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What We Know with Max Foster
Trump: Russian Jets That Violate Airspace Should Be Shot Down; Man Found Guilty Of Attempting To Assassinate Trump In Florida; Trump Takes Aim At The U.N. In Speech; Disney: "Jimmy Kimmel Live!" To Return To Air Tonight; Secret Service Traces Swatting Threats Against Officials. Aired 3- 4p ET
Aired September 23, 2025 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:26]
MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: Russian planes in NATO airspace should be shot down says Donald Trump.
This is WHAT WE KNOW.
U.S. president ramping up the rhetoric against Russia as Moscow continues to test NATO. During a meeting with Ukrainian Leader Volodymyr Zelenskyy at
the United Nations a short time ago, he said NATO countries should shoot down Russian jets that violate their airspace.
Here's how President Trump answered when asked about retaliation against alleged Russian air incursions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President, do you think that NATO countries should shoot down Russian aircraft if they enter their airspace?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: President Trump did add the qualifier, depends on the circumstances. His remarks come after Estonia requested a Security Council
meeting on Monday. Last week, three Russian fighter jets entered its airspace, something the Kremlin dismissed. Moscow is also being accused of
possible involvement with mystery drones spotted over airports in Denmark and Norway overnight.
Air traffic was shut down in Copenhagen and Oslo. Russia's ambassador to Denmark called the suspicions ungrounded.
Let's get more from CNN's Kylie Atwood at the United Nations.
I mean, this is huge, isn't it? Because the European countries would need American approval to shoot down those Russian jets. And you can only
imagine the reaction from Russia if it happens.
KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Indeed. I mean, it would certainly escalate a situation that most of these NATO countries have been
trying to put sort of a cap on to try and not escalate beyond what we have already seen. But no doubt about it, these Russian aircraft that have been
violating NATO airspace over the last week or so in Poland and Estonia, it has been a major concern for these NATO countries. And there are questions
about whether or not this was actually the intention of Russia, or if it was the accident of Russia in in these incursions in the first place. There
is not a firm assessment on that front. And it does matter because it will color how the body actually responds to it.
But with President Trump saying that he does believe that NATO should shoot down those Russian jets, incursion into airspace of NATO, that's
significant. But the fact that he also backed off of it a little bit when asked about the U.S. partaking in any of those operations, as you said,
saying it would depend on the circumstance. Perhaps it indicates that he's not entirely sure exactly where his policy stands on this yet.
And we should also note that we heard from the secretary of state earlier this morning who spoke before the president and downplayed the idea that
the U.S. would back NATO downing any of these Russian aircraft, saying that they would only go after aircraft that were flying into NATO countries if
they were fighter jets.
So, this is obviously a critical space for us to watch, because the implications could be huge. And it also comes on the heels of President
Trump's speech here at the United Nations, where he didn't necessarily lay out a new path forward to try and bring an end to the war in Ukraine.
But he did say that he believes that the fact that the war is ongoing doesn't look good for Russia, that it has been harder to bring to a close.
And he expected it would be when he came into office. We've heard that from him time and time again. But the fact that he's reiterated it definitely
demonstrates that he feels like they are kind of at a bit of a dead end right now when it comes to Russia's willingness to engage in an actual
conversation that could lead to an end to the war. We'll have to watch and see what comes after these conversations. President Zelenskyy, of course,
also meeting with other world leaders while he is here at the United Nations. President Trump doing the same.
And President Trump had some very harsh rhetoric for the member nations of the United Nations, saying that it is a body that it that has not lived up
to its potential. Going after small cosmetic details, the fact that his teleprompter wasn't working today, the fact that the escalator wasn't
working when he got on it, but then also effectively making the case that the United Nations has not been strong enough on migration. And that is one
thing that he really keyed in on during his speech today.
We'll have to watch and see how they respond, because we know these countries want to work with the United States, but the president not really
giving them an in to do so during his very speech marked by harsh rhetoric today.
FOSTER: Kylie, thank you so much for joining us from the U.N. there.
Nic Robertson is here because we need to break this down because I was quite shocked when I heard this because obviously Russia has been making
the point that those areas, that of airspace that have gone into they've got a right to say, going in and out of their territory, they're arguing.
[15:05:14]
So, if NATO disagrees and they shoot one of these jets down, surely Russia would say it's an act of war.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: And I think that question would probably have been raised in the 15 seconds before Turkey, a
NATO member, shot down a Russian fighter jet flying into its airspace from Syria I think it was about a decade or so ago. There wasn't a huge
response. Everyone sort of moved on. I think people were expecting more.
I think the stakes are obviously much higher now, definitely for President Putin has invested so much in the war in Ukraine and for President Trump,
there's a lot more invested. And it was interesting when he was having that conversation, he was asked if the U.S. would involve itself in striking
Russian aircraft because it agreed that NATO aircraft, European aircraft should do that. But when it came to U.S. aircraft, that's been equivocated
a bit. But what he did say was and again, this -- I mean, you never know with Donald Trump's position moves. But he did say we are very strongly
behind NATO.
FOSTER: Yeah. But they've got there -- so, you know, let's say a Polish commander speaks to NATO in the moment would surely they now feel they've
got approval if they feel they should shoot it down, whereas before, if they felt that the U.S. might doubt them, that would cause the hesitancy.
ROBERTSON: There's going to be a chain of command before any fighter pilot pulls a trigger and blows a Russian aircraft out of the sky. That's just a
given. We don't know. The ultimate point where that phone call ends up. Does it end up on a military desk? Does it end up on a political desk? What
has happened the day before? What conversations as President Trump had with Zelenskyy or Putin in the hours or weeks before?
I think all of those things are going to count. But yes, we appear to have taken a step closer and --
FOSTER: Made it more likely.
ROBERTSON: CNN's Fred Pleitgen was reporting from Moscow just yesterday that the Russian state media was speaking about this in the same context.
This looks like unless the West does something, unless there's some agreement that were heading for some sort of mistake showdown, accident,
call it what you will. The stakes are being raised. Putin raises the stakes incrementally.
Imagine if the Ukrainian war had started three years ago and Russia had flown three MiGs into Estonian airspace two days later. The mood, the
temperature, the expectation it would have been so escalatory. But it's incrementally we've arrived at this position and I think the ambiguity that
we were hearing from President Trump in the White House earlier in the day about whether or not they would want to shoot down those aircraft, is
exactly the ambiguity that most Europeans would say is a wide open playing field for President Putin to do more and test it.
FOSTER: Okay, we've got a comment here from Truth Social. Donald Trump's social site, after getting to know and fully understand the Ukraine-Russia
military and economic situation, and after seeing the economic trouble it is causing Russia, I think Ukraine, with the support of the European Union,
is in a position to fight and win all of Ukraine back in its original form. I mean, that's huge as well.
ROBERTSON: Well, it was very interesting today when Donald Trump was sitting with President Zelenskyy, he gave him the opportunity to speak. He
said, do you want to say what's happening on the front line? And President Zelenskyy said, well, we've taken about 360 kilometers of front line and
encircled about 1,000 Russian troops.
Look, we're not there. We can't verify it. We don't know. If the facts on the ground match the reality at the moment, if what is said. Reports two
days ago or whatever, we don't know. But that's what he's saying. And that's what President Trump is picking up on.
And suddenly from a few weeks ago where Zelenskyy appeared to be losing ground and under pressure, he is able to portray convincingly, it would
seem, to President Trump, a greater strength and ability to fight back and Zelenskyy again thanked NATO.
FOSTER: Yeah.
ROBERTSON: Thanked President Trump.
FOSTER: I just want to ask you about these drones. That closed down two Scandinavian airports for several hours, Oslo and Copenhagen. They were
larger than hobby drones. The police think there must have been some sort of actors behind it, which obviously is sort of language. You talk about
state actors and obviously it's blown up online suggesting it can only be the Russians.
I mean, we don't have the intel on that, but would the Russians have tried that?
ROBERTSON: It's not clear. Again, it's the ambiguity. Russia is skilled at using hybrid tactics, different tactics, not full on warfare, flying jets
in, flying them out, flying drones in, flying them out or having them shot down close to the war space of Ukraine.
[15:10:04]
This is different. Copenhagen civilian airport forced to close down a number of different drones from flying from -- flown from a number of
different directions. The prime minister today in Denmark seemed to hint that Russia would be behind this. It's the only logical, actor that might
have done it, given that in the waters just off the coast there, in the Baltic Sea, Russia is -- Russia or Russia associated ships have been using
their anchors to drag up data and power cables.
I'm interested that Norway has said less publicly than the Danes. The Danes had a bigger experience for a longer period of more of the drones. Its
ambiguity in response that that is the space that the Europeans are very aware that Putin would like to exploit and to disrupt.
FOSTER: And they did that. And it's scary how much they disrupted things because they were going around for hours. They couldn't catch them and they
vanished. There's no set up for it, is there?
ROBERTSON: This is new.
FOSTER: Yeah.
ROBERTSON: We're in -- we're in uncharted territory, a new space. And Putin's looking, if it is Putin or whomever is looking to see how the
response will be.
FOSTER: Nic Robertson, thank you so much.
Breaking news tonight, huge drama in a Florida courtroom as the man accused of attempting to kill Donald Trump as he played golf last year has been
found guilty on all charges. Ryan Routh was facing five charges, including attempted assassination of a presidential candidate. After jurors delivered
the verdict, he appeared to try to stab himself in the neck with a pen before being restrained.
Randi Kaye is outside the courtroom in Florida -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's what happened right after that verdict was read, I ran out to our cameras here to get the verdict on the
air, but a source from inside telling us that Ryan Routh, after the verdict was read and after he learned he had been found guilty on all five federal
charges, he did take a pen and try to stab himself in the neck. He was restrained. His daughter also had some type of outburst in the courtroom,
an emotional outburst. He was brought out of the courtroom and then returned to the courtroom. So that is what we know in terms of what
happened immediately following the verdict being read.
He was found guilty of this attempted assassination of a major presidential candidate, as well as possession of a firearm in furtherance of a crime of
violence, assaulting a federal officer, a felon in possession of a firearm and possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number. They showed
that SKS rifle that was found at the scene with the obliterated serial number as evidence during the trial. But what was interesting during the
closing arguments were that that prosecutor Chris Brown reminded the jury that there was intent because they believe, actually, both sides believe,
that this hinged on intent. That was what they needed to get that guilty verdict.
And he pointed out that there was a sniper's nest that Ryan Routh had built at the golf course where this happened. He put in steel plates to protect
himself from gunfire. He had three aliases. He had several license plates in the car. He had nine different burner phones. All of this spoke to
intent as well as that loaded rifle, which did have one bullet in the chamber. And the prosecutor noted that he had clicked the safety off. All
of that, he said, spoke to intent.
Now, Ryan Routh said that there was no intent during his closing argument, he said if the attempted assassination is not taken, then it's not an
attempt. He said that the prime opportunity was there for the defendant to shoot Donald Trump, and that the trigger was never pulled. It was never
going to happen. It was not in the defendant's heart, is how he put it -- Max.
FOSTER: Randi Kaye, a dramatic day in court there. Thank you so much.
All this took place after America's allies heard Donald Trump's scathing criticism of the United Nations. The U.N. -- the U.S. president rather
addressed the U.N. General Assembly earlier in New York. During that speech that lasted nearly an hour, Trump said some countries are being ruined by
their immigration policies. He also called the carbon footprint a hoax, his word, and slammed the U.N. over what he views as its ineffectiveness.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: What is the purpose of the United Nations? The U.N. has such tremendous potential. I've always said it. It has such tremendous,
tremendous potential. But it's not even coming close to living up to that potential.
And I'm really good at predicting things. You know, they actually said during the campaign that a hat, the best-selling hat Trump was right about
everything. And I don't say that in a braggadocious way, but it's true. I've been right about everything.
And I'm telling you that if you don't get away from the green energy scam, your country is going to fail. And if you don't stop, people that you've
never seen before, that you have nothing in common with your country is going to fail. I'm really good at this stuff.
[15:15:01]
Your countries are going to hell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: During his speech at the U.N., President Trump also took aim at climate change and renewable energy sources, the president describing it as
the green energy scam.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world, in my opinion. Climate change, no matter what happens, you're involved in that.
No more global warming, no more global cooling. All of these predictions made by the United Nations and many others, often for bad reasons, were
wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Well, let's speak to Bill Weir. He is, of course, our chief climate correspondent.
I mean, it must have been hard for you to watch. I mean, you're on record with your views about climate change. What do you make of it and what
impact will it have?
BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Max, I think it's just obvious that -- well, for folks around the world who weren't familiar,
Project 2025 is in full effect, in this second term of Donald Trump. In the first term, he had these beliefs, but they were really sort of hampered. He
had bumpers around him back then. Now it is, you can see he's going maximum on both, not only health when it comes to vaccines and tariffs, but when it
comes to the climate space, they are really trying to destroy any conception of an overheating planet, burying American science and so forth.
But saying that it is a scam -- now, this is no longer an argument just about morals. And this is not Earth day in the `70s. Lazard, the investment
bank, just put out their annual cost of energy report, saying solar and wind, the most cost effective forms of new build energy on an unsubsidized
basis. The cost of storage when the sun is down or the wind is not blowing is coming way down. The Trump administration just put $1 billion into a
battery plant. So, they've been sort of erratic about who gets punished and who gets incentivized these days.
A study out of energy innovation found red states will pay the most as he pulls the cheapest forms of energy offline in favor of coal and gas. South
Carolina, Kentucky, Missouri, the states expected to receive 15 percent bumps in the next decade or so, and it was interesting to see him lecture
the U.K. It's obvious he just spent time there with Keir Starmer, talking about drilling in the North Sea and that folks are dying of heat waves in
London.
Not equating the two things at all, but it's interesting, just a few years ago, Donald Trump International was petitioning the U.K. government Ireland
to build a sea wall because of sea level rise as a result of climate change. It's in the application there. So he's all over the place right
now. But right now --
FOSTER: Yeah.
WEIR: -- the reality, Max, is that Xi Jinping very much believes in climate change. And in the last six months, China installed more solar than
the U.S. has all time, twice as much as Germany all time.
So, I'm not sure how many people will be convinced by him today.
FOSTER: No. And on that trip to the U.K., he also praised the king for his work on the environment. So, it is confusing, but it's always been
difficult, hasn't it, for people trying to protect the environment because the facts are clear, but they're not completely conclusive.
So, you know, all the evidence is weighted towards humans creating climate change. But there is that tiny bit of, you know, you know, the 1 percent
that you could argue. I mean, he's getting in there, isn't he? And capitalizing on that doubt.
WEIR: He is. I mean, he found actually five notable contrarians to put together a Department of Energy memo a few months ago to basically
undermine decades of world renowned climate science, saying, it's not that bad, like, you know, sea level rise won't be that bad. The earth is
greener, it's plant food. All this carbon dioxide in the air.
And yes, the earth's systems are incredibly complex. But if you go back to the predictions of 20 years ago, they're pretty dead on it is where were
heading and where were headed from here. Pretty alarming. But in the end, you can take away the climate change argument and just make it about
economics these days, as we talked about. And it's compelling to just err on the side of what's cheaper, cleaner, faster. Oh, and by the way, may not
ultimately kill life as we know it.
But yes, in the United States, it's so politicized and it's such a branch of identity politics right now. And what we're seeing play out is
California is still going to put offshore wind. They got -- they're going forward. There's an offshore wind that a judge just said could go forward
in Rhode Island.
And the economics of this, there's a lot of momentum. And as people realize that maybe an electric stove turns out is a better option than the old one
that brought poison, flammable gas into your house. You know that maybe this is the way to go.
So, it takes time. But from the world leader to do this in front of the world, it'll be fascinating to see the reaction coming down. Gina McCarthy,
the former EPA secretary, put out a statement saying, were going to keep states, mayors, governors, a coalition together to keep America in this
fight. But it makes it a lot harder when the feds are doing this.
FOSTER: Yeah, absolutely.
[15:20:00]
Bill, thank you so much for joining us.
Now, it's a question everyone in America seems to be asking now that Jimmy Kimmel is back on air, how will he respond to his suspension? We haven't
heard anything yet, but we'll take a look after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOSTER: Jimmy Kimmel returns to TV tonight, nearly a week after Disney pulled his late night talk show off air.
But not everyone will be able to tune in. Some ABC affiliated stations are still refusing to run the program. Kimmel was temporarily suspended over
comments he made following the death of conservative activist Charlie Kirk. Disney's decision prompted protests across the U.S. more than 400 artists,
including Hollywood A-listers, also signed a letter rebuking the suspension as an attack on free speech. Also, government interference.
What we don't know is how will Jimmy Kimmel address this controversy tonight?
Stephanie Elam is outside Kimmel's studio in Hollywood, where he'll soon be taping tonight's show.
It's extraordinary how this debate really sparked. I don't know, division, I guess, Stephanie, but ultimately it came down on Kimmel's side.
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: For now, I feel like we're not quite done. Max, with this one here. Obviously here in Hollywood, there is a lot
of love for Jimmy Kimmel. This is a man who is seen as someone who looks out for the smaller people who helped make Hollywood turn and run, so
there's a lot of love for him. Also, California is a big liberal state. So again, there's going to be a lot of support for free speech.
And so, we wanted to know what people were saying and thinking about that. And it is the middle of the week. Schools back in session. So, we found a
lot of people from other countries here on Hollywood Boulevard.
But we did find two Americans to talk to, to ask them what they fell out. A man from northern California and a woman from Tennessee. Take a listen to
what they said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's awesome. He's coming back. Hopefully, they don't hold him tight to what he feels he should say and not say, because
nobody should be told what they can and cannot say.
[15:25:05]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe what Jimmy Kimmel said was taken way out of context, and that I'm for Jimmy Kimmel returning on air.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ELAM: So, tonight, we do know that his guest will be Glen Powell and musician Sarah McLachlan. That's not supposed to be any of this political
discourse, but we do expect Jimmy Kimmel to address it in his monologue in the show that tapes here in a few hours. It's also worth noting that you
mentioned that those stations that are not going to air his show tonight. They represent about 20 percent of the ABC stations throughout the United
States.
So, it's a good chunk of the United States that will not be able to see the show tonight. And one of those companies, Nexstar, I just want to read you
a portion of their statement. They said they made the decision last week to preempt "Jimmy Kimmel Live!" following what ABC referred to as Mr. Kimmel's
ill-timed and insensitive comments at a critical time in our national discourse.
So, they're saying they stand by this decision. And so, they are going to show a news program instead of showing Jimmy Kimmel. Now, for people who
have streaming capabilities, they can go to Disney probably and see his show. But still, this shows you, Max, that is still very contentious and
that it is not done at all. At this point.
FOSTER: You talk about how the left were cheering him on. I guess the media industry were as well, broadly, weren't they? Because this was a test
about executive power over the media. Other networks, wondering how ABC, Disney will react and actually whether or not there might be some moves by
the Trump administration to take licenses away from networks that don't agree with the president.
ELAM: That is a huge part of the concern of why you see a lot of people speaking out, and some conservatives as well, speaking out about this,
because, again, this idea is not, you know, the 26th Amendment. It's the First Amendment in the United States that says that you have the right to
free speech.
So, it is noteworthy that we did hear from the chairman of the FCC, who was appointed by President Trump, Brendan Carr. He posted in part today, they
simply can't stand that local TV stations he's talking about Democrats for the first time in years, stood up to a national programmer and chose to
exercise their lawful right to preempt programming.
So, this whole brouhaha is far from done. And this is just the beginning with, Mr. Kimmel coming back on TV later today.
FOSTER: I'll be tuning in. I'm sure you will be as well. Stephanie, thank you so much. A moment in media history tonight.
Still to come, Donald Trump takes aim at the U.N. in a speech to world leaders. I'll be talking to a geopolitics analyst, Bobby Ghosh, all about
that. What he found interesting. There was a lot to pull out, after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:31:08]
FOSTER: A big change in language from President Trump on Ukraine. Let's hear the response of the Ukrainian president speaking in New York today
after he met with President Trump.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Yes. Big part, which we control. And of course, he trusts him. And when then he back to me, President Trump,
during phone conversations or dialogue. Yes, he always had a look to the -- in autumn, they will occupy. We need to do something and et cetera.
And then one by one, he understood. He understood that Putin is just sharing some information which is far away of real situation on the
battlefield, by the way of truth. And of course, then when he -- and now, now he trusts much more bigger to me, because to the information -- what --
my intelligence and my military guys, military cabinet shares with partners. And I think this is one of the moment.
The second is understandable that for example, in September, is it now? Yes. Good. Good news. Yes. In September, we now -- we the occupied it to
about 360 kilometers. But I mean, this -- and we control about 200 and 60 under our -- under I mean the in -- so-called so, so totally, it will be
about 400 kilometers.
It's not about number of kilometers. It means that if you are -- if you are winning, you give -- I mean, this or you can't back 400 kilometers, one
month. So, all such moments, you know, one moment, the second, then intelligent, then the sword (ph) and et cetera. So it all this has
influence on partners.
Europe is closer. And of course they are closer. That's why they are more (AUDIO GAP). The distance is short. Everybody afraid. You see the war. What
that will (AUDIO GAP) the war on different territories. And the same -- and today, President Trump agreed with me that I said he will not -- he will
not wait --
FOSTER: We've also got some problems there in New York, which is surprising with a signal. But we'll get you the highlights and bring them
to you.
Let's bring in Bobby Ghosh in the meantime, he's a columnist and geopolitics analyst, former senior editor at "Bloomberg".
Bobby, thank you so much for joining us.
I mean, there's been so much to take in today, hasn't there, at the UNGA, Donald Trump taking the headlines here. I mean, we were particularly
grabbed by how he's talking about, his approval effectively for shooting down Russian jets in NATO airspace. But also, we've had this post on truth
social talking about Ukraine being, getting back all of its territory.
I mean, what has grabbed you today?
BOBBY GHOSH, COLUMNIST & GEOPOLITICS ANALYST: Well, that is the big surprise. It's a 180 degree turn from what Trump, from what his vice
president, from what his defense secretary have been saying now for months and months and months. For a long time, their argument has been Ukraine
can't win this war. Ukraine is doomed to lose this war. And therefore, the smart play for Ukraine is to find some sort of a negotiated peace with
Russia.
Now, this is a -- as I said, a complete turnaround where he's saying Ukraine can actually win. Yeah, Russia is likely to lose. That's a big, big
-- that's not just an ordinary slight turn. That's a complete change of heart.
And you have to wonder what caused that change of heart, whether this is just some sort of elaborate negotiating tactic, a head fake in the
direction of Putin, or whether it is the sum total of a long period of realization, that Trump has been -- that Trump realizes that Putin's been
taking him for a ride, that the Europeans, in fact, have had some effect in their efforts to get the American president to change their mind.
[15:35:12]
FOSTER: Well, he certainly seems to be getting on with President Zelenskyy better, doesn't he?
Let's just bring up that post. It was a long post, but well just pull out one part of it just so you can break it down for us.
Yeah. So, there's the reference there. He's talking about the situation after seeing the economic trouble its causing Russia. I think Ukraine, with
the support of the European Union in its position to fight and win all of Ukraine back in its original form. So he's gone away, hasn't he, from this
idea that Ukraine is going to have to give up some of its land? So, what we're talking about here is Donald Trump's supporting Europe, pushing back
the front line back to the Russian border, which is going to absolutely. That's a red line, surely, for President Putin.
GHOSH: Yes. And when he says all of Ukraine in its original form, you have to wonder whether that includes Crimea.
FOSTER: Yeah.
GHOSH: That's certainly what the Ukrainians would like very much. And so, this is -- this is a big change. And you add to that the tone he took
during his meeting with President Zelenskyy about whether other NATO countries where Russian planes and drones have been basically crossing
national borders, whether those countries should shoot down Russian planes and drones. His response immediately was, yes, I think they should.
That's a big change of tone. And that's going to send, I think some shockwaves through Moscow, how seriously they choose to take it there,
whether they think of this as a -- as a ruse, as a bluff by Trump. We'll see over the next few days.
But for the moment, in the context of today's news cycle, that is a big, big surprise.
FOSTER: So, what we're looking for is Russia yet again, testing. This is how it's viewed, isn't it? They were testing NATO resolve. If they went
into NATO airspace.
They also argued they didn't technically go into airspace because this is a part of the route that they're allowed to use to get to their territory,
which is sort of sandwiched there between some of these eastern European countries. But if -- if it happens in one of those gray areas, let's say,
as Russia calls it, NATO shooting down a Russian jet because they're suggesting it won't be the drones. Would that be seen by Russia as an act
of war?
GHOSH: Well, Russia has history in this. This happened over Turkey, over Turkish airspace not that long ago, a few years ago, when the Turks shot
down a Russian plane. Of course, Turkey's response was immediately very apologetic. But Russia was prepared to overlook it.
Here, the stakes are higher. The language from the NATO countries, especially from Poland, again at the UNGA, was very strong and certainly
not -- didn't set up any kind of future apology. The language is quite, quite tough. And so, if Putin decides he still wants to test the resolve
and he finds that in that resolve is holding firm and that indeed the NATO countries are willing to take that ultimate step, which is to shoot down a
Russian plane, I don't think he should be expecting an apology for all of it.
FOSTER: No, but this is the difference, isn't it, with the Turkish incident? Because there's I think the general feeling is that that was a
mistake that a pilot made. And as you say, Turkey apologized. This isn't going to be the same.
GHOSH: Yes.
FOSTER: This is going to be a very clear, calculated decision to shoot down a Russian jet. And there won't be any apologies. So it's completely
different, isn't it?
GHOSH: Exactly.
Yes, it is. And the language leading up to this is I mean, let's hope that does not come to it. You don't want a flashpoint over -- over NATO
airspace. And it's not good for anybody. But if -- but the Russians can be under no misapprehensions now.
The NATO countries, particularly Poland. But others have made it very clear what they're going to do. The American president has given his backing to
that action. Russia is out of excuses. And this notion that, well, it was a gray area and it was not really airspace, that excuse is very hard to pull
off these days. There's a lot of -- there are lots of ways to demonstrate where exactly a plane was.
Russia will always deny it. But the in the court of international opinion, I think the -- the international opinion is being primed and prepared for
this eventuality.
FOSTER: Okay. Bobby Ghosh, thank you so much for that.
We'll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:42:48]
FOSTER: With the U.N. General Assembly getting underway in New York, across town, a massive operation with Secret Service, state and local
agencies has uncovered 300 SIM servers, 100,000 SIM cards capable of crippling cell phone towers and emergency services in the New York area.
The unit was chasing a series of swatting threats when it found the powerful maze of electronics across numerous locations, including in
Connecticut and New Jersey.
All of it within 35 miles of the U.N. General Assembly meeting that's now underway.
Joining us now from New York, CNNs chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst, John Miller.
First of all, all credit to law enforcement for finding this, unraveling it. But what was it for, do you think?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, that is the big question. What was it for and who was behind it? I mean,
Max, when you look at the idea that they had a infrastructure that they had built in these storage areas, empty apartments, empty office buildings, SIM
card servers, they had the power to essentially overwhelm cellular communications in a city of 8.6 million people, during a time when the
leadership of 90 percent of the globe's population, kings, presidents, queens, prime ministers were all with a ten -- within a ten block radius at
the U.N. General Assembly.
So, when we asked who was behind it, the answer the Secret Service had is they don't know. But when we asked them, well, who could they tell was
using it? Special agent in charge Matt McCool gave us some very interesting information. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT MCCOOL, SECRET SERVICE SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: So what we do know is that foreign governments and criminals located in the United States are
using this network to run their organizations. That includes cartels. That includes human traffickers. That includes terrorists are on this network.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MILLER: So that brings us to your original question, Max, with this, which is, okay, so we know who was operating using encrypted communications,
making swatting calls moving human traffickers, all that.
But who owns this system? Is it a nation state? Is it an intelligence service? Is it a hacker group? And so far, the answer to that is still up
in the air, Max.
FOSTER: But presumably that state actor line is something they're looking at just because of the nature of the event that's taking place where you
are.
MILLER: So I've been talking to intelligence sources about just that, and I've been told, you know, what are the clues they see and what they see is
they see communications moving across this network between Chinese military officials from the PLA and communications with cartel bosses in Mexico. So
you've got a lot of forces that are crossing at the intersection of this communication, and you have something that is built to be more than just
something that would be used by simply hackers or people doing swatting calls.
This network has a purpose. It has a very interesting crowd. And right now, with no one in custody, it's an ongoing investigation.
FOSTER: Okay. John Miller, as ever, thank you so much for your insights on that extraordinary find.
Now, the U.N. General Assembly has led to gridlock on the streets as French President Emmanuel Macron found out. Even world leaders aren't immune to
traffic jams.
Saskya Vandoorne explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SASKYA VANDOORNE, CNN PARIS BUREAU CHIEF: Traffic during the U.N. General Assembly can be brutal, even for presidents.
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT: If you don't see, let me cross.
VANDOORNE: Emmanuel Macron suddenly found himself in a very awkward, very New York situation, stranded on the sidewalk.
POLICEMAN: I'm sorry, Mr. President. I'm really sorry. Just that everything is in frozen right now.
VANDOORNE: Why? Because President Donald Trump's motorcade had the street on lockdown.
POLICEMAN: There's a motorcade coming right now. That's why. I'm sorry.
VANDOORNE: So, Macron picked up the phone and called the man apparently responsible for the gridlock.
MACRON: Guess what? I'm waiting in the street because everything is frozen for you.
VANDOORNE: Eventually, the barricades opened, but only for pedestrians.
So the French president had to keep the call going while walking to the embassy.
And if that wasn't unusual enough, a bystander grabbed the chance for a quick kiss with the French president instead.
MACRON: No, no, it's okay, guys.
VANDOORNE: Saskya Vandoorne, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: What can you say?
And now, we've heard some fairly apocalyptic rhetoric from world leaders recently. If you believe some users on TikTok, though, the actual
apocalypse is actually coming, and it could be today, if not tomorrow. We'll explain next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:50:10]
FOSTER: An important date for your diaries today or possibly tomorrow, marks the day of the impending rapture. At least that's what a trending
topic on TikTok claims, after a pastor in South Africa claimed that the biblical end of days was on its way. Many thousands of TikTok posts are
confidently predicting that it will come on either Tuesday or Wednesday. And while some users may be taking it seriously, many others are taking the
news in their stride, asking whether they should sell their car or if their pets will be going with them, too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are ready for the rapture. I don't know if you guys know this, but these girls are definitely being beamed straight to
heaven.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: So what we want to know is what makes the rapture such a trending topic on TikTok.
Joining us now, Dr. Elaine Kasket, a professor of the Center for Death and Society at the University of Bath in England.
Thank you so much for joining us.
I mean, really just starting there. It seems completely absurd. But people are -- are they having fun with it or are they taking it seriously?
DR. ELAINE KASKET, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF BATH CENTER FOR DEATH AND SOCIETY: Well, I mean, there's a group of people who are sharing and
responding to it because its attention grabbing material that provokes a strong reaction. But people are also playing this for kind of end of the
world prediction for humor as well. So, the online trend speaks to a number of groups, both the true believers and the jokesters and the curious
scrollers who just kind of stop because it's an interesting and unusual story.
FOSTER: But we tracked it back to a YouTube video from a pastor who just said he had a vision.
KASKET: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that in times of global uncertainty, like the ones we're living through, many of us feel almost constantly
unsettled and anxious about what we're seeing on TV and in our online news and social media feeds. And for some, all of that intensity and uncertainty
can fuel apocalyptic speculation.
FOSTER: Because they -- because they're catastrophizing, because there's so much chaos in the world and gloom?
KASKET: Well, for people from certain religious backgrounds that are more likely to interpret both natural and current events as signs of the world
as we know it, some might even find this comforting, like it all makes sense. I have some control. I feel like I can get ready for what's coming,
and in the midst of all this apparent chaos, I understand what's happening. I can make a plan.
FOSTER: I was reading how some psychologists are talking about rapture, anxiety. They're talking about religious trauma linked to growing up with
constant fear of being left behind and childhood panic attacks when they couldn't find their parents or feeling guilty every day when they felt they
weren't good enough to go. I mean, do you think that's just, you know, certainly not speaking to everyone, but do you think there's an element of
that?
KASKET: Well, I'm not an expert in particular religious traditions like the one that you're describing. But yeah, childhood experiences like that,
that involve really scary things about being taken up or being separated from ones parents in particular. I mean, that can be a really traumatic
thing for a child who isn't in a good place developmentally yet to be able to assess the likelihood of that situation or to understand.
So, yeah, a lot of us carry this childhood baggage of scary things with us, and that could be playing a factor. Of course.
FOSTER: It's an interesting thing with social media, isn't it, though, because once you sort of watch one of these videos, then another one
appears and then over a period of days you've watched lots of them, and you might have thought it was ridiculous to begin with, but you sort of end up
questioning, oh, maybe it will happen because it's just -- we're living this chaotic life. We're half watching, but it's amazing how many people
have got caught up with it for that reason.
KASKET: Well, our brains are really wired to look for patterns and connections to pay more attention to emotionally charged content. So if
there's emotionally charged news items or post which the algorithms do cluster together, if those are showing up at the same time, we might come
to assume some kind of connection even when they're completely unrelated.
And of course, we're also in these echo chambers. Pretty much all of us are. We're surrounded by like-minded people who are available to confirm or
validate our suspicions or beliefs, or we're talking about the same things were getting this repetition that we're being fed. So all of these things
combine together to make things seem more persuasive. After a while. If people who are like us also seem to be talking about the rapture and taking
it seriously, then that starts to feel more persuasive for us.
FOSTER: People are talking about death as well. I mean, this is something that you study and talk about all the time, and presumably you're of the
view that people don't think about it enough or they think about it in the wrong way. So, is there an element of, you know, some therapy here that
people should be thinking about actually?
[15:55:00]
KASKET: Well, I mean, I think that we consume death as entertainment or something that were fascinated by or interested in all the time. But when
it comes to the prospect of our own deaths or indeed the end of the world, that we as we know it, which is on a much grander scale, of course, that
latter thing is something that very few of us are really existentially equipped to be able to think about coherently.
But, I mean, the algorithms are feeding us these days, so much that undermines our sense of safety and coherence in the world that I think a
lot of us are feeling kind of much shakier. And yeah, that, you know, and it makes the end of the world stories feel suddenly like something that we
should be giving some credence to. But that's something that the human brain is pretty ill-prepared to confront.
FOSTER: It's quite big. Dr. Elaine Kasket, really appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll see what happens tonight or
tomorrow night.
I'm Max Foster. That's WHAT WE KNOW.
I'll be back with "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" after the break.
END
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