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The Story Is with Elex Michaelson
NASA Astronaut and Russian Cosmonauts Return to Earth; Zelenskyy Shots Down Surrendering Land to Russia; Calls Grow to Release Video of Double-Tap Strike on Boat; Viewers Drawn to Steamy Sports Series "Heated Rivalry;" Texas Rep. Jasmine Crockett Launches Senate Bid; Newsom Again Urges Federal Funding for Fire Survivors; 'The Many Lives of Tupac Shakur' Revealed in New Biography. Aired 12- 1a ET
Aired December 09, 2025 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[00:00:19]
ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Elex Michaelson live in Los Angeles.
THE STORY IS coming home.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: THE STORY IS, breaking news. At any moment we're expecting American astronauts to return to earth after months in space. We'll show it to you live.
THE STORY IS illegal strike? I sit down with Senator Tim Kaine to discuss recent strike in the Caribbean and what he wants Congress to do next.
THE STORY IS Tupac Shakur. Jeff Pearlman's new best-selling book sheds new light on his life and death. He's here live.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're an awesome player to watch.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
MICHAELSON: THE STORY IS "Heated Rivalry." The hottest new show on HBO is a steamy gay romance. With us director and creator Jacob Tierney.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from Los Angeles, THE STORY IS with Elex Michaelson.
MICHAELSON: And welcome to THE STORY IS I'm Elex Michaelson.
Happening right now, these are live pictures from Kazakhstan. We are expecting NASA astronaut Jonny Kim and two Russian cosmonauts to land at any moment. They have been in space for 245 days. They're parachuting in. When that happens, which we expect to happen about two or three minutes from now, we will bring it to you live.
In the meantime, I want to get in some other news. Ukraine's president is holding firm to his country's red line. That is impossible, legally and morally, to surrender Ukrainian territory to Russia as part of a U.S. backed peace deal. Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who has the backing of European allies on that, met with his British, French and German counterparts in London to discuss the, quote, "sensitive issues" in the Trump administration's peace plan.
Those include security guarantees and territorial concessions. European leaders say it's important that a peace deal benefits Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRIEDRICH MERZ, GERMAN CHANCELLOR: I'm skeptical about some of the details which we are seeing in the documents coming from U.S. side, but we have to talk about it. That's why we are here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Zelenskyy says the U.S. has not yet reached an agreement on the Donbas region, one of Moscow's focal points. Russia has insisted that Ukraine give up territory that it still controls, and that was part of the Trump administration's original 28-point peace proposal. Ukraine's president also traveled to Brussels to speak with NATO and E.U. leaders. He says it is critical that Europe and the U.S. work together to pressure Russian president Putin to end the war, and he says he will send a revised peace proposal to the U.S. on Tuesday.
Meanwhile, Japan's prime minister says at least 30 people are injured after a massive 7.5 magnitude earthquake hit the country late Monday night. Look at that video. U.S. Geological Survey reports it struck about 70 kilometers or 44 miles off Japan's northeast coast. Japan's meteorological agency recorded tsunami waves nearly a meter tall in some ports. About 90,000 people were evacuated from their homes due to fears that those waves could become dangerous.
Videos coming in from all over Japan showing the moment that that earthquake hit, though no major damage has been reported, which is pretty amazing. Officials warn an even stronger quake could follow.
We take you back now live to Kazakhstan, where we are awaiting crew members of the Soyuz MS-27 to touch down on earth again. They have been waiting for this moment for 245 days. They've orbited the earth 3,920 times. That's about 104 million miles. And we are waiting to see this touchdown. We may be able to hear some of NASA's communication. Let's listen in.
All right. Not quite yet. So this is the first flight for Kim. And so you can only imagine how anxious his family members are to see him again after 245 days away. He will leave this area eventually after, hopefully, we see a safe landing in a few moments, and then be taken to -- eventually to Houston after, you know, some time to get himself sort of medically reintegrated back into gravity, amongst other things as well, as we watch this.
[00:05:02] And, you know, this comes at a time where we have seen so much conflict potentially between the U.S. and Russia on different geopolitical issues, we were just talking about Ukraine, but a reminder that the U.S. is largely reliant on Russia for some of this travel, and that the landing is not happening in Florida, but the landing is happening in Kazakhstan. And, you know, that is part of this story as well. Let's listen in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's to the left. The landing coordinates, 47, 22, 69, 43. I see it. Turn to the right. (INAUDIBLE) 429. To the rescue aircraft. Second to one.
MICHAELSON: So they're running a couple minutes --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Houston, although we did not see the landing itself, the search and recovery forces called out landing coordinates. And from that we have informed the flight director here in Mission Control that the SOYUZ MS-27 has, in fact, landed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 522 close by.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The approximate landing time, 11:03 and 30 seconds p.m. Central Time, 12:03 and 30 seconds a.m. Eastern Time. 10:03 and 30 seconds a.m. at the landing site. So we'll call it the landing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 429.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And now the search and recovery forces and the Russian MI-8 helicopters will be moving into position to begin the extraction of the crew once they have ascertained that the vehicle has no hazardous gases. Once again, Soyuz MS-27 has landed. It was a nominal entry.
MICHAELSON: So, yes. If you were wondering where were they, so was I. We were supposed to land a few minutes ago. Now we learned that they did not do it on camera. It will be interesting to see hopefully some images of them as we progress throughout the night. But the good most important news there it is a safe landing after, again, eight months in space and we're eager to see them soon.
Now we want to move on to some other news. The latest fallout from the U.S. Military's deadly and controversial double tap strike on an alleged drug boat. Top congressional Republicans and Democrats now say they want to review the unedited video of the follow-up strike that killed two survivors back in September. Nine people died in that initial strike.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): I think it's really important that this video be made public.
KRISTEN WELKER, "MEET THE PRESS" HOST: OK. Do you think that the video should be released in full to the American public as President Trump has said he would support?
SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): So I personally don't -- I don't have any problem with it.
REP. ADAM SMITH (D-WA): They ought to release the video. If they release the video, then everything that the Republicans are saying will clearly be portrayed to be completely false.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Should it be released?
SEN. JOHN CURTIS (R-UT): I think if you're going to err, in my opinion, you err on the side of transparency, the American people, they like to make decisions, too, based on facts, not just on what we tell them. And the more we can give them that information, the more comfortable they're going to feel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: President Trump is contradicting himself a bit on this. Last week, he said he had no problem with the Pentagon releasing the strike video. But now he insists he never said that. A claim pretty easily disproven.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. President, you said you would have no problem with releasing the full video of that strike on September 2nd off the coast of Venezuela. Secretary Hegseth now says --
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I didn't say that. You said that. I didn't say that. This is ABC fake news.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Will you release video of that strike so that the American people can see for themselves what happened?
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TRUMP: I don't know what they have, but whatever they have we'd certainly release. No problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: President Trump says he'll let Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth decide on the video, and Hegseth is under mounting pressure to release it. A measure tucked into the annual defense policy bill would limit his travel expense budget, unless he lets the House and Senate Armed Services Committees see the video.
Sources say Hegseth, along with secretary of state and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, are expected to brief the so-called Gang of Eight in the coming day. That is the bipartisan group of congressional leaders who are up on national security and classified intelligence matters and help shape policy. By the way, they have already seen the video.
Hegseth, by the way, was here in Southern California this weekend. He was the keynote speaker at the Reagan National Defense Forum at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley. I was out there covering this. Hegseth defended those recent attacks which killed what the Trump administration calls narco-terrorists.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: If you're working for a designated terrorist organization and you bring drugs to this country in a boat, we will find you and we will sink you. President Trump can and will take decisive military action as he sees fit to defend our nation's interests.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Also at that conference, Senator Tim Kaine, Democrat from Virginia, who was part of a panel moderated by CNN's Oren Liebermann. He also sat down with me one-on-one from the library's grounds.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: Senator, great to see you. Welcome to THE STORY IS.
SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): Thank you, Elex.
MICHAELSON: So we just heard from the defense secretary who was defending this double strike, saying that he left the room. But basically they did nothing wrong and we would do it over again.
KAINE: Right.
MICHAELSON: What's your response to that?
KAINE: Well, one, there was a little odd aspect to that. He said he left the room, but then somebody came and talked to him about it and he said, that's good. And it was like, wait, was that before the second strike or after? So now I'm confused.
But, you know, here's the issue, Elex. These strikes, the entire operation have been plagued with serious legal questions from the very beginning. The chief legal adviser of Southern Command raised legal questions about them in August. The head of Southern Command, a multi- star admiral, was forced to retire when he raised questions about legality. And one of our allies, the U.K., has stopped sharing intelligence with us before the questions about legality.
And that was before the second strike. When the second strike news broke, I'll give you an example. Former Virginia governor Jim Gilmore, who's a Republican, who was an Army intelligence officer in Europe, who was President Trump's ambassador to the Organization for Security Cooperation in Europe, yesterday he said, if this is war, this is a war crime. And if it was not war, this is murder. What that means --
MICHAELSON: Do you agree with that?
KAINE: I believe it was an illegal strike. I believe the whole set of strikes have not -- are not lawful because they've not been authorized by Congress, and they are not the kind of military actions that a president can take without congressional authorization. But here's what I really believe because I do have colleagues who see it differently than me. The Senate Armed Services Committee and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee have not had a single public hearing about this.
We're 95 days in about 90 people have been killed and two dozen strikes. There has not been a single public hearing. I know a lot of classified information that causes me concerns about the legality, about the strategy, about the targeting criteria. But I can't talk about them with you. I can't talk about them with Virginians, even Virginians who have family members deployed in the region.
It's time for the committees to pull a hat out of the sand and actually have public hearings about whether this is a good strategy or not.
MICHAELSON: President Trump said, I'm good with releasing the video. Secretary Hegseth says we're reviewing it and wouldn't commit to actually releasing it. What's -- I mean, you've seen the video?
KAINE: No, I have not. The video has only been shown to eight members of Congress. You have to be the chairman or the ranking member of a key committee. And I'm on the two of the key committees, but I'm not in the leadership role, so I've not seen it. I suspect that we will, but after President Trump has said the American public should see it, I believe that's the case. It's been described to me by two of the eight members who did see it.
And, you know, I think what the American public is likely to see based on what's been described as two struggling individuals clinging to flotsam after a shipwreck without a radio, without ways to either move or communicate, without weapons, clearly not posing a danger to the United States who were just slaughtered in open water. That is not what were supposed to do. The DOD defense manual makes plain that you are not to attack shipwrecked folks.
You're not supposed to attack wounded combatants on the battlefield. So this is a very serious issue, and it shouldn't be made light of by secretary of defense, who posts a cartoon of -- a cartoon of Franklin the Turtle trying to turn it into a big joke. This is no joke.
[00:15:01]
MICHAELSON: The Trump administration says these attacks are stopping narco-terrorists. These guys are just as bad as the folks in al Qaeda. And that -- and that we have an opportunity to basically stop the drugs from coming in. What's your rebuttal to that?
KAINE: Well, I thought that was interesting. And the secretary said that today, just as bad as a Qaeda. What's the difference between these guys and al Qaeda? The difference is Congress voted to declare war on al Qaeda. The Constitution says you are not to be at war without a vote of Congress, except a president can always unilaterally defend the nation from an imminent attack on our troops or on our homeland.
Folks floating on the water thousands of miles away from the United States who are defenseless, they were not imminently attacking. And so these missions need to have a congressional vote. I have tried once already to force a vote in Congress on this. I could only get two Republicans to support the notion. No war without Congress. I needed at least four. But I'm forcing a vote on this matter again a week from Monday.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: Our thanks to Senator Tim Kaine for sitting down with us at the Reagan Library.
One of President Trump's most outspoken critics is launching a bid for the U.S. Senate. Congress member Jasmine Crockett of Texas announced her candidacy. She will have to take -- to beat State Representative James Talarico in the Democratic primary before making it to the general election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JASMINE CROCKETT (D-TX): I don't know that we'll necessarily convert all of Trump's supporters. That's not our goal.
LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: Do you need to?
CROCKETT: Our goal is to definitely talk to people. No, we don't, we don't need to. Our goal is to make sure that we can engage people that historically have not been talked to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: That was Crockett giving her first interview to Laura Coates here on CNN. Crockett's announcement comes the same day that Congress member Colin Allred ended his Senate campaign. He will run instead for Texas's newly redrawn 33rd Congressional District.
Our political panel, Areva Martin and John Kobylt, will debate that race live on our set coming up. But next, the most popular new show on HBO is about professional hockey players in a secret gay relationship. The director and creator of "Hidden Rivalry" joins me next here on THE STORY IS.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:21:35]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're an awesome player to watch.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I go to hockey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The best probably.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will be seeing each other a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Boston and Montreal play against each other often.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boss, you got to see this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's like a huge movie star.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are there any gay hockey players?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None that have said it publicly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: One of the most talked about series on TV right now is called "Heated Rivalry." It's a love story between two gay professional hockey players. The show, one of the top ranked shows on HBO Max, which has the same parent company as CNN, is based off a book called "Heated Rivalry" by Rachel Reid. Jacob Tierney is the director and creator of the TV series. He joins me now from Toronto.
Welcome. Congratulations on the success.
JACOB TIERNEY, DIRECTOR, "HEATED RIVALRY": Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
MICHAELSON: So Rachel Reid has said that she was diagnosed with Parkinson's, and then four days later, she happened to get a DM from you saying you wanted to make this show. What about the book made you want to make this?
TIERNEY: You know, when I first read it, I didn't necessarily think I was going to make it. It is what they call in the romance world spicy, which is to say, very spicy. A lot of -- a lot of very descriptive sexual activity. But I really did -- I fell in love with Shane and Ilya, I think, like a lot of the fans out there of the book and now of the show have like, there's something very compelling and very endlessly watchable about this couple.
And also, I'm a huge hockey fan. Rachels a huge hockey fan. I can feel it in her books. She knew her stuff and yes, just through a series of confluence of events, I was just like, I feel like I know this story and I feel like I can tell this. But yes, I really -- I began my life here as a fan. I'm a fan like the others.
MICHAELSON: And Rachel must have been overwhelmed at the timing of all this.
TIERNEY: You know, I didn't -- she didn't tell me until a long time after, if I'm being honest and I, you know, I just, I didn't even know she was Canadian. I just slid into her DMs like a creep, and was just like, I don't even know if you know who I am. And she was a fan of my other two shows, "Letterkenny" and "Shoresy." So that was a nice icebreaker. And, yes. And then I just I just asked her, but I had no idea what was going on in her life at the time. She told me I think like six months later.
MICHAELSON: Wow. Well, I think there are a lot of people that are probably sliding into your DMs and certainly the two stars' DMs after this. So let's talk about some of these reviews.
TIERNEY: I can only imagine what's going on there.
MICHAELSON: Yes. RogerEbert.com's headline is this HBO "Heated Rivalry" is the sexiest and most significant queer show of the year. CNN's headline is a little more to the point. "Heated Rivalry" is everything you love about rom-coms with less pants. So the sex scenes are more visual than most.
TIERNEY: Can't argue with that.
MICHAELSON: Mainstream outlets. There's a lot of butts. Gay sex in a way you don't usually see on TV. Can you discuss why it was important for you creatively, for that vision and how you carried that out?
TIERNEY: Yes, absolutely. It's really two things. One, this is the language of their relationship. It's about two guys who hook up for want of a better term, over the years, and then realize that they can't shake each other, that they keep doing this, and they don't talk a lot.
[00:25:07]
They don't communicate a lot. They really communicate through sex. It's also a very fundamental part of this book and this genre, and it's what the fans like about it. And frankly, so do I. It's a, you know, for want of a better term, it's a horny story. And I think that it's fun to see that on TV. I don't think we get a lot of that.
MICHAELSON: Yes. And so clearly there's a lot of people online that are thirsting over it that are yearning for that. But also on a serious note, I think there's a lot of people, especially in the LGBTQ community, who feel seen by this in a way that they don't usually. What's been the response like from you -- for you? What are you hearing from people?
TIERNEY: I mean, it's been -- it's been overwhelmingly positive. It's very nice. It's such a -- it's a really -- the community around the book that we're so lucky has transferred over to the show is very generous, very enthusiastic. Maybe a little bit thirsty. Maybe that's a correct assessment. But definitely very kind. They were -- they've been so nice to my actors, which is truly all I care about actually.
And it's been -- the reaction feels really nice. And I -- and the reaction from queer people, which is very special. I think you're right. What we don't get to do a lot in popular culture is have sex. And if we do, we're often punished for it in a narrative storytelling kind of way. So it's been -- I think it's nice for people to see two people who want to be having sex, having sex on TV. And, yes, that's been a really -- that's been the response from the queer community, who I think was less familiar with the book or the source material than a lot of the women that read this material are. It's been really special.
MICHAELSON: And do you think part of that lack of communication and really communicating through sex is sort of typical for people that are in the closet that are maybe uncomfortable talking, but that's the way of talking?
TIERNEY: I mean, I think it's typical of men. So I think it's compounded when you're in the closet, but when you're two men in a relationship, particularly two young men, communication is not, maybe I'm just speaking for myself as a gay man, it's not amazing. So I think that there's a lot of truth to, it's easier for them to communicate with their bodies than it is for them to be -- like the sex in the show, particularly in the first few episodes, is when they're at their most vulnerable with each other.
They can't be vulnerable. But they're too kind of tied up in, I think, their careers and in their ideas of what they're supposed to be to connect outside of the bedroom.
MICHAELSON: Yes. Well, congratulations. I think three episodes have been released. There's more to come. And we look forward to --
TIERNEY: Yes. This Friday on HBO Max. Yes.
MICHAELSON: Hopefully another season next year. And we're especially loving the blond hair. So nicely done on that as well.
TIERNEY: Thank you very much. Thank you for noticing. I appreciate your candor.
MICHAELSON: Jacob Tierney, thank you so much.
We'll be right back. More of THE STORY IS right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR: We continue to follow breaking news happening right now. This is a live look at Kazakhstan. Within the hour, we have seen three astronauts touch down. This is one of the Russian cosmonauts. We're waiting to see the American astronaut, Jonny Kim. We expect to see soon.
[00:33:06]
But they -- good news is they're safe and sound after eight months aboard the International Space Station.
Let's talk some politics now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JASMINE CROCKETT (D-TX): The reality is that I think that that's where we are going to walk that fine line. We are going to be able to get people that potentially have voted for Trump, even though I obviously am one of his loudest opponents. Because at the end of the day, they vote for who they believe is fighting for them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: That is Texas Democrat Jasmine Crockett giving CNN's Laura Coates her first interview after announcing her bid for the U.S. Senate.
Joining me now to discuss that and more, our political panel: Areva Martin, bestselling author, CNN legal analyst, and founder of the Special Needs Network. John Kobylt, is the host of "The John Kobylt Show" on KFI-AM 640 here in Los Angeles, available everywhere as a podcast on the iHeartRadio app. Welcome to you both.
AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Thanks. Good to see you.
JOHN KOBYLT, HOST, KFI-AM'S "THE JOHN KOBYLT SHOW": Thanks for having us.
MARTIN: Always a pleasure.
MICHAELSON: So -- so, Jasmine Crockett put out her first ad. She didn't say anything. She let Donald Trump do the talking. She sat there, and these were all things that Trump has said about her. Here's some of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Somebody said the other day, she's one of the leaders of the party. I said, you've got to be kidding.
Now they're going to rely on Crockett. Crockett is going to bring them back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: So, what do you make of this as a strategy? What do you make of Jasmine?
MARTIN: I think it's pretty smart. Jasmine is brilliant. She has been so effective in going toe-to-toe with Donald Trump and talking straight to the American people, and that's what has made her a rising star in the Democratic Party. She's already the frontrunner in this Texas race to be a U.S. Senator.
So, I'm super excited about her candidacy. And I think she's going to galvanize not just the Democrats and independents in Texas, but those independents and Democrats all over the country. So, this is a good thing for the party.
MICHAELSON: I mean, it's interesting, because she has such a different strategy than James Talarico --
MARTIN: Yes.
[00:35:03]
MICHAELSON: -- who is a member of the legislature in Texas, more soft- spoken, highlights his, I'm working with everybody. I'll go on FOX News Channel all the time.
Let's put up the full screen showing sort of his response to all of this. I guess we don't have that. Basically, he's saying we welcome everybody. We're welcoming of everybody in the race. What do you make of this contrast?
KOBYLT: I don't know what to make of her. It's hard. There's no shortage of delusional people who will run for an office that they have no business running for.
I have no idea how she expects to win a majority vote in the state of Texas. Is she aware of the state that she's in? I mean, they got a governor who they supported greatly. He was famous for sending literally hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens to cities all across the country.
Like, what's the market for Jasmine Crockett, beyond her congressional district?
MARTIN: Well --
KOBYLT: I don't get it. There's just simply not the kind of people that would vote for her living in that state in great enough numbers.
MARTIN: Well, I think you're wrong about that. And you talk about delusional candidates. Donald Trump has written a playbook on being a delusional candidate.
So, I think Jasmine Crockett has as good of a chance of winning in a state like Texas as Donald Trump had in terms of winning the country.
And you look at what Beto O'Rourke did in 2018. He broke the ceiling of Democrats', you know, votes in Texas. He came within 2 percent of beating Ted Cruz, who was a very, very popular Republican in the state of Texas.
So, when you think about the energy that we've seen so many progressives like Jasmine Crockett have across this country, I think this is the perfect time for her to throw her name into the ring and to go toe-to-toe with Donald Trump. And then those Texans who are looking for an alternative.
Donald Trump's ratings are failing. The American people are tired of his chaos and his lack of leadership. And they're looking for someone like Jasmine Crockett.
KOBYLT: I've been hearing that one for 11 years now. Trump is always failing in his ratings, always on the verge of blowing it, always on -- he's still here. He's going to be here another three years.
And when she has to run, she has to run against a Republican candidate, not Trump. I mean, this is a mistake Newsom is making. By the time Newsom runs for president, Trump's not going to be on the ballot.
I want to know how Jasmine Crockett is going to represent people in Texas. Other than saying Trump is crazy, I mean, to me, that's a really tired act.
OK, let's grant you he's crazy. How -- now, what are you going to do for people in Texas -- MICHAELSON: Yes.
KOBYLT: -- who are struggling economically? I don't hear that. I hear this performance art like she's auditioning for "Saturday Night Live."
MICHAELSON: That strategy -- that strategy clearly works in a state like California to win statewide elections where people are very anti- Trump.
But -- but Areva, to John's point about -- about the Texas electorate, would there be an argument that maybe an approach like Talarico, which is more of saying to Republicans, you can support me, I'm with you. I'm talking your language, maybe would allow them to vote for him more comfortably than somebody like Crockett.
MARTIN: Well, we've heard that over and over again. And the reality is, yes, Texas is not California. Jasmine Crockett is not delusional about the fact that she's in the state of Texas. She's already won a congressional seat in the state of Texas. So, she knows the voters in that state.
So -- but we also know that there is a hunger. There is an appetite for young progressive candidates like her, not just in states like California, but even in states like Texas.
And under that theory, no Democrat would ever run in a red state like Texas.
And yes, the -- the state legislator, Talarico, who is running, has a different approach. But that doesn't mean that his approach is going to be the winning approach. Already. Jasmine Crockett has been in this race one day, and she's already, because of her name I.D., because of the money that she's already proven that she can raise, she's going to be the front runner and likely to be the candidate that wins the primary, the Democratic primary.
Now, yes. Does she have a tougher pathway in Texas than California? Of course she does. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have a way that she can win to be the U.S. Senator for the state of Texas.
MICHAELSON: Meanwhile, let's talk about the state of California for a moment. The governor of California, Gavin Newsom, was just in Washington, D.C., last week. He wanted to meet with the Trump administration to talk about fire relief.
And in the past, we remember in January, President Trump and Gavin Newsom spoke on the tarmac at LAX. They shook hands. President Trump said, I'm going to be there for you.
These are some of the other meetings that Newsom had in Washington last week. You see a lot of Democrats. What you don't see is anybody from the Trump administration. They did not agree to meet with him. Nobody from FEMA would meet with him.
Newsom administration says that that's unprecedented, to not meet with the governor while they're in town, and they request a meeting. Do you have a problem with the Trump administration not meeting with
the governor to talk about this issue?
KOBYLT: If I was in the Trump administration, I'd be asking myself, how would I trust Newsom with tens of billions of dollars? He wants almost $34 billion. When you look at $24 billion in homeless money that Newsom admits disappeared and he doesn't know where it is; $17 billion in high-speed rail money. Same thing. And there's no high- speed rail. Thirty-three billion dollars in unemployment funds during COVID that disappeared, most of it to fraud.
[00:40:10]
Why would you give Gavin Newsom $34 billion when you've got over 70 billion unaccounted for in those other three categories?
MARTIN: Well first of all, those facts just aren't facts. Those are --
KOBYLT: Yes, they are.
MARTIN: Gavin Newsom has never said, "I can't account for $30 billion that's been given to me by the federal government." And the question was --
KOBYLT: No, no, no. The 24 billion in homeless money, he admitted he doesn't know what.
MARTIN: No, the question was -- no. Absolutely, positively not. And the question was meeting with Gavin Newsom.
Look, the reality is Donald Trump is the president for all Americans, not just those that live in red states.
And he's not hurting Gavin Newsom. Gavin Newsom's home didn't burn in the Palisades. He's hurting voters. He's hurting first responders. He's hurting small business owners. He's hurting the people of the state of California.
And he's setting a horrible precedent for individuals, for voters, for citizens of this country that live in states that have been the victims of disasters, like these fires.
And for him not to meet or have someone from his administration meet with this governor is childish. This is -- this is schoolyard energy. This is not leadership energy, which we need and should expect from a president. It's ridiculous that he wouldn't sit down or have his administration meet about the needs of these victims.
KOBYLT: Have you seen Gavin Newsom's X feed?
MARTIN: These fire victims.
KOBYLT: Have you seen what he's done for months? The stuff he's said about Trump. On --
MICHAELSON: How much stuff has Trump said about him? MARTIN: Hello.
KOBYLT: I know. But -- but Newsom, there's a difference.
MARTIN: That's political -- sorry, John. That doesn't have anything to do with the victims. I'm a -- I'm a resident of this state.
KOBYLT: Newsom doesn't have any leverage on Trump.
MARTIN: This is about leadership.
KOBYLT: So, if you're a politician --
MARTIN: So, the only way that you can get help as a victim, is to have leverage? What about the voters? Do you care about the voters? Aren't there Republican voters that live in the Palisades?
KOBYLT: Yes, there are. There are.
MARTIN: Don't they deserve to get help?
KOBYLT: There are. And -- and Newsom spends $35 billion a year on illegal aliens. So, why doesn't he spend it on Americans and rebuild the fire-ravaged area instead of on illegal aliens who aren't supposed to be here?
MARTIN: Donald Trump --
MICHAELSON: Don't you -- don't you have a problem, though, with this concept of sort of let's help the states that help me? I mean, isn't that different than what we've seen presidents do?
MARTIN: Aren't we Americans, too, John?
KOBYLT: In -- in a -- in an ideal world, yes. But you know, Trump's game. Again, he's been around 11 years.
If Newsom was smart, why would he go and insult Trump every day? If you want to get tens of billions of dollars out of somebody and, again, you have no leverage. And Trump really, really values leverage. And he's looking at --
MICHAELSON: Right.
KOBYLT: He's looking at Newsom the way he looked at Zelenskyy. You have no cards, buddy.
MARTIN: John.
MICHAELSON: Which is what Newsom did during COVID.
KOBYLT: Right.
MICHAELSON: Which is why Trump said so many nice things about him during COVID, and which is why California got amongst the most money during COVID. KOBYLT: He's -- he's a politician. You have to play the game.
MARTIN: This isn't about the boys on the playground. This is about the victims. Let's keep the focus on the victims.
MICHAELSON: We're going to -- we're going to --
KOBYLT: You've got to -- a smart guy plays the game.
MARTIN: No. Stay focused on the victims.
MICHAELSON: All right. That's going to be the last word. Areva. John, great to see you both.
MARTIN: Thank you.
MICHAELSON: And we are, of course, going to be focused on the victims; doing a lot of reporting on that in the next few months here on THE STORY IS.
But up next here on THE STORY IS, the many lives of Tupac Shakur. Bestselling writer Jeff Pearlman joins me to discuss his new bestseller on the rap icon. Really interesting insights into him. Stay with us.
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[00:42:54]
MICHAELSON: Thirty years after his death, Tupac Shakur remains a source of fascination. Songs like "California Love" and "Changes" continue to be anthems.
Questions about his death persist, and perhaps even more interesting is the stories about his life.
My next guest, Jeff Pearlman, interviewed over 700 people for his new biography, "Only God Can Judge Me: The Many Lives of Tupac Shakur."
Here in studio with me is "New York Times" bestselling author, Jeff Pearlman. Jeff, welcome.
JEFF PEARLMAN, AUTHOR: Thank you.
MICHAELSON: Congratulations on the book. It is so, so good. And you are one of my favorite authors. I think the way you write, you just capture people. You focus on details in a way if you don't.
I loved your sports books. As a huge Laker fan, I especially love these two books on the Lakers. And the "Showtime" book became "Winning Time," the HBO series. Hopefully, maybe one day they'll make "The Three-Ring Circus" into a thing.
But you've written all these sports books. This is the first time you've written about a musician. What made you drawn to Tupac, especially after spending so much time in sports? PEARLMAN: Well, I grew up a huge, huge, huge hip-hop fan, and I'm a
little bit of a cliche. Like, I was the kid, the white kid in the 99 percent rural New York town. My best friend was one of the two black kids in my grade of 330. He got me into hip-hop. It's almost like the cliche movie. Started listening to public enemy. Tupac. You know?
And I just really came to love the music of Tupac and always thought, there's a great biography waiting to be written that needs to be written, that hasn't been written. I just thought, why not try something different?
MICHAELSON: Yes. And then, as -- it makes sense that the white Jew would be the guy to do it.
PEARLMAN: Why not the white Jew? Why not the white Jew? You know?
MICHAELSON: And yet, you got access to all these people who trusted you. In part, I think, because of "Winning Time" and other things. They -- they knew you. They trusted your work. Seven hundred different people you talked to.
PEARLMAN: Technically, there were 652. I don't want to lie.
MICHAELSON: OK. OK. Well, that's -- you're all about the details. That's the thing.
PEARLMAN: I try.
MICHAELSON: I want to read one thing that I think really sums up Tupac's childhood from you and the contradictions in him. This is on page 123: "Everything about Tupac felt surprising and different. He was a black kid who loved theater. He was an artistic kid who couldn't sing. He was a shit" -- sorry -- "talker who couldn't fight. He was a rapper who listened to Don McLean and Kate Bush. He was a mama's boy, sleeping on a friend's couch. He took the bus from the Jungle, only to roll with the hippies and the gays. He was rough and effeminate, upbeat and depressed."
[00:50:19]
He was a lot of different things at the same time. That contradiction makes him especially interesting to study.
PEARLMAN: Man, he was so fascinating. I mean, honestly, he really was. He was a kid -- like, to me, his Baltimore period was really -- there were 313 different reasons Baltimore was amazing.
He went to the Baltimore School of Performing Arts, which was this awesome downtown school. That's where he met Jada Pinkett. And it was you walk in the Baltimore School for the Arts, it's like "Fame." It is like the movie "Fame." And you hear people singing, and you hear orchestras.
But then he would go home at night, and his mom is a crack addict. And there's no heat, and there's no electricity. And it's the East side of Baltimore. And every night he's living this hell, and every day he's living this dream.
And he's theatrical. And he's a kid in Baltimore, nail polish on his fingernails, spray paint on his jeans, tears, and, you know, just a beautiful artistic soul with a hellish home life.
MICHAELSON: And his -- his talent just radiated whenever he would rap. I mean, some people talk about, you don't know if they're going to be something. He was special from a very early age.
PEARLMAN: I had a -- I had a really good find. He had a girlfriend at Baltimore School for the Arts named Mary. And I reached out to Mary and people said, she's not going to talk, she's not going to talk. And she finally agreed to talk to me.
She lives in Nebraska. And she said, you know, my mom recently found under the bed about 150 letters that Tupac wrote me when I was in high school. If you come out to Nebraska, I'll let you look at the letters.
I go to Nebraska. We went to the worst bagel place I've ever been. New York Jew, Nebraska bagel was not a good marriage. But the writing in these letters, Tupac was sad. He was horny. He was angry at his mom. He loved his mom. But the writing was beautiful and artistic. And you could just see the origins of where this guy came from, from these letters to his high school girlfriend.
And he was a -- I'm telling you, I'm not just saying this. I've been a writer for 30 years. I could not touch Tupac as a writer at 15.
MICHAELSON: Really?
PEARLMAN: He was so ridiculously good as a writer.
MICHAELSON: Yes.
PEARLMAN: Just was.
MICHAELSON: Like a real prodigy. And his mom was a real intellectual, too, before she got caught up in all the crack. And -- and to see that dynamic was so interesting.
And then of course, so many people are still fascinated with his death. What was the most important thing you learned about that?
PEARLMAN: Well, I think it was avoidable. To be honest, just bluntly, it was in the -- at the MGM Grand. It was a Mike Tyson-Bruce Seldon fight. Tupac is super hyped up after the fight.
And he -- he basically walks up to a guy from a rival gang from Death Row where Tupac is with, punches him in the face over something. The guy's name was Orlando Anderson. All the Death Row guys beat the crap out of him.
And later on, that night, they're looking around for Tupac, and Tupac is driving around with Suge Knight. And basically, just -- I mean, it's a basic story. Drives up on him and shoots him.
There are so many conspiracy theories. Sometimes the truest thing is the actual truth in the straight line of it all.
MICHAELSON: Yes. The -- a story at the beginning, in the introduction that literally gave me chills, and I started to tear up reading, a few pages into this --
PEARLMAN: Yes.
MICHAELSON: -- is the story behind his song "Brenda's Got a Baby."
PEARLMAN: Yes.
MICHAELSON: Which was actually a true story.
PEARLMAN: Yes.
MICHAELSON: And you found the people in the middle of it. Talk to us about that.
PEARLMAN: It always pays to know a good genealogist. And I went to high school with a woman named Michele Soulli, who is the greatest genealogist of all time.
Basically, "Brenda's Got a Baby" is about a 12-year-old. Tupac is filming the movie "Juice." It's 1991. Every day he gets a newspaper brought to his trailer. It's a "New York Daily News."
There's an article one day, "Cries in the Night," about a 12-year-old girl who was raped by a cousin, didn't tell anyone she was pregnant. This is in the Noble Drew Ali public housing in Brooklyn. Delivers the baby. Throws the baby down a trash heap.
Tupac reads this article, and he goes into his trailer while filming "Juice" and writes "Brenda's Got a Baby," in like a half hour. And he was 19 years old. He was a kid.
I decided it would be amazing to find the baby who was thrown down the trash heap. I aligned with my genealogist. She sends me a number one day. She's like, I think this is him.
I text this guy Davon Hodge out of the blue. He's like, holy crap, how'd you find me?
He lives in Las Vegas. I go out to Las Vegas. I hang out with Davon Hodge, the baby. He hasn't seen his mom.
I go back to my genealogist, Michele Soulli.
MICHAELSON: Yes.
PEARLMAN: Can we find the mom?
I don't know, that's kind of hard. She reaches out to this woman a few days later. She says, By any chance, did you have a baby when you were 12 years old?
The woman says, Who is this? My name is Michelle Soulli. I'm working with the writer Jeff Pearlman.
Do you know where my son is? Do you know where my son is? She starts screaming -- screaming and crying.
Yes. We know where your son is.
She's like, Oh my God. Oh my God, I'm away from home. I need to get back to home.
Well, where are you?
I'm in -- I'm at a concert.
What concert?
The Red Hot Chili Peppers.
Where are they playing?
In Las Vegas.
Well, your son, Davon, lives in Las Vegas.
[00:55:02]
She starts screaming, crying. They reunite that night. So, that reunited the mother and the baby from "Brenda's Got a Baby."
MICHAELSON: Yes. Thanks to you. And she had a tattoo of his name.
PEARLMAN: Of his name.
MICHAELSON: Thinking she would never see him again.
PEARLMAN: Correct. It's crazy. It's the best find in my journalistic career.
MICHAELSON: I mean, is that -- that's got to fill your heart to think. Yes.
PEARLMAN: I mean, yes, this is why I don't -- I can't speak for you, but this is why you do this job.
MICHAELSON: Yes, yes. It's -- it's incredible. "Only God Can Judge Me." Jeff Pearlman, a bestseller once again. Check it out.
Jeff, thank you so much.
PEARLMAN: Thank you.
MICHAELSON: I really appreciate it. Keep up the great, great work.
PEARLMAN: Thank you.
MICHAELSON: We'll be right back. More news after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
