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What We Know with Max Foster

Fury In Israel Over Limited Release of Hostage Remains; Trump: "Phase Two" Of Gaza Ceasefire Deal Underway; Donald Trump & Kash Patel To Speak At White House; NATO Defense Leaders Hold Summit On Russia; Sources: At Least One U.S. Boat Strike Targeted Colombians. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired October 15, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:43]

MAX FOSTER, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Israel awaits more bodies of hostages this hour.

This is WHAT WE KNOW.

Any time now, we're expecting Hamas to hand over the bodies of two more deceased Israeli hostages. Only eight bodies have been returned from Gaza

so far. But after a forensic examination, Israel says one of them is not one of the hostages. Israeli mourners gathered today for the -- for this

funeral procession for one of the slain captives.

Now, Israelis are furious that Hamas hasn't handed over all of the fallen hostages yet. Israel has assessed for months that Hamas may not be able to

find some of them in the vast destruction, but it's vowing it won't rest until all of them come home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHOSH BEDROSIAN, ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPOKESPERSON: We stand clear when we say this: Hamas, the terror organization, is required to uphold its

commitments to the mediators and return all of our hostages as part of the implementation of this agreement. We will not compromise on this, and we

will spare no effort until our fallen hostages return, every last one of them. Hamas agreed to release all 48 of our hostages in phase one and made

the specific confirmation to President Trump. And we are expecting to see the terror organization uphold their side of this agreement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Meanwhile, Gaza's health ministry says 16 more bodies have been found in the rubble as recovery efforts continue after the war. Thousands

of Palestinians are believed still buried underneath buildings demolished by Israeli attacks. Nasser Hospital, meanwhile, is reporting disturbing

findings on the bodies of 90 Palestinians returned by Israel. It says their hands and legs were cuffed. Some had signs of gunshot wounds and others

appeared to be run over by tanks.

Concerns are growing over the security situation in Gaza as Hamas battles with rival groups after the fragile ceasefire took hold. Hamas is now

calling on Palestinians to hand over collaborators who helped Israel or else face what they call the strict hand of justice.

Oren Liebermann reports on an apparent public execution. We warn you, the images are very disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: In the immediate aftermath of the ceasefire in Gaza, Hamas has quickly reemerged and is reasserting its

power in Gaza over parts of the decimated territory not occupied by Israel.

Video shared widely on social media and confirmed by CNN, show Hamas members carrying out execution-style killings on the streets of Gaza City.

We have to warn you, these images are graphic, and CNN is not showing the videos in full. This is the moment the Hamas gunmen opened fire with eight

Palestinians on their knees. They appear to be blindfolded.

Seconds later, they are dead, their bodies lying on the ground. The so- called Palestinian resistance factions, which include Hamas, praised the killings, calling them a, quote, security campaign against mercenaries,

bandits and anyone they see as cooperating with the, quote, "Zionist" enemy. They called on Palestinians to report what they called wanted

individuals and anyone helping them.

This is Hamas attempting to show its back in control in Gaza and eliminating any opposition. After the videos came to light, a prominent

family in Gaza, the Doghmush family, said Hamas had killed nearly 30 of their family members after they were told they would be treated fairly if

they surrendered. They say the fate of many other family members is unknown. The Doghmush family denied working with Israel and said Israeli

forces had killed hundreds of relatives over the last two years.

During the war, we saw several unprecedented protests against Hamas in Gaza. Now it appears they're working to quash any more acts of defiance.

The Palestinian Authority in the occupied West Bank condemned the killings as heinous crimes, which claimed the lives of dozens of citizens outside

the framework of the law and without fair trials. A Palestinian rights group, the Independent Commission for Human Rights, said the wave of

summary executions without trial cannot be justified under any circumstances. Such acts constitute grave legal and moral crimes that

require urgent condemnation and accountability.

Oren Liebermann, CNN, in Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Let's go to CNN's Jeremy Diamond, who's in Tel Aviv, for us with the latest on the return, Jeremy, of the deceased hostages.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. That's right.

Well, we've just learned from the Israeli military that the Red Cross is on its way to a meeting point inside the Gaza Strip, where it will meet Hamas

militants there and receive additional bodies of deceased hostages. There is some disagreement over exactly how many bodies of hostages will actually

be returned tonight. Israeli officials earlier on had told us that they were expecting four or five bodies to return. But we've also heard from

Hamas's al-Qassam brigades, the military wing of Hamas, that they will be returning two additional bodies of hostages.

And this comes as the issue of Hamas returning bodies of hostages has become quite controversial here in Israel, because we've seen that Hamas in

the last two days has only returned the bodies of seven hostages. They returned eight bodies altogether. But one of those bodies, after DNA

testing, proved not to be the body of an Israeli hostage, according to Israeli officials.

And so, as a result of that, what we've seen is that Israel has taken measures to counter what Hamas is doing. The slow rolling of the release of

these bodies, as Israel sees it, releasing only half of the planned aid trucks into the Gaza Strip today that were expected. We were talking about,

you know, 600 trucks of aid per day that were supposed to start surging into Gaza. Only 300 trucks, according to an Israeli official, were allowed

into Gaza today. And what seems to be a clear, direct retaliation for Hamas not releasing enough bodies of hostages.

But we've heard also today from the United Nations relief chief emphasizing that Israel needs to do more to allow aid into Gaza and should not be using

humanitarian aid to civilians in Gaza as a bargaining chip in these negotiations -- Max.

FOSTER: Hamas suggesting they need specialist equipment in order to find more bodies. You know, where does Israel stand on that?

DIAMOND: Well, we do know that an international committee is being set up to assist in the finding of some of these additional bodies, but it's kind

of two issues. It's on the one hand, there are some bodies that Hamas signals it does not know the location of. And then there is the issue of

the difficulty in retrieving some of these bodies that may be under the rubble of buildings that were struck by the Israeli military.

And we know that in the past, Israel has allowed very limited heavy equipment into Gaza, to the point that there are not just the bodies of

these hostages, but the bodies of an estimated at least 10,000 Palestinians who were killed in this war in Gaza, still remaining under the rubble.

And so, that heavy equipment simply hasn't flowed into Gaza yet in the numbers that are required. And so, that is also -- appears to be a factor

that is slowing things down, both in terms of retrieving some of those bodies of Israeli hostages, but also for Palestinians to find the bodies of

their loved ones.

Already, some 250 have been recovered, but again, the estimates were talking about more than 10,000 in Gaza altogether.

FOSTER: Jeremy in Tel Aviv, thank you.

Let's go to Kevin Liptak now in Washington, because we've just heard from President Trump speaking to our Jake Tapper, Kevin.

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yeah. And it's clear that the president and other officials inside the White House are watching

what's happening in Gaza, very, very closely, really looking for any signs that this agreement that the president has spent the last several days

trumpeting, including on that whirlwind trip to the Middle East, looking for any evidence that that could be cracking.

And I think what you hear from the president as he's speaking to Jake Tapper is someone who remains very confident that this will hold. The

president says, quote, "what's going on with Hamas that will be straightened out very quickly." And then when it comes to this question of

the deceased bodies, of the hostages that have not made it out of Gaza yet, the president very much trying to emphasize what a victory it was to get

those 20 living hostages out, saying, getting those 20 hostages out was paramount.

And so, you see the president there continuing to try and proclaim the successes of this deal so far, even as he acknowledges that there is some

straightening out in his words, that needs to be done with Hamas in order for this to be a sustained peace in the strip.

Now, the other question that I think a lot of officials had when this was announced is whether or not Hamas would disarm. That was one of the

components of the 20-point peace plan that the president presented, that all sides seem to agree to the first phase of. But there was an

acknowledgment that that would be one of the major difficulties going forward.

And what the president has said in this phone interview with Jake Tapper is pretty striking. He says if Hamas refuses to disarm, quote, "I think about

it," quote, "Israel will return to those streets as soon as I say the word. If Israel could go in and knock the crap out of them, they'd do that."

And so, the president suggesting that if Hamas does not uphold this commitment to disarm, that essentially the war could resume, that Israel

could go back in and continue battling this group.

[15:10:00]

You know, the president had been very eager to say that the war was over. You heard him repeat that over and over again during his trip to the Middle

East. But now here, the president suggesting that if Hamas doesn't agree to some of the components of this peace plan, that in fact, Israel would go

back in.

Now, this is somewhat different from what we heard from the president yesterday, which is that the U.S. could potentially go in and, quote,

"violently disarm Hamas." But I still think it's evident that the president has been thinking about these contingencies and thinking about the

potential that not all points of his plan are going to necessarily be easy to uphold, as the second phase of this now comes into negotiation.

FOSTER: Okay, Kevin, thank you so much for that.

Meanwhile, we're watching the White House closely this hour where President Donald Trump and FBI Director Kash Patel will soon be holding a press

conference. CNN has learned Patel is expected to talk about national crime statistics.

President Trump has increasingly turned to law enforcement to fulfill his political agenda. He sent troops into U.S. cities, he says, to crack down

on crime empowered immigration authorities as well, to ramp up deportations and ordered the Justice Department to go after his political enemies.

But after months of slow burning controversies at the FBI, there have been growing concerns over the leadership of Director Patel, of course.

CNN's chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller is with me.

Have you got any sense of what he's going to say about these crime figures, John?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, we didn't get much of a preview, but, Max, what I would suggest is that they

are probably going to talk about the wind down of Operation Summer Heat. This was an initiative that involved the National Guard, but also involved

FBI, the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the key federal agency that goes after guns in the hands of criminals, U.S. Marshals, Homeland Security

Investigations, a wide array of organizations that have been dropped as task forces into major U.S. cities that have been experiencing challenges

and crime.

To frame this, you know, crime was at its pretty much all time lowest in U.S. major cities around 2015 to 2018, 2019. With the pandemic that started

to soar and what they've been trying to reach is can they get back to those pre-pandemic numbers? You know, when you look at the cities that have been

plagued by crime, New Orleans, Memphis, St. Louis, Baltimore, Washington, D.C. which never feels comfortable when your nation's capital is one of

those places.

But in Summer Heat, they have deployed federal agents to Tampa with 129 arrests, Memphis with 377, Richmond with 122 arrests. Chicago, and they

have been focused on getting dangerous, violent criminals, but also getting guns off the streets.

So, I think what well hear is a lot about what they feel they've accomplished in terms of numbers that will that will result in reductions

in crime.

FOSTER: How comfortable is Kash Patel in his position? He's obviously got a lot of support from Donald Trump, but not from the lower ranks, as I

understand it.

MILLER: Well, Kash Patel is struggling to maintain -- to obtain respect within the FBI, an agency that he took over with less experience than most

past FBI directors. Maybe any and where he fired many key executives and then many regular street agents were doing nothing wrong other than having

worked on investigations that had something to do with Donald Trump. So, within the agency, he's not popular.

The other struggle is, you know, how does he establish that credibility with police chiefs and other law enforcement executives across the United

States? And I believe what the White House is trying to do here is to show the FBI's efforts under his leadership in the first seven months to burnish

his credentials and say he is an actual, credible player.

FOSTER: Okay. John, it'll be interesting. We'll be back with you, I'm sure, for analysis after we've had that press conference. Thanks for joining us.

Now, NATO defense ministers are vowing to ramp up pressure on Russia and step up military support for Ukraine. During a meeting in Brussels today,

they pledged to buy more American made weapons. That's on top of the $2 billion worth of military equipment they've already committed to.

The NATO summit comes ahead of a planned visit by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to the White House on Friday.

NATO's chief Mark Rutte says he's hopeful.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: I can assure you that we are very happy about the meeting taking place. The fact that the American president,

Trump, and the president of Ukraine are working so closely together. Of course, we are supporting Ukraine wherever we can. I, myself, am in

constant contact with President Zelenskyy and President Trump.

[15:15:03]

So, I think it is very good that they have that meeting on Friday because in the end, what we need to achieve is to make sure that Putin gets to the

table, that meaningful negotiations start and that we bring this terrible war to an end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Let's get more on this now from Fred Pleitgen. He's in berlin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Both NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte and the U.S. Secretary of War Pete Hegseth

have praised NATO member states for increasing their defense spending and pledging to do that. They say that this is important in two major ways. On

the one hand, it obviously increases NATO member states capabilities and then allows them to contribute more to common defense.

But Pete Hegseth says it's also important in terms of helping Ukraine and trying to end the conflict between Ukraine and Russia. One of the things

that he's talking about is an initiative called PURL, which essentially has European and other NATO member states buying U.S. weapons and then giving

those weapons to Ukraine.

Now, Pete Hegseth said that that spending also counts against defense spending of NATO member states, and he's calling for more of it. Here's

what he had to say.

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. SECRETARY OF WAR: All countries need to translate goals into guns, commitments into capabilities and pledges into power. That's all

that matters, hard power. It's the only thing belligerents actually respect. Your continued investment in leadership are vital to helping

Ukraine defend itself, and to bring an end to this conflict. Peace through strength.

PLEITGEN: Now, the NATO secretary general also said that while initially NATO member states had signed on to the PURL program, as of the summit on

Wednesday, it was half of NATO member states who had made commitments.

Now, another topic that was not officially on the agenda but still loomed large, was Ukraine possibly receiving U.S. Tomahawk cruise missiles from

the Trump administration. There is, of course, set to be a meeting between President Trump and Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy in the White

House on Friday, where that could be a topic, and asked about this, the NATO secretary general, Mark Rutte, said that he couldn't really comment

directly because this was a bilateral issue between the United States and Ukraine.

Also, the NATO member states, of course, right now dealing with flaring tensions between NATO and Russia after several incursions by Russian

aircraft and drones on to NATO territory.

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, berlin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: And we will, of course, follow that meeting closely for you on Friday. We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:20:48]

FOSTER: We have an update on ten of the freed hostages who are being treated at the Sheba Medical Center, which is Israel's largest hospital.

The center's vice president says all of them are in, quote, stable condition, though the long healing process is only just beginning. Take a

listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ITAL PESSACH, VICE PRESIDENT, SHEBA HOSPITAL: I'm happy to report that they are all in stable condition while I cannot share more specific

details, we remember that every one of them has endured untold adversity and horrors, and therefore, the road for their recovery is going to be a

very long one. They will probably need weeks, months and maybe years to heal. But they are finally taking their first steps to return to life here

at Sheba Medical Center.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: So, what we want to know is how can the returned hostages recover from their ordeal?

Joining me now, Einat Yehene. She is the head of rehabilitation at the Israeli Hostages and Missing Families Forum and has supported various

hostage families.

Thank you so much for joining us.

And this is really, I guess, where your -- where your work begins, right? Because after that initial elation of being released, they've now got to

come to terms with another new life for them.

EINAT YEHENE, HEAD OF REHABILITATION, HOSTAGES AND MISSING FAMILIES FORUM: Yeah. Well, actually to be honest, Max, this is a very difficult day for us

because we are gradually landing after the euphoric beginning of the releases and the implementation of this peace agreement. But two days

after, we also got the very limited number of the deceased hostages and after the forensic identification two of them were brought to burial.

In addition, and simultaneously, we are starting to learn gradually, as much as families and returning hostages are willing to expose and they are

not supposed to expose it or disclose it at this stage. Really, the wounds and the torture and the inhuman conditions, which are really beyond

imagination.

And I have to say that in this very day, where we are exposed to the psychological terror with respect to what is happening with the deceased

hostages and the psychological terror and the horrible stories from captivity, and also seeing how Hamas is actually executing citizens from

Gaza. This is really overwhelming. And I have to say that the entire public in Israel is really in a state of limbo. Again, not knowing exactly how

sure and safe we can be with respect to the implementation of this peace process and going back to speak about the rehabilitation of the hostages,

we were really hoping that those who are coming out of captivity will not need this time at least to go and advocate and fight for their brothers and

sisters that they left behind.

And unfortunately, this deal and I think that President Trump made it very clear that it should be one deal that includes all the 48 hostages to

finish this. You know unprecedented ordeal, will not become a sequential one where you first have and we are very happy. And it's a miracle they are

here. But when you first have the living ones and leave behind the deceased.

This is a torment for the families. And they deserve to have their loved one back.

FOSTER: So, you're saying it's very difficult for the hostages to begin their recovery process until they know that all the hostages families are

at least at peace, that they're, you know, the bodies are all back as well.

YEHENE: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying. I think that over the last two years, I have accompanied many of them. And this is also

something we have written in our reports at the health division and the recovery of them was on hold because the trauma of the mass kidnapping,

because, you know, it's already a community of hostages.

[15:25:07]

And the solidarity and even, you know, biological brothers and sisters and psychological family members, they are all united. And this is part of it.

So they couldn't really immerse themselves in the rehabilitation process because they felt responsible. And the separations in captivity. And the

survivors' guilt, which came across not only with the returning hostages, but also with respect to the rehabilitation of the families and the

families of the deceased also deserve rehabilitation, and the entire public.

FOSTER: Yeah. How are you supporting someone who has watched and I'm sure is elated to see the hostages come back, but isn't able to mourn themselves

properly until the bodies of their family members and friends are back. And without even knowing whether they'll ever be back.

YEHENE: Yeah, I think that this is something that I've accompanied our therapeutic work and also, findings in research, that this is only a part -

- a part -- they are partly immersed in this process. I mean, you work on the individual level, and we are used, you know, as trauma expert to

process individual experiences of trauma. But this private and personal experience is really entangled with the collective experience.

So, you know, you shift from the personal to the collective and it always affects. And I think that the same went to working with people from the

public who are not immediate family members of hostages, but also experienced this trauma. And they talk about their own personal life

difficulties. But at the same time, all the time, the reality is sinking into the therapeutic room and everything is entangled.

So, for us, the complete healing cannot really happen until we have the last hostage. And I have to say that, you know, even concepts like moral

injury, psychological terror, lack of responsibility, et cetera. Really became a prominent concept in the therapeutic room, in the sense of

abandonment.

And for the families of the deceased hostages, this is like the third abandonment. Number one, abandonment was on day of October 7th, which

something that is so inconceivable happened kidnapping civilians from their beds and taking them.

Number two was the trauma of captivity, prolonged one. And I think that the abandonment in the way that the how the hostages crisis unfolded and that

it took too long and now in this part, when loved ones are not being returned to burial, this is something that really leave their families and

the entire community and society in a frozen grief.

FOSTER: Well, our thoughts are with you as you carry out your work and all the people that you work with as well. It's -- I don't know, you know,

quite how you do it.

Einat Yehene, thank you so much for joining us.

We'll be back in just a moment.

YEHENE: Thank you, Max.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:32:20]

FOSTER: Sources briefed by the Pentagon say the U.S. military deliberately targeted a boat in the Caribbean carrying Colombians in a strike over the

last two months. The U.S. has carried out at least five strikes on separate boats in the Caribbean, alleging they were trafficking drugs. Earlier this

month, the White House denied claims from Colombia's president that a vessel struck was from Colombia.

Natasha Bertrand is with me.

This really speaks to the fear many people have in that region that this could escalate effectively, Natasha.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, it really seems like the administration has a very broad definition of narco

terrorist group, of these drug cartels, and no one really knows for sure who is on that list of drug traffickers that the administration has deemed

eligible. In other words, to be targeted by these U.S. military strikes. But what we're learning is that at least one of those strikes that was

carried out on September 19th was targeting Colombians in a boat that actually left from Colombia.

That's significant because unlike Venezuela, which the U.S. has long considered kind of a rogue regime led by Nicolas Maduro, there, the

Colombian government and Colombia in general, over several, several years has been considered a close partner of the United States in economic and

security cooperation. And so, this does mark somewhat of a new phase in the U.S. military's operation. It suggests that the military operation is much

wider than previously believed. It's not only targeting Venezuelans, perhaps with ties to Tren de Aragua, that criminal organization that are

based there.

And, you know, we're also told that the administration is relying in large part for these targeting decisions on a Justice Department opinion that

gives the president extremely broad authority to determine who poses a threat to the United States and whether the U.S. is actually in an armed

conflict with these narco terror groups that the administration has deemed terrorist organizations.

So, all of this together really paints a picture of a U.S. presence in the Caribbean that's only expanding. But at the same time is still very

secretive. And the White House told us that it's going to continue to target these groups as it sees fit -- Max.

FOSTER: Okay, Natasha, fascinating. Thank you.

It's the final moments of trade on Wall Street. The stocks are trading largely flat. It's been something of a rollercoaster, though, for the Dow.

This is our business breakout. Journalists have been turning in their press passes at the pentagon after the defense department imposed sweeping new

restrictions on reporters.

[15:35:00]

The Pentagon insists journalists sign a pledge not to use or obtain any unauthorized information in their reporting. Almost every media outlet,

including CNN, has refused to sign up to the Pentagon's demands.

A crucial program for lower income U.S. families just got a lifeline. The women, infants and children program, or WIC, has received $300 million to

keep the food assistance program afloat during the U.S. government shutdown. The money is coming from tariff revenue. WIC helps nearly 7

million pregnant women, new mothers and young children.

ChatGPT users will soon be able to see erotic content on the app from December, verified users will be able to generate more explicit content.

OpeAI's Sam Altman says the move is an attempt to, quote, treat adult users like adults.

A new type of scam is targeting consumer bank accounts in a very modern way. In this new version, consumers are being told to deposit cash into

crypto ATMs.

CNN's Kyung Lah investigates how the scam happens and how the scammer tried to steal money from her.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no, no, no.

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You are watching a victim get scammed. One of thousands of Americans caught in a

growing global crime spree that's no secret to police.

POLICE OFFICER: This is the Police Department.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't care.

LAH (voice-over): Or even store clerks.

STORE CLERK: A lot of people have been scammed recently.

LAH (voice-over): From Georgia.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody on the internet, some scam caller told him to do this.

LAH (voice-over): To Massachusetts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did they tell you to do?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Take $31,000.00 out and then put it into a Bitcoin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh no.

LAH (voice-over): Texas.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know there's an elderly lady feeding thousands of dollars into the cryptocurrency machine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please, I have the bank on the phone and I'm in danger. This is Chase Bank.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. No, you're not, ma'am.

LAH (voice-over): And Ohio.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much money have you already sent to them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's $10,700.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus Christ, oh man.

LAH (voice-over): I even talked to one of these scammers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to withdraw $9,500 from your account.

LAH (voice-over): And you'll see how he tried to steal 10 grand.

LAH: This is a scam. You know it and I know it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why does it seem like? Am I talking to the reporter?

LAH (voice-over): In all of these cases, these machines called crypto ATMs become the getaway car for the scammers who prey on victims like Gus Cason.

CASON: After I stepped in $100 bills, it would prompt you for everything that come up and I had him on the phone, too.

LAH: Had you ever seen this before?

CASON: Never been here before. Never been here after.

LAH (voice-over): Just outside Cedar Rapids, Iowa is where Gus Cason calls home. Aged 71, a retired union worker and super fan of the band Nickelback.

Two years ago, as he was recovering from a stroke.

CASON: I got a phone call. Well, he told me he was President of the bank. I said, now you tell me. I want you to swear that you're not a scam. I swear

I'm not a scam and all that. He convinced me he was good. He was good. I just had a stroke. I wasn't thinking right at all.

LAH (voice-over): The scammer told Gus that he would be arrested unless he withdrew $15,000.00 in cash and deposited it in that crypto ATM. It looks

like a normal ATM, but a crypto ATM is different, put in cash and it converts it into cryptocurrency in an instant.

Victims like Gus have lost about $240 million so far this year, says the FBI. Double the pace of last year.

CASON: I should have known better. I should have known better. I was stupid enough, I fell for it.

LAH (voice-over): The scammer took off with Gus' cash in the form of cryptocurrency. But the crypto ATM company also made money from the

transaction.

Our investigation found the companies that operate crypto ATMs profit off the fees and markups, often at 20 to 30 percent that they charge on

transactions, scam or legit. And when police have seized the scammed cash out of the ATMs, the crypto ATM companies hit back hard in court to get

that cash back, which is what happened to Gus Cason.

CHAD COLSTON, LINN COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE, IOWA: This is our evidence processing room.

LAH (voice-over): Major Chad Colston and his deputies at the Linn County Sheriff's Office managed to recover the $15,000 in cash that Gus had put

into that crypto ATM as evidence in a crime.

LAH: How confident were you that the victim would get that money back after you took it out of the machine?

COLSTON: So we were very confident.

LAH (voice-over): His confidence was short lived.

Bitcoin Depot, the company with the most crypto ATMs in the U.S. fought in court to get the $15,000 back. The company points out its machines, like

many crypto ATMs have multiple on screen warnings, alerts of scams and requires that customers agree that they're only sending money to their own

accounts. So in court, Bitcoin Depot won.

COLSTON: We ended up getting a communication from Bitcoin Depot. They said it was a glorious day, gentlemen, when can we come get our money? Which was

our victim's money.

[15:40:00]

A multi-million dollar company is overjoyed that they get $15,000 and our victim is, you know, hurting. I mean, that's their life savings.

LAH (voice-over): Bitcoin Depot has used tough tactics to stop police from seizing money for evidence like threats to immediately litigate or

suspending fee refunds in entire states of a single officer tries to seize cash.

Bitcoin Depot even sent an Amazon gift to mock one police department, a copy of the U.S. Constitution, with a note calling the seizure of a scam

victim's money a Fourth Amendment violation.

After we reached out to Bitcoin Depot about these messages to police, the company told us the messages were unacceptable and the employee responsible

is no longer with Bitcoin Depot.

LAH: What do you think, Gus, that everybody seemed to get money, but you who saved that money?

CASON: You know, Bitcoin had no business getting that money at all. I mean, really, when especially when it's a scam.

LAH: Do you think that's fair?

CASON: Well, hell no.

LAH (voice-over): Lawsuits from attorneys general accuse the top three crypto ATM firms of profiting from scams and not protecting customers.

Iowa's A.G. -- more than half of all money taken in by Bitcoin Depot in Iowa over three years came from scams. Washington, D.C.'s A.G. -- at least

93 percent of deposits over several months from Athena Bitcoin machines came from scams.

Athena Bitcoin tells CNN it strongly disputes the allegations in the complaint and says it has strong safeguards against fraud.

Bitcoin Depot tells us, "We do not profit from scams, and the vast majority of our customers use our kiosks for lawful purposes." The company adds, if

it can't stop the transaction, it reviews every potential scam case individually for possible fee relief or refunds.

But we spoke to nearly a dozen victims who were tricked by scammers while using Bitcoin Depot machines, and only one said she got a fee refund.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Kyung Lah there reporting for us.

Still to come, visas denied the U.S. State Department revokes visas from some people who criticized Charlie Kirk after his death. But is the move

legal?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:23]

FOSTER: This just in. Hamas says it has now handed over the bodies of all of the hostages that it can access in Gaza. It transferred two more bodies

to the Red Cross in Gaza city just a short while ago. Hamas says significant efforts and special equipment are needed to recover the

remaining bodies. It\s returned just nine of 28 deceased hostages so far.

The U.S. State Department has revoked the visas of at least six people who they say celebrated the death of right-wing activist Charlie Kirk in online

posts. Charlie Kirk, the founder of Turning Point USA, was assassinated last month at a college campus in Utah.

The department cited a number of posts it says led to visas being denied or revoked. Here's one example they gave. A Mexican national said that Kirk

denied being a racist. He died being a misogynist and stated that there are people who deserve to die. There are people who would make the world better

off dead. Visa revoked.

Kylie Atwood has been monitoring developments for us.

Kylie, certainly no one would condone the celebration of someone's death, but was it always as clear cut as that? Or were there some representations

from people who were just against Kirk's views?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, we don't really know the extent of these visa revocations at this moment. What we do know is

that according to the State Department, there are at least six people whose visas were revoked because of nature of what they said about Charlie Kirk

and the nature of his death condemning his death and the like.

We're still waiting to hear from the State Department, if those six individuals are the totality of the visas that were revoked, and, of

course, some more of what they said, but also how many people at the State Department are working on this effort? We heard from Secretary of State

Marco Rubio just previously before this announcement came that the department was going to be looking at what was said on social media about

the death of Charlie Kirk and would be denying the visas of people who applied for U.S. visas if they had, in his words, been making comments that

attempted to, you know, make fun of or condemn his death in any way.

So, we know that this was a focus of the State Department. But the fact that they have moved to revoke some of these visas is quite a significant

step. According to -- this was put out by the State Department Twitter yesterday. There was one Argentine national who said that Kirk devoted his

entire life spreading racist, xenophobic, misogynistic rhetoric and deserves to burn in hell. So that is just the example of some of the

language that led to these revocations.

And of course, we should note that there are lawyers who are focused on individual rights, who say that the administration should not be taking

actions like this, that only go after individuals for freedom of speech and what they say in the public eye, not necessarily actions they've taken that

follow that.

FOSTER: But it gets very confusing, doesn't it? About what freedom of speech means. Because on the administration side, they're saying there are

clearly limits to freedom of speech. And there are people on the other side, presumably, who are saying, you know, we should be able to say what

we weren't want, particularly about a controversial figure who invited debate.

ATWOOD: That's exactly right. I think it's a wonderful point that Charlie Kirk was often engaged in debate with people on the other side, people who

didn't like his opinions. He still wanted to talk to them about what his opinions are and what their opinions were, and really engage in that

dialogue.

But the State Department is making the case that people who come to the United States are not here to create problems and to speak out against

people in a way that could be seen as you know, potentially aggressive in any way.

FOSTER: Okay. Kylie Atwood, thank you for joining us with that. A significant move in how things are playing out in America.

We'll be back with some more thoughts in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:52:05]

FOSTER: The winner of this year's Nobel Peace Prize, Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Corina Machado, has told CNN that she believes her country is

at a critical turning point. The Nobel Committee said Machado was awarded the peace prize for her struggle to achieve a just and peaceful transition

from dictatorship to democracy.

Speaking to CNN's Christiane Amanpour whilst in hiding, Machado said Venezuela is more unified than ever when it comes to wanting change.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA CORINA MACHADO, NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER: And this is a difficult moment, but I am absolutely convinced that we are finally at the threshold

of freedom and democracy, because finally, all vectors have aligned and the regime is weaker than ever, Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Can I ask you? Do you ever feel fear? You don't sound it, you don't look it. But there must be a

huge amount of pressure. That's one question.

And the related question is how do you lead a movement from the shadows? And do you think the opposition is now even more united?

MACHADO: Oh, certainly. Our country is more united than ever. You know, I dare to say there's no other society in our region. Perhaps in the world as

cohesive as Venezuelan society. I mean, think about this, 90 percent of our population wants the same, not only maduro to go, but we want our children

back home. We want a country in which we can live with dignity, in which we are equal in the face of the law. In a country in which you can speak out,

in which you can work with solidarity and generosity, we have tear down the barriers Chavismo had built to divide our society.

I mean, Venezuela has no religious tensions, racial differences, regional differences, economic or social. I mean, that's why I insist that this is

going to be even though a great challenge, because the country has been devastated economically and institutionally. And turned into a, you know,

the criminal hub of the region, this is going to be an orderly transition because that's what the people want, and in the center is the people. So

that's my answer to you and I have so much trust in the Venezuelan people that I know this will have huge impact in the region, Christiane. Cuba and

Nicaragua will fall as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Kenya's former prime minister Raila Odinga has died at the age of 80. He held that office from 2008 to 2013, and also served as a pivotal

leader in Kenyan politics for decades. His work as a pro-democracy activist led to important political reforms, including multi-party democracy and a

new constitution. Crowds of mourners took to the streets in the Kenyan capital to pay tribute.

[15:55:00]

One woman told CNN's Larry Madowo that Odinga had shaped the legacy of the entire African continent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRENDA AMBITHO, MOURNER: I'm here today because Baba has made an impact in our lives as Kenyans, as East Africans and as African general. He's been

the father of democracy and as Kenyans, we are enjoying freedom because of Baba. So today, I'm here because Raila is down and it's so painful.

LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So when you heard that he had died, you had to come to his home to mourn with the people here?

AMBITHO: I actually left my work and come right here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Finally tonight, this spooky shot of a rare brown hyena has won the Wildlife Photographer of the Year Award from London's natural history

museum. The picture, entitled Ghost Town Visitor, was captured by South African photographer Wim van den Heever in a ghost town in Namibia. The

photographer says the image is the product of ten years of work using camera trap technology.

I'm Max Foster. That is WHAT WE KNOW.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" up next.

END

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