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What We Know with Max Foster

Trump Says He'll Meet Putin In Hungary, Doesn't Specify Date; Ukraine Seeking U.S.-Made Tomahawk Missiles; Anger Grows In Israel Over Missing Deceased Hostages; Sources: DOJ To Ask Grand Jury To Indict Bolton; Venezuela Condemns U.S. Military Actions, CIA Operation; U.S. Senate Vote Fails On Republican Funding Bill; Politico: Hateful Messages Sent By Some Young Republicans. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired October 16, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:31]

MAX FOSTER, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin will meet again.

This is WHAT WE KNOW.

As Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy heads to Washington, U.S. President Donald Trump says he will soon meet with the Russian president,

Vladimir Putin, as well in Budapest, Hungary. The announcement comes after what Mr. Trump called a lengthy conversation today with his Russian

counterpart. A date for the meeting hasn't been announced.

Mr. Zelensky, who is scheduled at the White House on Friday, is expected to push for additional long-range weapons. Sources have told CNN the White

House may have shifted its strategy in trying to broker a ceasefire that may entail intel and approval of long-range strikes against targets deeper

within Russia.

The White House says a meeting between President Putin and Zelenskyy is still on the table.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think he thinks it's possible and he would, of course, love to see that happen. But right now,

there were discussions and plans are now being made for the Russian side. And our folks, led by Secretary of State Marco Rubio, to meet, and then for

President Putin and President Trump to perhaps meet again. But I don't think the president has closed the door on that at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Jeff Zzeleny is in Washington for us.

Lots of people saying the last meeting between the two didn't work out for the U.S. It worked better for Putin, but this is another chance, I guess,

to get some progress on the U.S. side.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Max, it is. But I think this meeting as well will be one that we shall see if it actually

happens, because yes, it is something that Vladimir Putin would like to have happened. But you have to really ask yourself, without Zelensky at the

meeting, what exactly would the point of another U.S. Russia meeting be? But we shall see.

Of course, this is all coming on. The timing of this is very interesting. This is all coming. This phone call, which were told lasted about two hours

or so between the U.S. president and the Russian president. It's coming a day before Volodymyr Zelensky is coming back to the White House tomorrow to

meet with President Trump.

So, suddenly, it seems that Vladimir Putin was interested in having a long phone call with President Trump earlier today here to talk about a meeting.

But it's been so many weeks and months since that summit in Alaska, which you'll remember right after that, president Trump in the White House were

saying that there would be a meeting with Zelenskyy and Putin. Of course, the Kremlin had no interest in ever holding a meeting with Zelenskyy.

So, this has certainly seems that, it could be an exercise into trying to buy more time, if you will hear the president of -- the U.S. president has

been exasperated by what he's been seeing with Vladimir Putin. Not much cooperation, not an end to the war. So, look, any talk of a meeting, I

guess is a sign of progress. But we shall see if that develops.

But again, a Trump Putin meeting can only go so far. Zelenskyy has to be a part of that conversation. And as of now, there are no plans for that kind

of meeting.

FOSTER: So, what does this mean for tomorrow in the meeting with Zelenskyy? Because there was talk about a switch in strategy, which is effectively to

go on the offensive against Russia more deeply.

ZELENY: There were, you know, in the U.S., President Donald Trump has said that we have a lot of Tomahawks. And of course, that is something that

Zelenskyy would very much want, more firepower from the U.S. if -- if you will.

So, it certainly sets the table for likely some changes at the meeting tomorrow, because it puts in President Trump's mind that, oh, that Vladimir

Putin and Russia may be more interested in ending this war. So, it kind of creates a different mindset. I think going into the meeting, it certainly

softens President Trump's view, which really had been growing a bit harsher, really a sense of disappointment that Vladimir Putin had not sort

of come around to his side on this.

So, we'll see how the meeting unfolds tomorrow. But we know the last person who talks to President Trump is often in his head as he's going into the

next meeting. So that, of course, was the reason for that phone call today between Putin and Trump.

FOSTER: Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much.

Let's bring in Matthew Chance in Moscow.

What was the readout from your end, then, Matthew?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, yeah, I mean, there's been a -- there's been a kremlin readout that they were obviously

very happy with this call. They said it was very businesslike and constructive. And speaking of it in very positive terms.

And I think they mentioned that it was president Trump who mentioned Budapest first, and then President Putin immediately agreed to that.

[15:05:04]

And I think that's because that President Putin knows very well that, you know, the prospect of sort of a peace deal or the prospect of engagement

with the Russian leader is something that President Trump is prepared to sort of almost put all things, everything else to the side in order to

achieve. Although, of course, we know from bitter experience that summits between these two presidents doesn't necessarily end in anything in terms

of tangible results. It wasn't that long ago it was in august, in fact, when there was this first meeting of Trump's second term between Putin and

himself in Alaska, and that didn't result in anything in terms of tangible results. And so, it's very possible that there could be a similar outcome

here in Budapest.

I mean, what makes me think that is that, you know, going into this, this phone call, which was 2-1/2 hours long, it was one of two phone calls the

Kremlin said between the two leaders that has lasted more than two hours. So, it was significant. President Putin has not indicated in any way that

he's prepared to change any of his core objectives when it comes to the conflict in Ukraine. He's still got territorial ambitions. He's still

basically is looking to, you know, kind of overturn, the Ukrainian state or null and void it as a -- as a -- as a national entity.

And there's been no indication that that that is going to change. This was, as Jeff was saying, there clearly an attempt, potentially a successful

attempt by the Kremlin to intervene and to try and, you know, deter President Trump from making extraordinarily large military commitments to

Ukraine in the forthcoming meeting with President Zelenskyy in the White House tomorrow.

FOSTER: The Tomahawks, that's particularly sensitive, presumably. I mean, what would be the reaction if that was agreed tomorrow?

CHANCE: Well, it's interesting because in the -- in the readout or the post, at least from, from President Trump on his Truth Social media

platform, he didn't mention Tomahawks, but the Russians certainly did. They said that President Putin sort of spoke about Tomahawk cruise missiles to

President Trump. These were, of course, long-range, U.S. weapons that would have the capability if they were deployed to Ukraine to hit big Russian

cities like Moscow and Saint Petersburg, where millions of Russians live. They'd also have the ability to give Ukraine the ability to strike even

harder at energy infrastructure installations across Russia, at least across the European part of Russia.

And so, there would be a significant weapon but apparently, President Trump, according to the Kremlin, told President Putin, told President

Trump, I'm getting my presidents mixed up there a bit, that the cruise missiles would have no impact on the battlefield, but they would have an

impact between the United States and Russia. And this is something that President Putin has been talking about quite a lot publicly. And other

Russian officials as well. They're saying that the Russian military could handle the Tomahawk threat, but it would be seen as a massive, major

escalation on the part of the United States if they were to supply these missiles to Ukraine.

And so, I think probably from the kremlin point of view, Putin making that point to Trump will give him sort of further pause, to consider whether or

not giving Tomahawk cruise missiles to Ukraine at this stage is the right thing for him to do. And he's already expressed some questioning about

whether he was going to do that or not. It was never a firm commitment. He was always saying things like, well, maybe I will, maybe I won't.

Well, of course, the Kremlin hopes that he won't. And this was an intended. This was intended, I think, to try -- and try and get him to sort of

consolidate him in that view.

FOSTER: Okay. Matthew Chance in Moscow, thank you.

Meanwhile, President Trump has aimed another violent warning at Hamas shortly after his call with President Putin. Mr. Trump posted if Hamas

continues to keep killing people in Gaza, we will have no choice but to go in and kill them.

On Wednesday, he told our Jake Tapper that he would consider allowing Israel to resume military action in Gaza if Hamas doesn't keep to the terms

of the ceasefire deal. Earlier in the week, he had said he wasn't bothered by Hamas killing what he called gangs.

Now in Gaza, a further 30 deceased Palestinians have been returned to the shattered enclave. Video shows the international Red Cross transporting the

bodies. Gaza's health ministry says some of them, quote, show signs of abuse. CNN has reached out to Israeli authorities about that claim. It's

not clear how or when the Palestinians died.

And as Gaza lies in ruins, anger grows in Israel over the deceased hostages who haven't been returned to them. Hamas says it can't get to them in the

rubble. A member of Israels parliament is demanding the government stop all aid going into Gaza.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond says he's hearing aid is getting through, despite the dispute over the deceased hostages.

[15:10:07]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, U.S. and Israeli officials now tell me that Israel is allowing the quantities of aid into

Gaza that are required under the ceasefire agreement despite this dispute over the number of remains of deceased hostages that Hamas is releasing. We

have been told on Wednesday that Israel was only allowing half the number of aid trucks required into Gaza, just 300 of the 600 required as a

retaliation for Hamas releasing too few bodies of these deceased hostages.

But it turns out that Israel on Wednesday actually allowed some 700 trucks of aid into Gaza, according to internal numbers from COGAT, obtained by

CNN. COGAT is this Israeli authority that coordinates the entry of aid into the Gaza Strip. And so, what we're seeing is that there's a difference

between some of the public rhetoric that is coming out about this ceasefire agreement and the disputes that are happening, and the reality that is

actually happening on the ground.

That doesn't mean that this ceasefire agreement doesn't remain fragile and quite tenuous. There's no question that there are some real disagreements

here over the number of bodies that Hamas has released from the Gaza strip. In fact, Israeli officials have submitted information to the United States

about the remains of other deceased hostages that they believe Hamas knows about, despite the fact that Hamas has said that they have released all of

the remains of deceased hostages that they know about, or that they can access, it seems that it's clear that one of the issues here is Hamas's

ability to actually access those remains of deceased hostages in Gaza, and that's why senior U.S. advisers have told us that they actually believe

that Hamas is complying with the ceasefire agreement right now, and that conditions on the ground are making it harder for them to release

additional bodies.

There are Turkish and Egyptian teams that are going to be working in Gaza to try and retrieve some of those additional bodies, which appear to be

under the rubble of buildings struck by the Israeli military over the course of this war. And this is not just an issue for the remains of those

deceased hostages. It's also an issue about the bodies of Palestinian civilians, thousands of which are estimated to also be under the rubble in

Gaza. And it underscores the very, very long road ahead for Gaza's recovery and for us to really get a sense of the true death toll of this two year

long war.

Now, as it relates to those aid quantities, even as Israel is stepping up the amount of aid getting into Gaza, there's no question that the needs are

enormous. Everything from food to shelter to medicine. And it will take weeks very likely for the situation in Gaza to stabilize. And many

hundreds, thousands, even of aid trucks to enter before that happens.

Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Tel Aviv.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: We're expecting the U.S. Justice Department to ask a grand jury to indict President Trump's former national security advisor, John Bolton.

That is, according to multiple sources, speaking to CNN. Bolton has been under investigation for the alleged unlawful handling of classified

information. Sources say the case centers around notes that Bolton made to himself in an AOL email account.

Katelyn Polantz is in Washington, D.C. with the latest.

But you're not getting much information, are you, even about the charges?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Not yet, Max, but we do know a fair bit about this case, because Bolton, his office, his home,

they were both searched less than two months ago. And there are court records available from that that teed up exactly what investigators were

looking at. The possible mishandling of classified records, and also the possible keeping of national defense information in an unsecured way. Those

were the two possible charges that prosecutors at that time told a court that was the reason they wanted to do those searches at his home and

office.

And now, less than two months later, we do know that a top prosecutor on this investigation is over at the federal courthouse in Maryland and that

they are expected to ask a federal grand jury to look at this indictment and approve possible charges for John Bolton.

Now, in those searches, there were documents removed from his office as well as his home. Some of the documents from the office even had markings

on them that indicated they may be classified. Things like the word "secret" at the top of a heading, things like headers. That said, weapons

of mass destruction information or information about travel memos. That was secret. That all could become part of the case.

But we also know from sources that in this case, prosecutors have looked at for some time the fact that Bolton was using an AOL email account and that

account, he was making notes about what he was doing in his time as the national security advisor in the Trump White House. So, the first Trump

presidency.

Exactly what this will entail. If there is an indictment approved today by the grand jury, we will have to see. But it does appear to be a very

serious investigation that has gone on for some time.

[15:15:03]

Though. Max, that doesn't mean the Justice Department may make decisions here that will make things very difficult for John Bolton, a former high-

ranking government official. We are waiting to see whether he would be arrested if he is indicted, or if he would be asked just to come to court

like other recent people who have been charged by the Trump administration, James Comey and Tish James.

FOSTER: We'll be watching. Katelyn, thank you so much.

An Illinois judge says she has serious concerns over whether the Trump administration is following her order when it comes to violent clashes with

anti-ICE protesters in Chicago. District Court Judge Sarah Ellis had first blocked law enforcement agents from targeting journalists and using tear

gas on anyone who didn't impose an immediate threat to safety. Now, she says she's really not happy after lawyers highlighted at least two

incidents in which agents appeared not to follow her order. She's now requiring all federal agents who have body cameras to have them on during

encounters with protesters.

Venezuela's president has hit back at the U.S. as tensions between the two countries escalate. President Trump says he has authorized the CIA to

operate inside Venezuela to clamp down on illegal flows of migrants and drugs.

Speaking on national television, Nicolas Maduro urged the U.S. to seek peace, not war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICOLAS MADURO, VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT (through translator): No to regime change, which reminds us so much of the endless failed wars in Afghanistan,

Iraq, Libya and so on. No to CIA orchestrated coup d'etat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Now, since September, the U.S. has struck at least five boats in the Caribbean alleged to be trafficking drugs.

Venezuelan opposition leader and Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Corina Machado has called for greater U.S. support to stop what she described as a

war on her country by President Maduro.

Speaking to our Christiane Amanpour, Machado said Mr. Trump -- Mr. Maduro's government was supported by criminal activities including drug trafficking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA CORINA MACHADO, NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER: Venezuela right now is a safe haven where Hezbollah, Hamas, the drug cartels, the Colombian

guerrilla operate freely and they are part of this liaison with our regime. And what we have done, the Venezuelan people, as I said, is already

mandated regime change. We want and we need help to enforce that decision. And that help comes in terms of applying, enforcing the law, cutting those

flows that come from these criminal activities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Natasha Bertrand is with me now and we know, don't we, that Machado spoke to President Trump after she got the Nobel Prize.

I mean, is there a potential alliance there?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Max, look, I mean, she said that she was accepting it and dedicating at least some of it

to him. That was clearly an attempt at forging some kind of relationship, because in some ways, their goals here might be aligned. President Trump

has said in the past that he believes that Maduro is an illegitimate leader. There are clearly signs that the U.S. is considering conducting

some kind of pressure, at least on his regime. As we heard the president say, he is now authorized the CIA to conduct activities inside of

Venezuela.

Now, what we don't know at this point is whether that includes regime change activities. But of course, the CIA has a very long history of

conducting those kinds of operations in Latin America. And we are told that that authorization that President Trump gave the CIA earlier this year

includes things like covert action and lethal targeting inside Venezuela, and also around Latin America writ large.

Now, that could be a part of an effort to combat the drug cartels and to narrowly focus on traffickers and drug labs, for example, and give the CIA

a greater leeway to perhaps carry out operations against those entities. But it's also undeniable. And according to our reporting as well, that the

administration has clearly been weighing, strikes inside Venezuela as a way to pressure maduro and potentially to get people around him to convince him

to step down.

So I do think that we are potentially in the early stages of that, just given the massive military buildup in the Caribbean, given the CIA

authorizations, clearly there is something broader going on here, which is something that experts agree with as well than just a military campaign to

strike a few speedboats operating in the Caribbean carrying drugs towards the United States, Max.

FOSTER: When Maduro talks about Donald Trump seeking -- potentially seeking war or implying that, we're not talking about any sort of conflict, are we

there, or any unity around the idea of a conflict about these countries that Trump is targeting here?

[15:20:02]

BERTRAND: I think that this administration is very, very wary of getting entangled in an actual ground conflict in Venezuela. I think that if

anything, with the assets that they currently have in place, including the warships that are currently in the Caribbean, they could conduct land

strikes on targets inside Venezuela from a distance.

And that is something that President Trump himself hinted at yesterday. Tomahawk missiles, for example, which are on board these destroyers that

are stationed in the Caribbean, they have a range of about 1,000 miles. They could easily hit targets inside Venezuela, but the U.S. military does

not have the necessary presence right now in terms of just sheer number of troops to actually conduct a successful land invasion into Venezuela,

capture territory and force regime change in that way.

So, I don't think we are at the point right now where we can expect that kind of full scale conflict. But I do think that it is increasingly on the

minds of President Trump and the people around him about how they can escalate even more to try to pressure Maduro to step aside, Max.

FOSTER: Natasha, thank you so much.

Coming up, a new report details messages filled with bigotry sent by members of the Young Republicans. Details after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: The U.S. government is at a stalemate -- excuse me -- at a stalemate. It's now being shut down for 16 days and counting. A short-term

proposal backed by the Republican Party failed Thursday afternoon. The bill would have funded the government through to November the 21st. The proposal

didn't address the Democrats' health care demands.

The shutdown will now extend into at least next week, as senators are leaving town with no further votes expected until Monday.

Now, as the government shutdown drags on, Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez held a town hall here on CNN. That

was on Wednesday.

[15:25:01]

The 90-minute question and answer illustrated just how far apart Democrats and Republicans are from resolving their differences, especially regarding

healthcare. Both lawmakers say they want to offer health care for all Americans, not just their own party.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): We are Americans. What do you think? I would feel okay if somebody in a Republican state died because they couldn't get

health care?

I would hope not. I would hope nobody feels that way.

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): And I think it also speaks to a big difference between someone like Trump and someone like me, or someone like

Bernie, which is that Trump believes that if you don't vote for him, he doesn't have to be your leader. That if you didn't vote for him, that you

don't deserve good things to happen to you.

I don't care if someone voted for me or not. I don't care if someone is a Republican or an independent or a Democrat. I don't care if someone likes

me or not. That will never change the fact that I'm going to fight for them to have health care. I want MAGA to have health care.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Well, the shutdown is topic number one on Capitol Hill right now.

There is also plenty of chatter about racist and antisemitic messages inside the Republican Party. "Politico" gained access to thousands of

inflammatory and violent messages exchanged by prominent members of the Young Republicans.

Tom Foreman has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Calling Black Americans monkeys, watermelon people, and the N-word, flinging homophobic and bigoted

slurs, dark jokes about gas chambers and rape for opponents, even praise for Adolf Hitler.

"Politico" says it found hundreds of examples in seven months of online chats between branch leaders of the Young Republican National Federation in

four states, mostly men, but including at least one woman.

The national group's quick response, "We are appalled by the vile inexcusable language. Such behavior is disgraceful, unbecoming of any

Republican, and stands in direct opposition to the values our movement represents."

Top Democrats want more.

GOV. KATHY HOCHUL, (D-NY): Kick them out of the party, take away their official roles, stop using them as campaign advisers. There needs to be

consequences. This bullshit has to stop.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Four people have reportedly lost their jobs, and two have apologized, but the potential political damage remains.

For years, the GOP has fought accusations it too easily embraces favored status for white Americans, is too cozy with white supremacist, and too

often makes excuses for bigoted behavior. To be sure, President Donald Trump has spoken up against all that.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In one voice, our nation must condemn racism, bigotry, and white supremacy.

FOREMAN (voice-over): But he also frequently invokes imagery and insults many consider patently and purposely offensive.

TRUMP: Pocahontas. Pocahontas.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Vice President J.D. Vance responded to the fresh scandal with a dose of what about, citing violent language in a text by a

Democratic contender for Attorney General in Virginia.

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I really don't want us to grow up in a country where a kid telling a stupid joke, telling a very

offensive, stupid joke is cause to ruin their lives.

FOREMAN (voice-over): The ages of all those on the text chains are unknown, but the Young Republicans Group is for 18 to 40 year olds.

KRISTIN DAVISON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think the vice president could have really used this moment as a learning moment, encouraging these young

men and women to denounce what they've said, to move on and be better.

FOREMAN: It is not entirely clear how Politico obtain these text chains, but this is clear. These were young Republicans eager to move up in their

party. And based upon their own words, they did not think that this would get in the way.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Well, still to come, Donald Trump says he'll meet with Vladimir Putin in Hungary soon. But will it lead to peace in Ukraine?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:33:08]

FOSTER: U.S. President Donald Trump says he will soon meet Russia's president Vladimir Putin in Budapest for the second time in a matter of

months. No date has been set, though, for the meeting just yet. The two spoke on the phone earlier, a call Mr. Trump described as a very productive

one. In a post on his Truth Social, Donald Trump said high level delegates from both countries will meet next week before Trump meets Putin in

Hungary. Mr. Trump says he hopes the meeting will help end, quote, "this inglorious war between Russia and Ukraine".

The U.S. president will host Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy at the White House tomorrow.

So, what we want to know is can this Budapest meeting really succeed where the Alaska one clearly failed?

Joining me now is Fabrice Pothier, CEO of Rasmussen Global and former director of policy planning at NATO.

Thanks so much for joining us.

FABRICE POTHIER, CEO, RASMUSSEN GLOBAL: Thank you for having me.

FOSTER: We're hearing from our correspondent earlier that he's not even sure this meeting is going to happen. This is all part of the optics around

tomorrow's meeting with Zelenskyy. What do you think?

POTHIER: Well, I think this is a very skilled, preemptive, diplomatic strike by Vladimir Putin where yet again, he moves in quite at the last

minute when the pressure was building up, both on the potential Tomahawk or long-range cruise missile delivery and more sanctions and more political

support for Ukraine. So yet again, we see, like we saw before the Anchorage summit, Vladimir Putin that is resorting to a preemptive diplomatic strike

to avoid having that pressure build up on him and to constrain him in his campaign against Ukraine.

FOSTER: Obviously, Donald Trump had huge success banging heads together effectively in the Middle East, and he's just off the back of that.

Obviously, a lot of expectancy that he could do something similar here.

[15:35:04]

But Russia just doesn't work in the same way, does it?

POTHIER: Well, it does respond to pressure and firmness. We've seen that in the past. And look, every time the United States and the U.S. president are

talking about a significant weapons delivery, are talking about new sanctions, you do see, the Russian diplomacy is trying to scramble for

solutions. So, I do think strength and pressure do work.

But the problem is that you have to be persistent in applying them and what you're seeing with this response by Donald Trump to his two hour-long phone

call with Vladimir Putin, is that yet again, Donald Trump fell for Putin's charm and Putin's manipulation. And yet again, now he puts Ukraine and

Russia at an equivalent level, talks about a war between Ukraine and Russia. No, this is Russia's war against Ukraine.

So, we are again, back to where we were in the early summer, and that plays into the hands of Vladimir Putin.

FOSTER: Vladimir Putin has made it clear that giving Tomahawk missiles, long distance missiles to Ukraine would be a massive escalation. Trump

didn't talk about that, did he, in his Truth Social posts today. But there was talk earlier in the week that he would allow Ukraine to use U.S.

missiles.

POTHIER: Yes. I mean, this is part also of the diplomacy of firmness. So, I think it's fine for Donald Trump to threaten to deliver long range cruise

missiles to Ukraine. But the problem is that every time he -- again, mentions more pressure, politics, either sanctions or weapons, Putin comes

in and offers him a diplomatic platform. That was the case with the Alaska summit. And it could be well, the case with the Budapest summit. And every

time, again, Putin and Trump kind of try to talk about everything else but Ukraine. And then it gained basically, Putin managed to earn six, three

more months to carry on his campaign against Ukraine.

FOSTER: What about the idea that we're going to see Vladimir Putin in an E.U. country in the E.U.? Which is, you know, greatest nemesis in many

ways? That's going to be a win in itself, isn't it?

POTHIER: Well, yes, I think you're right. And as the same with the Anchorage summit, which was also a big win from an optical point of view

for a Russian president under International Criminal court sanction, under international sanctions, basically being invited on the U.S. territory. So,

Hungary is probably the closest political territory to Vladimir Putins Russia. This is the sad reality in today's Europe.

So, he's going to be almost like at home with Viktor Orban being almost an authoritarian leader, in the E.U. So, I think it indeed plays in his favor,

but we have to see what the outcome of we should not completely dismiss diplomacy provided yet again, that Donald Trump is willing to exert real

pressure. The lesson from Alaska -- from the Alaska summit is you have to apply the pressure before not just threaten pressure, but apply pressure,

and then you can start having a meaningful diplomatic conversation with Vladimir Putin.

If you just threaten, he will actually use the summit to get you to de- escalate your rhetoric. And then again, he will buy three, six more months to carry on his campaign of terror against Ukraine.

FOSTER: Fabrice Pothier, I really appreciate your time tonight. Thank you for joining us on the program.

POTHIER: Thank you.

FOSTER: It is the final moments of trade on Wall Street. Stocks are lower. It's been a pretty volatile few days for U.S. markets.

This is our business breakout.

J.P. Morgan boss Jamie Dimon is warning of what he calls cockroaches in the U.S. economy, he told analysts on a call that risky portfolios will only

become more apparent in an economic downturn. His comments follow a string of bankruptcies that have blindsided Wall Street.

Nestle is cutting 16,000 jobs worldwide over the next two years. The world's largest food company says its working to slash costs and increase

its focus on, quote, operational efficiency, including through automation.

One of the United States' best known supermarkets is being sued over its peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Smucker is suing Trader Joe's, alleging

that the grocery chain's new frozen sandwiches are too similar to its Uncrustables. Smucker wants a judge to force Trader Joe's to deliver all

products and packaging to Smucker to be destroyed.

[15:40:00]

Now, with new trends coming and going on social media, our perception of beauty standards is constantly changing. One of those latest trends is

pushing men to achieve intense beauty standards.

CNN's Clare Duffy spoke to one journalist about looksmaxxing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARE DUFFY, CNN TECH REPORTER: Women often face the lion's share of pressure when it comes to our physical appearance. But do men also have to

navigate the sort of algorithmically promoted standards for beauty or looks?

ELISE HU, JOURNALIST, AUTHOR OF "FLAWLESS": Oh, more and more so too, especially because men are spending so much time online, right? There's the

trend on TikTok of looksmaxxing, and that's looksmaxxing for dudes. And it's a lot of emphasis on muscles and just getting really cut or lean or

swole, whatever the bodily trend is. But it tends to be like very little body fat and a lot of muscle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're most certainly pumped.

HU: And then there's a lot of pressure on their jawline. And the jawline is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As the king of looksmaxxing culture, here are five tips for you to get my chiseled jawline.

HU: And so, all of us come under the technological gaze.

DUFFY: We define that how you think about what that is.

HU: The technological gaze or the artificial gaze is how were performing for the machine. So it's the idea of doing it for the algorithm and

internalizing what the algorithm sends us, and then wanting to do what seems to be most engaging.

It's a self-policing gaze. It's very narcissistic, and it posits our bodies as projects. You could end up having to work on your body forever. And so,

it's quite exhausting as well.

DUFFY: What do you see in the future for A.I. and beauty? Where do you think this is all going?

HU: I worry we're in a body augmentation arms race, because if we are chasing cyborgian standards of beauty, then the limit does not exist,

right? We only have to do more and continually change ourselves more often and at faster rates, and stay kind of forever smooth, forever somewhere

between the age of 18 and 35.

DUFFY: Something that you talk about in your book is the distinction between self-care and actual care.

HU: Yeah. Self-care, has really kind of lost meaning as a term because it's so overused and it's so like baked into consumerist ideals, right? Like

bath bombs and getting facials and things that are indulgent and feel good but require spending money.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, today, we're going self-care shopping.

HU: And what I'd really love to return to is a kind of self-care that is soul driven rather than ego driven. So, for me, I kind of ask myself often

before I get a product or try out a procedure or whatever it is, am I doing this because it's a deeper step into myself? Or am I doing this because I'm

looking over my shoulder and I'm comparing myself to other people, and I'm trying to keep up.

So, it's like the feeling after you exercise and work out, not because you're trying to get lean or whatever. That feeling can be a deeper step

into yourself. I want to be clear that I'm not about giving up the things that make us feel good every once in a while. I just do think that there is

an overemphasis on our appearances as our whole sense of self.

And so, I think that we really need to do the work of separating our bodies and who we are and what they look like from what our worth and value is, as

human beings.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Still to come, a conspiracy theory is catching up the U.S. Health and Human Services Department a bit. And why some believe the chemtrails

rumors despite scientific evidence to the contrary.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:47:00]

FOSTER: Now started as a conspiracy theory, but now the concept of so- called chemtrails is gaining enough traction that U.S. Health and Human Services could be looking into it. It's all to do with airplane vapor

trails, with some positing that they contain toxic substances, poisoning people in the environment. It's a theory scientists have debunked, but many

within the Trump administration are convinced, including the HHS head, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

Joining me now, Stephanie Armor, senior correspondent at KFF Health, who's been reporting on this story. And you've seen a memo.

STEPHANIE ARMOUR, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, KFF HEALTH: Yes, that's correct, Max. There is an internal memo that we obtained that shows that, HHS is

quite seriously looking into this theory in terms of both toxins from airplane -- commercial airplanes as well as weather airplanes or other

devices are being used to control the weather or to control the earth's climate. And this from the individuals we talked with, the plans are to

create a task force to look into this, and appoint a special government employee who will lead this and then make some federal recommendations.

FOSTER: But there's a difference, isn't there, between testing whether or not there's an issue with vapor trails. I know all the science says there

isn't, but they might be a legitimate case, I guess, to look into that. But it's the idea of looking at the intent that they are deliberately being put

up there to poison people below.

ARMOUR: Yeah, well, it's a -- it's a really good question. And what's really interesting about this theory is there's some kernels of truth,

right? Like the point that airplanes have contrails which are water vapor in the sky. That is true. The idea that they are releasing toxins that will

poison the land and human health is not accurate, according to the scientists we talked to.

Similarly, yes, there have been some experiments done to look at what we could do to alter the earth's climate to combat global warming. But it's

very much in the research stage. There's nothing intentionally underway. And even efforts to manipulate weather, that's very localized, nothing that

can cause like a hurricane, which is what many of the adherents believe is actually taking place.

And that's what is so interesting about this memo is that it takes it from what these grains of truth are, to sort of more outlandish, you know,

someone is intentionally doing this and what you see up in the sky is nefarious. And, that's where we're seeing the federal government look right

now here.

FOSTER: Why do you think they're legitimizing a conspiracy theory with no evidence?

ARMOUR: Well, I think that there's a strong contingent here in the United States that goes by this theory of make America healthy again.

[15:50:01]

And this is a group of sort of medical freedom iconoclasts. They're very much opposed to traditional medicine, and they seem to have really grasped

onto this concept as something that is real. And it's gone so far that you've now seen two dozen states introduce legislation to ban weather

manipulation and climate control which and the lawmakers, you know, while they were introducing these bills, talk about chemtrails.

So, you're seeing this not just at the highest levels of federal government, but also from Republicans at the state level. And it's actually

shaping public policy here in the U.S.

FOSTER: Extraordinary.

Stephanie Armour, thank you. Great story. Thanks for bringing it to us.

ARMOUR: Thank you.

FOSTER: Still to come, violence breaks out as thousands of mourners gather to remember Raila Odinga.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:53:26]

FOSTER: Local media in Kenya report, four people have been killed after huge crowds gathered to view the body of the country's former prime

minister.

You can see here, there the police firing shots to disperse thousands of mourners who gathered at a stadium in Nairobi to see the body of former

Prime Minister Raila Odinga. The country's observing a seven-day period of national mourning for the late prime minister, who died in India on

Wednesday.

Here's CNN's Larry Madowo with more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: After a delay of nearly five hours and a venue change, Kenyans were finally able to pay their respects and view the

body of former Prime Minister Raila Odinga. That event was moved to Kasarani. That is the largest stadium the city has. After crowds

overwhelmed the airport as his body arrived from India and the parliament buildings, where the initial public viewing should have happened, police

fired in the air to disperse mourners at Kasarani Stadium as the procession made its way in there and fired teargas as well inside the stadium, leading

to some reported casualties inside that stadium.

Raila Odinga's family say he wanted to be buried within 72 hours, and so the Kenyan government has announced an abbreviated schedule. Friday has

been declared a national holiday. That's the day of the state funeral for Raila Odinga.

There will be another viewing of his body in Kisumu, in the western city and then burial on Sunday. That is to respect the wishes of the family, to

honor this man who occupied a central part of Kenyan politics for the better part of three decades.

[15:55:08]

He became one of the most recognizable figures in African politics. One of the biggest defenders of democracy of his generation, and his sudden death

shocking the nation and the continent. Many dignitaries expected at the state funeral Friday in Nairobi.

Larry Madowo, CNN, Nairobi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: And finally tonight --

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

FOSTER: One of the world's oldest sports. Taking London by storm. Look at those crowds. More than 40 of Japan's elite sumo wrestlers are bringing

1,500 years of tradition to the Royal Albert Hall for the grand sumo tournament. It's the first sumo championship to be held in the U.K. in

decades. The tournament wraps up on Sunday, but it's not all about competing. The wrestlers blew off some steam in London, visiting some of

the city's iconic landmarks. Which ones that then?

I'm Max Foster. That's WHAT WE KNOW.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.

END

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