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What We Know with Max Foster

White House: Tariff Ruling Example of "Judicial Overreach"; Fed Chairman Meets With Trump At White House; Leaders Discuss Trade & Innovation Amid Global Uncertainty; U.S. Will "Aggressively Revoke" Chinese Student Visas; Elon Musk Leaving Trump Administration; Judge To Bar Trump Admin. From Making Changes To Harvard's Student Visa Program Indefinitely; U.S. Appeals Court Reinstates Trump Tariffs During Appeal; White House: Israel Has Accepted New U.S. Ceasefire Proposal. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired May 29, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:27]

MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: A judge tells Donald Trump that many of his sweeping global tariffs are illegal. I'm at the Astana International Forum in

Kazakhstan. I'll be getting reaction from leaders.

ELENI GIOKOS, CNN HOST: And I'm Eleni Giokos, and I'll be bringing you the days other top stories, including a victory for Harvard University in its

fight with the Trump administration.

This is WHAT WE KNOW.

The White House is calling a U.S. court ruling blocking most of President Donald Trump's tariffs an example of judicial overreach. The U.S. Court of

International Trade ruled that the president didn't have the authority to impose all of those levies, including the ones he issued back on so-called

liberation day. A second federal court made a similar ruling today.

The Justice Department is appealing, and the administration says it will take the case to the U.S. Supreme Court if it has to.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The courts should have no role here. There is a troubling and dangerous trend of unelected judges

inserting themselves into the presidential decision-making process. America cannot function if President Trump or any other president, for that matter,

has their sensitive diplomatic or trade negotiations railroaded by activist judges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GIOKOS: Well, the last the latest chapter in this tariff showdown has once again left economies, consumers and investors around the world in a state

of uncertainty.

I want to take a look at how U.S. markets closed a little earlier today. Little change. Slight upside on the S&P 500 and Nasdaq, but mostly driven

by uncertainty when it has to come when it comes to tariffs. And frankly, there's been a lot of whiplash around trade confrontations that we've seen

playing out on a global scale.

So, what does this all mean?

We've got Anna Stewart joining us in a moment from London. And we've also got CNN chief U.S. national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny live in

Washington.

Welcome to both of you.

Jeff, I want to start with you. This three-judge panel at the U.S. Court of International Trade blocking Trump's global tariffs, saying that President

Trump, lacking the authority to impose these tariffs. We know there's an appeal. And now, there's a question of whether this is going to go to the

Supreme Court.

So, what are you hearing?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That certainly is the central question hanging over all of this. And the administration is

really scrambling to try and put this back together. This ruling last night by a somewhat obscure federal court to trade court in New York, really

upends the administration's entire trade agenda. So, if an appellate court does not step in and effectively block or hold that ruling, we're told the

administration will take this to the Supreme Court as early as tomorrow.

But it is very much an open question what the Supreme Court will do to this, talking to a variety of court watchers and analysts. They don't often

take kindly to sort of jumping the gun, if you will, by going around the appellate process. So, we shall see what the Supreme Court does.

But at the heart and the center of all of this is the judge -- the three- judge panel, a Reagan appointee and Obama appointee, and a Trump appointee. The judges here, we should point out, are saying the president simply does

not have the authority under the Emergency Economic Powers Act of 1977, that he has based all of his trade policy on.

So, this is really something that has been at the heart of the administration's economic agenda as well. They're hoping to use these

tariffs to effectively pay for their tax cut extension bill. That's sort of slugging away through Congress here.

So, this is the biggest legal blow the Trump administration has seen so far. They've seen many of them, of course, but this is certainly the

biggest one. And it's likely is going to end up in the Supreme Court.

GIOKOS: Yeah, I mean it's certainly pausing the Trump tariff plan. Whether it's going to fully derail, that's the question. But in the meantime, Anna,

this ruling is coming as were seeing a push for deals. So, what does it mean for trading partners currently in bilateral talks as we speak?

ANNA STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's no doubt that any country looking to negotiate on trade and reduce their tariff on non-tariff

barriers to the U.S., the driver has been the tariffs, particularly the reciprocal tariffs. So, this has weakened the U.S.'s position. However,

there are sort of two categories. I'd say there are those countries who have been dragging their feet slightly with negotiations, who are a little

bit reluctant, who have domestic pressure at home to not bow down too much to the U.S., then there are those in active negotiations, like the E.U.,

who are really trying to get a trade deal done.

[15:05:03]

Now, I expect negotiations will continue in earnest while all these trading partners consider whether the legal recourse the appeals process actually

works for the White House, but also whether or not the White House might go down a different avenue. There are many sections of the trade legislation

in the U.S. that they could use. There are four different sections that perhaps the White House could turn to, to try and redirect tariffs another

way.

So I think for many nations they will have to continue negotiating in earnest, knowing that tariffs is very much the cornerstone of President

Trump's policy. And they're not going to want to rock the boat at this stage. They only have until July the 9th, potentially to get some of these

deals done.

GIOKOS: Yeah, a bit of an uncertainty injected in these talks. But I think that's been the name of the game for some time.

Jeff, President Trump meeting with Federal Chair Jerome Powell, and it basically underpins Trump's efforts to try and bring interest rates down.

The Fed chair making it clear that he has a mandate and sticking to that point. What do we know about how the conversation went down?

ZELENY: Look, any time the president is meeting with the chair of the Federal Reserve, it certainly raises eyebrows, particularly because of the

contentious relationship between these two men, largely on the president's part. Look, he's called for the firing of Jerome Powell. He's called him

every name in the book. He's been very frustrated. The White House has been frustrated by the fact that the interest rates have not lowered. The

Federal Reserve has not lowered the interest rates.

So, we don't know exactly the tone and tenor of that private meeting earlier. But the fact that they met certainly is very interesting. The

White House has said they still believe that the Federal Reserve should lower interest rates right now. And the Federal Reserve has said that

they're going to use economic indicators, not political pressure here.

But the bigger question, I think, is, is the president continuing to sort of gyrate and make moves to either replace him early? His term expires next

year. So that is sort of an unknown here, but certainly, it drew some attention that they had a meeting at all today, certainly unusual.

GIOKOS: Yeah, absolutely. Jeff Zeleny, Anna Stewart, thanks so much for that update.

Max Foster and Hanako Montgomery are on assignment in Astana. I think Max and Hanako are enjoying the good food, but I also know very good

conversation at the international forum, Max.

FOSTER: Yeah, the food is excellent. You're right. But yeah, we're here because we wanted to speak to political and business leaders. Some

diplomats as well about, you know, the uncertainty in the world right now. Youve obviously got the wars going on, and then you've got just what you've

been talking about there. U.S. economy, interest rates, tariffs. How do you deal with all of that?

Hanako has been spending the day speaking to people. I got a sense that people were quite resigned to this. Now they just want an outcome. They're

not hanging on every word. They're just trying to find a way through it.

HANAKO MONTGOMERY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I would agree with you, Max. I think, you know, today during one of my panels, I asked a panelist how they would

describe the current state of global trade, and the word they chose was chaotic. And I think that really encapsulates what a lot of people are

feeling. I mean, it's just complete and utter chaos, right? It changes day to day, and it's difficult to sort of keep up with the headlines. It's

difficult to keep up with the day-to-day developments, right?

So, they're trying to wait for this outcome. They're trying to see what their plan will be. In fact, here's some of the sentiment that we've been

hearing from people here at the Astana International Forum.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARS-HENDRIK ROLLER, FOUNDER & CHAIR, BERLIN GLOBAL DIALOGUE: We have global problems. Nobody alone can solve that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that's why we exist, especially with the challenges were facing globally.

ANTE SUSNJAR, CROATIAN ECONOMY MINISTER: We are asking for the U.S. side, for de-escalation of this -- let's -- so-called tariff war.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our biggest challenge at the moment is, frankly, resources. It's, of course, the United States has cut back a lot of its

humanitarian support, but they're not the only one.

ROLLER: Let's work together and let's not have zero sum. Let's look for win-win situations, because I don't think in the end, this is going to be

the good world I want to live in.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that's part of why we're here at this forum, in this region in particular.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MONTGOMERY: Now, a key and underlying theme, I think, Max, is the fact that the U.S. is no longer this steady and predictable trading partner for much

of the world. So, countries in Asia and in Europe are trying to find different solutions.

So I think part of the conversation that we're having here at this forum is how can countries decide what to do with their futures, how they can

actually work on different relationships outside of this perimeter, outside of this paradigm we've been seeing with the United States, traditionally,

they're coming up with different deals that they can do without the United States, and they're finding these different solutions. And I think from

here on out, we'll be seeing a lot more of that.

FOSTER: And I'm not saying necessarily foes come together, but it was interesting speaking to the Croatian minister, you know, the European Union

is always full of endless internal debate and arguments.

[15:10:07]

And he was talking about how actually this has brought countries together again, because there's this united feeling around the fact that they have

to come up with a solution together. But you also heard, I've heard a similar debate amongst Central Asian countries as well. It's as if it's

bringing other countries, regions together, this whole process.

MONTGOMERY: Right. It's almost an opportunity in a way, but kind of borne out of necessity, right? You're looking at this ally of much of the world,

and it's no longer an ally in the traditional sense. They're trying to find solutions again to, to deal with this trade war that seems to not end. It's

currently developing in different ways, in ways that could potentially hurt a lot of countries.

We heard from minister delegate, actually from France today, for French nationals abroad. And he also said that it was necessary right now for

countries to work on different relationships, bilateral ties, again outside of the United States and potentially multilateral ties. But again, without

considering the United States as sort of this bedrock of trade that is very secure and stable for the world's economic future.

FOSTER: It almost makes peoples brains explode when they then have to consider the conflicts going on in the world as well, because it's such a

distraction, distraction, isn't it? You've got the Middle East, all the nations around there, you've got Europe and also central, you know, Central

Asia affected by Ukraine. A country like Kazakhstan is close to Russia and the European Union and the U.S.

MONTGOMERY: Yeah. I mean, it's happening on its doorstep, right? The Russian invasion of Ukraine.

But I think also it means that now middle economies, middle powers are trying to find different ways of working with one another, working with

other, perhaps bigger powers in Europe and in Asia to find solutions to these problems.

One of the economists I was speaking to today said how really we've seen how the United States is pulling back from this idea of multilateralism, of

pulling back from this idea that the U.S. should be a bigger power, helping these countries develop, helping these economies develop, and really what

that means, because right now, what we need to be seeing is countries coming together, coming together to solve the climate crisis, coming

together to solve the war in Ukraine, like you mentioned, and other security risks.

But really, again, that's not what we're seeing. And right now, it's just how can these countries come together? How can they develop trade

agreements that are mutually beneficial and potentially also sustainable, right, and can withstand any other developments we might see.

FOSTER: Reliable.

MONTGOMERY: Reliable, exactly.

FOSTER: Okay. Thank you so much.

A lot of countries recalibrating their relationships with U.S. quite often, their main trading partner.

We'll have more on this throughout the show. Eleni will have more of the other stories after the break, too.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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GIOKOS: China is now the latest target of the Trump administration concerning student visas. Secretary of State Marco Rubio says the U.S.

will, quote, aggressively revoke visas for Chinese students, especially those with connections to the Chinese Communist Party. The Trump

administration plans to revise visa criteria for students from mainland China and Hong Kong.

State Department spokesperson Tammy Bruce cited security concerns a short while ago. Listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAMMY BRUCE, SPOKESPERSON, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT: Over the last few days, Secretary Rubio has announced new visa policies that put America first. I'm

sure none of you have any questions about those.

The State Department is determined to protect Americans right to free speech and to counter the malign influence and actions of the Chinese

Communist Party. The bottom line, we are using and will continue to use every tool in our tool chest to make sure that we know who it is, who wants

to come into this country, and if they should be allowed to come in. Every sovereign nation has a right to secure its borders and to make sure they

know who is in their nation and if they are safe to be here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GIOKOS: Well, joining us now from the U.S. State Department, we've got CNN's Kylie Atwood.

Kylie, good to see you. I mean, for context here, between 2023 and `24, 270,000 Chinese students were in the United States.

So, what does Marco Rubio's plan? How do they plan to enforce it? What more do we know?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Well, it's a really good question. This policy was rolled out late last night, and we're still

trying to figure out exactly how the State Department is going to implement this, because the impact could be enormous. You state that figure, that

large figure, more than 270,000 Chinese students studying in the United States in 2023 to 2024. And before COVID, the number was actually even

grander than that.

So there are tremendous number of Chinese students who are now going to be under scrutiny, they're already here in the United States, because the

administration is going to be looking at who they are, who they have connections to, and we should note that obviously, there is already in

place a visa vetting process at the State Department.

But what the State Department is now doing under the leadership of the Trump administration is taking a look at that vetting process and changing

it in some instances. So the State Department did say that there would be visa revocations for Chinese students, particularly those who have

connections to the CCP, and those who are studying in critical fields here in the United States.

But we don't know exactly how they're defining critical fields. Obviously, there are many different fields of study that could be in that bucket. We

just don't know what that looks like yet. So, we'll watch to see how this plays out, particularly, of course, as they are also taking action across

the board for any students applying to the United States right now, they are looking to bolster the social media vetting process as well.

GIOKOS: Yeah. I mean, and frankly, this is a blow to higher education institutions because we've ascertained just the large number of Chinese

students in the United States, but it is actually also a threat to the tense bilateral relations. And there's been talk about trying to de-

escalate. This is going to go in the opposite direction.

ATWOOD: Yeah. That's right. I mean, early in the hours after this was announced inside China, our reporting team in Asia said that there was not

a quick response to this, indicating that Chinese officials may have been taken off guard by the fact that this was announced. Obviously, Chinese

students who come to the United States come in all different kinds, right? Some of them are the children of Chinese politicians, but some of them are

the children of Chinese people who have worked and saved their livelihoods to be able to send their children to the United States, to go to university

there.

So, it's not just a one-size-fits-all situation here. We have obviously heard from the Chinese foreign ministry in the hours following this

announcement, then saying it was politically motivated and discriminatory, but will really have to watch and see if this has any impact at all on the

tense trade situation between the two countries because there's presumably some sort of connection here.

[15:20:06]

We have seen, obviously, trade talks begin between the two nations, but they have not succeeded. There are no more talks that are on the books

right now. So, we're watching how all of these pieces could play a role in affecting one another.

GIOKOS: Yeah. All right. Kylie Atwood, thank you so much for that update.

Now, Elon Musk's time at the U.S. Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE, is over. The tech billionaire used his special employee status to

upend the government by overseeing major cuts to the federal workforce, announcing his departure on social media, he thanked President Trump for,

quote, the opportunity to reduce wasteful spending.

A White House official said Wednesday that Musk would begin offboarding that night. Musk's exit comes after he raised concerns over Mr. Trump's

sweeping tax and spending cut packages.

For more on this, we've got CNN's Matt Egan standing by.

I mean, Matt, to be honest, this has been this relationship and just how much time Elon Musk would spend at DOGE was always in question. And it

seems that perhaps they didn't see eye to eye on spending cuts as well as on tax cuts.

Give us a sense of what this ultimately means. And I guess the impact that Elon Musk had on the Trump administration.

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Eleni, from the perspective of Tesla shareholders, this exit from the White House could not come fast enough,

right? There have been growing concerns that Elon Musk was being distracted from his very challenging day job of running this very complicated and

important company in Tesla. And also, there was concerns that Elon Musk's brand was becoming too associated with that of the White House and the

Trump administration, and that was doing damage to Tesla's sales, especially in Europe.

In fact, this week, there was a group of shareholders that just put out a list of demands to Tesla regarding Elon Musk. They want Elon Musk to commit

to 40 hours a week at Tesla at least, right? And they want the board to link Elon Musk's compensation to his commitment to the company. They're

also calling for the board of directors to lay out a clear CEO succession plan, and to add truly independent board members to their list of board of

directors.

And all of this, of course, is coming as Elon Musk stepping away from DOGE. But he's got so many other things going on right now, right? I mean, his

business empire, it's broader than just Tesla. You're talking about xAI, his A.I. startup. Theres Neuralink, the brain computer chip startup. Theres

the Boring Company, X, the social media company, and the rocket ship company SpaceX.

So, he's got a lot going on. In this letter from shareholders, they write that the board must ensure that Tesla is not treated as just one among many

competing obligations. Tesla deserves a CEO whose time and attention aligns with the scale of the responsibilities at hand.

And look, all of this is coming after Tesla has been embroiled in a crisis, right? I mean, we've seen the stock price fall sharply earlier this year,

right? It's off the lows, but it's really taken a hit because of these concerns about sales. We've seen sales plunge in Europe and there's a lot

of competition right now facing this company.

When you think about all of the EVs coming out of China right now. So, I do think at the end of the day, Tesla shareholders have got to be relieved

that Elon Musk is stepping away from the administration and focusing on his already very challenging day job.

GIOKOS: Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure it wasn't just viewed as a distraction, but rather a full-time job.

Matt Egan, good to have you. Thank you so much.

All right. Harvard University got a major legal victory on graduation day. A U.S. judge says she will order the Department of Homeland Security and

State Department to not make any changes to Harvard's student visa program. These details being hashed out in a courtroom near today's graduation

celebrations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN GARBER, HARVARD PRESIDENT: Welcome.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GIOKOS: The thunderous applause welcoming in Harvard's president Alan Garber, who has been the public face of the schools fight against the Trump

administration.

Weve got Katelyn Polantz who's been following this story. We're seeing this image -- these images, a big applause there. And a significant date.

Tell us what the judge had to say and the details.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: The judge in this case, she does not want any changes to be made to the Trump

administration's plans to block international students from coming to Harvard University. So, the student visa program is going to stay in place

at Harvard indefinitely, a program that affects more than 7,000 students coming from 140 or more countries around the world to study at this

university in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

[15:25:03]

In court today, it was short, but the judge was very clear from the start of the hearing. The status quo should remain, and she didn't want the

administration to do anything that could disrupt this long-standing program at Harvard to allow international students on their campus.

Now, the administration has done a couple different things here to try and get out from under the judge. It's not working, though. They originally

told Harvard that they were immediately revoking the student visa program, and then shortly just before this hearing, right before midnight last

night, the Trump administration said, well, it won't be immediate. We'll give you 30 days to appeal administratively to us. And then they went to

court this morning telling the judge, it's all moot. We don't need to be here. That was not enough.

So, the judge now is hashing out the legal language on exactly what the court order will be over, the Trump administration, the Department of

State, the Department of Homeland Security.

But right now, this is still a major case. It will move forward. And there's big claims Harvard is making that they are being retaliated against

and that their constitutional rights, their first amendment privilege, is being hurt by the Trump administration in not just this situation, but also

every single thing the Trump administration is trying to do toward Harvard politically as well as financially, the pooling of grant funding. There's a

lot of different cases at play. This was just one today, a big hearing with a resolution in Harvard's favor, at least for now.

GIOKOS: Absolutely. A really big move there.

Give me a sense of what you're anticipating, because the Trump administration is not going to back down on this. They've been very

vehement about their plans on the overall visa for international students and the process.

How can they react? What's the response that you're anticipating?

POLANTZ: Well, there already was that shift late last night where it went from a hardball approach toward Harvard, from the Trump administration to

giving them a little more leeway to actually have that thing that Harvard said they weren't getting, due process, to have the administrative process

to allow student visas or to talk to the administration about the student visa program.

But the thing that that we're watching here now, at least I'm watching for, is every time somebody like the Department of Education Secretary Linda

McMahon, anyone from Homeland Security or the State Department, even Trump himself, any time they're saying they're open to coming to the table with

Harvard means that there could be a possibility where the Trump administration reverses course, even more, that there would be a

negotiation.

But keep in mind, there's money here at stake, too. It's not just international students. So, unless there was some sort of backing down of

Trump on the money, then that would -- that would be what would be needed to resolve this entire dispute, Trump v. Harvard.

GIOKOS: All right. Katelyn Polantz, great to have you with us. Thank you so much.

And still to come from Astana, Donald Trump says he'll give Vladimir Putin two weeks to prove he's serious about peace in Ukraine. And I'll get the

European perspective from the Council of Europe. We're coming back right after this short break.

Stay with CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:32:12]

FOSTER: Welcome back. I'm Max Foster at the Astana International Forum in Kazakhstan, business leaders, political leaders, diplomatic leaders all

gathering, trying to make sense of all this change we've got in the world at the moment.

One part of that is conflict. Of course, we have heard from the Russian foreign ministry. They will be meeting with Ukraine in Istanbul on Monday.

So, a sense of progress, at least there. It's according to the foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov. He adds that Russia will present a memorandum to

Ukraine that sets out Russia's position on what he calls overcoming the root causes of the crisis.

Lavrov has also been in touch with U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio. During their phone call, Rubio praised the recent prisoner exchange and

reiterated President Trump's call for a constructive good faith dialogue in the talks.

I'm joined by Alain Berset. He's secretary-general of the Council of Europe.

And Russia was famously expelled from the council because of this war very early on, right?

ALAIN BERSET, SECRETARY-GENERAL, COUNCIL OF EUROPE: Exactly, one month after the full scale invasion in `22, the Council of Europe decided to

expel Russia. It was not possible to work with a member addressing another member, and destroying all the values we stand for. I mean, the rule of

law, human rights and democracy.

FOSTER: So for people watching, broadly speaking, you work around the human rights issue away from the European Union, but with the European union.

BERSET: We are the oldest multilateral organization in Europe, 46 member states created in 1949, just after the Second World War. And just with this

motto, never again. And based on the support for democracy, rule of law and human rights with all the members of the E.U. also being member of the

Council of Europe. But we are also plus 19 members. Turkey, for example, a founding member of the Council of Europe or Ukraine or Moldova or U.K.

also.

FOSTER: Yes. So, with Russia not a member, you can't take a case against them, but you are actually pursuing cases from the beginning of the war.

BERSET: We are, yes, because we have the European Court of Human Rights and for all the violations of human rights between the `14 and `22, it is

possible to address this. And we have also other elements for accountability. I mean, it's probably the main element not having Russia as

a member. It allows the Council of Europe to be effective about the accountability for what's happening in Ukraine.

FOSTER: So, you can literally put a sum on that, right? Is that the idea?

BERSET: Well, it's a bit early now because the war is ongoing, as everybody knows, but we are with the Register of Damage, you know, this creation of

the Council of Europe.

FOSTER: But just explain that, the Register of Damage.

BERSET: It is a possibility for Ukraine to -- and for people living in Ukraine to ask for the registration of the damage that they have because of

the war.

[15:35:01]

You know, damage is a word saying not that much, but it can be the death of, you know, of parents. It can be the destruction of the housing. And the

next element will be clearly to have accountability based on this register. We are working on this with the member states, and it is an ongoing work.

FOSTER: But that will effectively come up with a figure, right? Which is you'll end up with a figure. You know, cost of the war.

BERSET: Sure. But we will have a number of damage registered. It is, well, developing very fast at the moment. More than 30,000. And then we will

develop what we call the claims commission with the aim to -- well, to recognize the damages and to see what is it possible to do, to have

accountability and to have a -- well, a correction for this.

FOSTER: So that would be over to the European Union to try to find some sort of accountability.

BERSET: It will be around the states ready to do this. And at the moment for the register and for the work that we have, we have -- I mean, all the

-- well, we have members of the Council of Europe. We have also all the G7 members on board because it is important to have a large scope of state

supporting the issue.

FOSTER: Okay. Alain Berset, thank you very much for spending your time with us tonight. It's late. You had an early start.

BERSET: Thank you.

FOSTER: You've got a long day tomorrow. Thank you so much for joining us.

I think we can cross to Anna now because there's been an update on events in the U.S. and tariffs and other twists, probably, Anna.

STEWART: There's always another twist and a little bit of confusion. Right now, we have a temporary pause. This is from the United States Court of

Appeals for the federal circuit. They are putting a temporary pause on the decision from the lower court last night which, of course, said that they

weren't going to uphold President Trump's tariffs in terms of the reciprocal tariffs.

This is a temporary pause. They're asking that both sides provide written arguments on the question of the blocking of Trump's tariffs to be filed

early next month. So essentially what we have here is a minor victory for the White House. It's a temporary reprieve that allows both sides to get

their arguments in order, essentially.

And it delays this question as to whether the tariffs would suddenly have to be lifted. The 10 percent baseline, for instance, for most countries in

the world, the 30 percent on China, the 25 percent tariffs on Canada and Mexico. So, considerably different to just a few moments ago.

It's an ever-changing beast, Max, at this stage. But yes, this court is declaring that they will put a pause on Wednesday nights ruling from the

court of international trade. Tariffs are still on for now.

FOSTER: Okay, we've got some vague certainty there then for now, as ever.

Anna, thank you so much. We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:40:53]

FOSTER: Migration has really become one of the defining issues of the era. with the rise of right-wing politics, often focused, very centrally on

migration issues, but also with the conflicts that we've seen rising up around the world, creating yet more migration issues asylum seekers looking

for places to go. And we were looking today at some figures around the number of people who die leaving conflict zones. And the numbers are

extraordinary in the tens of thousands.

One of the people trying to work in this area is Amy Pope. So she's director general of the International Organization of Migration, trying to

make sure migrants aren't forgotten in the whole humanitarian effort that follows many of these crises.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMY POPE, DIRECTOR GENERAL, INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR MIGRATION: The best we can do is to enable safe pathways, safe migration, so that people

are not migrating across the Mediterranean Sea, not showing up at the U.S. border, desperate, with no options, we see and the polling results will

show that public is reacting to a perception that that borders are not being managed effectively. What we as an organization can do is help

countries to better manage their borders, to better identify who's coming and going, to better create options for people who are destabilized so that

they are not moving from country to country, and they can find better opportunities closer to home.

FOSTER: But you do get caught up in it, don't you? When you -- there's a, you know, a particular government who is keen on deporting people and then

you're brought in and then it's called voluntary deportation. And that's very difficult for you in terms of messaging presumably.

POPE: It's difficult for messaging, but more importantly from our perspective, is that we can be an option for someone to be treated

humanely, to be treated with dignity. In many cases, we're able to help people get home and then find opportunities at home so we can be a bridge

between what can be a very enforcement-oriented conversation and something that ultimately can lead to a better outcome.

FOSTER: So, you only get involved when they wanted to leave. You'd never get involved when -- you know, you're not being brought in to send people

out who don't want to leave.

POPE: We don't do deportations, so we're working with people who want to go home. And interestingly, I found, for example, I was in Latin America just

a couple of weeks ago, what I heard from many of their leaders was, we want you to be involved because people will have savings, they'll have skills.

They lose all of that when they're being deported.

And so, the more that they can -- they can leave voluntarily. They can manage their affairs responsibly. It actually enables them to have some

kind of safe landing. Once they get home.

FOSTER: You become busier when there are wars. It's inevitable, right? And you -- you know, your organization was born out of a war.

POPE: Right.

FOSTER: We now have so many wars. More wars. So how are you coping with that?

POPE: We are on the ground in some of the world's most challenging places. We have a team in Sudan where there are 11 million people who've been

displaced. The biggest displacement crisis in the world.

We have teams in places like the Democratic Republic of Congo, where we have 7 million people displaced in Afghanistan and Ukraine. Around the

world, where there are people who are being pushed to leave, where there to help provide basic life-saving support.

Our biggest challenge at the moment is, frankly, resources. It's, of course, the United States has cut back a lot of its humanitarian support,

but they're not the only one. And that means that even as more people are fleeing conflict, more people are fleeing circumstances that are unbearable

at home. The resources to help them achieve more stability have decreased significantly. That's the worrisome part.

FOSTER: Are you finding countries with right wing, you know, hard, right. Governments are still willing to support you because they want to

facilitate a lot of this movement. Or are you finding that they just don't want anything to do with any sort of organization that is about migration?

[15:45:04]

POPE: It depends on the government. We find for many governments, they want to have development or humanitarian policies that stabilize people closer

to home. That's a place where the politics of the government we're working with almost doesn't matter, right? They're looking to find more effective

and often more efficient ways of dealing with the issue. And frankly, that's our message to governments is be careful about what you cut.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GIOKOS: Amy Pope, the director general of the International Organization of Migration, speaking to Max Foster in Astana for us.

Now, for the third straight day of operations for a new U.S. Israeli backed aid effort in Gaza, and we're seeing chaotic scenes amid reports of

casualties. Take a look.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

GIOKOS: Video from one new distribution site appears to show security contractors firing stun grenades at Palestinians waiting for food. Three

sites are now up and running for Gaza's 2 million people. Palestinians are crowding the sites desperate for food after a months-long Israeli blockade.

Gaza's health ministry says 11 people have been killed at distribution sites in the past three days. And yesterday, the foundation running the

operation denied there were any casualties.

The White House says Israel has now accepted a new U.S. proposal for a ceasefire with Hamas. Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt announced the news a

short time ago, adding that discussions are continuing and the U.S. hopes a deal is reached so the hostages can come home. Asked if Hamas has also

accepted the truce, she said not to my knowledge.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond has more now on the details of a U.S. ceasefire proposal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen, this is the latest U.S. proposal for a temporary ceasefire between Israel and Hamas,

one that could lead to an end to the war if the negotiations between the two sides are successful but for the time being, what this latest proposal

involves will be the release of 10 living hostages, 18 deceased hostages in exchange 60-day ceasefire. This would also presumably include the release

of Palestinian prisoners, as well as the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza. And during that 60-day ceasefire, they would be negotiating an end to

the war with Steve Witkoff, President Trump's special envoy for the region, told me earlier this week he would personally preside over.

That's a gambit to try and give Hamas the assurances it has been seeking that Israel will actually negotiate a permanent ceasefire, which it failed

to do during that last temporary ceasefire earlier this year.

We are now into the first week of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation being operational in the Gaza strip. This is that controversial U.S. and Israeli-

backed mechanism for getting aid into Gaza in a way that it will prevent Hamas from getting its hands on the aid, which is an allegation Israel has

made, but which humanitarian aid organizations have said they've seen no evidence to substantiate. We've already seen 11 people killed near these

distribution sites, according to the Palestinian ministry of health. We know that there has been Israeli gunfire in the area. The Israelis have

said that it was aimed at dispersing the crowds.

But clearly, we have seen video of individuals who were struck by some of that gunfire. And what's also clear is that the humanitarian situation in

Gaza simply has not been alleviated as of yet, and that's why we are seeing such scenes of desperation at the moment, not only around these

distribution sites, but it is especially acute in the northern part of the Gaza Strip, where this new Gaza humanitarian foundation is not yet

operational, and where the Israeli authorities have really provided almost no safe routes for the United Nations to drive its trucks to the northern

part of the Gaza strip.

And amid all of this, we are seeing the desperation of Palestinians as we reach a grim milestone of more than 54,000 who have been killed in this

war.

And all of this has led the Palestinian ambassador to the United Nations to break down this week in this emotional moment. Watch.

RIYAD MANSOUR, PALESTINIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: It is unbearable. How could anyone tolerate this horror?

Excuse me, Mr. President. I have grandchildren. I know what they mean to their families. And to see the situation of the Palestinians without us

having hearts to do something is beyond the ability of any normal human being to tolerate.

DIAMOND: And all of this comes as we have reached more than 600 days of this war, 600 days as well of the captivity of the Israeli hostages in

Gaza.

[15:50:06]

And it is important to note that those former hostages, like Keith Siegel, an Israeli American who I interviewed earlier this week, they want to see

the war end. They believe that a diplomatic deal is the only way to get the hostages out of Gaza alive. And they are calling on the Israeli government

and on Hamas to reach this deal in order for the hostages to come out and for the war to end.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GIOKOS: All right. Jeremy Diamond there for us.

Well, many world leaders are walking a tightrope when it comes to trade deals with the United States. And after the break, we go back to Kazakhstan

with that country's take on making a deal with the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: Welcome back to Kazakhstan.

It's a country which, like many countries around the world, has the U.S. as its main trading partner. And it has all of this disruption around the

tariffs we've been reporting in the show to consider one of the things the U.S. is most interested in in Kazakhstan is its huge deposits of rare

earths. Weve seen how they signed a deal with Ukraine, hoping to sign one with Kazakhstan as well.

This is all about the future of technology, A.I., and having the minerals available to be able to produce those industries in the United States. I

had a word with the deputy foreign minister here about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALIBEK KUANTYROV, KAZAKHSTAN'S DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER: The American side, will is definitely interested in the rare earth metals, and we are ready to

provide that. And more than that, we already have some agreements on rare earth metals, probably oil and gas, and also, mostly maybe exporting more

goods like cars and other ready-made goods, ready made goods to our country in order to stabilize the trade deficit that the United States is having

with Kazakhstan.

FOSTER: Yes. But yeah, because you have a huge amount of money investment, don't you, from America?

KUANTYROV: Well, the United States is the largest investor if we count by country. So more than $62 billion have been invested into Kazakhstan's

economy, mostly, of course, in the oil and gas sector. So, we have large American companies working in the oil and gas. These are Chevron and Exxon

Mobil. And since we do protect all the investments, I think there is no risk about that. And the only thing now is just to make a trade deal that

the United States wants from us and from other countries.

[15:55:03]

FOSTER: You have good relations with many countries, including Russia and Ukraine. Do you have a role to play there in calming tensions?

KUANTYROV: Well, Kazakhstan is always ready to provide a platform, and we have done so during serious talks. And also provided platform at some stage

for Azerbaijan and Armenia. And, of course, we are ready to do that at any part of time when it is necessary because we have both good relations with

Russia and Ukraine, although with Ukraine we do not have shared borders, but we have some shared history. And Kazakhstan also helped with

humanitarian aid to Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: And that is WHAT WE KNOW from Kazakhstan today.

Up next, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" with Jim.

END

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