Return to Transcripts main page
The Story Is with Elex Michaelson
Trump: 'I Think I Have the Right to Run Again' for President; Future of Voting Rights Act after Supreme Court Gutting; Bob Costas Weighs in on Trans Athletes; Brazil to Choose Next President in Runoff. Aired 12-1a ET
Aired October 23, 2026 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[00:00:13]
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: THE STORY IS with Elex Michaelson is next.
ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Elex Michaelson, live in Los Angeles.
Coming up, THE STORY IS new campaign trail challenges. We'll take you to Iowa, where Donald Trump's stump speech for a Senate candidate included a pitch for her -- another presidential run.
THE STORY IS attack ad fallout. Who's standing by Vivek Ramaswamy? And who's condemning his move to spend more money on a controversial ad about his opponent?
And THE STORY IS sports and politics. We'll speak with broadcasting legend Bob Costas about his recent statements on trans athletes and how he feels about the state of the media today.
A special election edition of THE STORY IS starts right now.
It's 9 p.m. out West, midnight in the East. And we begin with the backlash of that salacious campaign ad in Ohio, which now, spreading far beyond the state's border.
The Republican nominee for Senate in Iowa, Ashley Hinson, said the, quote, "ridiculous ad" should be axed, right before a campaign event with President Trump, who insisted that the spot should keep running.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- Ukraine, Mr. President?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're campaigning for Ashley Hinson tonight in Iowa. She said that the Ramaswamy ad is absolutely terrible, and it should be taken down.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Well, that's her opinion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you defending it?
TRUMP: That's her opinion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: The ad from Republican Vivek Ramaswamy's campaign features the estranged mother of Ohio Democratic gubernatorial nominee Amy Acton, calling her daughter a liar.
A reminder that Acton's birth mother lost custody of her when she was 12 after Acton accused her stepfather of sexual abuse.
President Trump defended the ad once again during his stop in Iowa, calling it fair game.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When I first saw it, I said, wow, that means Vivek easily will win the race. And then I got a call from Vivek. He said, What would you recommend? Because I'm getting killed in the press.
Why?
He said, because they think I should immediately take the ad off.
You've got to ride with it. You mean you have a mother that said terrible things about -- well, who knows the daughter would -- she really said she was a horrible liar. I mean, it was crazy.
And he made a commercial. He put it up, you know, like I would do.
So, I told him, leave it up and look upstairs and say, Thank you, God, very much. I appreciate it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: President Trump went on to suggest, once again, that perhaps he should seek a third term. As is often the case, it's not clear if he's serious or just trying to be provocative.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't know who's going to be your next president. And I think the law said it. I'm not 100 percent sure, but I think the law says that I'm not allowed to run again.
I've studied that phrase. Ashley, I've studied that phrase. I just got a poll number. I'd kill everybody. I'd be there. I studied that phrase forever. Unfortunately, it's quite concise. There's not a lot of wiggle room.
It says something to the effect that, under no circumstances and for any reason will you even consider thinking about running for president, if you had.
Well, the one thing is different. They cheated us on the second one, because we won it three times. So, I think I have the right to run again. I think I have the right to run again. There's a cheater.
(END VIDEO CLIP) MICHAELSON: Joining us now is our panel. Elisha Krauss is a conservative political commentator and former Republican congressman. Joe Walsh is the host of the "Social Contract with Joe Walsh" podcast.
Welcome to you both.
So, we've got two people that have experience in the Republican Party, one of whom is no longer a supporter of President Trump. But both of you sort of understand the mindset.
Joe, to you first: what's with this third term toying? And does this really have to do with the concept of being a lame duck?
JOE WALSH, HOST, "SOCIAL CONTRACT WITH JOE WALSH" PODCAST: See, I don't think we talk about this enough. He's losing his mind.
MICHAELSON: You really think so?
WALSH: No, no, no, no, Elex. I'm not trying to get a viral hit. I think he's freaking losing his mind rapidly every day.
[00:05:03]
Elex, look, he's been on this warpath about men's butts --
MICHAELSON: Yes, he --
WALSH: -- the last two or three weeks.
MICHAELSON: -- has talked a lot about physical attributes of men.
WALSH: And we all laugh about it.
MICHAELSON: Yes.
WALSH: But he's saying crazy stuff. He's losing his mind.
The other thing is they got to get their base out. Their base, the hardcore MAGAs, are not motivated to vote.
MICHAELSON: And does talking about men's butts help you do that?
WALSH: The -- talking about men's butts, but also talking about talking about -- talking about a third term may help that. And that's why they've doubled down on Vivek's ad.
ELISHA KRAUSS, CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think what actually -- the president's -- a pro and a con to the president is that he likes to read a room. And unfortunately, when he's at these rallies, he's reading the most MAGA of the MAGA base --
MICHAELSON: Yes.
KRAUSS: -- who for some people, this is the event of the year other than the Fourth of July and the Super Bowl. Right?
MICHAELSON: Yes.
KRAUSS: They are traveling hundreds of miles and hours and hours to bring their family to see the president of the United States. And he is reading the room, and he's getting the cheers, and he's getting the laughs that he wants.
But he's not understanding the ramifications that that is going to potentially have this midterm election. I think that there has been some fear, and we've even seen some false (ph) polling out. And I think that that is really dissuading some Republicans from voting.
And I would encourage people to go and make sure that their voices are heard.
MICHAELSON: And it also, though -- you know, if President Trump, especially if they lose big in this midterms, he is a lame duck, right? I mean, that -- that me -- and -- and the idea of running again or even floating that possibility keeps him relevant. Right? It makes it harder for him to get off the stage.
WALSH: Elex, he will never, ever, ever --
MICHAELSON: -- hate the concept of being a lame duck.
WALSH: -- allow himself to be a lame duck, ever.
Remember, I've never seen this in my life. He's got the entire party in the palm of his hand. He will not allow himself to be a lame duck. He will try to dominate the next two years, period.
MICHAELSON: Well, and so let's talk about that ad, which he's doubling down on, saying you should say thank you, God. You've got to ride with it.
A different message from the current Republican governor of Ohio, Mike DeWine. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. MIKE DEWINE (R), OHIO: The ad, on its face, is deeply, deeply troubling.
I would just urge the Ramaswamy campaign to -- to take this down. It's just -- it's just -- it's just wrong.
Family members have always historically been off-limits. Those of us who run for office, we get in the arena. And, you know, it's our choice to get in. But your children, your mother, that -- that should not be brought up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Amy Acton once worked for Mike DeWine. That's an important piece of context there.
But -- but how do you see this, as somebody with a conservative background, as a woman? What do you make of this ad?
KRAUSS: I feel like the Republican Party has -- the Democratic Party likes to use women as pawns. And I often say, in my campus speeches to a lot of Gen Z young women, that Republicans don't even utilize our skills at all.
And this is a further example of, unfortunately, how the Republican Party keeps losing suburban moms that used to be a reliable voting bloc for them. And this is not a good thing.
As a friend who volunteers and is an advocate for sexual assault victims, who has friends who are incredible female prosecutors that put these bad guys behind bars that do this. I think we have to take it very seriously.
And I think it just -- the ad was just icky. It was gross. Even if the mother is being completely true, I don't like ads like this.
I didn't like it when Republicans went after the Obama girls for how short their skirts were. I didn't like it when almost every single member of the Kennedy family went after RFK after he decided to endorse President Trump, and talked about how dangerous and radical he was.
I really wish that the Democrats would -- on both --
MICHAELSON: Well, that's -- I mean, that's a policy. That's somebody who's in the arena talking about policy.
KRAUSS: But they also went after his kids. They also went after his wife. I mean, they were blacklisted from Hollywood. I mean, get -- listen, I just don't like it when families get involved. And it is very gross to me.
And I would agree with -- with the Republicans. This is damning for the Republican Party. And we need better spokespeople. We need better messengers when it comes to reaching female voters, because they are winnable. We just don't even try.
WALSH: Yes. I agree with all of that. I agree with everything Governor DeWine said. But it's too late. This is Trump's Republican Party.
KRAUSS: No.
WALSH: It is an indecent, cruel party, and it ain't changing.
MICHAELSON: Well, and it also seems like the lesson that Donald Trump has taught Republicans is don't ever, ever, ever, ever apologize.
WALSH: Ever.
KRAUSS: No, no. I would actually argue that that's what the Clinton and the Obamas taught the Republicans, is don't ever apologize.
That you actually have Donald Trump because of the major swing of the Republican Party voters that were sick and tired of being told how wrong they are and feeling like they were indefensible against the powers that be, against the swamp, and against even some Republicans in power.
And so, they felt like, true or not, Donald Trump represented them and was able to stick it to the man.
[00:10:03]
MICHAELSON: I mean, Bill Clinton -- Bill Clinton did not apologize for a lot of the stuff that he did, or --
KRAUSS: Hillary.
MICHAELSON: -- slow-walked -- slow-walked a lot of things. Barack Obama and Bill Clinton, though, have said, "I'm sorry" before, something you almost never see Donald Trump do.
KRAUSS: Elex -- Elex, when on the campaign trail? Or when did Barack Obama ever apologize for Obamacare? Did Joe Biden ever apologize for a failed Afghanistan pullout?
MICHAELSON: Well, I don't think Barack Obama thinks -- thinks that Obamacare is wrong, but that's --
KRAUSS: Did Bill Clinton --
WALSH: Elex, to your point.
KRAUSS: All the lies he told about Obamacare, he clearly doesn't think he's wrong, because he hasn't.
WALSH: A lot of truth here. But to your point, all of my former Republican colleagues have learned from Trump, never apologize.
MICHAELSON: Never.
WALSH: Double down. Triple down.
MICHAELSON: It's weakness.
WALSH: Attack, lie.
KRAUSS: Well, it's an admission of guilt. That's what an attorney would tell you, right?
WALSH: It's weakness.
MICHAELSON: Yes. Well, it's weakness, right?
WALSH: Yes.
MICHAELSON: And so --
WALSH: Never show that.
MICHAELSON: But -- but -- but can Trump uniquely get away with that? WALSH: Yes.
MICHAELSON: Because of his unique charms. Whatever you think of him, he's an unbelievable political athlete who knows how to work the crowd. And somebody like Vivek Ramaswamy and J.D. Vance --
KRAUSS: They're not the same.
MICHAELSON: -- do they -- they're not the same, right?
KRAUSS: No. And we've actually seen that.
MICHAELSON: And when they try to act like that, it doesn't work for them.
KRAUSS: And aside from Vivek and J.D., though, we've seen this in down-ballot races across the country, that sometimes -- we might see this in Texas with Talarico versus Paxton. Right?
I think that that's a perfect example of what should be a viably strong red state that keeps putting up crappy --
MICHAELSON: Yes.
KRAUSS: -- mini-Trump-type candidates that get through the primary and do not perform well in a general.
Listen, I am probably the most conservative, conservative gal you've had on this show, you know, in a lot of ways. And yet, I can understand that we have to win. And I think that we can win without compromising our principles and compromising what types of candidates we put out.
WALSH: But Elex, to your point, we've uniquely lowered the bar for Trump, and we've not done that for any other politician.
MICHAELSON: But the -- but a real political superstar like Donald Trump, like Bill Clinton, like Barack Obama are so good at that that they're able to get away with certain things that other people are not.
KRAUSS: You know --
MICHAELSON: And when other people try to do it, it doesn't work.
KRAUSS: You know one of the main things --
MICHAELSON: This is why Al Gore did not win. And I got -- and I -- and we've got to go, because we have more to get into for the next hour. I could do a whole hour just on this.
But you guys will be back with more our next hour. Elisha Krauss, Joe Walsh, thank you so much.
I want to get to some financial news. Rough day on Wall Street. Rising oil prices and worries about the longevity of the A.I. boom rattle investors.
Tech stocks led the declines, with Meta shares losing 7 percent on an earnings report that forecasted hundreds of billions of dollars in A.I. spending.
That led the NASDAQ to post its worst day in four months, dropping 2.6 percent. The S&P 500 snapped a three-day winning streak to close down 1.2 percent.
Good news for some prospective home buyers, though. The cost of that loan just got a little cheaper. After eight straight weeks of increases, the average 30-year fixed mortgage rate fell to 7.3.2 percent this week. That's down from 7.4 percent last week. It marks the biggest one-week drop in more than six months.
President Trump has signed an executive order that the White House says will make homeownership more affordable for all Americans.
It instructs several government-backed mortgage providers to reduce their rates on single-family home loans, and it orders government agencies to automatically cancel mortgage insurance premiums for eligible borrowers once they build enough equity in their homes.
Ukraine's access to a critical satellite service has not been fully restored. That is according to President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who spoke with CNN's Christiane Amanpour on Thursday.
His account contradicts President Trump, who said that Elon Musk had restored the service. Trump declined to comment on a "Wall Street Journal" report that he personally asked Musk to lift the restrictions.
Starshield is a military-grade version of Musk's Starlink satellite network.
Ukraine says the slowdown has affected its military operations. Musk previously claimed that Starshield's speed was controlled by the U.S. military.
Meanwhile, Mr. Zelenskyy appears to be trying to mend fences with President Trump. Tensions escalated after Trump allowed Russian diesel sales to resume and waived new sanctions on Moscow.
But Zelenskyy told CNN their disagreements are not personal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: My attitude to Putin is very clear. I think that, if we will lift sanctions, we will make him stronger.
And that's why I'm like the president. It's not something personal between me and President Trump. And of course, I'm against of any lifting of sanctions.
I always said it to European partners, and I said it directly to American administration. I'm, of course -- I know what I do. I have to strengthen me, my country, my people, my army, but not my enemy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Still ahead, I'll be joined by Bob Costas to talk sports and politics.
[00:15:03]
Also, a voting machine allegedly changes a ballot in Tennessee. That claim coming from the sister of a very famous country singer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MICHAELSON: The sister of the late Dolly Parton says a voting machine changed her vote three times while she was trying to cast her ballot.
Stella Parton says it happened in Nashville, Tennessee, last week on the first day of early voting. She urged other voters to make sure they review their printed ballots before submitting them.
Issues like Parton's come up nearly every election. Experts and election officials say when voting machines change votes, it's nearly always due to people accidentally touching the machines and not something nefarious.
[00:20:13]
Kevin Morris is a senior research fellow and voting policy scholar at the Brennan Center for Justice. He's the coauthor of this book. It is called "An American Problem: How the Country Built and the Supreme Court Broke the Voting Rights Act."
Congratulations on the book. Welcome to THE STORY IS. You co-author with Michael G. Miller.
So, you delve into voting. For folks that may not be as familiar with their American history, real simply, what is the Voting Rights Act?
KEVIN MORRIS, SENIOR RESEARCH FELLOW AND VOTING POLICY SCHOLAR, BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE: Yes, absolutely. The Voting Rights Act was, in many ways, the crown jewel of the civil rights movement when we think about dr. King and John Lewis and all these people who stood up and fought for their rights in the middle of the last century.
It made good on the promises of the 15th Amendment. The 15th Amendment outlawed race discrimination in voting, and it had been on the books for a hundred years, largely going unenforced until the 1965 Voting Rights Act set up both stronger litigation tools for striking down discriminatory laws, and a policy called preclearance that stopped discriminatory laws in many parts of the country from going into effect before they ever hit the books.
They had -- parts of the country that were covered under this preclearance condition had to prove to the federal government that it would not -- these policies would not fall more heavily on voters of color. MICHAELSON: So, that happened at a time where you had, you know, a
very, very liberal legislature, liberal president. The Supreme Court kept this in place for many years.
But in the last 13 years, you say, three different Supreme Court cases have essentially struck it down.
MORRIS: That's right.
MICHAELSON: What are they? And real briefly, what did they do?
MORRIS: Yes. So, between 1965 and 2013, the Voting Rights Act gets stronger and stronger, until we hit 2013 and a case called Shelby County v. Holder.
And Shelby County effectively guts that preclearance condition that we were talking about. These parts of the country with an especially bad history of race discrimination, they don't need to get permission from the federal government anymore before they make changes to their policies.
And our book really dives into how Shelby County and the gutting of preclearance has led to a lot of Democratic backsliding in the parts of the country that were covered.
But at that point, the litigation tools of the Voting Rights Act were still good law. And John Roberts writes in Shelby County, "Section Two is permanent and applies nationwide."
Well, 13 years later, that's not quite so true. In 2021, there was a big case called Brnovich v. DNC that ended, effectively, the litigation tools' ability to strike down policies that made it harder for voters of color to cast a ballot.
And then earlier this year, in a case called Louisiana v. Callais struck down that provision's ability to get rid of maps and other tools that make it harder for those ballots to translate into meaningful political power.
MICHAELSON: So, now people are voting. Already, 20 million estimated people have already voted early so far. how is that impacting it? What are we actually seeing, now that all this is in place?
MORRIS: So, immediately after the Supreme Court decision was handed down earlier this year, three states -- Tennessee, Louisiana, and Alabama -- they redrew their congressional maps. And each of those states got rid of a congressional district where black voters had the opportunity to elect a candidate of their choosing.
So, already in these three states, black voters have less of an ability, kind of regardless of how high their turnout is, because of how the maps are drawn. They won't be able to elect the candidates of their choosing almost right off the bat.
But in the book, we talk about this extensively. What happens at the congressional level is just the tip of the iceberg. What's happening at the local level, in school board maps and how they're being drawn and how city council districts are being drawn. There's a whole lot -- other things going on under the surface here.
MICHAELSON: So, some of the conservatives on the Supreme Court would say that a lot of this stuff is no longer necessary, and it's actually racist against white people. What's the argument there?
MORRIS: That's right. In Shelby County, Chief Justice John Roberts, he says things have changed dramatically in the South. So, we don't need preclearance anymore.
And that sets up -- we're good social scientists. That sets up a hypothesis for us. If he's correct, and preclearance isn't helping things anymore, because we've moved on as a country, then getting rid of preclearance shouldn't have had any effect at all.
And we study that and we use more than a billion data points and all kinds of stats and data to show that that's not true in the parts of the country that were affected by this Shelby County decision, the racial turnout gap has grown twice as quickly as it would have otherwise.
[0024:46]
MICHAELSON: Interesting. So, Kevin Morris, the senior research fellow at the Brennan Center. Again, the name of the book, An American problem how the Supreme Court built and the Supreme Court, how the country built and the Supreme Court broke the Voting Rights Act. Congratulations on the book. Thanks for coming in.
[00:25:01]
MORRIS: Absolutely.
MICHAELSON: Still ahead this hour, we sit down with the legendary sportscaster Bob Costas, to talk about trans athletes and the midterm elections. See him standing by there. Bob Costas next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:30:06]
MICHAELSON: Welcome back. I'm Elex Michaelson. Let's take a look at today's top stories.
A top federal regulator for prediction markets is warning midterm candidates and their campaign staff to not bet on their own races.
The director of enforcement for the Commodity Futures Trading Commission said political operatives usually sign confidentiality deals with their employers, and anyone who uses that secret information to bet on an outcome is committing insider trading.
He warned, quote, "We're watching."
A top Trump ally is reportedly facing scrutiny from the federal government. The Justice Department is said to be investigating allegations of contract misconduct by Corey Lewandowski.
Sources say the probe is focused on his time working as de facto chief of staff to former Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem. His attorney says Lewandowski denies wrongdoing and has not been contacted by the DOJ about any investigation.
A federal judge has ordered President Trump to sit for a deposition by December 11 in his $10 billion lawsuit against the BBC.
The judge also warned the suit could be dismissed if Trump doesn't work harder to provide documents that the news outlet is entitled to in the case.
Trump sued the BBC last December. He alleges he was defamed by the media company with a documentary that aired before the 2024 election.
Let's talk about the messaging that's working and not working this midterm season.
In 2024, the Trump campaign spent millions of dollars targeting Kamala Harris's past support for transgender rights with this ad that aired over and over and over again in swing states.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kamala is for "they/them." President Trump is for you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: That worked in 2024, but not as much this year. Check out this recent CNN poll, where we asked voters what issue is extremely important to you.
Sixty-eight percent said the economy. Issues concerning trans rights and gender identity ranked dead last at 25 percent, behind voting rights, inflation, health care, the war in Iran, crime tariffs, data centers and abortion.
Back in March, sportscaster Bob Costas made national headlines when he talked about trans athletes in sports right here on THE STORY IS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB COSTAS, SPORTSCASTER: Common sense is not transphobic. There's a reason why the high school champions don't compete with the college champions. There is a reason why no trans man, who was once a woman and has become a man, has ever competed successfully with men.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: That clip was seen by millions. Here was the response on X at the time from Riley Gaines, who famously tied in a swim meet with a trans athlete. Quote, "Cool. But couldn't he have said this years ago? Like before men were awarded gold medals for punching women in the face at the Olympics in boxing?" That was a pretty common response from lots of folks: Bob, why are you
just saying this?
Well, here's the problem. Bob Costas had been saying that for years. Those folks just didn't bother to do a basic Google search.
With me now from New York is Bob Costas from NBC Sports. Bob, welcome back to THE STORY IS.
COSTAS: Hi, Elex. How are you?
MICHAELSON: I'm doing well. Good to have you back.
I know you think there are larger lessons about the reaction to what you said and what that says about the state of our national dialogue.
COSTAS: I think what I'm about to tell you illustrates something larger.
Whether it's talk radio or people on social media, they often feel no obligation to be familiar with even the basic facts of what they're about to comment on. If it's outside their frame of reference, well, then it didn't exist.
Or if it just matches up with their gut feeling, go ahead and say it. Go ahead and post it.
As you pointed out, I had talked about the trans issue, always prefacing it as I did on your show, completely not agreeing with those who try to use it as a culture war thing and demonize trans people and play to people's resentments and fears. I made -- I stipulated that to begin with.
But if you're talking about someone who was a biological man, went through puberty, and then becomes a woman, at least identifies that way, and wants to compete against women, that just violates common sense. And it's not transphobic to feel that way.
So, I made what I think was a nuanced point.
But in the current atmosphere, where anybody just says anything, and it's hot takes and clickbait, nuance is a nuisance.
So, I have nothing against Riley Gaines. I've never met her. The last time I hosted the Olympics, by the way, was a decade ago, in 2016. But she could easily have found out that I had held that position for quite some time.
[00:35:03]
There are people who say, when I talk now in retrospect, about steroids and baseball and what it did to the record books, why didn't you say anything at the time? Well, I did. I did.
You see the point that I'm making? Look, I'm -- I'm still fine. I'm good. Everything's fine. But I think that illustrates something larger than my little piece of
-- of the mosaic, which is that's kind of the coin of the realm on the Internet or in talk radio. If it -- if it fits a narrative that I want to put out there, I have no responsibility to check whether it's true or whether there's some nuance or shades of gray in it. Screw it. I'll just say whatever I want.
MICHAELSON: But on the issue itself of trans athletes in sports, those opposing James Talarico are using that issue, trying to use that issue against him. Here's an ad that's playing in Texas right now from a super PAC.
COSTAS: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Radical liberal James Talarico: for they/them, not you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Obviously, is the same tagline that Donald Trump used.
COSTAS: Yes.
MICHAELSON: Why do you think that that issue isn't working in the same way that it once did?
COSTAS: Because other issues have overtaken it. And the person who dined out for a long time on those sorts of -- beyond primary colors, just like ridiculous, extreme characterizations of everything, was Donald Trump.
And Donald Trump is not in such a good place anymore, either individually or in terms of leading the Republican Party; to the point where many Republicans are distancing themselves from him.
But if you're desperate enough, if you're Ken Paxton, you want to talk about character issues. Do you have another hour? He's desperate. He's desperate. So, he has to try, in some way, to demonize James Talarico, rather than talk about whatever the issues may be or debate whatever the topic may be on its merits.
MICHAELSON: Well, and another thing that's happened, Bob, is that a lot of the Democrats, after what happened in 2024, have moved their positions closer to you.
COSTAS: Yes.
MICHAELSON: You know, we saw Gavin Newsom coming out and saying, basically what you've said.
James Talarico has changed his position on trans athletes, saying that now he opposes trans athletes in sports if it, quote, "endangers safety or fairness."
So, it seems like some Democrats are headed towards your position, which is the position that most Americans believe in.
COSTAS: Well, I've never felt that you have to be right up and down the line in one party or one wing across the spectrum all the time. And you're accused of apostasy if you ever step off what supposedly is, is your side of -- of the aisle.
Common sense led me to that position, but it's an empathetic position because I prefaced it, as I said before -- and you were sitting right there when I did it. I distanced myself, in fact, disagree strongly with those who try to use it to demonize trans people or use it as a culture war issue.
But as a simple matter of common sense. I wasn't saying -- people took this out of context, too. They said, well, there's no -- there's no women trying to play in the NBA, or NBA players trying to play in the WNBA. But I was using that as an example.
There's a reason why there are differences in sports, why the high school team doesn't play the college team, why there are women's sports to begin with, why Title IX was actually, in the best sense of the word, a progressive piece of legislation. It changed everything for girls and women in sports. Liberals embraced it, and they should continue to embrace it.
And it's neither transphobic nor illiberal to say, wait a minute. We've got a common sense issue here.
And it doesn't mean that we've given up our left-wing credentials, if that's what it is, or our support of women's sports. It just doesn't make sense -- (AUDIO GAP) -- previously, a man and went through puberty, to compete against women.
MICHAELSON: In terms of the larger issue you're bringing up, which is that a lot of stuff is reported inaccurately. Context doesn't seem to matter.
COSTAS: Right.
MICHAELSON: It's just kind of whatever gets clicks. It raises real questions about media literacy, which I know is something you're really passionate about.
COSTAS: Yes.
MICHAELSON: And this next generation, which has to figure out what is A.I. slop, what is disinformation, what's being put out by a Russian bot farm.
COSTAS: Yes.
MICHAELSON: How do you think we should educate the next generation on this very complicated but important issue?
COSTAS: I've been saying this for more than a decade, that media literacy is one of the most important things we can educate children and young adults about, beginning with -- with graduated levels of sophistication, beginning even in grade school, so that someone understands the difference between "The Wall Street Journal" or "The National Review" -- which would be credible, whether you agree with it or not, conservative or right-leaning outlets -- and something that's on the Internet, or something that's in the most extreme part of the right-wing media spectrum.
[00:40:19]
Being able to make those distinctions is not to tell someone what they should think, but to direct them toward credible sources of information, so that they can decide what they think, but do so with facts and credible opinions.
MICHAELSON: Don't you think that that, in itself, is almost an existential issue for democracy?
COSTAS: Yes.
MICHAELSON: That the democracy cannot survive unless you get good, accurate information? And people can't make decisions if it's all based off of this other stuff?
COSTAS: Well, yes, it absolutely is an existential question. And look, by now, this should not be a partisan issue. This should be about as controversial as saying that water is wet.
When the president of the United States is an absolute foreigner to the idea of honesty or truth or -- or just being straightforward, there's more than a trickle-down. It's a torrent now. It's changed the entire tone of our national conversation.
And in some cases, fighting fire with fire, those on the other side, if not leaning completely into it, as Trump and his acolytes do, they do some of the same thing themselves, because they think it's their only -- last resort.
But it's not good. It's not good in any way.
MICHAELSON: And some of those folks have been rewarded, because the most extreme voices are the ones that are often repeated and reshared --
COSTAS: Yes.
MICHAELSON: -- and often make the money off of those posts, just to the point that we started with, whether they're accurate or not. It's about being simple and explosive, not necessarily being nuanced. Hopefully --
COSTAS: Remember, Elex, they were eating the dogs, and they were eating the cats. And that wasn't some wacko -- might have been a wacko, but you usually don't expect to find a wacko in the Oval Office. That was the president of the United States saying that.
And that's just one of hundreds of examples of things which ought to make a reasonably intelligent and reasonably well-informed 12-year-old roll his or her eyes.
MICHAELSON: And the dogs and cats is a reference to what he said about Haitian immigrants in Ohio.
COSTAS: Right.
MICHAELSON: Something that was provably fact-checked at the time as being untrue.
Bob, you are staying with us, which we're grateful for. This was an important conversation, but we get to have a little more fun in our next hour, talking about your favorite sport of all, baseball.
And we are just hours away from the start of the World Series. The Brewers and the Rays, a matchup a lot of people wouldn't have guessed at the beginning of the season.
COSTAS: Yes.
MICHAELSON: You're going to break that down. And will we have baseball next season? That's when Bob Costas joins us later here on THE STORY IS.
Bob, thanks so much for being with us.
COSTAS: Thanks, Elex.
MICHAELSON: And still ahead, Brazil's presidential race grows increasingly bitter ahead of Sunday's runoff, with legal disputes and personal attacks. Our favorite Brazilian, Julia Vargas Jones, live here next with the preview.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:47:59]
MICHAELSON: Brazil's presidential candidates will face off Friday in their final televised debate before Sunday's runoff election.
Right-wing Senator Flavio Bolsonaro led the first round by nearly two percentage points, but polls show he is in a virtual tie with left- wing President Lula da Silva.
Julia Vargas Jones, CNN, is here with us on set. Julia, tight race. What can we expect on Sunday?
JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Extremely tight.
So, never in the history of Brazilian democracy has a candidate that lost in the first round actually made a comeback to win the second round. So, this could be different. But it most likely will not.
Now, there has never been a race this tight. So, the stakes are really, really high.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JONES (voice-over): This is one of the most popular campaign ads in Brazil's presidential election.
This one, too. Both are A.I.-generated videos that have added to the cacophony of A.I. content in this presidential race. IRL, it has also spilled over beyond Brazil's borders.
MAYOR: ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D), NEW YORK CITY: Such a pleasure to meet with President Lula.
JONES (voice-over): Both candidates making campaign stops on American soil. One boasting closeness, the other sovereignty.
LUIZ INACIO LULA DA SILVA, BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Brazilian democracy belongs to Brazilians.
JONES (voice-over): The incumbent, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, rose from the factory floor to become the defining figure of Brazil's modern left.
At 80 years old, he's seeking his fourth term. His opponent is almost half his age.
Senator Flavio Bolsonaro is campaigning as the political heir to his father, former President Jair Bolsonaro, now serving a 27-year sentence for plotting to overturn his 2022 election loss, when his supporters rioted in Brazil's capital, much like Trump supporters on January 6.
This election is also a test of whether Trump-style politics can return to power in Latin America's largest democracy.
[00:50:04]
JONES: The United States are looming so large in these elections, with supporters of Flavio Bolsonaro waving American flags in the streets. Some are even asking for a U.S. military intervention.
And it was in defense of Jair Bolsonaro that Trump announced those 50 percent tariffs on Brazil. So, why not endorse Flavio?
JAMES GREEN, PROFESSOR EMERITUS, BRAZILIAN STUDIES, BROWN UNIVERSITY: I think that they understand that this could backfire, because when they announced the original 50 percent tariffs, it gave a huge boost to his support.
There's a very strong national sentiment in the country that goes beyond the left, beyond the center. It's across the board.
Now, Flavio is using this to say, well, I have good relations with Trump, and therefore, I can negotiate the end of these high tariffs.
JONES (voice-over): And it's not just Trump drawing attention from Brazil.
Lula's campaign is also taking on Meta, accusing the U.S. tech giant of tilting its platform toward Bolsonaro, a claim the company denies.
The dispute has now reached Brazil's electoral court, and the streets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meta, no si Meta.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meta, no si Meta.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meta, no si Meta.
JONES (voice-over): All of this with the race already extraordinarily close.
In 2022, Lula won the first round by just over 5 percent. The runoff became the closest presidential election in Brazilian history.
This time, Flavio won the first round by less than 2 percent, or just 2.2 million votes, setting up an even tighter runoff. And while security, cost of living, and corruption are top of mind for voters, attacks have become quite personal.
FLAVIO BOLSONARO, BRAZILIAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
GRAPHIC: Lula, with you, crime has exploded in Brazil. In fact, can you explain why 73 percent of inmates voted for you?
DA SILVA: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
GRAPHIC: I wish it were 100 percent, including your father. Your father can vote for me.
JONES (voice-over): A Flavio win could pull Brazil politically closer to Washington, but ironically, Trump's tariffs have made it more complicated than that.
GREEN: Flavio will carry out a very close relationship with the United States, encouraging collaboration and the subservient role that Trump seems to want to have in all of Latin America.
But he has a big problem, because exports, Brazilian exports depend heavily now on China. It will be a complex foreign policy, but it will basically revolve around Trump.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: We just heard some of that. But it seems like big stakes for the United States here.
JONES: Yes, there's a lot, and there's two parts to this.
It's not just a loyalty from the administration to a former ally, Elex. It's really a political and then economical.
The political part is that Brazil is part of the Trump administration's Donroe Doctrine. Right? This Monroe Doctrine 2.0, reasserting U.S. dominance in the hemisphere, really broadening its footprint, and particularly driving China, Russia, Iran away from the region.
Now, Brazil is not only the largest democracy, the largest country. It's also the largest economy.
The second part, the economic part is that Brazil has the second largest reserves of rare earth minerals. Only after China. So, of course, the U.S., as it's trying to move away from China dependency, it's moving towards Brazil.
And already in some trade talks with members of the Brazilian administration now to try to have some access to those rare earth minerals. The problem is that Brazil and China are No. 1 trade partners.
So, in order to convince Brazil to give that up, it has to be a really good deal. Possible with the Bolsonaro government; very much out of the picture in the Lula government.
MICHAELSON: Big, big money we're talking about here. Julia Vargas Jones, thanks so much. Great report. Really appreciate that.
Still ahead, when we come back, a United Airlines flight hits turbulence so severe that multiple flight attendants needed medical attention. It's a live look at LAX, what we're talking about. Just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:58:52]
MICHAELSON: The FAA is investigating a United Airlines incident that left four flight attendants in need of medical attention.
It happened after the plane experienced severe turbulence while approaching Los Angeles international airport Wednesday night. The airline says one of the flight attendants was sent to the hospital for treatment.
None of the 190 passengers on the flight from Honolulu were injured, but some of them said the ordeal was horrific.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAMI DANDOY, UNITED AIRLINES PASSENGER: That plane just dropped, and I was looking at her across the aisle and I saw her head almost hit the top.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had my seat belt on, though.
DANDOY: It -- we didn't -- our butts were not on the seat.
CORAL PENA, UNITED AIRLINES PASSENGER: There was like a huge bang. And then we just started falling, and I was, like, oh my God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see the flight attendants at the time? DANDOY: No, we didn't see it happen to them, but one of them came up
and she had blood down her head and her leg and stuff. And, and then there was another one in the back that needed to be taken off the airplane. It was scary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Scary.
Meanwhile, severe storms have battered parts of Northern Arizona, bringing damaging winds, golf-ball-sized hail. Possible tornado reported in Wednesday evening, but that has not been confirmed.
The storms swept through the state overnight into Thursday after severe weather prompted Arizona's first tornado watch since 2010. And while the worst of the storm moving out, heavy rain has raised concerns about flash flooding in that state.
