch of competitive races in a lot of those states.
LAUREN A. WRIGHT, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY POLITICAL SCIENTIST: I mean, it's basic economics. I don't like the tariffs. I never have. I think it's bad policy. I don't think it's good conservative policy. I don't think it belongs anywhere in the Republican agenda, especially with an ally. I mean, Ronald Reagan used to talk about this all the time. You don't attack your allies because you're interdependent.
Not to mention it looks so weak because these industries where we think were punishing Canada, we are so dominant on by multiples and multiples. And, you know, I've said it to you before, it's amazing prices are not higher than they are right now. And I do think the only way Trump's getting away with this is because there are other economic metrics, like profitability, productivity that are covering it up. And he can't get away from it, though, because this is his signature policy. He's been campaigning on it for six years, basically.
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. And I don't think it's, I don't think -- I want to go back to what you were saying. I think it's very interesting how Canada is responding. And I think that his shenanigans as they actually said, and something I often --
WRIGHT: "Shenanigans" is an excellent word.
CHAMPION: It's an absolutely excellent word. And when you talked about this is the last season of "The Apprentice," and you remember the ratings going down, I think of something, when people respond in kind to him. For instance, he was like, OK, guess what, the Canada geese can't fly here anymore. Yes. Thank you for your attention to this matter. And then they -- and then the Canada goose account replies, we'll fly wherever the f we want. You know what I mean? Like, we don't have time for your nonsense, sir. We're tired of it.
And I like this idea of people finally saying, enough with the distractions, because no matter what you're talking about, I still can't eat. And guess what? You know why I can't eat? Because everything is contaminated and everything is expensive, and I can't get a job. And you're -- there are 600,000 black women without work. I can go down the list of things. People are no longer interested in his shenanigans.
WRIGHT: And he has done some good things that he's talking about.
CHAMPION: Such as?
WRIGHT: Well, I mean, the biggest prison reform in the first term we've seen in decades.
SWISHER: First term. First term.
WRIGHT: That's fine. I think it counts. I think it's a real important issue. Lowering prices on prescription drugs. Trying to attack the use of fentanyl.
(CROSS TALK)
WRIGHT: I'm just saying, like he has good things --
CHAMPION: No, no, but that's not the point. And the whataboutism doesn't help us get where we need to be, friend. Listen, the whataboutisms --
WRIGHT: Do you think he's the worst president ever?
CHAMPION: I absolutely -- he's up there. He's not the greatest. But we're going to get to that, by the way, we're going to get to that topic eventually.
PHILLIP: But from her perspective, I mean, I think that if you are a Republican, if you're a conservative, then yes, you're -- you are totally right that they could probably come up with a long list of things that they would love to see him tout. But instead, Trump is on this like rerun track and --
SWISHER: Well, it's a what have you done for me lately kind of thing. I mean, I think that's where we are. It doesn't really matter what he did.
WRIGHT: We should apply the same standard to every president.
PHILLIP: Well, let me play. This is what the Manitoba premier, this is how he analyzed what's going on with Trump. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WAB KINEW, MANITOBA CANADA PREMIER: You know, when like a rock band is really over the hill and you see them like in a casino playing some song from like 50 years ago, I think that's the part of Donald Trump's presidency we're at now. Like, he thought he had a real hit, a real golden oldie with the Gulf of Mexico, and he's trying to bring back that. And he's trying to play the hits for his base. But I think everybody here thinks it's a little sad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WRIGHT: They're getting some shots in.
RIGGLEMAN: It's like the David Lee Roth of presidents, you know. But I think also you said something about worst president in history. I think part of me and part of why it's a little bit personal is I saw the data on January 6th. So if you want to actually look at comparing apples to apples for presidents, I think President Trump is out there based on January 6th alone.
WRIGHT: You think he's the worst? RIGGLEMAN: I think he's up there as the worst just based on --
CHAMPION: But why does that matter?
WRIGHT: Because I think that's ridiculous.
CHAMPION: Well, that's not even the conversation.
[10:10:00]
RIGGLEMAN: But I don't think you saw the data, nor would know what actually happened on January 6th.
WRIGHT: I'm just trying to -- I think we should apply a standard where presidents have done some really bad things and some foolish things and some good things. And so I just --
RIGGLEMAN: I think trying to overturn a free and fair election is probably beyond foolish.
WRIGHT: I agree with you. I agree with you.
RIGGLEMAN: And so, and also, and he's still doing that today with the same disinformation paths. When you're talking about mail-in ballots and the things he's trying to do, he's using the exact same arguments. It's a rehash of the same conspiracy theory.
So what are we going to see in 26 or 28? You know, past performance is indicative of future performance, and I think when you see somebody that's that derelict in their duties as a human being with all loss of dignity and what they did on January 6th, I think at least make some top two as worst presidents.
PHILLIP: There's something in there that is important, I think what you're saying, is that Trump is so obsessed with playing the greatest hits, including his lies about elections and all of that stuff. It's really putting Republicans in a bind. They can't move forward with -- yes, I mean, the American people are telling them very clearly. I mean, look at the numbers. I mean, inflation, he is so deep underwater, it's hard to fathom. Negative 48 approval rating on that issue.
But you go down the line, he's so deep underwater. But Trump won't let them pivot. He's hosting this Trump-apalooza convention soon in just a couple of weeks. And Republicans, according to our reporting, are privately questioning if it strikes the right tone amid the electorate's tightening budgets. They're questioning the wisdom of diverting candidates away from their districts right before the election. They're competing events, and the NFL, 9/11. And you know what it's going to be about.
CHAMPION: And he's blaming them.
PHILLIP: It's going to be about all the same stuff that he is unpopular on. SWISHER: Yes, absolutely. I mean, one of the reasons I think he
didn't want to go to the 9/11 anniversary is because he couldn't talk. Right. And which, nobody gives a speech at that thing, which is kind of interesting.
But it's just, you know, he doesn't have any other moves. That's the thing. And when you run around -- and I get your point about some president, we can stack rank presidents all you want. But he's the president we have now, so let's just judge him. Like let's not judge anyone else but what he's doing now. And I think most people would agree that Trump two is a disaster so far.
WRIGHT: Well, he's either a disaster and inept or he's overturning democracy. I listened to Democrats for two years during the last election saying we are going to have a situation with a dictator, and we're going to have complete fascism. And then I also hear Democrats all the time say, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. And so I would like some clear answers about which one --
SWISHER: You can be both. You do know stupid people can overturn a democracy.
WRIGHT: Do you think he has? Do you think we're living in a --
SWISHER: I think it's one of the -- look, when people say to me, you know, this is the worst time ever. I'm always like, Civil War. I'm going to go with the Civil War.
WRIGHT: OK. That's a very good point.
SWISHER: Salem witch trials, or perhaps the Whiskey Rebellion or perhaps McCarthyism. I just don't like being in this situation.
PHILLIP: All right, let's leave it there.
Next for us, after we lost a legend this week, was Dolly Parton the last American country -- the country could actually agree on?
Plus, Jelly Roll and Kacey Musgraves are just the latest celebrities to get a taste of the MAGA cancel culture train after some jokes and a plea for children. We'll discuss.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SINGING)
DOLLY PARTON, SINGER/SONGWRITER: And I will always love you. I will always love you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: In this divided America, it is hard to find anything that all sides can agree on. But the one person who did bring together Americans was lost suddenly at the age of 80. Dolly Parton, who turned her iconic music into a lifetime of philanthropy and generosity of spirit, received praise and condolences from virtually every corner of the country when she passed this week. The president, of course, tried making it about himself, proclaiming that she liked him and posted a fake picture of them together at the White House. So does anyone else in society rise to her level? Is Dolly Parton America's last bipartisan hero?
WRIGHT: I think she's the best example. You know, she was asked about politics all the time. She never commented on it except for gay rights. And she went really hard on that.
SWISHER: And Black Lives Matter.
PHILLIP: And Black Lives Matter.
WRIGHT: Yes. And when she did, she spoke really, really powerfully on those issues. And everyone loved her. I also think we do have McConaughey, anyone?
PHILLIP: No, I think McConaughey is political.
WRIGHT: Yes, no? The Rock?
PHILLIP: I think he's political. OK, so here's a list --
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: OK. All right, this is just some names. You can decide yes or no. Michael J. Fox, Carol Burnett.
SWISHER: Carol Burnett.
PHILLIP: Julie Andrews, LeVar Burton, Dick Van Dyke.
SWISHER: Those are all worthy.
CHAMPION: Michael J. Fox is actually up there.
PHILLIP: Michael J. Fox is probably up there. Celine Dion, maybe?
CHAMPION: I don't know. I don't know, I don't know.
PHILLIP: I didn't know, I didn't know Celine was controversial.
CHAMPION: I like the idea.
WRIGHT: That's a tough group.
CHAMPION: OK, so this sounds, this is obviously coming from my world. But the only reason why I say that because at the end of the day, he, he, he registers for everyone as a hero in some capacity. Even if you didn't like him, I would think of Michael Jordan.
PHILLIP: Oh no, I think he's very controversial.
CHAMPION: You think so? You think he's controversial. PHILLIP: Absolutely.
CHAMPION: OK, because he's --
(CROSS TALK)
PHILLIP: I think he's not quite the Tiger Woods.
SWISHER: Yes.
PHILLIP: In the Tiger Woods -- I think Tiger Woods like 20 years ago you could have said --
[10:20:01]
CHAMPION: No, no, no. Tiger Woods was never --
PHILLIP: But I think that Michael, I think Michael is his skill is not under controversy. But I think that he --
CHAMPION: Michael Jordan never denied --
PHILLIP: -- is more controversial.
CHAMPION: And I think that you would have a hard time with, especially asking black people, how do you feel about Tiger Woods? He almost denied his ethnicity, if not denied it completely, and made it clear that he wanted to be separated from black people. He would always let that be known.
Michael Jordan never did that. He also said, yes, Republicans buy sneakers, too. But he came across more about as a business decision, not about because he didn't, you know, he wants to ingratiate himself with some other, you know, some other race. I felt like he was very neutral. I'm about my money.
SWISHER: But not Dolly Parton level.
CHAMPION: Not Dolly Parton.
PHILLIP: It's hard to be at Dolly's level.
SWISHER: Let me make an argument.
PHILLIP: By the way, show us your shirt.
CHAMPION: Yes, OK.
PHILLIP: Show us Dolly.
SWISHER: What would Dolly do?
PHILLIP: Yes.
CHAMPION: What would Dolly do? SWISHER: What would Dolly do? I got this at Dollywood, which I love,
by the way. I recommend everyone go there, because you go into that place and you have rednecks, you have gays, for sure, you got the lesbians, you got conservatives, you got liberals all getting along when you walk through that butterfly door. And then when you come out, it's war again. It's crazy.
(LAUGHTER)
CHAMPION: Yes. No, you're right, you're right.
SWISHER: But let me make an argument. Guess who, guess who the hero to replace Dolly is? It's going to be Dolly. She is -- her legacy and the feelings about her, I think are going to go on for a very long time. I think a lot of people woke up the day after she died and thought, enough of this. We're sick of hating each other. Let's try to be -- what would Dolly do?
PHILLIP: Let me. Can I play a little Dolly? This is what she said in 2019 about politics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOLLY PARTON, SINGER/SONGWRITER: I don't do politics. I have too many fans on both sides of the fence. Of course, I have my opinion about everything, but I learned years ago to keep your mouth shut about things.
I wanted to say, let's pray for the president. Why don't we pray for the president if we're having all these problems? Let's just, you know, why don't we just pray for Mr. President? You know, it's like I wanted to say that, but I thought, no, keep your damn mouth shut. That won't work either.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: You know, what strikes me is that her philosophy was not total avoidance. I think that would be a bad way to describe it. It was actually unapologetic in her embrace of everyone. And the reason I say that is because, for example, she said this -- you alluded to this on Black Lives Matter. She said, "I understand people having to make themselves known and felt and seen," she said. "And of course, Black Lives Matter. Do we think our little white asses are the only ones that matter? No."
(LAUGHTER)
SWISHER: But what about her vaccines, vaccines?
PHILLIP: She got vaccinated on camera. She was not afraid to say, I think this is the right thing to do. And nobody dared challenge Dolly on that stuff.
WRIGHT: If she did say pray for the president, though, I do think people would have hated her for that.
PHILLIP: I don't think anybody dares challenge her. And she understood her power in that sense.
SWISHER: Let me -- oh, go ahead, go ahead.
RIGGLEMAN: I was going to say, you know, you said Dick Van Dyke, I want to ask everybody here. I don't think anybody under 50 could fit that actual profile of being --
CHAMPION: One-hundred percent.
RIGGLEMAN: It's very difficult. I was trying to think of anybody under 50, right? Somebody like old and weathered, you know. But I don't know why I did that. But I mean, I think but, but I think -- but the other thing I was thinking about Dolly Parton. My grandfather was, I mean, very conservative. But if you said anything bad about her, regardless of her political leanings, and he only died in 2015, you know, at 81, he was very young, grandpa. He was 36 when I was born. I know I'm very young. But anyhow, but if you said anything bad about Dolly, I think he would fight you. I literally think he would fight you.
CHAMPION: She said -- this is what we all connect. She was unapologetic about seeing everyone's humanity. And she did it, and it wasn't so much about what she was saying. Yes, that was powerful, but it was the way in which she said it. I watched that Barbara Walters interview. Barbara was like, you don't have to dress like that. You don't have to. She's like, well, no, I like it like that. She was like, I like --
(CROSS TALK)
CHAMPION: But it was intentional.
SWISHER: Here's what I say. I just interviewed someone today who made the really good point. We did a whole Dolly show, of course, because I love her. I love her so.
(LAUGHTER)
SWISHER: And one of the things she said is she took a lot of issues that are now at 43 volume and took them down to where they belong, with vaccines or Black Lives Matter or whatever. And she also lived, instead of talking about it, she acted on it. She helped these marching bands, these black marching bands. She funded an area with the money she made from the Whitney Houston recording, the Moderna money she gave. She just did.
PHILLIP: The books.
SWISHER: And she didn't talk about it.
CHAMPION: She did it.
SWISHER: And that's what, that's what I think is powerful. And then made it sensible.
WRIGHT: Also, the unreal talent. RIGGLEMAN: You know what I set up to do today? I would have said
Jelly Roll, but I think that passed.
PHILLIP: Well, speaking of Jelly Roll, we'll talk about that soon.
CHAMPION: We'll get there.
PHILLIP: Next for us, it's being called a landmark moment for social media addiction. But are Meta's changes and cash enough to help with the mental health crisis?
[10:25:00]
We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Welcome back. Is social media about to get safer for kids? Meta reaching an $18 billion settlement with states over how it platforms -- its platforms contributed to a youth mental health crisis. Among the changes Meta has agreed to is a two-hour daily time limit across Facebook and Instagram for kids ages 13 to 17. No late night access and limits on notifications during school hours. Meta will, like will turn off like comment accounts by default and extreme makeup beauty filters.
[10:30:03]
And it's worth noting that $18 billion is just a drop in the bucket for this $2 trillion company. A defense litigator called the settlement a homerun for Mark Zuckerberg. So the question is, is this a watershed moment on this issue, or is it too little, too late? Kara?
SWISHER: I don't think it is. I don't think it's a homerun for him. This is a big amount. This is a large amount. It's not enough, and they certainly should have done all these things on their own without having to be forced to. And of course, the press release was, why doesn't everybody else do this? If they were after they were forced --
PHILLIP: I've seen the ads.
SWISHER: Give me a break. Give me a break. They're also the biggest. So let's stop. Let's stop playing games.
I think it's just the beginning of the cigarette moment for this company. Theres more lawsuits right on the back end of this. And they're going to go on and on and on about product liability. And that's where it's going.
PHILLIP: Is it fair to put all of the onus on Meta?
SWISHER: They're the biggest by far.
PHILLIP: That YouTube and now TikTok, and I think to a much lesser degree, Pinterest. CHAMPION: I agree. I don't think it's fair, but I don't like that
they said, hold on, and we'll also add five more billion dollars if everybody else joins in and also admits fault. They know exactly what they're doing. Handle -- stay in your yard. Don't worry about what we're doing over here, because everyone will follow suit, because they are the biggest as you pointed out. But that's a really big moment. So what do you think happens next? That's what I'm like --
SWISHER: I think they'll be more and more product liability and copyright lawsuits all over the place. And then perhaps our government officials will actually do something about it and create guidelines and regulations of which there are zero today to do some things around privacy, around algorithmic transparency and everything else.
PHILLIP: So let me just play this. This is a mom whose daughter was struggling with depression and anxiety, and she took her own life in 2020. And she's saying it ain't over for her or probably for not a lot of families.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LORI SCHOTT, CO-FOUNDER, PARENTS RISE!: We have a lot of work to do in holding all these social media companies accountable and also heading to D.C. and our state capitals to get universal safety protocols in place. Meta isn't doing this out of the goodness of their heart. They're doing it because they were drug into a court of law and forced into this situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RIGGLEMAN: It's brutal what happens to kids, but I'm going to probably take a little bit of an opposite view on this, that it's going to -- it's going to get worse.
PHILLIP: Because of the changes?
RIGGLEMAN: Not just because of the changes, because now it's so easy to build your own platforms encrypted. And it's also easy to actually push it. So we did a -- I did a skunkworks, an R&D with my A.I. company. We were able to build a complete social media platform in about three days, protected, nonbrittle, able to go, go, go. Not only that, it was very easy to algorithmically target.
And the reason I did that is I could actually make a medical platform where you actually had real medical data, and then that skunkworks turned into building -- how fast could we actually build a complete social media platform?
Here's the other thing. People talk about Facebook. What you don't talk about is Discord or any of the specific channels that any teenager can make right now through vibe coding or any type of technology. What happens is it gets pushed under. And right now, technology is so robust, tokenization is so robust, A.I. is so robust, all of this, that this is nothing, this is nothing. I -- and it scares the hell out of me. Not that I think -- SWISHER: I think that we as a society say our kids should not be interacting with synthetic beings, that we as a society say -- we passed laws on cigarettes, we passed laws on drinking. Guess what? Teens drink and they smoke.
WRIGHT: Do you think the research is there yet, Kara?
SWISHER: Yes, 100 percent. Actually, oddly enough --
WRIGHT: I don't. I don't. I've seen the studies. I don't.
PHILLIP: But in terms of the impact on -- OK, the impact on girls in particular, self-image, depression, eating disorders, I'm not deep in the research, but it seems to me that there's a lot of evidence that these algorithms exacerbate, intentionally exacerbate those things because -- not necessarily because Meta wants those things to be very prominent, but because the algorithm is, is juicing addiction. And addiction is what fuels those things, particularly in girls.
SWISHER: And it's just not just -- let me say, here's what I do think. It's enough of a link that we should start to study it and see what's going on.
WRIGHT: Yes, it's really serious to study it.
SWISHER: Let me just say, I just saw, I saw the new social reckoning movie yesterday. It's coming out October 5th.
WRIGHT: I want to see it.
SWISHER: It's not good for Mark. Let me just tell you. And I think it makes a convincing case, because here we have, it's datacenters. It's what's happening with A.I. It's these incredibly rich people grabbing all the goodies. There is an anger towards tech building and building.
WRIGHT: But that's not causal evidence that the tech companies are causing the very real mental health problems we have in our society.
SWISHER: So lets study it. Let's have laws. Let's change it.
PHILLIP: What if they're not causing it, but they're exacerbating it?
WRIGHT: Well, that's a very different claim. You know, I've seen.
PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, but it's still -- I mean, that seems like a valid claim to me.
WRIGHT: Theres no randomization. You know, it's like the rollout of Facebook across college campuses. Let's observe it. Let's look at people who are already depressed and then put them on Facebook and take them off Facebook.
[10:35:03]
There are studies with like one to 200 people. It is not there to be punishing these companies at the level we are and just breaking them up based on Elizabeth Warren's whims.
SWISHER: It's not Elizabeth Warren.
PHILLIP: Cand I just ask. Let me ask one more thing on that, to that point. I actually totally buy what you're saying. But I guess to me, Meta knowing how to fix it --
CHAMPION: Knowingly.
PHILLIP: Like, they're, they are, they're ready. Like they're like, OK, were going to put these limitations on, we're going to do this, we're going to do that. So why wait until you're sued to do the right thing?
CHAMPION: Correct.
PHILLIP: If you know that this can be done?
SWISHER: -- for this particular company and all of them is what they're doing. I agree with you. They know inside of Facebook what was happening. They did know. Those Frances Haugen documents, if those were just the beginning of them, they have an idea. So why can't we know, just like we know with cigarettes or twinkies or anything else? What do they know and what effect does it have?
WRIGHT: Because there was much higher quality research.
PHILLIP: I'm curious, just really quick, Denver. The A.I. anger is not unrelated to this conversation. People are pissed off at these tech guys who are becoming trillionaires off of the backs of regular people. And that's going to be a huge force.
RIGGLEMAN: The thing is, once you build rules, right, and once you have supervised learning, and then when you have ones and zeros in code, what I try to tell people is ones and zeros do not have feelings. Algorithmic targeting or the clicks or what you're doing is just based on that thing. There's no feeling behind it. That's what's so dangerous about it.
And I think, I think there has to be some kind of -- it's almost, I get it. I actually, as somebody who came, you know, who leaned to the right, right, especially for freedom, you're like, well, come on. Right. But when you're looking at tech and when you're in the tech and you actually see it and what it can do and how it can actually turn things very, very quickly, you learn.
PHILLIP: All right, next for us, two country stars are now enemies of MAGA after some pretty innocent comments from both of them here. How Jelly Roll responded to the trolls.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:41:50]
PHILLIP: Criticism for thee, but not for me. MAGA added two names to its cancel culture list this week, Jelly Roll for telling jokes while filling in for Jimmy Kimmel on late night television.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JELLY ROLL, GRAMMY AWARD WINNING SINGER AND SONGWRITER: In the last few years, I've lost 300 pounds. That means I've lost an entire Donald Trump.
(APPLAUSE)
JELLL ROLL: And lets be honest, based on his approval ratings, it seems like most of the country wants to do the same thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SWISHER: That's a good one.
PHILLIP: Despite Trump's history of fat jokes about other people, a Florida congressman was so mad about this that he said that the singer is not welcome in the panhandle anymore, calling him a token country star the libs enjoy.
Another, Kacey Musgraves, the country star, she asked fans to donate to a nonprofit that provides legal aid to immigrant children whose parents, she said, have been deported unfairly. And her message said this, quote, "It's not a political thing. These kids need help." A FOX News MAGA commentator was among the critics hitting back, asking, what's an unfair deportation?
But the "shut up and dribble" crowd this week loved when Enes Kantor trolled women's sports. They called him a legend and courageous and brave for showing up at a WNBA game to protest trans athletes in sports. So, I mean, why can't people speak their mind?
WRIGHT: They can. They're going to lose fans and lose money. I think music is different than sports. You need to sell albums and tickets. But you know, they probably already calculated that and they're probably going to be fine. These are huge stars. And yes, you alienate people when you say things.
SWISHER: So, but, here's the thing, anti-woke people are the most woke people in existence right now. Like every accusation is a confession.
WRIGHT: Yes. I think we should be super consistent.
SWISHER: Consistent, absolutely. And you're like, they're just, like -- frankly, that was a pretty good joke by Jelly Roll. And I'm not the most enormous fan of his. But he should be able to make jokes and have, you know, that's what Elon, that's the reason Elon bought Twitter is because nobody could do a joke anymore.
PHILLIP: And that wasn't a political joke. It was just a fat joke.
SWISHER: It was funny. It was a good joke.
PHILLIP: And the fat joke you might not like. But I mean, it is in the, you know, pantheon of jokes that you could do.
CHAMPION: I just don't know. We are at a -- I'm just thinking bigger picture here. I was having this conversation with a colleague of mine, and she was -- and she's also in sports. And she says, you know, I think people think I'm toxic because I make -- I have very strong opinions about things that everyone has a strong opinion about. But if it was more so conservative, I'd be OK.
I don't like that we live in a world where you can say, shut up and dribble or shut up and sing, but you can't say, hey Enes Kanter, sit your ass down. You're ridiculous and you're making a big issue --
(CROSS TALK)
CHAMPION: No, but no. I don't think most people I don't think most people --
PHILLIP: I think praising him and yes, and criticizing Kacey Musgraves is --
CHAMPION: Why is it -- why are they praising him and saying and saying what he's saying is amazing and then having a problem with what Jelly Roll said? Nothing.
WRIGHT: I mean, at Princeton, trust me, I've got conservative opinions. They are not popular. I think it depends where you are.
CHAMPION: In the world of sports --
WHITFIELD: OK.
CHAMPION: -- I am telling you, there are more people agreeing with Enes in terms of men saying he's just trying to protect women.
WRIGHT: That's telling.
[10:45:00]
CHAMPION: And no it's not telling. It's ridiculous because it's not an issue.
WRIGHT: OK.
RIGGLEMAN: You know, ones and zeros don't have feelings.
(LAUGHTER)
RIGGLEMAN: And there's a lot of money --
PHILLIP: Say it again.
RIGGLEMAN: Theres a lot of money --
SWISHER: But you can program them to.
(LAUGHTER) RIGGLEMAN: Yes. But there's -- I'd love to have that discussion with you.
But again, it's algorithmic targeting and clicks and making money. Really it's always follow the money when you're talking about people actually trying to, you know, to troll or they're trying to say, oh my gosh, you know, Jelly Roll is awful.
PHILLIP: Jelly Roll has actually said positive things about Trump in the past. But he responded to some of his criticism. He talked about just the common divide that -- the common things that people have in common, despite all the political divides. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JELLY ROLL, GRAMMY AWARD WINNING SINGER AND SONGWRITER: Human dignity isn't Republican or democrat. Compassion isn't leftwing, and mercy isn't rightwing.
My father, Buddy DeFord, God rest his soul, was a blue backed Democrat and his brother was a red hat Republican. I said, dad, how are you and your brother so tight when you all didn't agree about anything? And he looked at me and said, son, we agreed about hundreds of things. We only didn't agree about a few things. And we were not going to let the few things we didn't agree about define our entire relationship.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SWISHER: Back to Dolly.
(LAUGHTER)
SWISHER: Everything goes back to Dolly.
PHILLIP: Yes. And I mean, look, he's totally right. Millions of Americans are living that reality every single day. And it's only among, like, the loudest voices on social media and in politics where that is an incomprehensible idea.
Next for us, the panel is going to give us their unpopular opinions.
But first, a quick programing note. The 2010s produced some of sports biggest stars, Simone Biles, LeBron James led the way. Watch the final episode of "Decades in Sports" Sunday at 9:00 p.m. on CNN, and the next day on the CNN app.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:51:37]
PHILLIP: We are back, and it's time for your unpopular opinions. Kara Swisher, you're up.
SWISHER: I shall go first. I know everyone loves "I Will Always Love You" and "9 to 5".
PHILLIP: Yes.
SWISHER: All of them are amazing. And every single one of Dolly songs. "Here You Come Again." Those are the most popular, and they're occupying the top 10 and 20 lists of the Billboard 100 right now. It's crazy how much.
But I'm going to argue that her finest songs are not those. It's on an album she did in 1968, speaking of politics, called "Just Because I'm a Woman." And that that one song was a song to her husband, "Just Because I'm a Woman." "You make mistakes. I can too. And I should be able to make them. And I should be able not to have to worry about it just because I'm a woman." It was a big feminist statement at the time in 1968. And at the same time on that album, one of my favorite songs is called "The Bridge." It's about an unwed mother who might commit suicide because of this baby she has with a guy she met on a bridge. It goes on. It's very goth, southern gothic.
But I have to tell you, there are -- you should plumb into the Dolly Parton oeuvre, as I have. There are so many amazing songs that aren't the popular ones, and I would recommend everybody do it, because she's an astonishing -- besides being an incredible entrepreneur, her songwriting is astonishing. We should celebrate her for that.
PHILLIP: Totally, I totally agree. That's maybe, maybe not so unpopular. But yes, I get it.
SWISHER: Everyone loves "I Will Always Love You." Amazing song.
CHAMPION: That's true, that's true.
OK, so my unpopular opinion, looking directly into the camera, is that I believe Stephen A. Smith is a man of his word. Many people have said to me he just bloviates. He's not very honest. He promises he'll show up and then he doesn't show up. Most recently, he has decided to do a live debate with me and my colleague on our podcast because we have had, for the last year or so, some really intense issues, public issues. You can Google them and see that we did not get along with one another, although we did work with each other at one time. And I'm hoping that we can make peace or not.
SWISHER: Because you think he's a man of his word.
CHAMPION: I think he is a man of his word and he will show up.
SWISHER: I believe I was the one saying --
CHAMPION: Yes, and I said to you, no.
SWISHER: No, no, no.
CHAMPION: Not him.
PHILLIP: Kara says I want that smoke to Cari champion. I want to be there.
CHAMPION: You are moderating. It is a done deal. (LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: I'll be there. I'll see you next week.
CHAMPION: Thank you.
PHILLIP: All right, Denver?
RIGGLEMAN: This feels like a bit of a vibe change.
WRIGHT: Oh, no. You have no idea what mine is.
RIGGLEMAN: I feel -- OK. OK, because I feel a little bad here. So I got bit by a tick.
PHILLIP: Oh, no.
RIGGLEMAN: So I got alpha-gal syndrome. So I can eat no mammal meat for the last two, two-and-a-half years.
PHILLIP: You are kidding.
RIGGLEMAN: I'm not kidding. And you can tell how much better I look, right? You've seen me, Abby. So anyway, so.
PHILLIP: I've never a met a person that actually --
RIGGLEMAN: I have alpha-gal. But I think, everybody talks about I just want a steak or I want a pork loin. What I think is we need to make scrapple great again. I love scrapple, and I think when you have pork head meat, I think when you have liver and kidneys, when you build, when you take the skin and the meat off the rest of the bones, and you also have snout, a little bit of snout in there, and you put a little bit of cornmeal, I think people are really missing scrapple. And I would like to tell -- one of my unpopular opinions. I think scrapple really is the American food group. We need to be back -- bring back into the American consciousness.
SWISHER: You're channeling my grandmother, who has been dead a long time.
(LAUGHTER)
RIGGLEMAN: I love scrapple. I mean, scrapple and eggs, scrapple Swiss cheese sandwich.
WRIGHT: With eggs is the only thing I've heard of.
RIGGLEMAN: It's wonderful.
WRIGHT: OK, I'm going to try this. All right, this is totally a negative. Paper planners.
PHILLIP: Oh yes.
WRIGHT: Listen, guys, feast your eyes. [10:55:01]
SWISHER: How analog.
WRIGHT: This is how I roll. And I think they're superior. And look, you can see like the whole month. Come on, come on, you guys.
SWISHER: I'm with you.
PHILLIP: Honestly, I am with you. I just wish I would stop forgetting it.
CHAMPION: Yes. That's the thing. You've got to bring it with you. That's the thing.
SWISHER: You got to bring it --
PHILLIP: There was a time in my life when, like, that was how I ran my whole life.
WRIGHT: A little pen, you hook it on.
PHILLIP: And it worked. I was so much more organized.
RIGGLEMAN: Do you do your calendar over scrapple?
CHAMPION: I was going to say, Abby, can we go back to scrapple?
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: We are out of time.
SWISHER: Awful, awful, and awful.
PHILLIP: OK, everyone, thank you very much for being here. Thanks for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE". And you can catch me every weeknight at 10:00 p.m. eastern with our Newsnight roundtable. But in the meantime, CNNs coverage continues right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
