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What We Know with Max Foster

Sources: Hegseth Didn't Inform White House Of Ukraine Weapons Pause; White House Announces New Tariffs On Seven Countries; President Trump Hosts African Leaders At White House; Trump: Israel & Hamas "Very Close" To Ceasefire Deal; At Least 119 Dead, 170-Plus Missing In Texas Flash Floods. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired July 09, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:23]

LYNDA KINKADE, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Ukraine comes under record. Russian bombardment as U.S. President Donald Trump says he hasn't looked into who

ordered a pause on weapons shipments to Kyiv.

I'm Lynda Kinkade, in for Max Foster. Good to have you with us. This is WHAT WE KNOW.

Well, as Ukraine suffers its biggest ever attack from Russian drones, there's confusion over who is calling the shots in the White House over

Americas support for Kyiv. New CNN reporting has found that U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has stopped weapon shipments to Ukraine without

informing the president about that pause. The move was overturned by Donald Trump shortly after it was announced.

When asked about the decision earlier, Trump denied he was being kept out of the loop.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: You say that such a big decision could be made inside your government without you knowing.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would know. If a decision was made, I will know. I'll be the first to know. In fact, most likely I'd

give the order, but I haven't done that yet.

Yeah, please.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KINKADE: Overnight, the drone bombardment of Ukraine continues. Tuesday night saw Russia's largest ever attack, involving more than 700 drones,

according to Ukraine's air force. One person in western Ukraine was killed.

Natasha Bertrand is in Washington and joins us now live.

Good to see you, Natasha.

So, Ukraine obviously desperately needs more weapons right now to handle this onslaught from Russia. But the big question is why the White House

paused the weapons shipments.

What are you learning about the decision that was made?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Lynda. So essentially what happened is the president wanted an assessment of U.S.

weapons stockpiles globally, and he asked for that from Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth last month when there was a war going on between Iran

and Israel and U.S. troops in the Middle East were essentially caught in the crossfire of that. President Trump wanted to make sure that those

troops had all the munitions that they needed. And so, he asked Secretary Hegseth to conduct a review of the available U.S. weapons stockpiles.

And so, what happened was Hegseth then took that request, and he delegated it downwards to his undersecretary of defense for policy, who's essentially

the policy chief for the whole Pentagon. And that person, Elbridge Colby, he ultimately recommended that the weapons shipment that was supposed to go

to Ukraine should be stopped entirely as a part of this ongoing Pentagon review into munitions availability and stockpiles. Secretary Hegseth then

signed off on that recommendation.

And we're told that there was then kind of a breakdown in communication, to say the least, because he signed off on this pause. But no one at the White

House appeared to be aware that he had done so. And that includes President Trump, that includes the Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who is also the

national security advisor, as well as the U.S. special envoy to Ukraine, Keith Kellogg. They all learned about this, we're told, from press reports.

Now, it's unclear why Secretary Hegseth did not inform the White House about this pause, but our understanding, based on our conversations with

sources, is that he didn't think that this would be a problem. He thought that it was in alignment with President Trump's America First priorities to

pause this weapons shipment in order to conduct this more fulsome review of U.S. weapons availability around the world.

But of course, it backfired. And we saw that President Trump ultimately decided to reverse that decision. He has been very, very coy when asked

directly whether or not he was told about this by Secretary Hegseth yesterday, he said that he did not know who authorized the pause. Today,

he's saying that he would have known about it if had if it had happened. But of course, the White House already confirmed last week that it had

happened.

So, just a lot of, you know, interesting word games happening here because, you know, our understanding is that the president and the White House don't

want there to be, you know, the optics for it to be that there's any daylight between the president and the secretary of defense, but this is

something that Secretary Hegseth has done before when it comes to making moves that sometimes take the White House and senior national security

officials a bit by surprise, Lynda.

KINKADE: All right. We will see if heads roll over this controversy. Good to have you with us, Natasha Bertrand. Thanks very much.

Well, the Trump administration has announced a new round of global tariffs. In letters sent out earlier today, at least seven nations were informed

that the U.S. would be placing tariffs on goods if they didn't make a deal by August 1st. But this time, the market seems unfazed. The Dow Jones

inching slightly higher today, up almost 0.5 percent.

Well, joining us now from New York is CNN's Matt Egan.

Good to see you, Matt.

So, this pause on tariffs has again been extended. The new deadline now, August 1st. We saw those letters sent out by Donald Trump to countries

around the world. Some of the tariffs start at 20 percent. Take us through the countries that might be hardest hit.

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Lynda, it's remarkable how calm investors have been about all of this latest trade war chaos because, as you're

pointing out, we now have 21 nations that have received these tariff letters from President Trump threatening tariffs of up to 40 percent.

Everyone from South Korea and Japan to the Philippines, right? But it's not just that, right? Trump has also threatened a 50 percent tariff on copper,

200 percent tariffs on pharmaceuticals, 10 percent tariff on BRICS nations. The economic club that includes Brazil, Russia, India and China.

And yet markets seem completely unfazed by it, right? I mean, sure, there was a little bit of a pullback on Monday, but that was from record highs.

And U.S. stocks are solidly higher today.

I mean, you almost need a microscope to see the pullback on the right side of your screen. It's basically nonexistent. And so, this does look like

another example of what's known on Wall Street as the TACO trade, short for "Trump always chickens out". There's a lot of investors that I'm talking

to. They say that basically no one expects these tariffs to ultimately kick in, right?

They suspect that eventually the president will water them down or delay them or cancel them altogether. And that is exactly what happened back in

early April when the president had those sky high liberation day tariffs that freaked out the market. We saw massive sell offs in stocks and bonds,

so extreme that eventually the president blinked. Right? And he did institute this 90-day pause. And that set off this market recovery.

But there is a potential flaw in this TACO trade logic, because if everyone thinks the president is going to just blink, then that means there is no

sell off. And if there's no sell off, that means there's no pressure on the president to blink.

Veteran investor Bob Elliott, he summed it up best. He said the trouble is, without the pain of falling markets, he won't chicken out.

Now, the other point here is that, and this complicates it even further, is that the president is aware of the TACO trade, right? He was asked about it

in late May. He made clear he does not like the term, and that he believes he hasn't been chickening out.

So, he's trying to make clear that he does mean business and that this new deadline of August 1st is real. One other point here is that Peter Navarro,

he was on another network today, and he was making the point that tariffs have not driven up inflation, and that he thinks this is because other

countries are eating the tariffs.

But I would just note that a lot of the economists that I'm talking to, they still think that tariffs are going to eventually drive up inflation.

They just know that it takes time before it filters through the system. And so, their bottom line is just because tariffs haven't driven up inflation

yet, it doesn't mean that that's been canceled, right? It's just that that tariff driven inflation hasn't arrived yet.

Back to you, Lynda.

KINKADE: All right, Matt. We will see if this deadline, this new deadline gets pushed yet again. Matt Egan for us in New York. Good to have you with

us.

EGAN: Thanks.

KINKADE: Well, today in Washington, Donald Trump has been hosting the leaders of five African nations, Liberia, Gabon, Guinea-Bissau, Mauritania

and Senegal. Some of the continent's biggest economic players, like South Africa, Egypt, Nigeria didn't have a seat at the table.

CNN's Larry Madowo joins us now from Lagos, Nigeria.

Just stumbled my way through that.

Good to see you, Larry.

I know you've had a big day, and certainly Donald Trump has had a big lunch meeting with these leaders from five African nations. Certainly talking

about trade, about rare earth minerals, critical minerals and tariffs. He certainly made clear what he wants, right?

LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He did make clear what he wants, and it was right there in the beginning. It's the first thing that came out of his

mouth, Lynda, was minerals. These are vibrant places with a lot of valuable land and minerals. These are minerals that the United States wants, and it

does not help, or certainly helps his case that they don't have the capacity, the money to be able to exploit them. And so, they are offering

these minerals to President Trump and to American companies. Some of them said they want them to be exploited locally so that they can create jobs in

the country for the youth.

And that solves the second problem that President Trump has, that some of these countries are sending migrants increasingly large amounts of migrants

through Nicaragua and to the southern border of the United States, Mauritania and Senegal are at the top of that. And so, if they can get

American investment in their companies, maybe that means fewer people make their way through to the southern border.

So that was the main topic at this meeting that included countries that you don't typically think of as Africa's biggest economies. They're all in the

West and Central African coast of Africa, Mauritania, Senegal, Gabon, Guinea-Bissau, Liberia.

[15:10:00]

And President Trump went out of his way to essentially be nice to them, but his intentions were clear.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Represented today and your continent is represented by Gabon, Guinea-Bissau, Liberia, Mauritania and Senegal, all very vibrant places

with the very valuable land, great minerals, great oil deposits and wonderful people.

JOSEPH BOAKAL, LIBERIAN PRESIDENT: Mr. President, we thank you for this opportunity to be here. Liberia is a longtime friend of the United States,

and we believe in your policy of making America great again. And we also go along way with you, with your -- in your diplomacy that has to do with

economic development and commercial friendship. Liberia has a lot of minerals.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADOWO: President Trump was surprised at that man, president of Liberia, spoke such good English, Lynda. He asked him, when did you learn to speak

so beautifully? Forgetting that English is the official language of Liberia and Liberia was actually founded by freed slaves from the United States.

Another awkward moment, an African reporter that President Trump has taken a liking to, asked those leaders if they would nominate him for the Nobel

Peace Prize, knowing that this has become a recent obsession for the president.

KINKADE: All right. Larry Madowo, we will leave it there for now.

Good to have you on the story for us. Thanks so much.

Well, President Trump says he believes Israel and Hamas are very close to a ceasefire deal for Gaza. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu met with

the U.S. defense secretary today in Washington. That follows two days of talks on Gaza with President Trump.

Ceasefire talks are also underway in Qatar, but on the ground in Gaza, you wouldn't know a ceasefire might be near. The humanitarian crisis is

deepening amid new Israeli strikes and a fuel shortage has now turned critical for hospitals struggling to keep patients alive.

Our Paula Hancocks has more. We need to warn you, her report has some disturbing images.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Four babies crammed into one ICU cot, the stark reality of trying to keep preterm babies alive in a

war zone where formula, medicine and fuel have virtually run out.

DR. NASSER BULBUL, HEAD OF ICU, AL-HELOU HOSPITAL: But we have no incubators to keep this baby inside the incubator. So, both the baby for

more than one week in the upper resuscitation. Also, this baby in risk of complication because the temperature control and the risk of getting

infection.

HANCOCKS: Twelve incubators in this ICU with 22 cases of extreme preterm babies. Dr. Bulbul says they have lost babies when the generators break

down.

Baby Aseel (ph) was born three months early, weighing half a kilo. She needed two months in an incubator.

"We all want our children to be safe," her mother says. "If the power is cut off, these children will be in a dire situation. We need electricity to

power the incubators."

Hospitals across Gaza and the United Nations warn fuel shortages are at a critical point. Nasser medical complex warns it is 24 hours away from

disaster. If the power goes out, it says dozens of patients face certain death.

This kidney dialysis center has been closed at Al-Shifa Hospital. It can only reopen once more fuel is delivered. We have asked COGAT, the Israeli

agency in charge of coordinating aid deliveries into Gaza, about the acute shortage of fuel for hospitals.

And the daily fight for food becomes ever more desperate.

JAMAL ABU HASIRA, GAZA CITY RESIDENT: Daily, I'm fighting this kind of starvation and I'm barely get one meal per two days.

HANCOCKS: Chaos and desperation is clear to see at this Gaza City soup kitchen. Fear another day may pass with no food for themselves and their

families.

In the struggle, one girl spills boiling soup on her hands, screams of shock and pain as she nurses the burns. Beyond her injury, she has lost her

food.

A ceasefire talks continue in Doha. Dozens continue to be killed daily across Gaza. This the aftermath of a strike on a tent city in Gaza City.

Talk of progress in Qatar has no impact on life in Gaza.

ABU HASIRA: More than miserable. More than starvation.

[15:15:00]

More than genocide. We are really living in hell, really.

HANCOCKS: Paula Hancocks, CNN, Abu Dhabi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KINKADE: U.S. President Donald Trump is announcing a new round of tariffs. Still to come, well talk to a former U.S. trade representative about the

president's actions and how other countries may want to approach the negotiation process.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KINKADE: Welcome back.

In Texas, at least 119 lives have been lost due to catastrophic floods. An urgent search effort is underway to find more than 170 people.

Earlier, officials in hard hit Kerr County gave this warning about the debris piles.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN LAMB, KERRVILLE POLICE: We know that folks are beginning to clean up. We have large debris piles, and we ask them not to use heavy equipment

to take down those debris piles until they've been checked by a search party, because it's possible there are victims in that debris pile.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KINKADE: We're also learning more about Camp Mystic, where at least 27 people died. Records show that two days before the flooding, a state

inspector had visited the youth camp, certifying that it did have an emergency plan in place. This hour, five campers are one counselor are

still missing.

Well, Kerrville residents are sharing their chilling stories of survival, one woman told CNN that she and her husband tried to help rescue others

from the deadly floods.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LORENA GUILLEN, KERRVILLE RESIDENT: And the screams, the screams is what haunts me. Every time I close my eyes, I hear people screaming the -- on

the river you can see the lights of dozens of vehicles just getting washed away, RVs, campers, everything.

[15:20:01]

And you can hear people honking. And when the lighting, you know, when you get, you see some light, you can see the windows of the campers with people

banging against the windows.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KINKADE: Marybel Gonzalez is on the ground tracking the situation in Kerrville, Texas.

Marybel, it's certainly heartbreaking to see the death toll continue to rise, as well as those who are unaccounted for. Just talk to us about the

rescue effort right now. The search effort on, on foot, on horseback with cadaver dogs going section by section.

MARYBEL GONZALEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Lynda, it is truly all hands on deck. In fact, we just heard a chopper go by one of many that has been

patrolling this area and making their rounds all along the Guadalupe River.

There are people on foot, on the ground, on horseback, trying to access this difficult terrain. They're searching through piles of debris, just

like the ones that you see behind us. They are hoping that they're able to find anybody who may be trapped inside of that debris that is just

completely bottlenecked.

Now, along that area, we've seen blocks of cement and even entire vehicles wedged between those branches. In fact, Lorena Guillen, who you just heard

from, we were at her property when we spoke to her. And during that time, we saw a group of volunteers. They were trying to wrench open the doors of

a vehicle. They were working at it for hours, trying to see if anybody was trapped inside. And luckily there was nobody there. But it just goes to

show you just how long it takes to access any one of these vehicles that may be trapped along the Guadalupe River.

And, Lynda, it is not just locals who are helping in this recovery efforts. It is also volunteers hailing from different states and also as far as

Mexico. We know they've sent several groups of volunteers and firefighters to help with these efforts.

Now, I will also tell you, Lynda, that it's also mules. We know that a team of six mules are carrying heavy equipment into difficult to reach areas,

and we know that the group behind that mission, the mission mules, also did recovery efforts during Hurricane Helene. So, they have experience with

this type of disaster.

KINKADE: Marybel, there's certainly growing anger from family, from residents, from those who have lost loved ones in this about what led to

this catastrophic event. Officials certainly facing tough questions. The mayor was asked about why he wasn't on a call with state and local

officials the day prior to this catastrophic event, and also, we heard that a code red emergency alert was not issued despite a request by a

firefighter.

How officials handling those questions.

GONZALEZ: Yeah, those are tough questions that they've been facing since this disaster struck, really, and not just from the press, but also from

members of their own community. But we haven't heard many details, answers into what happened, what went wrong, what could have gone better.

We do know that the Kerrville County officials, they've been very focused on saying, look, we're not looking towards the past. Right now, our focus

is on finding all of those dozens of people that are still missing. And they also said even today that if that emergency alert was inadequate, if

the response was flawed in some sort of way, they will address it in the later -- in later time to come.

But right now, that is not the focus. The focus is on recovery efforts. And Texas Governor Greg Abbott said that would be addressed later in the state

legislature.

KINKADE: All right. Marybel Gonzalez, good to have you there, on the story for us. Thank you.

And at least three people, including two children, have been killed by flash floods in a village in New Mexico. Monsoon rains triggered

floodwaters that authorities are describing as record breaking. The Rio Ruidoso, a mountain river in the southern part of the U.S. state, surged

from under two feet to an unprecedented 25 feet in less than half an hour, with powerful currents uplifting trees and washing away houses.

We're returning now to Donald Trump's trade war, and today was meant to be the day. U.S. President Donald Trump set as a deadline for all countries to

reach a trade deal or face higher tariffs. But that has been delayed yet again until August 1st. The president had promised 200 trade deals would be

made by now. So far, only three have been made.

Mr. Trump has dishing out more tariff threats today, sending letters to seven countries, including Iraq and the Philippines, threatening tariffs as

high as 30 percent.

So, what we want to know is how should countries approach tariff talks with President Trump?

Well, joining me now is Ambassador Ronald Kirk, a former United States trade representative.

Good to have you with us, Ambassador.

AMB. RONALD KIRK, FORMER UNITED STATES TRADE REPRESENTATIVE: It is good to be with you.

[15:25:00]

And if you will allow me one minute of privilege being a Texan and having grown up in the Hill Country, thank you for the attention that you're

paying to just a horrific tragedy in our state.

KINKADE: Yeah, it certainly is horrific. We do appreciate your time today. Our hearts, of course, are with everyone in Texas, but I do want to ask you

about these tariffs -- these new letters went out today. Donald Trump has again extended this pause on tariffs threatening to now renew these tariffs

come August 1st unless he sees some deals made.

But so far, there's only been three -- three deals out of 200. Why so few?

KIRK: Well, first of all, I think countries legitimately are struggling to find out what the real motive of this administration is. I mean, issuing

threats by Truth Social, not even giving countries the courtesy of sitting down, negotiating in good faith at the cabinet level makes it difficult for

them to know how seriously the president's doing this, and the fact that this is now the third round of threats, with the promise that the tariffs

will go into effect unless they negotiate. And then we have fairly predictable negative responses from the markets. And frankly, the American

consuming public that knows, sadly, these tariffs are attacks on American importers and American families.

And so, I think countries wisely are waiting to get in the queue, and secondly, these take time, having served as trade representative under

President Obama, we negotiated three agreements over four years with three countries. So, this is a massive undertaking.

And the fact that they essentially are doing letters also, sadly speaks to really this comes down to how the president feels that morning and whether

he feels respected or disrespected, who knows, by that particular country. So, it is a very challenging negotiating environment.

KINKADE: Yeah, we were just showing a graphic as you spoke, ambassador, about some of the tariffs that have been threatened in this latest round

that could come into effect August 1st. They start at just 20 -- they start at 20 percent, going up to 30 percent.

What are these countries specific -- specific rates indicate for other countries looking to negotiate with the U.S. like the E.U., like Canada,

like Switzerland?

KIRK: I think -- look, they're challenging, they're confounding. We hear from so many of our former colleagues, particularly long-time allies in

Europe and Asia, that are frankly flummoxed that they feel like China got more tension and Korea than he's giving, you know, to Japan and South Korea

and others. But they're also confused because we do operate under a legal protocol for our trade agreements and our commitments under the World Trade

Organization.

And this administration has simply just thrown those out the door. And the more difficult proposition the president keeps threatening that whatever

tariff rates these go to on a country specific basis will be on top of specific tariffs he's putting, for example, he's announced 50 percent

tariffs on steel and aluminum and threatened 50 percent on copper.

Those would be horrific for businesses in the U.S. that are dependent on those inputs. For many goods that we ironically turn around and sell around

the world.

KINKADE: Ambassador, we've heard time and time again from economists that these wide-ranging U.S. tariffs could certainly spark another bout of

inflation, hinder economic growth. Certainly, the markets have remained steady at this point in time. What does that tell you?

KIRK: Well, they have. If you -- if you remember when he announced these back in April, there was a very sharp downturn in the market and it caused

the president to very abruptly come out several days later and then put in place this 90-day pause to allow for these negotiations.

But the reality is, we know from history, while tariffs may sound sexy. They are borne by the American taxpayer and American businesses. And so,

one reason I think you've seen the markets relatively calm is we haven't had the full effect of the tariffs in force, but also the markets have

become somewhat conditioned to believe the president issues a bunch of threats to draw attention from something else.

[15:30:01]

And then when the deadline comes and the reality that it could either impact elections or families having to buy goods for their kids to go back

to school or the holidays, then he's changed course and backed off.

So, I think what you're seeing in the markets is more hope and caution than a belief that these really won't have a long term negative impact on our

economy.

KINKADE: You make a good point. Ambassador Ronald Kirk, we appreciate your time. Thanks very much for joining us.

KIRK: Thank you for having me.

KINKADE: Well, chipmaker Nvidia hitting $4 trillion in market value today, making it the first publicly traded company ever to touch that milestone,

beating tech giants Apple and Microsoft. Nvidia stock rose an intraday record high just this year. The company, founded in 1993, has soared 22

percent.

Well, still to come, as the White House moves back and forth on arms shipments, Ukraine's president is in Rome trying to shore up support from

Europe. We'll have more on that story, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KINKADE: Welcome back. I'm Lynda Kinkade.

Well, one of the most powerful Republicans in Congress is declining to publicly back Pete Hegseth after the secretary of defense decided to pause

arms shipments to Ukraine. Senate Majority Leader John Thune was asked about Hegseth's future and said it's a matter for the president. Donald

Trump has since resumed those U.S. weapons shipments, while Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is in Rome, meeting both the pope and

Italy's president as he looks to shore up European support for his country's fight with Russia.

At Italy's presidential palace, the country's president told Mr. Zelenskyy that support for Ukraine remains strong.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGIO MATTARELLA, ITALIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Our closeness is deep and concrete. Our position is and remains absolutely firm and I would

like to express our admiration for the conduct of the Ukrainian people, which strengthens our conviction to offer full support and assistance to

your country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KINKADE: Well, what we don't know is will the Trump administration's support for Ukraine last?

Joining me now from Rome is Ukraine's former trade minister, Tymofiy Mylovanov.

Good to have you with us. Sorry, I think I got your last name, Mylovanov. Good to have you with us. Thanks so much for joining us.

Now Donald Trump has admitted that he underestimated the difficulty of ending this war. He certainly has. This war has continued to grind on. I'm

wondering what sort of toll its taken on Ukraine's economy.

TYMOFIY MYLOVANOV, PRESIDENT, KYIV SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Well, yeah, it's absolutely horrendous. You know, now both civilians and military, they live

in danger of their lives. I think people simply do not understand the scale of the violence which is happening in Ukraine right now.

General Kellogg actually spoke like ten minutes ago and he also said that when he and President Trump started this negotiations, they didn't realize

how difficult it would be to bring Russia or bring the violence to the end. And he was speaking here in Rome and he said that the people do not

understand that the scale of killing is basically industrial death machine.

And so, you know, we all live in that. And, you know, we just somehow adapted. And it's amazing what humans can adapt to. But I think it is -- it

is pretty, pretty tough.

KINKADE: Yeah. Of course, the Ukraine suffered a record during a missile attack last night, just hours after Donald Trump criticized Putin for

really not doing enough to bring about peace, not being serious about bringing about peace.

What are the levers does the U.S. have right now to meaningfully, meaningfully influence the situation on the ground?

MYLOVANOV: The key lever or, you know, sort of leverage they have over Russia is to demonstrate to Russia that the U.S. will stand behind Ukraine

and support it financially and militarily, because as long as it is not happening, Russian President Vladimir Putin will continue to test president

Trump to see if there is weakness of vulnerability and resolve. And as long as Putin is not 100 percent sure that the United States and Europe are

going to stand behind Ukraine, he has no incentive to negotiate. He will not negotiate.

KINKADE: We've seen this bill that Senator Lindsey Graham is pushing for that would impose a 500 percent tariff on countries doing business with

Russia. It already has the support of 85 co-sponsors. Could that kind of economic pressure be an effective strategy?

MYLOVANOV: Yes. So, sanctions work. They don't work all the way. They deny Russia some revenue. And it's in hundreds of billions of dollars. And that,

of course, helps to reduce the amount of funds they have to finance their military production. So that matters quite a bit.

And these sanctions on third parties, on third countries through which Russia bypasses the direct sanctions, will be useful to bring Russia to the

negotiating table, but maybe 500 percent, you know, I don't know what the objective number is, is for economists to figure out the optimal amount, it

might be actually smaller to make it more realistic, but that would be a huge step forward.

KINKADE: If there's one policy shift you'd like to see from brussels or Washington that would really help Ukraine right now, what would it be?

MYLOVANOV: Get united and get leadership on this issue. It's been long enough. It's been three and a half years. The war in Europe. Russia has

armed itself. China has leveraged, has leveraged over Russia. They are not getting separated. There is no simple solution. Europe has to get united

and has to put serious thinking behind how to stop the war and how to deter Russia from aggression in Europe.

KINKADE: Tymofiy Mylovanov, good to have you with us. We appreciate your time. Thanks so much.

Well, still to come, a chatbot created by Elon Musk's artificial intelligence company wades into controversy once again.

[15:40:03]

We'll have a live report on that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:43:12]

KINKADE: Well, Elon Musk's A.I. chatbot is drawing fresh scrutiny for offensive comments. Grok, as it's called, pushed antisemitic tropes in its

responses to some users questions. The bot also praised Hitler. This happened weeks after Musk said he'd rebuild the chatbot for expressing

views he felt a two politically correct.

Well, CNN media correspondent Hadas Gold joins us now live from New York.

Good to see you, Hadas.

So, this A.I. chatbot, certainly under fire for pushing these antisemitic, these hateful messages. The company has since said it's updated its system.

But the question is how do these sort of messages even get on this platform in the first place?

HADAS GOLD, CNN MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. So, when you think about a A.I. like this or a large language model, it's all about what is it being

trained on? Because sort of like a human studying for a test, an A.I. will use vast amounts of data and information. And we know that Grok, as you

mentioned, was retrained a few weeks ago. This came after Elon Musk expressed disappointment in his own A.I. chatbot, saying that some of its

answers were parroting, as he said, legacy media, essentially, he thought that it was repeating sort of liberal biases, so they completely retrained

it.

I actually asked Grok about what some of its responses were based off of. Some of these responses, as you noted, praising Adolf Hitler. Another one

was to a completely kind of didn't even mention Jews.

And the question somebody asked, who runs the government? And the A.I. responded, based on patterns in media, finance and politics. One group is

overrepresented way beyond their 2 percent population share. Jews make up about 2 percent of the U.S. population. And it says stats don't lie. But is

it control or just smarts?

And so on some of these, I actually went to Grok itself and I typed to it. I said, what were your sources for some of these responses? And an answer

that it goes to a variety of sources. But one of them that it mentioned to me was a forum called 4chan.

[15:45:02]

Now, if you haven't heard of 4chan before, it's an online sort of message board forum, but it's known to be full of extremists, full of hateful

conduct -- content. So it's sort of stunning to see an A.I. is using some of that information coming from a place like 4chan in these responses.

And I've spoken to experts who did say, you know, these -- where it is trained that can influence the type of answers that we will see coming from

the chat bot. And Grok also responded to others who said and it said recent updates prioritize raw truth seeking over avoiding discomfort. Now, xAI has

issued a statement saying that they are aware of the recent post and they're actively working to remove the inappropriate ones.

And I've been checking on Grok, and for almost 24 hours, it's almost been frozen. It hasn't been responding publicly on its -- on its X account.

Elon Musk, for his part, was saying that Grok was too compliant to user prompts, too eager to please and be manipulated -- Lynda.

KINKADE: It's interesting, Hadas, that you wrote directly to the A.I. bot to get some answers.

I want to also ask you about the CEO of X, who today announced her resignation. What can you tell us about that and the timing of it?

GOLD: Yeah. So, Linda Yaccarino had been CEO of X for about two years. She was brought on in 2023. She had been head ads person at NBC Universal. And

I do have to say that the timing of this is definitely sort of weird, coming at the same time as what's been happening with Grok and

antisemitism, but she was not in charge of Grok.

So, what happened was a few months ago, in March, xAI, which is the A.I. company that Elon Musk owns that operates Grok, they took over X, the

social media platforms. There have been some questions about what Linda Yaccarino's role would be in this new company. And now we're seeing today,

her announcing that she is going to be stepping down as CEO.

Elon Musk issuing sort of a terse thank you for your contributions statement on X as a result of her departure. But we'll have to see what

happens to xAI and the company going forward.

KINKADE: Hadas Gold staying across the door for us from New York. Thanks so much.

Well, still to come, a shakeup at the top of Formula One. Why a longtime champion is leaving his team?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KINKADE: Welcome back.

One of the biggest team leaders in the F1 is looking for a new job today. Christian Horner has been fired from his role as principal and CEO of the

Red Bull team. Horner had run Red Bull's F1 operation for 20 years. The move raises questions about Max Verstappen's future at Red Bull.

[15:50:01]

Verstappen has won four straight F1 championships but is third place so far this year.

Well, Patrick Snell joins us now. He is from CNN "WORLD SPORT", of course.

Patch, good to see you.

So, this is certainly the end of an era for Formula One and Red Bull, and certainly a shock exit.

PATRICK SNELL, CNN WORLD SPORT: Yeah, Lynda, absolutely, definitely the end of an era. No question about that.

And I think it did. I think it is fair to say that it did catch many by surprise. Red Bull not giving a reason for Horner's dismissal, but they did

thank the 51-year-old via a statement.

Now, he had been Red Bull's team principal since he joined F1, as you say, back in 2005, two decades of huge success, the Sebastian Vettel era of

success and joined the Brit's time in charge, Red Bull, in fact, winning eight drivers titles and six constructors championships as well.

By our math's, it was 124 Grand Prix wins, 107 pole positions and 287 podium finishes, with Horner in charge, but, but Horner's time with Red

Bull has been controversial in recent seasons, in recent years. Red Bull launching that independent investigation in February, that was early last

year, after Horner was accused of engaging in inappropriate behavior towards a member of the racing team who has not been identified. Horner was

later cleared of wrongdoing and reiterated his denial of the allegations after alleged leaked messages were distributed to members of the F1

community in a Google drive.

Now, CNN has been unable to corroborate the message's authenticity, and Red Bull previously had said it would be inappropriate to comment further on

the matter. But no doubt, Lynda, as you said, a whole new era for the team as they try and move forward.

So, what comes next? Who comes next? Well, that would be Laurent Mekies, the Frenchman who works for Red Bull's sister team Racing Bulls will

replace Horner as team principal and CEO. And he's already said that moving forward, the aim is to achieve great results, building on the incredible

legacy left by Christian Horner during his time in charge. So I think that's significant.

And also, one of the biggest things, one of the most immediate things in his in-tray, on his desk, is going to be the future of the team's superstar

driver, the young Dutchman Max Verstappen. This amid ongoing rumors in the sport that Verstappen could leave Red Bull at the end of the season.

Verstappen has been linked with a move to Mercedes despite having a contract with Red Bull until 2028.

We'll see though, what happens. The Dutch driver has repeatedly turned down the opportunity to comment on his future, and Horner himself, Lynda, had

previously been convinced, reportedly in his belief that Verstappen would remain with Red Bull. So, a case of watch this space, it is fascinating.

But big, big developments on this day in the world of Formula One.

We'll stay across it all and we'll have further updates on editions of CNN `WORLD SPORT" later on today.

KINKADE: We look forward to those, as always. Patrick Snell, thank you.

Well, finally, it's a busy week for the royals. King Charles and Queen Camilla are marking 40 years of artists accompanying official royal visits

overseas. A new exhibition showcases dozens of artists who have joined King Charles on 70 tours across 95 countries.

CNN's Christina Macfarlane got a sneak peek inside Buckingham Palace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: While most of us rely on our phones to take holiday snaps or remind us of the good times, King Charles

does things slightly differently.

(voice-over): For the past 40 years, he has personally commissioned an artist to join him on 70 official visits across 95 countries and regions.

The collection is going on display to the public inside Buckingham Palace for the first time starting Thursday, and we've been given an early look,

starting with a scene from the royal yacht, painted by the king himself alongside artist John Ward.

KATE HEARD, CURATOR OF THE KING'S TOUR ARTISTS: It's a view from Britannia looking back out over the sea on that 1985 tour to Italy. And you can see

the king's own watercolor there. His majesty, also an artist himself.

We know that on the earlier tours, his majesty was able to paint alongside those tour artists, often as the pace of tours has increased and there's

been less chance to do that.

MACFARLANE: So, when you talk about the challenges for a touring artist, what do you mean by that exactly?

HEARD: Well, a royal tour moves very fast. It's very carefully choreographed and it moves at real pace, and an artist needs time to create

their work of art. This is by an artist called Luke Allsbrook, who had 30 minutes to catch the scene.

He didn't create this wonderful large canvas in that 30 minutes, but he set up his easel. You see, he's chosen that really wide view. This is

Washington state. You can see the royal party in the field. They're just going to visit that farmhouse.

MACFARLANE: I've heard the king say that his own works of art for himself serve as a sort of photo album of his own life. Do you think the reason

behind doing this is something similar?

HEARD: Well, certainly these works provide a record, but they also provide an interpretation of the tours.

[15:55:04]

Each of them is the artist's response to the place that they visited.

MACFARLANE: What's your favorite?

HEARD: I have a favorite. I do have a favorite, but I think everybody will have a favorite. So, I think that in some ways my favorite isn't important

because everybody will take a different favorite away. Everybody will react to a different work of art.

MACFARLANE: For me personally, it's this one. A couple on a beach. In a rare moment of calm amidst the chaos of royal life on tour.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KINKADE: I love that painting, too.

Christina Macfarlane, our thanks to you. I'm Lynda Kinkade. That is WHAT WE KNOW.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" with Paula Newton is up next. Stay with us. You're watching CNN.

END

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